SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[GamerSkull]

Reminds me…. I want closure for the Fair parents too. C’mon.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Oh I never knew/realized Cloud was supposed to be oblivious to both girls in OG. It’s just my opinion that his portrayal is a bit different in the Retrilogy though, because I surmised that if he’s capable of initiating romantic acts himself, it just makes sense to think that he’s gotta have awareness to some extent.

Also maybe it’s just my attachment to Zerith but I’ve never considered Aerith’s feelings for Zack and Cloud to be equivalent it’s hard to see CA romantically when the romantic aspect of their relationship can’t exist in a vacuum since it was always provoked by Aerith’s lingering fondness of her first love (and this was true in OG too, maybe until the GS date), but even afterwards in ACC they treat Cloud as a big kid, and that big kid made a joint monument for them so to me it’s consistent with Retrilogy’s portrayal how Cloud remembers Zack to be “Aerith’s man” the one she misses and yearns for because he understands her loss.

Which is why I think whether or not ACC will still be the direct sequel of the Retrilogy, it’s still going to be a main reference on how the devs approach the story and characters moving forward.

Yeah though I definitely think before Remake it was treated seperately like lifestream white outright said she loved Cloud romantically without that confusion on her part "for she had loved him". Even if it's not canon older guides like Dismantled made a distinction too. Funny enough it was Maiden which travels the Planet that had her confused.

And OG basically treated Aerith's feelings for Cloud as this whole separate thing she was trying to resolve. Here... She is conflicted between both like in OG but unlike OG we have Cloud find out about Zack so no matter what she does or says he is always going to have that association.

And as I said her difference between liking and liking or What kind of like this is being less forthright and basically doesn't allow us to fully separate her feelings for Zack from Cloud other than she likes him in a different way. At least by the end of part 2.

In OG you did see a distinction. And even in Remake. But I don't see that distinction in Rebirth. It's not that is it equivalent but before Rebirth it used to be it's own separate thing what she thought about Cloud, I think from her perspective too. And they kinda do that "you're the one I want to be with now" in GS to kind of walk it back at the end in Rebirth because she doesnt say we're friends now or I love you now or whatever it feels way less concrete to me. Like you can't tell where her feelings for Zack ends and for Cloud begins?

Edit: "I wonder what like this is" and yeah the contrast I got was Tifa is sure it's romantic love while Aerith isn't sure beyond like.

I didn't get the impression in OG nor LS White which pretty unambiguously called it romantic love nor anything before Rebirth. Even her resolution was like I will always cherish you.

And yeah I love the ambiguity aspect of CA but with this as I said it felt kind of pointless in the end to set it up the way it was set up.

 

[nepheneethedestroyer]

Yeah though I definitely think before Remake it was treated seperately like lifestream white outright said she loved Cloud romantically without that confusion on her part.

I take this to mean Aerith talking about SOLDIER!Cloud (mostly, though I assume due to her overall presence in the Lifestream that she could have peeked in on the party's adventures with "real" Cloud at any point), which I actually think is sweet. Putting aside any "long-term feasibility" arguments, I did always feel like Aerith settled on liking "that" Cloud (SOLDIER!Cloud) for his own merits, despite any initial feelings being perhaps mired in the similarities towards Zack, while Tifa was always a little confused by the differences (in OG).

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

Of course not. My wife. My touchy.

You're welcome for that setup btw.

In the series finale she meets Johnny and decides "Okay, they are normal... in comparison."

Only to be informed that nah, Johnny is closer to true normal than any of us. Start over in defining normal kid.

Even Nuclear would be a better option, really, but yes, wind and solar as well.

With rigid safety and disposal standards nuclear is amazing. It's getting those standards and keeping them that's the big problem. Plus unlike sun and wind, you gotta mine for uranium and the like, might make a better mirror for our big boy. Also the eco-terrorist in him might be wary of nuclear power so... drama! UST disguised as drama! Resolving the UST FGJ! I'm all in for this now.

Aye. It's sad.

Hypocrisy is always sad. Even when it's funny.

Nah, Anastar was the old master, fallen as the hate of the old apprentice makes them the new master.

Well congrats to Bane then, the rule of two works.

