SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Strangely I'm not seeing any of this, Eerie. Obviously it's there, in spades - rather, I'm wondering why it's not in my feed.
I didn't see it in my TL because my account is private ^^' but I went and looked at the cloti tag, it was on fire. Basically one clerith quoted RTed one translation put up by a cloti of the Ultimania and things kinda rolled from there... While clotis mostly ignored the clerith stuff in the Ultimania, cleriths went at war with even Audrey because she dared translated that Cloud felt let down in Alone at last since he expected something else than just a talk... everything is ugly there, there's a lot of gaslighting, outright attacks I see in the tag, etc. Mind you I don't go in the clerith tag so I've no clue as to what happens there, it's probably at war too.
 
Even though I am biased to an extent I still try to think as rational and reasonable as possible (though I have my moments) which is why Zack and Tifa as a serious possibility doesn't make that much sense to me, fanon, I mean if you think they look good together or something ok, but as canon, how would they develop that, where would they find the time. The games have other stuff to cover than just relationships.
 
These ship wars feel almost like political debates where it ultimately boils down to personal preferences and experiences. When the facts are more or less there, it's no longer about what happened or who loves who, but "how can you like something so shitty?", vs "how is your taste any better?"

Was talking to a former clerith, her old argument was that Tifa never noticed Cloud until he became someone, or at least tried to become someone. I think she associates that with materialism and gold digging. Something in her life has taught her that liking a potentially cool dude is associated with those undesirable qualities. Meanwhile, I thought... What's wrong with liking a cool dude, or some dude who comes along promising to be cool to impress you? I didn't find anything undesirable in that.

With the new materials in TOTP, she thinks they've retconned Tifa's personality but likes it a lot more and is glad they did it, so all's good and she's onboard the cloti ship. Whereas I personally find the new material too in-your-face for my tastes and I'm appreciating the subtleties in clerith more.

So when the facts are as spelt out as they are now, it's just really hard to debate anything without it becoming personal. Same fan has also subtly and unnecessarily implied that I can't appreciate cloti now because I can't appreciate normal down-to-earth relationships, and I'm just like... Yeah, maybe, so what? My experiences in life brought me to this point, do you really think it's worth tearing that apart just because I don't like your ship and don't share your tastes? But some fans on the internet do think their ship is worth that much.
 
After many years actually believing that Tifa disrespected Cloud and isolated him, it must be hard to accept that it was just a poor translation and that never happened. A couple Ultimanias can be ignored, but even the most hardcore shipper can't ignore their interactions in the Remake and the new novel :mon:

There are more interesting Love Triangles out there, like in the Stormlight Archive
Gavilar - Navani - Dalinar
 
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KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
Cloud felt let down in Alone at last since he expected something else than just a talk...
Tifa: “Hey Cloud, you wanna come over and f—”

Cloud: “YES.”

Tifa: “—ix my water filter with me?”

Cloud: “Dammit.”

These ship wars feel almost like political debates where it ultimately boils down to personal preferences and experiences. When the facts are more or less there, it's no longer about what happened or who loves who, but "how can you like something so shitty?", vs "how is your taste any better?"

Was talking to a former clerith, her old argument was that Tifa never noticed Cloud until he became someone, or at least tried to become someone. I think she associates that with materialism and gold digging. Something in her life has taught her that liking a potentially cool dude is associated with those undesirable qualities. Meanwhile, I thought... What's wrong with liking a cool dude, or some dude who comes along promising to be cool to impress you? I didn't find anything undesirable in that.

With the new materials in TOTP, she thinks they've retconned Tifa's personality but likes it a lot more and is glad they did it, so all's good and she's onboard the cloti ship. Whereas I personally find the new material too in-your-face for my tastes and I'm appreciating the subtleties in clerith more.

So when the facts are as spelt out as they are now, it's just really hard to debate anything without it becoming personal. Same fan has also subtly and unnecessarily implied that I can't appreciate cloti now because I can't appreciate normal down-to-earth relationships, and I'm just like... Yeah, maybe, so what? My experiences in life brought me to this point, do you really think it's worth tearing that apart just because I don't like your ship and don't share your tastes? But some fans on the internet do think their ship is worth that much.
I’m sure some of us would be similarly disappointed if how we understood the story turned out to be wrong, though I like to think I wouldn’t react nearly as badly. At the end of the day I don’t care about ships, just give me a good story. And I like the story the devs have told here especially because it’s not what I expected initially. But for people who have basically made their ships the center of their lives, admitting they were living a lie won’t be easy. It’s almost poetic considering the nature of this story lol.
 

