SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[Eerie]

@LicoriceAllsorts yeah that's bizarre but Aerith has been so sheltered and was considered by most as a weirdo and Zack was never here so I guess she is still very child-like. She's missing a big part of her "growing up" and "discovering the world" thing there. I think that part of the game - both OG and Remake - will follow her on those discoveries. Because for the first time she has normal chats with girls, she discovers the outside world, everything is truly an exciting adventure to her.

And @Final_Heaven I don't feel that they were especially trying to make it ambiguous. Even AC, my clerith friend keeps saying it screams "couple problem" to her, they are presented as a couple and their problem is resolved by the end of the movie. The fact that it's badly edited and that Cloud's motivations were badly presented (in short that they wanted a kicking arse movie) didn't prevent them from showcasing them as a couple in the few parts they could. That yin and yang imagery, right there, was screaming "THEY ARE A COUPLE LOOK AT THIS BEAUTIFUL IMAGE". Anyone thinking they were platonic after such picture simply don't want to understand the message the devs were trying to give.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

The fact that Nojima gave Cloud and Tifa adopted kids is pretty telling to me that Cloud and/or Tifa can't have kids.

Also rule of anime lol
As soon as a female character gets a kid, she is basically out of the story, so giving Tifa denzel and Marlene, was probably the only way to explore a family issues story plot while still having Tifa being a active part of the main squad

 

[Eerie]

I was just discussing this theme with Peko lol. Because Tifa had a very traditional and conservative upbringing, her fearing that they aren't a real family in CoT is a testament of that. It plays right into her fears. But given that 2 years later for DoC she still isn't pregnant, I think it's probably not happening elsewhere than fanfiction.

What's also interesting apparently is that no one gets married. From what Peko just told me (it's hot news guys!) no one gets married. They get together and become a de facto couple, but don't get married. Which.. well it makes sense. The god(s) of the planet are forgotten - no one prays them anymore, according to Aerith's part of the novel. Who else is left for marrying people? The mayors? Doubtful, given the towns and villages of the OG universe...

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Nice try everybody but I still don't buy it. I don't see any evidence of Aerith being sheltered. She grew up in the slums, she's street-wise, she knows what goes on in Wall Market, she knows exactly what Corneo's after and what his men want with the 'leftovers' and she 's not fazed by it. She can defend herself. Plus she's had at least one boyfriend. Even if she and Zack didn't have sex, which I hope they did because sex is nice and a good way to share love with your loved one, there is just absolutely no way she would have reached the age of 22 without ever once thinking about the prospect of having a child - her mother's grandchild - to whom she could pass on that 'useless' white materia. Elmyra seems like a pretty street-wise sort herself - do you think she'd have allowed Aerith to wallow in ignorance? You can bet they had The Talk when Zack appeared in her life, if not before.

The line can't be unwritten now, but it strikes a rare false note in this novel.

@ Eerie: the novels don't address the question of natural children one way or the other, but we shouldn't assume Cloud and Tifa were trying to have children. Why would they? They may well have thought that a post-meteor world infested with geostigma wasn't a good place to bring children into. Cloud still needs taking care of and they both have businesses to build, not to mention an entire world to rebuild. They're young - they can afford to wait ten years or even more before trying. I don't think we need to assume that Marlene and Denzel are substitutes for the children they can't have.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Nice try everybody but I still don't buy it. I don't see any evidence of Aerith being sheltered. She grew up in the slums, she's street-wise, she knows what goes on in Wall Market, she knows exactly what Corneo's after and what his men want with the 'leftovers' and she 's not fazed by it. She can defend herself. Plus she's had at least one boyfriend. Even if she and Zack didn't have sex, which I hope they did because sex is nice and a good way to share love with your loved one, there is just absolutely no way she would have reached the age of 22 without ever once thinking about the prospect of having a child - her mother's grandchild - to whom she could pass on that 'useless' white materia. Elmyra seems like a pretty street-wise sort herself - do you think she'd have allowed Aerith to wallow in ignorance? You can bet they had The Talk when Zack appeared in her life, if not before.

The line can't be unwritten now, but it strikes a rare false note in this novel.