And you arrive precisely when you mean to?

Indeed. I should also mention that when the building is on fire, it's not my fault.

Now let's see where you go next, continue the original quote chain, switch to referencing wizard quotes, derail it sideways. The choices are yours.

It pops up. Never mind that repeatedly it's described as "the family [Cloud and Tifa] were forming in edge," Four year old Marlene is the true arbiter of the family unit.

Time marches on but bad faith arguments divorced from all logic remain the same.

But does your roommate continue to hang about around your bed in the middle of the night while you sleep? That's the part that's strange for a roommate but not for a lover. If you pass out on the couch and roommate sticks around that's one thing, because that's the public part of the house. Your bedroom is another matter entirely.

RIP, my joke. We hardly knew ye.

It's away from Tifa but without intending to be, was what I was trying to get at.

Agreed, Cloud never meant to harm Tifa or the kids. As you and I have both referenced, by the time Cloud leaves for the church he's in full "it's better for them this way" mode.

That was some of the classic nonsense on Anastar's old site. Her and FFG.

Which one was FFG? Did they fail to make a strong impression or am I just old?

Yeah, that's why it is important to pop up and say "that's not correct" every so often.

Despite the old "someone is wrong on the internet" meme, you have to do this sometimes. Because it's true, they are on the internet and they are wrong. Within reason having their incorrect position challenged can only be good for them if they allow that goodness in. Just don't hold your breath.

Sometimes outright lies too.

It's at it's worst when the outright lies go on so long they forget they're lying.

I believe there's an ever in there as well, but yes. Many years ago, when I was extremely frustrated I compiled a list, I think I called it the short simple list or something like that, and it was just a bunch of statements, from developers, about C/T, about how they belonged together or were special or unique to each other. That line was on the list.

You could hear Ryu's teeth grinding around the world when this was going on. Kids would fearfully ask if those were the cries of the Planet, and their parents would shush them and explain "no sweetie, that's just the sound of pedantry denied by willfully disregard of the facts, it won't hurt you"

Always huh? I guess as a Clerith I have to hate Tifa by default then. No choice.

This is why we need a specific name for bad faith Cleriths. It was easier when they were all from Pink Hell and we could just use that.

In fact I hated Tifa so much I had a blog post on how Cloud's answer to Do you love Marlene is supposed to be his answer to Tifa's "Do you love me?" And the answer being yes but I just don't know how to act around her sometimes. Which was what kicked off my series of essays on ACC. I was kinda facinated by the writing style in COT.

Your vitriol is noted. Amazing how motivating true spite is, innit?

What can I say. Nothing is stopping my fated rage towards her.

Burn it all child, burn it all. Also I hope you can sense my sarcastic piss taking here, you're obviously not Pink Hell material.

Seriously, we need a shirt, snappy, evocative name for Cleriths who lie/dismiss/etc in the name of their ship. Vote on it or something.

Hm. Though I have to say. I really like listening to people who have no idea about LTD stuff try to puzzle it out. My husband does like romance he just doesn't care for any debates about it. While I'm all for debates because I like arguing I guess.

I came in here the very first time for an argument, found out this is abuse

It's funny how different outside perspectives can be. Also very insightful. And I really think the main people you need to convince are those outsiders and more casual fans to end the LTD not the people entrenched in the war for years. And I think ReTrilogy is on the way to do just that.

You're not wrong, you know. The loud and proud minority will largely slink off to their own private caverns to talk shit about Tifa once the majority stops listening. Thems my thoughts.

I'm half joking. Don't worry about it. But also it's frustating that this is definitely a common sentiment because of how Loud the vocal ones are. They drown everyone else out.

That's every fandom and political issue ever. The vocal element, often in the minority, just makes things painful for everyone else.

But in seriousness even my mutuals who still think CA is canon also don't hate Tifa. In fact some like her more than you would think. It's just we get labled as Not CAs when that happens so I can see how the impression came about. The most vocal are the ones that are associated the most with the fandom while the rest are just kind of in the corner. Some are just waiting and seeing how ReTrilogy turns out.

