Looper
- Thread starter X-SOLDIER
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Demona
Dominique Destine
- AKA
- Sizheng
Just went to see it myself. I got dragged to see it by old schoolchums who would laugh at me if I suggested something G-rated that wouldn't give me nightmares.
I think I might have enjoyed it more if I hadn't been distracted trying to figure out if the time travel mechanics used would make my friends (some of which are incredibly picky about time travel) crap bricks. I had the same problem with Men In Black III.
Also,
.
Do we have a time travel thread? It'd be fun to talk about it and maybe categorise movies/stories (Harry Potter Azkaban, Men in Black 3, Midnight in Paris) according to them.
I'd write more but I'mbeing dragged to play Settlers of Catan gonna go pretend I'm cool and shit. Will edit later if no one else has posted.
Also I liked it.
I think I might have enjoyed it more if I hadn't been distracted trying to figure out if the time travel mechanics used would make my friends (some of which are incredibly picky about time travel) crap bricks. I had the same problem with Men In Black III.
Also,
I sort of thought that maybe the Rainmaker was the pathetic bastard kid with the tendency to overcompensate and such
Do we have a time travel thread? It'd be fun to talk about it and maybe categorise movies/stories (Harry Potter Azkaban, Men in Black 3, Midnight in Paris) according to them.
I'd write more but I'm
Also I liked it.
Demona
Dominique Destine
- AKA
- Sizheng
Overall, I thought it was good, but I think either I missed a couple of things on a desperate dash to the ladies' room in the middle of the movie or there were a couple of looperholes in the script.
So I guess with a little squirming around and thinking about the background, Looper makes a lot more sense and is awesome.
1. Is it ever established that Loopers a commonly-known occupation?
2. Does Sara actually ever answer Young Joe (explicitly) about how she knew about Loopers?
3. Headcanon, maybe obvious to others or implied in the film in the two minutes I missed while running for the loo--Sara was a showgirl like Suzie? That wasn't immediately obvious and only occurred to me just now. It would explain how she knows about Loopers, and why Cid's father isn't around--if she was just knocked up by one of her customers...
For some reason, that wasn't immediately obvious to me when she was telling him about having abandoned Cid, possibly because I was too busy being blargh about defensively resenting the anti-giving-yo-kid-up-for-adoption preachiness and seething slightly.
4. The economy getting its ass handed to it in 2044 probably has a lot to do with the Loopers themselves--the widespread inflation that the flooding of myriad silver ingots would do to it is kind of crazy.
Then again, it could quite easily be a closed time loop. Loopers spend the cash at the bar, the bar is run by mafia, who use the money the Loopers spend at the bar to pay them back in time--so there's a set amount of cash that stays with the mafia through time, which is probably why they keep tabs on the guys who stash their silver ingots and don't spend everything. Really damn clever. And it would make sense that they would introduce them to, then keep them hooked on those stimulants--sell them at a "reduced price," make it easy and available, and that keeps them coming back. The Looper clique and associated social group means that there'd be a lot of pressure to conform to the pattern. Also drug lords are scary.
5. What about Seth? The guy who got tortured for letting his Loop run? Does the science imply that his beat up as hell (tortured to... death?) younger self actually survive the torture, get caged somewhere for thirty years, then gets sent back in time for his younger self to... wait, no. It's not a closed loop--it's pretty... over.
And the whole point is moot after Old and Young Joe do their part to pretty much destroy the criminal organisation from the bottom up; preserving Sara, and taking out the entirety of the Gat Men. The latter creates a power vacuum where the possible future still includes the Rainmaker being created; the former does a lot to eliminate it.
So does Old Joe, in the diner, successfully explain the time travel model used as being one of alternate timelines or possibilities? Does anyone think he did that to begin with? Being fairly new to picking apart the stories in film, I wasn't sure if the fact that the conversations between Old and Young Joe (yes alternate timelines you sillyman) and Young Joe and Sara (assuming her sob story about what a wild youth she was to give up her son actually meant she was a showgirl who worked for the Gat Men at one point and therefore knew about Loopers) required a little work for them were unclear because the dialogues were weaker than intended, or because the screenwriter actually gave the audience some credit to fill in the gaps.