There is always a huge emphasis on Aerith being innocent and shit in her bios tho
I mean in some way this has to be expressed and obviously the way how the girls are portrayed has a lot to do with idol culture. Like Tifa and Aerith have almost zero sexual drive like c'mon they both are good looking women in their 20s

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Yes, I don't get this official emphasis on Aerith being 'innocent' when she so obviously isn't. The only way she could live the life she does and remain 'innocent' would be if she was a simpleton, and she's not. Are we supposed to think she isn't interested in sex? Doesn't like sex? Doesn't want sex? Why would we wish that on such a beloved character?

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Yes, I don't get this official emphasis on Aerith being 'innocent' when she so obviously isn't. The only way she could live the life she does and remain 'innocent' would be if she was a simpleton, and she's not. Are we supposed to think she isn't interested in sex? Doesn't like sex? Doesn't want sex? Why would we wish that on such a beloved character?

Yes. Cuz we follow the rules of anime here

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

They are rather creepy rules tbh.

 

[Phantasia]

There might come a day where she would no longer be ‘the final descendant of the Cetra’. She imagined that scenario in astonishment and fixed her eyes on Tifa. She then flustered ―

When I read this I thought she was astonished with the idea of having kids because of her knowledge of her dead. We already know she has knowledge of future events, and her resolution screams "I'm gonna push forward, even if it cost my life, for the sake of the planet".

She was flustered with the idea of having kids because, after already "giving up", she was talking with Tifa about a different future. I see no Cloud in this equation, what I see is a young girl, knowing she's going to die soon, wanting to live more than anyone else.

This is my interpretation, maybe because her whole story breaks my heart. A young girl so full of life, haunted by her own future (and not telling anyone, so fighting those feelings on her own too).

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

That's a better reading. Thank you.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

They are rather creepy rules tbh.

Well that happens when you consume mass media from a different culture that (at least in some aspects) doesn't put the same emphasis on themes and ideas that are important in our society

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Hmm, I think rules that hypersexualise young women while simultaneously making them totally innocent and asexual, are pretty creepy because they're so far removed from anybody's reality*. It's saying, "here, lust after these gorgeous creatures secure in the knowledge that they will never lust after anybody in return." Now you might say it's not my place to judge and you might be right; however, it seems a lot of Japanese people find these rules pretty creepy too. Japan is well known for its misogyny, which many Japanese women and some men are fighting against.

*I mean, you just have to look at the number of Japanese, Chinese, and Korean women who are super into yaoi and original gay fiction published online to see that they are VERY interested in sex. This stuff is erotic. You can be sure there was yaoi doujinshi featuring Angeal, Genesis and Sephiroth circulating around Midgar and you can be sure Aerith had some copies hidden under her pillow.

Sexual assault at the workplace was normalised in our society for generations, but it was still a creepy rule. Objectification of women, especially when combined with denying and punishing their sexual appetites, is creepy no matter what society you come from.

 

[Makoeyes987]

There is always a huge emphasis on Aerith being innocent and shit in her bios tho
I mean in some way this has to be expressed and obviously the way how the girls are portrayed has a lot to do with idol culture. Like Tifa and Aerith have almost zero sexual drive like c'mon they both are good looking women in their 20s

What bios are you talking about? Because no where is she called or emphasized with the term "innocent." And it's certainly not the Remake bios. The Japanese Ultimania bios for her emphasize her being kind but also mischievous and playful. And Nojima has always characterized and described Aerith as playful and flirty. If anyone is modest, it's Tifa because she's shy, but she clearly isn't that shy given what she wore to her mountain guide job when she thought Cloud was coming. I don't know where anyone is getting this idea that they're trying to make her or Tifa innocent.

The only implications I got from Aerith never thinking about children is the fact she never pictured herself having a future that far into her life. It's not about being innocent about sex, it's about her not seeing a future where she carries on the Cetra legacy. An unconscious pessimism of her future. @Phantasia hit the nail on the head as well. There's nothing going around about innocence here, they're very much aware of reality and what they're looking for.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

What bios are you talking about? Because no where is she called or emphasized with the term "innocent." And it's certainly not the Remake bios. The Japanese Ultimania bios for her emphasize her being kind but also mischievous and playful. And Nojima has always characterized and described Aerith as playful and flirty. If anyone is modest, it's Tifa because she's shy, but she clearly isn't that shy given what she wore to her mountain guide job when she thought Cloud was coming. I don't know where anyone is getting this idea that they're trying to make her or Tifa innocent.

The only implications I got from Aerith never thinking about children is the fact she never pictured herself having a future that far into her life. It's not about being innocent about sex, it's about her not seeing a future where she carries on the Cetra legacy. An unconscious pessimism of her future. @Phantasia hit the nail on the head as well. There's nothing going around about innocence here, they're very much aware of reality and what they're looking for.