Shadowfox

You look like you need a monkey
Tifa: “Hey Cloud, you wanna come over and f—”

Cloud: “YES.”

Tifa: “—ix my water filter with me?”

Cloud: “Dammit.”
Game Gengo did a lesson on the Alone At Last scene in Japanese last year, and he also commented on the romantic/suggestive undertones that were not in the English localisation.

Anyway, now for my non-LTD related comment, but the novels really put a lot of new nuances in Tifa's scenes in Sector 7. Like in this particular scene, when she invited Cloud out and to get dressed up and he asked, "Really/Dressed up?". She stepped back and hugged herself a bit. Honestly, it looked like a bit of a defensive posture when I first watched this scene. At first, I wondered if maybe she was a bit shy of her plain outfit or something. But now knowing about her extreme poverty, that she'd had to scrimp and save every bit of money to survive and repay her medical bills (Ruckus more than deserved to get his ass kicked) and that she just could not afford to let herself use even a bit of her money for lighthearted or trivial things back then... Well, her defensive posture at being reminded of her terrible circumstances during her early Midgar years becomes more than understandable. That she suggested going all out to get fancy with Cloud, though, also makes me a bit glad. She's so happy to be with him again! Just like him, she's finally allowing herself to open up, letting down some of her own walls!
 
I’m sure some of us would be similarly disappointed if how we understood the story turned out to be wrong, though I like to think I wouldn’t react nearly as badly.
I'll admit that's one thing I miss about the OG. As weird as some interpretations were, things like how Tifa felt about Cloud in their childhood before the promise were open to interpretation, and there was a decent portion of the fan base who interpreted it the "wrong" way. There was something intriguing about the plausible different ideas and why one would see things in certain ways. Right now it's so unambiguous that alternative interpretations have become... Uhh... entertaining in a different way.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
On the other hand, I'm not sure I will miss people calling Tifa names and say she was a bully, that she and Cloud were never friends and never *ever* talked together when it seemed to me logical that they did, especially before her mum died, but it wasn't covered. In a small village like this it seemed the most obvious answer but people went way over their heads there.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
Yes, the shutting down of alternative possibilities isn't fun.
In concept I’d agree, provided this was ever meant to be that kind of game in the first place. I don’t particularly care for dating sim type games but I think if the devs wanted to make that kind of game in the first place, they’d provide more viable options for an Aerith “route” even if she still ends up dying.

Granted, there’s people who still swear by the “Cloud wants to live with Aerith in the Promised Land” idea, but because that only really works if you ignore everything about Tifa, it also means ignoring or skewing the story that the devs chose to write. For as surprised as people are about the new book, it’s not exactly the first time the devs have been upfront about it.

If I were making a version of this game where the romance really was up to the player, I’d make the statements in the ultimanias more vague, I’d make the entire under the Highwind scene optional and not just the dialogue, I might include more dialogue options post-Lifestream that allow the player to mold Cloud’s feelings between Tifa and Aerith, hell, I might even find a way to rewrite the Lifestream scene so that Aerith or Jessie lmao jk is the one saving Cloud. But alas, this ain’t the Witcher 3.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Yup, as I already said in this thread, I feel particularly annoyed when non-shippers say that FFVII is an otome game. It's not. It's insulting, towards the devs, towards the game, towards the characters. But it's a very widespread mentality, and I really don't know why when the devs are extra clear about the canon. You can totally ship clerith. But to pretend Cloud doesn't end up with Tifa, the love of his life, is insulting towards Cloud, who isn't an arsehole, towards Tifa, who deserves better, towards Aerith, to pretend she'd enjoy this situation.
 

BoxFBall

Lv. 25 Adventurer
I mean I don't think the developers wanted to have to take away the ambiguity more than they had no choice, but to take it away. The story has been the story for 20+ years and instead of accepting it, fans have twisted every little thing in this story to fit their narrative instead of just accepting what was already there.

If I was a writer and the fans were perverting my work like that I'd have to take drastic actions eventually to stop it all too. For this game to not be about romance and relationships, from what I'm seeing until the Remake came out the most interesting/talked about thing about this game still was the LTD... even with the remake out and a bunch of new possibilities it still is talked about a lot.
 
Well it's interesting to some people.
I've always known what I think about it and the only reason I ever get involved in LTD discussions is because I enjoy a good argument.
Arguing with people who aren't open to reason isn't a good argument, however.
Leaving stuff open for interpretation IS fun; discussing and comparing interpretations is fun; it's not the job of the creator to make sure that everybody comes away from their work with exactly the same understanding and interpretation, which would be impossible anyway. But as per usual the extremists ruin it for everyone else.
 