Thing is, I haven't really been expecting Hollywood to assume the intelligence of its audience for a while now. Doesn't mean it isn't nice to not be spoon-fed. However, the role of the author is also to submerge their audience in a dream, where waking up interrupts the flow of narrative. I guess if you're in a movie theatre, watching a sci-fi movie about time travel, though, your role is to suspend your disbelief.
2. Does Sara actually ever answer Young Joe (explicitly) about how she knew about Loopers?
3. Headcanon, maybe obvious to others or implied in the film in the two minutes I missed while running for the loo--Sara was a showgirl like Suzie? That wasn't immediately obvious and only occurred to me just now. It would explain how she knows about Loopers, and why Cid's father isn't around--if she was just knocked up by one of her customers...
For some reason, that wasn't immediately obvious to me when she was telling him about having abandoned Cid, possibly because I was too busy being blargh about defensively resenting the anti-giving-yo-kid-up-for-adoption preachiness and seething slightly.
4. The economy getting its ass handed to it in 2044 probably has a lot to do with the Loopers themselves--the widespread inflation that the flooding of myriad silver ingots would do to it is kind of crazy.
Then again, it could quite easily be a closed time loop. Loopers spend the cash at the bar, the bar is run by mafia, who use the money the Loopers spend at the bar to pay them back in time--so there's a set amount of cash that stays with the mafia through time, which is probably why they keep tabs on the guys who stash their silver ingots and don't spend everything. Really damn clever. And it would make sense that they would introduce them to, then keep them hooked on those stimulants--sell them at a "reduced price," make it easy and available, and that keeps them coming back. The Looper clique and associated social group means that there'd be a lot of pressure to conform to the pattern. Also drug lords are scary.
5. What about Seth? The guy who got tortured for letting his Loop run? Does the science imply that his beat up as hell (tortured to... death?) younger self actually survive the torture, get caged somewhere for thirty years, then gets sent back in time for his younger self to... wait, no. It's not a closed loop--it's pretty... over.
And the whole point is moot after Old and Young Joe do their part to pretty much destroy the criminal organisation from the bottom up; preserving Sara, and taking out the entirety of the Gat Men. The latter creates a power vacuum where the possible future still includes the Rainmaker being created; the former does a lot to eliminate it.
So does Old Joe, in the diner, successfully explain the time travel model used as being one of alternate timelines or possibilities? Does anyone think he did that to begin with? Being fairly new to picking apart the stories in film, I wasn't sure if the fact that the conversations between Old and Young Joe (yes alternate timelines you sillyman) and Young Joe and Sara (assuming her sob story about what a wild youth she was to give up her son actually meant she was a showgirl who worked for the Gat Men at one point and therefore knew about Loopers) required a little work for them were unclear because the dialogues were weaker than intended, or because the screenwriter actually gave the audience some credit to fill in the gaps.
Thing is, I haven't really been expecting Hollywood to assume the intelligence of its audience for a while now. Doesn't mean it isn't nice to not be spoon-fed. However, the role of the author is also to submerge their audience in a dream, where waking up interrupts the flow of narrative. I guess if you're in a movie theatre, watching a sci-fi movie about time travel, though, your role is to suspend your disbelief.
So I guess with a little squirming around and thinking about the background, Looper makes a lot more sense and is awesome.
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
1. No, but the city that they live in IS stablished as being a bit of a corrupt shithole. Joe specifically mentions that Abe's accomplishment of essentially taking over the city after coming back from the future would have actually been an accomplishment, had it been anyplace else.
2. No, but she talks about pretty much being a junkie for a while, and leading into your #3, assumedly people running around in that type of life makes it pretty clear that the Loopers aren't entirely unknown. They're not incredibly advertised, but they're clearly not a hidden entity either. Your headcanon/assumption is entirely likely and plausible.