This feels like Tifa returning segways in Costa del Sol to me. The people who hate Tifa for getting in the way of their ship, the Tifa being just so sweet and helpful it should be impossible to hate her. Unlike the in-game chicklet though, a lot of people close their eyes and lalala so they can keep hating. Honestly thank you for showing folk what a sane Clerith looks like, you and Maiden are lovely to have in this tired old thread.

And as I mentioned I do definitely think the LTD from the inside looks much worse than it is,

You can only see the real mess from within

but from the outside the general audience just goes with whatever they see on screen.

To be fair, that's how most people arguing Cloti here on TLS reached their conclusion in the first place, Cloud/Tifa is what's on screen.

And CT and ZA have been a lot more pushed recently so more people do accept it.

Fair enough, the shift from Lego people to the best face acting in modern games plus having a much longer playtime to utiluze does help with clarity.

You also just have these outside audience go with whatever they see of the character so they generally like them and are not mischaractizing them.

Being frank, I'm still convinced most of the mischaracterizations you see from more rabid shippers are on purpose. And just as often about hurting the other side as about propping up their own.

And I think in general these people will eventually just outnumber the more stubborn vocal and extreme fans.

May the vocal minority be drowned out by the silent acceptance of canon by the masses.

 

[Hellenic]

I believe the "its not a romance game" people are just intimidated by the LTD, they want nothing to do with it so they convince themselves it doesn't matter. But I find this completely delusional and I think that without recognizing the LTD you really can't talk about the game in any meaningful way. I notice this when I watch stuff like Maximillian dood, night sky prince, Sleepezi, and others having a conversation about theories concerning Remake part 3.

It's all about mechanics and "what is happening" when that approach is completely impotent if you don't first address the underlying "why". What themes are being addressed here? What life lessons are being taught here, what human experience are they trying to have us experience?
Cloud is our main character, it is mainly through his journey that we learn whatever it is that the games story can teach us, and if you don't first recognize Clouds emotional state and how these events intersect with that then you have no basis for saying what will happen, because without the "why" there is no point, they are just events happening in order without a greater picture being sketched. So yeah, it's great that they're talking about how maybe Sephiroth will convince Cloud that he killed Aerith, but without the underlying understanding that Cloud has to accept loss and how that's related to Nibelheim and Tifa and failure and all those things then you can't tell if this take is in any way likely.
Because the themes dictate the events, because the events are happening in order to tell us a story, the events themselves aren't the story, Clouds experience is the story, and that's contingent on who he is and what he is feeling and why.

I actually happened to watch that theory session they had too and unless i'm totally off, didn't they imply that the Lifestream sequence should be some kinda big general event this time around instead of just being revolved around Cloud and Tifa? At least i got that kinda impression when they brought it up. Definitely not on board with that idea if it was what they suggested.

 

[GamerSkull]

I actually happened to watch that theory session they had too and unless i'm totally off, didn't they imply that the Lifestream sequence should be some kinda big general event this time around instead of just being revolved around Cloud and Tifa? At least i got that kinda impression when they brought it up. Definitely not on board with that idea if it was what they suggested.

That just shows they don’t understand the scene to begin with. The reason it’s Tifa is because she is the only one who can confirm who the True Cloud is… because she was the only one who knew him prior to the events in the story.

 

[Yoru]

I actually happened to watch that theory session they had too and unless i'm totally off, didn't they imply that the Lifestream sequence should be some kinda big general event this time around instead of just being revolved around Cloud and Tifa? At least i got that kinda impression when they brought it up. Definitely not on board with that idea if it was what they suggested.

Yeah their take was that the LS sequence will be expanded and involving everyone.

 

[LunarTarotGirl]

Its strange; it feels like they wanted to have their cake and eat it too, with that scene. It was either a confession or i like you but not romantically. but it feels out of character for Aerith with her last chance to not be able to say her feelings when all the time she's been a very upfront character.
So in the end, all we have are these conclusions
1 It was her admiting she is confused about her feelings and doesnt truly know even after her date and all the time
2 It was a confession and she was just shy but Cloud didn't understand or changed it by derailing the conversation
3 It was a confession and she just made it confusing
4 It was not a confession, but her admitting that theres different kinds of like and its not romantic since she quickly said this.
5 She didnt want to confess since she knew she was dying so made it confusing on purpose

