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Looking for Seph vs. Jenova info, help appreciated.

Ravynne Nevyrmore

that one Lucrecia fangirl
AKA
Ravynne
So I'm having that age old discussion with someone on DA about whether Sephiroth controlled Jenova or Jenova controlled Sephiroth. I know the new compilation material reveals that Sephiroth was controlling Jenova, but there's so many articles, translations, and texts to pick through that I can't for the life of me find where it was said.

Help pl0x.
 

Dark and Divine

Pro Adventurer
AKA
D&D
From the FFVII Ultimania Omega Guide:

***Sephiroth's will and Jenova's will*** (Page 53)
The Sephiroth clones seen in various locations continue gathering for the Reunion. Seemingly, the will of Jenova as a human is the result of it consuming Sephiroth's spirit; in actuality, Sephiroth is controlling Jenova.

(Accompanying screenshot caption)
Sephiroth's voice is heard through his "mother," Jenova, as applied through
its cells in the Sephiroth Clones.

**Jenova Relation 3: The Sephiroth Clones** (005.1C)

(...)

*Successful work, failure work*
(...) Also noteworthy is Sephiroth's unique case. Until the secret of his birth was known, he had legendary strength of which he was proud, but 5 years ago, he began walking a different road from that of humans. However, he was unwilling to be placed under Jenova's control and became the leader himself, with its actions falling under his control in the end. This fact resulted in Sephiroth gaining a new sense of strength.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Jeez, the original game says it too. I really don't get how people think Jenova was in control.
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
It does? I must not have uncovered whatever scene says it :/
 

Gale

Read My Mind
It's the way Hojo talks about him in the Northern Cave.

Hojo said:
He's a Sephiroth clone I created after the real Sephiroth died five years
ago. Jenova cells and Mako, with my knowledge and skills, have been combined
with science and nature to bring him to life. ...I'm not wild about the failure
part, but the Jenova Reunion Theory has now been proven. You see, even if
Jenova's body is dismembered, it will eventually become one again. That's what
is meant by Jenova's Reunion to start. Five years have passed, and now the
Clones have began to return. I thought the Clones would begin to gather at
Midgar where Jenova is stored. But my predictions were not entirely correct.
Jenova itself began to move away from the Shinra Building. But being a genius
that I am, I soon figured it out. You see it was all Sephiroth's doing.
Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the Lifestream; he wants
to manipulate the Clones itself.
 

Cat Rage Room

Great Old One
AKA
Mog
Jeez, the original game says it too. I really don't get how people think Jenova was in control.

Considering that scores and scores of people have been mistaken or otherwise confused about it for ten years, it couldn't have been that clear.

No, I'll be straight; it isn't very clear.
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
I didn't entirely get that implication from that monologue either. It does say "Sephiroth wants x" rather than Jenova, but I guess I just figured the two of them working together when I read it rather than Sephiroth being in control.
 

Cthulhu

Administrator
AKA
Yop
I don't see how saying " You see it was all Sephiroth's doing.
Sephiroth is not just content to diffuse his will into the Lifestream; he wants
to manipulate the Clones itself." would be the intent of saying 'Oh yeah, Jenny's Seph's bitch and he totally pwns her ass". I never would've known Seph > Jen if it wasn't for the Compilation / this site, and even not if it wasn't for AC, in which it's still left rather vague.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Uh, it certainly doesn't say Sephiroth is controlled by Jenova, though either. No where does it say that Sephiroth is enslaved by Jenova. That monologue coupled with Jenova saying:

Cloud: He disappeared!?

Tifa: He might still be nearby……

???: Our purpose is to deliver the Black Materia to our master.

Cloud: Our...?

Cid: Hey, hey! What's goin' on?

???: Those who carry Jenova's cells...

Cloud: Master...!?

???: Of course... Sephiroth. Heh, heh, heh...