I would love to see the fans who insist that Tifa was a bully write a believable fanfic explaining how she ended up as the Tifa we see in the lifestream and AC. It's probably possible, something about after losing everything she became a better person or some crap like that, but it appears that many in that camp don't actually think she's a good person, even in the later parts of the game.

While the "wrong" interpreters come to terms with the new reality, I'll just have to come to terms with the fact that a bunch of that ambiguity stuff I enjoyed is just not here to stay, and partly thanks to crazy fans. Everytime the crazy fan base touches me, I lose a part of my love for the game :mon:
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
After reading the last Aerith's part in the novel, I am more than sure that the devs are out to kill the LTD. I mean I didn't have any doubt about this, but Nojima's been hammering that down. He killed the "Cloud and Tifa were never childhood friends!", the "Tifa was a bully!", the "Tifa only fell in love with Cloud because she wanted a hero!", but now with this line:

"Nope. It is because I still can meet her."

He's also out to kill those who think that Cloud's searching for Aerith after the end of the game. :mon:
 
They may be out to kill the LTD, but I really don't think they intend us to believe that Cloud didn't love both women. They are both very lovable, after all. The thing is, he never reached a point where he consciously had to chose between them. He never had to ask himself, "Who will be my partner, this one, or this one?" He may not even have fully realised what he felt for Aerith until after the Temple of the Ancients' debacle, or maybe not even until after her death, when those feelings were compounded and confused by grief and profound guilt. If she had lived, who knows what might have happened? But that's not the story that happened. Tifa healed him, he moved on with her (two steps forward, one step back admittedly), and both of them cherished Aerith's memory because they both loved her.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Yeah but I'm personally of the opinion that he did not really fall in love with Aerith. Was he attracted? Definitely. Crushing a bit? Most probably. In love? No. I just don't see it, not when the OG points out how he misunderstood Aerith (once he's back to his old self) compared to Tifa who knew her better. And even if Aerith lived, I don't think he'd chose her, not when he's been in love with Tifa for all these years. We're talking about a 3 weeks relationship versus a whole life of developping true feelings of love for Tifa and off to kill Sephiroth because he thought she was dead. I've said it a few posts before, but the great love story of FFVII that trumps it all *is* cloti, make no mistake, and Nojima is set to develop it way beyond what we thought he would with ToTP. I look at it more in the way those two relationships are shown and developped throughout the OG and its Compilation + Remake rather than just "oh Aerith is lovely, of course he'd fall in love with her". That doesn't sit well with me because that sounds like Cloud could fall in love with anybody, really, since all the girls in FFVII are awesome. It's just such a weak argument to me.
 
I'm not going to disagree with you. We all have our interpretations and if they are congruent with the evidence then one isnt any more right or wrong than another. If Aerith had lived, I can imagine a scenario in which she and Cloud end up together and a scenario in which they don't. Cloud/Tifa IS the great love story of the game; like I said, that's the story which is told. Any potential Cloud and Aerith had to create a narrative together was cut short - but that also is part of the message of the game. What he lost was not just what they had at the moment but what could have been. And now it can't be, ever.

Female characters I don't think Cloud could have fallen in love with include: Mme M (too overbearing); Kyrie (too annoying); Yufie (a child); Scarlet (too evil); Marle (too old); Elmyra (ditto); Ms Folia (she's nice, but she's not in Tifa and Aerith's league); Elena (murder hamster); Jessie (she's a player in every sense of the word)... Did I miss any?
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
If Aerith had lived, I can imagine a scenario in which she and Cloud end up together and a scenario in which they don't.
I can't see that happening with Tifa around (there's a reason why a certain portion of the fanbase has suggested that Tifa might be the girl who dies this time around). But I feel that your scenario would very much feel like TW3 - when you don't chose Yen, actually, it feels *very* wrong. When you chose Yen, everything falls into place - yes, she's the canon outcome, so it explains that, but even when you don't follow that path, you feel really bad for her. While that might have worked in the OG, it wouldn't be the case in Remake because if you truly look at it... they took *off* options. In fact you don't have much choice, LT-wise. What you chose to answer the NPC? It has no importance at all. What matters is the number of sidequests you do with the girls and who you wake up in the sewers. And all the resolutions are canon anyway. You're supposed to get close to both girls, no matter who you chose.

