SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
I guess I understand wanting to really dig into Cloud/Aerith and what makes them tick and what could have been, but not the need to tear down Cloud/Tifa or somehow to prove that the other one is better and obviously more canon, same for any pairing combination.
I will say that Cloud and Aerith have a lot more going for them than a crack ship. That relationship was deliberately framed as a viable couple only to later be subverted which probably amplifies the LTD further, the fact that one ship had all these tropes thrown at the audiences (doubly so in the remake) and had all of the potential in the world yet ultimately ends in tragedy. Some people take solace in the idea that “death doesn’t truly separate people in fantasy” but seeing as that’s the whole point with Aerith’s death, some people just won’t accept the story for what it is.
 

Pandemonium

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
Some people take solace in the idea that “death doesn’t truly separate people in fantasy” but seeing as that’s the whole point with Aerith’s death, some people just won’t accept the story for what it is
This is why I'd like to see some stuff from "maiden who travels the planet" make it into remake. If we see Aerith/Zack have some sort of romantic interaction within the lifestream, maybe those Clerith's will get some closure
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Well, as I told Peko, to me, Zerith is lightly hinted at but it has no resolution. The last we see from Aerith is that she loves Cloud in Lifestream White, and we only have the words that Zack hangs out with her at all times. The ending of ACC, IMHO, will be developped in Remake; because what are Aerith's feelings regarding Zack? To me, it does feel that one of the reasons we still see Zack like this at the end of Remake is that this will be answered. And given ACC, I can totally see the love that transcends death. Sure, being dead in the Lifestream kind of kill the joy, but it does give closure. To me, Zerith is the "happy but difficult" love Aerith has, and it will be glorified.

I don't think we'll see anything from Maiden, but I do feel that we will see them reunite in the Lifestream and it will answer a lot of questions.
 

Thenir

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nirnaeth
This is why I'd like to see some stuff from "maiden who travels the planet" make it into remake.
I'd really like to see Aerith's time in the Lifestream - and I'd say that part 1 already set up the premises for this arc, but honestly I'm ok with the devs keeping ignoring Maiden as they've always done.
 

Pandemonium

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
I don't think we'll see anything from Maiden, but I do feel that we will see them reunite in the Lifestream and it will answer a lot of questions.
This is what I mean by saying I hope we see elements of MWTtP. If they do reunite in the Lifestream, that would be taken from MWTtP, right?

I'd really like to see Aerith's time in the Lifestream - and I'd say that part 1 already set up the premises for this arc, but honestly I'm ok with the devs keeping ignoring Maiden as they've always done.
I wouldn't mind if it doesn't get included either. I just think it's something that would be cool to see
 
I will say that Cloud and Aerith have a lot more going for them than a crack ship. That relationship was deliberately framed as a viable couple only to later be subverted which probably amplifies the LTD further, the fact that one ship had all these tropes thrown at the audiences (doubly so in the remake) and had all of the potential in the world yet ultimately ends in tragedy.
In all honesty, for all the things Cloud and Aerith had going on, the shipping wars could be a lot worse. I've seen really big communities of people shipping characters that have barely talked to each other, indulging themselves if very... questionable behavior (Erehisus *cough cough*...).

I'd really like to see Aerith's time in the Lifestream - and I'd say that part 1 already set up the premises for this arc, but honestly I'm ok with the devs keeping ignoring Maiden as they've always done.
I actually prefer if they don't include that. I feel that it takes away the pain that we as the audience experience from the dead of one of our characters. That feeling of loss and emptiness I got from that empty slot in the menu will instatly vanish the moment I see her again before the end of the story. I really liked the way OG did it.

Also, not a big fan of Lifestream Black and Lifestream White, but that's just me.
 

Stiggie

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Stiggie
This is why I'd like to see some stuff from "maiden who travels the planet" make it into remake. If we see Aerith/Zack have some sort of romantic interaction within the lifestream, maybe those Clerith's will get some closure
I think that's one of the worst parts of Maiden to be honest, I generally read Aeriths lines towards Zack as being playfully teasing rather than distant, but it still had a silly focus on Cloud imo. I don't like main character syndrome where everything in everyones life revolves around the main character, even when they're not in the room. Aerith just reunited with the man she'd waited for for years, someone she loved, someone dead, regardless of how she felt about Cloud and Zack at that point, that moment all her focus should have been on Zack and the fact that she's seeing him again.
Even if she now loved Cloud she still should have ran towards him, you think if my platonic friend suddenly dissapeared for 5 years and I see him again that I'd be talking about my girlfriend? NO! I'd hug that motherfucker for all he's worth while crying my eyes out.
The fact that Aerith DOES clearly still love Zack makes the scene all the more weird.