It's literally in her newest profile description

 

[Makoeyes987]

Audrey translated that as "pure of heart" before.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1255389082223554562

That's the same profile she been had for the Remake, just republished. It's stating she's an optimist and good person. The translator rendered that as "innocent" which also, kinda-sorta works but nowhere else is she deemed "innocent." Certainly not in any other FFVII profile. So I wouldn't say that there's this "emphasis" on her being innocent. She's just a kind, good hearted optimist.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Audrey translated that as "pure of heart" before.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1255389082223554562

That's the same profile she been had for the Remake, just republished. It's stating she's an optimist and good person. The translator rendered that as "innocent" which also, kinda-sorta works but nowhere else is she deemed "innocent." Certainly not in any other FFVII profile. So I wouldn't say that there's this "emphasis" on her being innocent. She's just a kind, good hearted optimist.

dude we literally have the translation of her 10th anniversary profile page on this site where it says again:

In Final Fantasy VII

Living her life to the best she could:
An innocent and mysterious “Cetra.”
https://thelifestream.net/lifestrea...aerith-gainsborough-character-profile-p48-51/
lol
Edit:
also pure of heart=innocent

 

[Makoeyes987]

So you're going to ignore that the actual profile calls her "overflowing with brightness and sometimes mischief?"

That's just a lead in description of how her role appeared in FFVII, but that's not in her actual descriptive profile that describes or introduces her. Which is what matters. I forgot that sentence exists but you could look anywhere else and the commentary Nojima and Nomura give about Aerith and they emphasize her playful and flirty nature with Cloud. She's not described as some innocent child.

And that's still not multiple profiles. That's one translation someone else chose to render "pure of heart" as innocent, and then this sentence which is only in the descriptive intro sentence and not the actual profile text itself. I imagine it's the same situation of "pure of heart" vs. "innocent."

also pure of heart=innocent

That's definitely not true. A pure heart means a heart not filled or carrying bad or ill intent. That describes Aerith. Having flirty, mischievous or playful moments doesn't make one less pure of heart. That's not what that means at all. You can be pure of heart and flirtatious. Why would that be mutually exclusive??

 

[a_apple 2.0]

So you're going to ignore that the actual profile calls her "overflowing with brightness and sometimes mischief?"

That's a just lead in description of how her role appeared in FFVII, but that's not in her actual descriptive profile that describes or introduces her. Which is what matters. I forgot that sentence exists but you could look anywhere else and the commentary Nojima and Nomura give about Aerith and they emphasize her playful and flirty nature with Cloud. She's not described as some innocent child.

...So you are ignoring two instances where she is called innocent even though you claimed before that she was never called something like that in her profiles which was in reaction to my post where the only thing I stated was that there is a emphasis of calling Aerith innocent and that this has to be somehow expressed in the story? Ah Classic Mako

Edit:

ngl I bet if I kept looking for more Aerith profiles I would find even more instances where she is getting called innocent

 

[Makoeyes987]

...So you are ignoring two instances where she is called innocent even though you claimed before that she was never called that in her profiles which was in reaction to my post where the only thing I stated was that there is a emphasis of calling Aerith innocent and that this has to be somehow expressed in the story? Ah Classic Mako

...One only is an alternate rendering of "pure of heart" which is what Audrey translated as, directly. And the 10th Anniversary profile I already said I forgot but even then, that's the tagline sentence opening the FFVII portion. The actual profile text, describes her actual character differently. That's not the same thing. And again, you're ignoring all the other times Aerith has been clearly stated to be the exact opposite. Aerith isn't about being naive or "innocent," you're placing way too much emphasis on 1.5 lines using that word.

In fact, the creators even emphasize this point by saying:

Aerith has the innocence of a young girl....But there is a gap between her appearance and inner personality, with her aspects of “innocence” and “beauty.” On the other hand, Tifa has a bold costume that exposes her a lot, but she actually isn’t that confident.