The game doesn't leave us any choice, in fact, over the LT. You're supposed to get *everything*. Cloud hugs Tifa (it's romantic, and it's true Cloud showing up), he listens to Barret before dreaming of Aerith. You get all of this. Even if you skip it, the game considers that it happened anyway. Cloud will say he feels called. Madam M will tell you people have seen a weird guy in Elmyra's garden (or something alike). Tifa will give hope to Leslie with the flower. The game is telling you that all the resolutions happened, whether you want it or not, as the player.

I think fans tend to forget 2 things from the OG that are absolutely all you need to argue for the LTD:

- Cloud tells Tifa that it's only her opinion that counts. At that time it's before he even finds himself back, so that's how he feels regarding both Aerith and Tifa, while his feelings are still hidden. In my first playthrough, I thought he preferred Aerith, but he was suddenly saying something so bold?

- The Lifestream scene is the resolve of Cloud's feelings, the answer to the LT. May you have been paying attention to her or not, it's Tifa whom he loves. I've seen plenty of times some cleriths wishing Aerith would help Cloud instead of Tifa, and I'm like "are you crazy? So that she'd witness how his head is full of Tifa? You want to hurt her that bad?"

With just those two scenes, you should realise that there is no "LT" at all. That cleriths ship clerith and enjoy their interactions (they are cute and made to be enjoyed), and invent AU worlds for them, I have absolutely no intention of stopping them. Shipping should be fun and about enjoying your ship. Should they come and treat like Cloud doesn't care about Tifa, that the only thing he wants is to meet up with Aerith in the Lifestream, that FFVII should be interpreted as an otome game should, is absolutely where I draw the line because... that's not FFVII. That's not the story about loss and how you deal with it. That literally goes against the very core message of FFVII. And these characters are definitely not Cloud, Tifa and Aerith.
 

a_apple 2.0

Pro Adventurer
AKA
a_apple
They may be out to kill the LTD, but I really don't think they intend us to believe that Cloud didn't love both women. They are both very lovable, after all. The thing is, he never reached a point where he consciously had to chose between them. He never had to ask himself, "Who will be my partner, this one, or this one?" He may not even have fully realised what he felt for Aerith until after the Temple of the Ancients' debacle, or maybe not even until after her death, when those feelings were compounded and confused by grief and profound guilt. If she had lived, who knows what might have happened? But that's not the story that happened. Tifa healed him, he moved on with her (two steps forward, one step back admittedly), and both of them cherished Aerith's memory because they both loved her.
I agree with this, the remake makes clear that Cloud has romantic feelings for both girls, like people should be able to admit this. Call it love, attraction, a crush, whatever the fact of the matter is that both girls have a deep emotional connection to Cloud while all 3 are thirsty as fuck.
They all would work with each other relationship wise, there is no better or worse. One is very pushy the other is very patient but both are compatible with Clouds persona, hell I think even Jessie would have worked if the other two peaced out for some reason and she turned the teasing down a notch.
The only reason why I would say that Tifa is the "one" for Cloud, is because of his story and because of what kind of character he is, not personality wise but in a narrative sense.

Cloud is someone who struggles throughout the story of FF7 (and even up to AC) with his individuality, that's the point of his story. After what happened to him he doesn't know who or what he really is (and even that fact he doesn't know till much later in the game lol).
He doesn't know where his story starts and where it really ends and if it really is his story, even Clouds feelings are partly sealed off and not "his" anymore. What is a part of him and what is a part of him due to Jenova/Zack/Sephiroth/Mako poisoning?
The only thing Cloud is sure about is to Destroy Sephiroth that's the one thing he knows he has to do, but even that turns in the end out to be all smoke and mirrors, he gets manipulated by Sephiroth and Jenova into pursuing them because of his mental state. Like he does his name truly justice, in a sense there is nothing solid in him, he is a very empty person (dare I say HOLLOW :mon:)
So the fact that Clouds feelings for Tifa are from a part of his life back when he was sure who he was and what he really wanted gives her a very unique position in Clouds life.
The fact that those feelings he has for her are so steady and consistent through out his life while also being something so personal and dear to him, gives Tifa a completely different meaning compared to the other girls. Tifa isn't just a love interest anymore, she is the prove of who Cloud really is. And for a character like Cloud who, like I said before struggles so much with his individuality she literally is the perfect match (almost like she was specifically written for this role :monster:) that's why I think the devs keep connecting Tifa with the idea of home. She is literally Clouds home something of a safe harbor, something that grounds him back to reality.
 
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