2. No, but she talks about pretty much being a junkie for a while, and leading into your #3, assumedly people running around in that type of life makes it pretty clear that the Loopers aren't entirely unknown. They're not incredibly advertised, but they're clearly not a hidden entity either. Your headcanon/assumption is entirely likely and plausible.
4. Well, from what we see, thier payments are essentially just pouring back into the drugs, and clubs that the mafia already controls (at least in the town we see). That's probably why it's so easy for Abe to tell that Joe's been saving up his cash. Assumedly there's a small degreee of the funds that will economically mess with things, but overall, there's also the fact that they're essentially paying into having a safe future where the mob will be keeping track of their whereabouts and keeping them safe (up until they get tossed back and iced to ensure that the time loop remains consistent).
5. There's a reason that Seth's younger self AND his older self had to be at the same location. That way, the mafia knows WHERE he is in the past and in the future. They keep him there and ensure that in this altered future, he's still gonna die in the same place as an old man, which (loosely) holds the continuity together a little better, even though Abe talks about the significant risk of interfering at all. As long as they can at least ensure that past Seth and his Loop both die in ways that they have total control over, they have a smaller risk of casting ripples into the existing timeline.
This is because each timeline change directly propagates through time into the Future self's life without them having to live through the entire series of events back into the present. I.E. there's no version where old Seth goes back in time, and wanders all the way to the building missing limbs. This is why the specifics of the future are blurred until they become set for the Future self by the past/current version's actions.
This is because each timeline change directly propagates through time into the Future self's life without them having to live through the entire series of events back into the present. I.E. there's no version where old Seth goes back in time, and wanders all the way to the building missing limbs. This is why the specifics of the future are blurred until they become set for the Future self by the past/current version's actions.
It's not really a moot point, because the mechanic that we're looking at is based on an overlapping, cascading timeline. Lemme diagram it out.
*Timeline A*
- Young Joe kills old Joe.
- Young Joe continues his life and ends up in China.
- An unknown series of events leads Cid to become The Rainman.
- Old Joe's wife gets killed and he gets sent back in time.
- Old Joe crosses into his own timeline and survives.
~ This event creates Timeline B
*Timeline B*
- Young Joe's future is in flux due to his future self directly interacting with his past.
> This leaves only a few points of old Joe's certain: having his wife, and not having a child.
- Old Joe kills the first child who may have become the Rainmaker.
- This changes his own timeline, and he does have a child with his wife.
~This is now technically a different timeline, Timeline C (where he's also dealing with losing his wife AND child).
*Timeline C*
- Old Joe continues his rampage, while Young Joe meets up with Sara & Cid.
- Old Joe loops back into his own timeline attempting to eliminate Cid, who will become the Rainmaker.
- Young Joe, shoots himself, cascading through the timeline, and destroying Old Joe.
~This creates Timeline D
*Timeline D*
- Cid's wound is healed and his mom cares for him, (likely) preventing him from becoming Rainman at all, and also (almost certainly) preventing him from becoming the Rainman with the synthetic jaw, whose mother was killed.
(Note: the events that originally lead to Rainman's creation didn't involve old Joe at all, since he closed his loop. However, since he was directly involved in Cid's life, and knowledge of it was given to Sara, there's a good possibility that he'll turn out alright, even without old Joe forcing him to become Rainman, because young Joe managed to prevent his own actions).
*Timeline A*
- Young Joe kills old Joe.
- Young Joe continues his life and ends up in China.
- An unknown series of events leads Cid to become The Rainman.
- Old Joe's wife gets killed and he gets sent back in time.
- Old Joe crosses into his own timeline and survives.
~ This event creates Timeline B
*Timeline B*
- Young Joe's future is in flux due to his future self directly interacting with his past.
> This leaves only a few points of old Joe's certain: having his wife, and not having a child.