Either way depending on how you view the relationships, its a different answer. Ambigious on purpose to not annoy anyone. However, with this confusion, it now creates more arguments and sorta gives false hope. Whats really weird though is the alternate phrase Cloud can say since its not High affection to trigger it. Seemingly no one actually knows what causes the difference and the end conversation ends the same with Cloud saying your being weird?. Its noticeable worse written than the other scenes its quite jarring. For Aerith's resolution i honestly believe its been retconned i went into Rebirth expecting that plot line and it was not in the main story there was cute moments but nothing that would cause the line " You cant fall in love with me" they might have changed it to avoid any confusion when Tifa stuff happens in part 3 or because of Zack. Or it was a meta line saying the romance isn't actually real even if you think it is.

Yeah pretty much exactly my thoughts. Like as I said I don't think it's unclear but it's executed in a way that really feels unsatisfying. Like first yeah it's a bit out of character for her to not just say it. And also because now it's like did even SHE love him romantically? No? Ok then what was the point? Which contradicts the compilation in terms of her feelings. And if she did love him romantically? Yes? Then okay again what is the point?
The point seems to be to set up Zerith honestly. Which is great if you're a Zerith fan. But it doesn't actually do much for Aerith the character beyond that. And as a Clerith fan it's like okay? Why put the resolution as meta commentary when girl doesn't even know what like it is? And yeah it leaves out some hope but like I don't know for what because to me that hope's gonna be shot down or probably ignored? So why?

It's just very lacking. Like I still like Clerith's bond regardless I still find it beautiful but I keep asking myself was any of that necessary? Just seems like a stepping stone for ZA not actual development of the CA bond really. Because we know she was conflicted, this isn't news. We know by GC too she knows Cloud isn't Zack and is aware she is seeing Zack in Cloud and is talking about searching for him. I would have even been happy with her saying I guess we're friends at this point.

I can see why you'd include this to set up Zerith sure. But I can't tell you what it does for Aerith or even Cloud as a character to be like well guess I may not like you like that. Or I guess I may but it's different *shrug

Or what it does for Aerith as a character for her entire arc to revolve around this. The only purpose I can think of is that it has her be satisfied with her relationship with Cloud as is and again lets her set up a reunion with Zack. Stuff that was honestly already there especially in Gongaga.

I think you get what I mean.

 

[A-to-Z]

Reminds me…. I want closure for the Fair parents too. C’mon.

Zerith is so bittersweet because there’s traces and lasting impressions of their relationship everywhere. It’s how 88 of Aerith’s letters never reached him, preserved in a box somewhere, it’s how all the Turks knew how impactful Zack was to Aerith, being urged to keep those 88 letters in case they find him and teasing her of her new boy toy when they see Cloud. It’s how Elmyra was cold to Cloud, another “Soldier” in her daughter’s life and was cautious about him, because she knew how Aerith suffered in those 4 years after Zack disappeared. It’s how Zack “head-over-heels” Fair talked about Aerith all the time that a memory of that is what triggers Cloud to remember that he knew him at all, it’s how Zack’s letters to his parents kept mentioning Aerith, how even Cissnei verbally acknowledges and understands the fact that Zack is down horrendous for Aerith, how when Aerith saw someone who looked like Zack, (his father) she couldn’t help but ask about him and bring him up, how Tifa checked on Aerith in Gongaga if she received any news of Zack because they’ve been talking about first loves, It’s how Zack mimicks Aerith’s “Hello in there” to try and wake her up because that’s how SHE WOKE HIM UP WHEN THEY FIRST MET (more apparent in JP they both say “moshi moshi”) and don’t even get me started on “our spot” “our place” and “following the yellow flowers.” It’s true, Aerith and Zack’s parents need closure but the shipper in me first and foremost wants to make their yearning FINALLY REACH OTHER

(Sorry for yapping btw hope you didn't mind)

 

[GamerSkull]

Yeah their take was that the LS sequence will be expanded and involving everyone.

This is what I mean when I say I avoid other Final Fantasy fans (general franchise). So many bad takes, particularly the ones that don’t actually understand why a scene is important.