Is again, indicative of Jenova being under the control of Sephiroth. Unless you think Jenova would call Sephiroth "master" while controlling him. :monster:
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
I considered it ambiguous as to who controlled whom, though I didn't notice the "master" thing.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Jenova calls Sephiroth master, so that coupled with Hojo's dialogue, the fact Sephiroth is the final boss, and he's the one who used the Reunion to get the Black Materia and heal himself makes it pretty obvious he's the one pulling the strings of everything. :monster:
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
I assumed Jenova was in control because:
  • The explanations given for Sephiroth's insanity didn't make logical sense
  • Sephiroth going on a mad killing spree furthers Jenova's natural instinct
  • Puppet villains weren't exactly new to Square Enix games
Between that and the shitty translation there wasn't really enough room to say definitively who was in control until the Ultimania came out, imo.
 

Channy

Bad Habit
AKA
Ruby Rose, Lucy
Obviously unless you're Makofart, it isn't entirely clear. :wacky: I was plenty confused about it until I came upon ACF and read up on the facts there. The way that Sephiroth speaks about Jenova, constantly wanting to please his mother an such, just made it seem to me that she was controlling, if not at least influencing him greatly.
 

Ⓐaron

Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
AKA
The Man, V
yeah there was Sephiroth's oedipus complex to consider as well :wackymonster:
 

Channy

Bad Habit
AKA
Ruby Rose, Lucy
Momma's boy isn't even the right term for that dysfunctional family anymore. :wacky:
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Well translation buggery aside, Jenova is calling Sephiroth master herself so that's right there in the game and correct. There's proof of it there if you look for it. Hojo and Jenova say so themselves :monster:
 

Ravynne Nevyrmore

that one Lucrecia fangirl
AKA
Ravynne
Proof if you look for it, yeah, but it takes someone to point it out to really look for it and find that.

it isn't really clear that it's "Jenova" who is calling Sephiroth "Master." When I played, I thought the Sephiroth clones were your typical villain minions, other entities separate from Sephiroth and Jenova who followed Sephiroth because he was strong. Actually I thought they were more failed attempts at what Cloud was because Hojo called Cloud a Sephiroth Clone also. I thought they were people that Hojo injected Sephiroth or Jenova's cells into, who had weak wills and so had lost themselves and their identities and just wanted to reunite with Jenova.

Oh and thanks for pointing me to the right place. The UO, durrr. I was looking all over this site.
 

Channy

Bad Habit
AKA
Ruby Rose, Lucy
See, but that conversational part you provided doesn't make it any clearer. :wacky:

the whole ???? doesn't indicate who it is because imo I thought that the clones were still just individual people with no names and Jenova cells in them.

If it was Jenova and we KNEW it was Jenova, why wouldn't it say "Jenova:" followed by some easy fucked up spelling error? :awesome:

edit: Also ^^ that pretty much
 

Max Payne

Banned
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
Obviously unless you're Makofart, it isn't entirely clear. :wacky: I was plenty confused about it until I came upon ACF and read up on the facts there. The way that Sephiroth speaks about Jenova, constantly wanting to please his mother an such, just made it seem to me that she was controlling, if not at least influencing him greatly.

Hey don't be stealing my nicknames bitch.

And I always suspect Sefiros was the one in charge later in the game.
 

Max Payne

Banned
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
Nothing was really clear in the beginning, nothing ever really is.
 

Dashell

SMILE!
AKA
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Yep, I used to think it was Jenova as well. I basically thought she WAS Sephiroth. I remember a while back me and a friend were talking about FFVII and he said Jenova was the main villain of FFVII, not Sephiroth. It made sense at the time.

I can understand the confusion really, I mean the game had some odd translations and it was kind of up in the air and then there's people like me who don't pay attention :monster: . I'm glad they were able to straighten this stuff out in the end, but I think they need to let FFVII rest for right now. No more milking it and what not. .. unless there's naked more Yuffie involved.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Clearly the "????" in the conversation is Jenova because at that point in the game you realize it wasn't Sephiroth you were chasing, but Jenova assuming the form of Sephiroth.

Why do you think when Sephiroth turned around to fight you, you suddenly were fighting Jenova DEATH and they express shock at the Sephiroth they were following not being who they thought?

If you read the reports in Nibelheim and listen to Hojo, you know Sephiroth Clones are merely the survivors of Nibelheim who were used in the Jenova Reunion experiment. Seriously, the proof in the game is right there. All the Ultimania does is cut it up into bite sizes and feeds it to you. :monster:
 
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