Meaning, they meant to subvert that appearance. Aerith comes off looking innocent, but she's in reality not. That's the inversion that exists between Tifa and Aerith. Tifa is more "innocent" and shy than Aerith.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

...One only is an alternate rendering of "pure of heart" which is what Audrey translated as, directly. And the 10th Anniversary profile I already said I forgot but even then, that's the tagline sentence opening the FFVII portion. The actual profile text, describes her actual character differently. That's not the same thing. And again, you're ignoring all the other times Aerith has been clearly stated to be the exact opposite. Aerith isn't about being naive or "innocent," you're placing way too much emphasis on 1.5 lines using that word.

hell yeah keep shifting that goal post

 

[Makoeyes987]

Hey, you're the one that said there's "multiple profiles" and "emphasis!" There's an alternate translation of one that Audrey did first, and the 10th Anniversary Ultimania that gave a blurb describing her role in FFVII with that word. And even then, as the writers have stated, that's meant as a subversion.

There's no official "emphasis" on Aerith actually being innocent.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

lol

 

[null]

you're ignoring

Oh my lordy lord, that comment section. What a time capsule. I completely forgot about Aerith living in Cloud's head... brain cells lost and found and... now lost again.

Also that first person pronouns entry is pretty neat. Apparently Cloud is not very a polite guy.

 

[Torrie]

There might come a day where she would no longer be ‘the final descendant of the Cetra’. She imagined that scenario in astonishment and fixed her eyes on Tifa. She then flustered ―

When I read this I thought she was astonished with the idea of having kids because of her knowledge of her dead. We already know she has knowledge of future events, and her resolution screams "I'm gonna push forward, even if it cost my life, for the sake of the planet".

That's what I thought, too. Besides, my take on that is that Aerith lives with the knowledge that she is the last Cetra. The last half-Cetra, to be precise, because the last pure-blooded one died before her own eyes.

She might have never thought that there might be other Cetras in the world, which means there's still a possibility for her to meet someone from her race and start a family. In this scenario, she would be saved by the bell because Zack is long gone, and if she'd had kids with him, I'm sure she thought they would have been normal human beings without unique Cetra abilities, and she would have had to choose between having a good time with someone she loves or preserving her race with someone she doesn't have any emotional attachment to.

Or what if she realises that she still might fall in love again and even have kids and live a happy life while we assume she hasn't quite moved on and keeps missing Zack every single day, and that emotionally constipated blondie doesn't quite fit her already experienced relationship model (and is attracted to another girl anyway).

Or indeed she knows she's going to die, but it's not quite certain if the white materia is to be passed on from Cetra to Cetra before the owner's death and she definitely doesn't have the time, but maybe she thinks hey, hold on, maybe I won't die this time around?

 

[frosty]

It was KindofBlue who said that, not me.

Eek. I'm sorry!

The fact that Nojima gave Cloud and Tifa adopted kids is pretty telling to me that Cloud and/or Tifa can't have kids.

Err...I don't think that was the case at all. It's not like they sat down and said, hey, we've been married for a while and IVF isn't working out for us. Lets go pick out a child from the Leaf Orphanage. Marlene was literally just handed over to them from Barret. Denzel kinda just popped up at the church and Tifa said bring him home, like a lost puppy.

I think the Cloud/Tifa can't have kids stem from a lot of strange fanfiction just assuming that Mako hampers Cloud's fertility and used to create Cloti angst. (Which was a really strange thing to stumble upon, and also, factually incorrect, because Hojo also clearly says they were planning to breed cetra and SOLDIERS)

That, and what others said about AC being an action movie / keeping romantic intentions ambiguous. Unfortunately, Tifa ain't Gal Gadot's Wonder Woman who can outsource her stunts to a double while being pregnant

There might come a day where she would no longer be ‘the final descendant of the Cetra’. She imagined that scenario in astonishment and fixed her eyes on Tifa. She then flustered ―

What @Phantasia and @Torrie said. It's safe enough to think that say Aerith never thought about having kids despite being in a relationship, the same way Yuna never thought about having kids - because their sense of duty is large, and it just didn't seem like an option presented to the last of her kind.

That sentence also has 0 indication of Cloud's feelings towards Aerith. If the continuation to that sentence was...She imagined that scenario in astonishment and thought of blonde, green-eyed babies...then yes, that'd leave no room for interpretation

Like Tifa and Aerith have almost zero sexual drive like c'mon they both are good looking women in their 20s

I just chalk it up to the FF series generally having teenage main characters and their age rating constraints not being able to depict more maturity in relationships - which includes sex.

Even in FFX2.5 Tidus and Yuna who are...18/19 by now? SE also gives them a vague fade to black...and it's written in such a juvenile manner. And the depiction of the whole sex-fayth method was so...politely described.