- Old Joe kills the first child who may have become the Rainmaker.
- This changes his own timeline, and he does have a child with his wife.
~This is now technically a different timeline, Timeline C (where he's also dealing with losing his wife AND child).
*Timeline C*
- Old Joe continues his rampage, while Young Joe meets up with Sara & Cid.
- Old Joe loops back into his own timeline attempting to eliminate Cid, who will become the Rainmaker.
- Young Joe, shoots himself, cascading through the timeline, and destroying Old Joe.
~This creates Timeline D
*Timeline D*
- Cid's wound is healed and his mom cares for him, (likely) preventing him from becoming Rainman at all, and also (almost certainly) preventing him from becoming the Rainman with the synthetic jaw, whose mother was killed.
(Note: the events that originally lead to Rainman's creation didn't involve old Joe at all, since he closed his loop. However, since he was directly involved in Cid's life, and knowledge of it was given to Sara, there's a good possibility that he'll turn out alright, even without old Joe forcing him to become Rainman, because young Joe managed to prevent his own actions).
Do yourself a favor, and go watch Brick. It'll give you a really good idea of how much Rian Johnson expects you to put together on your own for his Noir films. And then add in that this film has time travel and everything else on top of it.
NOW - Here's something that's REALLY been eating at me, is should fuel your, "maybe I should go watch this again" urges. (I'm hoping to have a chance to re-watch it soon).
Very shortly after we learn that old Joe is attempting to keep his future intact by remembering the first time he saw his wife, we see something REALLY interesting...
Sara sits down outside of her house, and pantomimes smoking a cigarette, while spinning her free hand. She does the exact same thing later, just after sleeping with young Joe. She's smoking while using her TK powers to float her lighter. THIS is the final thing that ensures that Joe cares enough to kill himself to prevent old Joe from turning Cid into the Rainman. It should also be noted that Cid - who is a GENIUS - also says candidly that she's not his mom.
I have this gnawing suspicion that she's actually someone looping back to care for Cid, after he accidentally killed his real mother in a tantrum. This would explain how he originally came to be motherless and turn into Rainman without old Joe's involvement. This would also explain how she knows about Loopers, and would ensure that he doesn't become Rainman in the end.
Sara sits down outside of her house, and pantomimes smoking a cigarette, while spinning her free hand. She does the exact same thing later, just after sleeping with young Joe. She's smoking while using her TK powers to float her lighter. THIS is the final thing that ensures that Joe cares enough to kill himself to prevent old Joe from turning Cid into the Rainman. It should also be noted that Cid - who is a GENIUS - also says candidly that she's not his mom.
I have this gnawing suspicion that she's actually someone looping back to care for Cid, after he accidentally killed his real mother in a tantrum. This would explain how he originally came to be motherless and turn into Rainman without old Joe's involvement. This would also explain how she knows about Loopers, and would ensure that he doesn't become Rainman in the end.
Also JUST found this after writing this all up - http://geektyrant.com/news/2012/9/29/looper-mysteries-explained-by-director-rian-johnson.html
X
looneymoon
they/them
- AKA
- Rishi
I second this motion actually.
Demona
Dominique Destine
- AKA
- Sizheng
1. Yussyuss, I just wanted to know if I'd missed something while covering my eyes and ears during some gory bits so that I could posit questions two and three about Sara, really. I can't recall if the chap loading the pink backpack into the schoolbus was using a blunderbuss, either--was he a looper who shows up later or do you reckon those weapons are mass-issue for the general public?
I think that's what I said, only less eloquently. The first part, anyway.
Magic.
Ah, the moot point thing I talked about was actually well-solved by your discussion of the Seth business. I understood the cascading all right--just not how Seth worked into those timelines. But the diagrams are nice! Even if you didn't use straws.
Okay, first of all--really awesome suspicion! LOVE.