 

[ChaosandConfusion]

I took a deep dive on x and I'm baffled at how both sides are so sure that they're right and bringing up all kinds of quotes and merchandise to prove that they're right. I can't be the only one that finds all of this petty back and forth hilarious with everyone saying part 3 is going to sink "insert rival ship here".

 

[GamerSkull]

I took a deep dive on x and I'm baffled at how both sides are so sure that they're right and bringing up all kinds of quotes and merchandise to prove that they're right. I can't be the only one that finds all of this petty back and forth hilarious with everyone saying part 3 is going to sink "insert rival ship here".

Twitter is… something else. LOL

Well, I definitely think Part 3 is gonna end the LTD. At least I hope so… it will have raged on for thirty years, it’s time to stop.

But yeah, I think there’s a lot of “war” on Twitter in particular.

 

[Hellenic]

I like to watch Whimsy Psyche's let's play; she's only played Remake before and theorycrafts on what's happening based on only that. The stuff she was able to pull together is absolutely crazy. Now she is an incredible theorycrafter. Here if you want to watch her: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLNXSajyEaaSambByZm0cnRd4CjIO-gHHv

I'll bounce off of that and throw in another recommendation from my way. Julia: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLYNu7HjdIDjDKZGU-xeO2PuNAJ2Veamb6.

I've really enjoyed following her playthrough. She only has played Remake before Rebirth as well and i love how invested she is in the game and she even takes notes about things and shows them off in her streams and has these kinda theorycrafting moments at times.

 

[A-to-Z]

Yeah pretty much exactly my thoughts. Like as I said I don't think it's unclear but it's executed in a way that really feels unsatisfying. Like first yeah it's a bit out of character for her to not just say it. And also because now it's like did even SHE love him romantically? No? Ok then what was the point? Which contradicts the compilation in terms of her feelings. And if she did love him romantically? Yes? Then okay again what is the point?
The point seems to be to set up Zerith honestly. Which is great if you're a Zerith fan. But it doesn't actually do much for Aerith the character beyond that. And as a Clerith fan it's like okay? Why put the resolution as meta commentary when girl doesn't even know what like it is? And yeah it leaves out some hope but like I don't know for what because to me that hope's gonna be shot down or probably ignored? So why?

It's just very lacking. Like I still like Clerith's bond regardless I still find it beautiful but I keep asking myself was any of that necessary? Just seems like a stepping stone for ZA not actual development of the CA bond really. Because we know she was conflicted, this isn't news. We know by GC too she knows Cloud isn't Zack and is aware she is seeing Zack in Cloud and is talking about searching for him. I would have even been happy with her saying I guess we're friends at this point.

I can see why you'd include this to set up Zerith sure. But I can't tell you what it does for Aerith or even Cloud as a character to be like well guess I may not like you like that. Or I guess I may but it's different *shrug

Or what it does for Aerith as a character for her entire arc to revolve around this. The only purpose I can think of is that it has her be satisfied with her relationship with Cloud as is and again lets her set up a reunion with Zack. Stuff that was honestly already there especially in Gongaga.

I think you get what I mean.

I think the purpose of the dream date is to have a resolution of Aerith who pursues Cloud romantically (it’s not meant to develop it) and in my opinion the answer was, it doesn’t matter if her feelings are romantic or not, she will continue to care for him and they will continue to care for each other. I think it’s possible the devs didn’t want to portray Aerith as someone who continues to pine for Cloud unrequitedly knowing what’s bound to happen in the story (even if there’s still much poignant meaning in that) she’s searching for real Cloud but the tragic part is she never gets to find him when she’s alive, (when it matters) and even if we count ACC, where Cloud is himself, the devs decided it wasn’t important for her character to make that distinction of him from his soldier persona (it doesn’t seem to factor in their interactions)

I disagree that her character arc revolved around this, it’s just evident to me in Rebirth that they were saving more of the Cetra lore for part 3 (which is frustrating). Also it’s highly likely that the Aerith we took in the GS date is different from the one in the dream date, if the latter is the one from CoLW, then it’s possible she spent a long time apart from Cloud, she might have missed him a lot.

I kind of understand where you’re coming from though, because personally I can’t tell what it does for Aerith to make her continue to love Cloud who’s already so committed to someone else.