When watching the movie, I read the TK business as lending genetic strength to her claim that she is indeed Cid's mother. She is a stronger than usual TK, for one, being able to not just float slightly larger objects but has fine enough control to manipulate objects being manipulated by others, for instance. Furthermore, Cid may be apossibly sociopathic genius, but Sara's portrayal of the desperate mother and her (correct) assessment that he can get scared and confused, and being given up from birth and then traumatised by causing the death of the person who loved and cared for you as if you were their own child is enough to confuse even a genius kid.
Also, I saw the smoking and TK-play on the porch being more to do with supporting the reveal that she still remembered being slummy than foreshadowing her "Whoohoo, I'm gonna bone Joe-GL who cares if he's wearing facial prosthetics to look more like Bruce Willis he's still a babe!" post-coital moment.
And I don't really recall her having a clock on her, or having any clocks near her--would she be especially careful about keeping time? And somebody remind me if the porch scene was before or after she first heard the bushes rustle.
But yeah somebody should write a fanfic.
When watching the movie, I read the TK business as lending genetic strength to her claim that she is indeed Cid's mother. She is a stronger than usual TK, for one, being able to not just float slightly larger objects but has fine enough control to manipulate objects being manipulated by others, for instance. Furthermore, Cid may be a
Also, I saw the smoking and TK-play on the porch being more to do with supporting the reveal that she still remembered being slummy than foreshadowing her "Whoohoo, I'm gonna bone Joe-GL who cares if he's wearing facial prosthetics to look more like Bruce Willis he's still a babe!" post-coital moment.
And I don't really recall her having a clock on her, or having any clocks near her--would she be especially careful about keeping time? And somebody remind me if the porch scene was before or after she first heard the bushes rustle.
But yeah somebody should write a fanfic.
Ghost X
Moderator
In regards to the article X-SOLDIER posted, the trailers are deceptive indeed, and I think everyone should know that before watching the film...
and I'm gonna be a party pooper and say I dislike the deception. I tried to enjoy the film though, but I'd give it 4/5 stars at most. It's good when a movie is better than your expectations, but if it pulls the old bait and switch, it doesn't settle well with me. I like the concepts, except for the TK and family drama business. I also hate the ending 
. It is an all right movie though, hence still worthy of 4/5 stars.
. It is an all right movie though, hence still worthy of 4/5 stars.
X-SOLDIER
Harbinger O Great Justice
- AKA
- X
@ Ghost X - I can see that it'd be a lot better if you don't have anything pre-conceived about it.
So... because of the content of this thread, and this article on the Huffington Post that the director Rian Johnson tweeted about, I decided to write this analysis on my tumblr that I then shared...
...and he retweeted.
Apparently I got some points right.
This totally made my day.
X
So... because of the content of this thread, and this article on the Huffington Post that the director Rian Johnson tweeted about, I decided to write this analysis on my tumblr that I then shared...
...and he retweeted.
Apparently I got some points right.
This totally made my day.
X
Fangu
Great Old One
I saw this movie yesterday and thought it was refreshingly excellent. I enjoyed almost every minute of it. (Some stuff sent me slightly astray, which I didn't like, but the movie is totally forgiven.) I love the way it doesn't spell things straight out to you, but you have to think for yourself, and you can make up your own little theories as you watch it - and afterwards too. Also the fact that it takes it slow. Each new character is carefully introduced, and each vital point explained enough for you to get the main point. Sometimes I have problems following the logic in a storyline because it often seems like 'something we have to explain to get to the action', but this movie takes care of the various parts of the plot.
I really enjoy Joseph Gordon-Levitt as an actor. And Emily Blunt's American accent totally convinced me.
(Also sorry for my language, too much Norwegian has been written today and it takes time getting back into English.)
The end also totally blew me away (pun not intended). I didn't see that coming AT ALL, but made perfect sense. That was the best moment I've had in a movie theater for ages.
I really enjoy Joseph Gordon-Levitt as an actor. And Emily Blunt's American accent totally convinced me.
(Also sorry for my language, too much Norwegian has been written today and it takes time getting back into English.)