I actually prefer if they don't include that. I feel that it takes away the pain that we as the audience experience from the dead of one of our characters. That feeling of loss and emptiness I got from that empty slot in the menu will instatly vanish the moment I see her again before the end of the story. I really liked the way OG did it.
This, in me opinion every single instance that they showed Aerith after her death lessened the importance and impact of her death. This is one of the things I really dislike Cleriths for most (and fans in general). People always say that the opinions of the fans don't matter, that the authors write what they want to write, but that's bs. The reaction of fans influences writers, and especially corporations. Even at the most obvious level, had FFVII not been successful then there would be no advent children or remake. That is a direct example of fans influencing the future story of FFVII.
And I have no doubt that a big reason Aeriths corps gets trodden out again and again is because fans refuse to let go of her, thereby lessening her character.

Aerith was handled perfectly in the OG, a single shot of her arm, and a single close-up of her face, THAT was gorgeous, honestly, Advent children should have done the same, show water droplets, sure. Let Cloud talk to himself, but don't show Aerith except for the one shot of her arm throwing him towards Bahamut, and MAYBE her walking into the light.

For remake, after her death I want to see MAYBE one short clip of her meeting Zack again, but no more.
I personally think Aerith will sacrifice herself in the remake, which means that she'll likely get one of those "satisfying death" tropes. Emotionally I think something similar to Zack being reunited with Angeal is probably suitable.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
The fact that the devs want so much new players to play the OG and experience Aerith's death is probably to me the hint that they won't handle it the same way this time and that we'll see her in the Lifestream. We'll see I guess, but in a way, Aerith from chapter 14 is already the Aerith who has died, so in a way, we already saw her after her death ;)

This is also the reason why I don't think that Aerith will sacrifice herself - because I don't think Aerith knows that she's going to die. The Aerith who knows it is already dead, so it's normal that we have that heavy feeling in her resolution. It's also very interesting that Aerith that we know is disconnected from the Lifestream after chapter 18; will her wish of not falling in love with Cloud be able to become reality? Or is she doomed, just like in the OG. It all depends on how much the scenario is changed, because her feelings for Cloud are not vital for the story to go on.

Now though, I'd like to come back to the sewers scene; I probably have made a mistake because I saw the EN translations being discussed and it made me want to tell about a theory that we have with @odekopeko - as a result this is my way of answering that Twitter storm I have inadvertendly created. I want to tell those clotis fans that I have analysed the game since it came out - I had the luck to watch it in French first - I have always integrated what the Ultimanias said to try to understand what message the devs wanted to tell (both on the LT side as well as oh, the rest), I have fought here and elsewhere in this forum many times (I'm as headstrong as MakoEyes lol), my point of view has evolved a lot until I completely integrated ToTP in my analysis. If you have beef with what I'm going to say, *do not bother Peko*, come here and talk. I am not going to talk in Twitter, I hate the format, it's not made for that (beside that my Twitter is private because it is my private Twitter that I use to chat with friends).

So the sewer scene is a scene we have discussed *a lot* with Peko, because, being Japanese, she played first in Japanese, so her impressions to me were more important than mine, notably because the translations may not be 100% true to the Japanese. It's also worth to note that she has read Japanese cloti fans gushing about Tifa being jealous there, so she is not the only one who interpreted that scene this way, and Tifa being jealous is not meant to be taken negatively. So, what did the scene convey?

Mostly, it does convey doubt, suspiscion. Why does Aerith want to help them? It's weird. So just like Cloud was suspiscious of Aerith in chapter 2, Tifa also is suspiscious of her. But there is more to that scene than just this. Tifa also worries about Aerith - and the underlying feeling is also that Tifa is not only suspiscious of Aerith herself, but also of Cloud and Aerith's relationship - is it the reason why she's willing to help them? "How did you know her?" is a question she asks and that has more implications than just being worried about Aerith. And Cloud is embarrassed because as much as he doesn't want Tifa to misunderstand, he also and mainly doesn't want to look weak ("I fell through the roof of a church, I needed her help to get out, and needed her help to come back because I'd get lost without her" doesn't sound so heroic), hence his vague answer.

Now let's get to it; we see Tifa being jealous as so negative because in the OG this trait was pushed too far - just like Aerith's flirtiness was pushed too far. Those two traits have been vastly toned down, but it doesn't mean that they don't exist still. They still are part of the characters. We accept Cloud's jealousy with the guys who hit on Tifa as a good thing, so why can't we accept that Tifa feeling jealous is also a sign of her feelings towards Cloud? My guess is that's because the other character is Aerith, and because int he OG this was painted as too negative. But here it's nothing like that.

Here what we have, is romantic tension created by the devs. When Cloud answers, he is vague because he does not want Tifa to misunderstand his relationship with Aerith. They do not have the time to resolve that tension, and so Tifa is left with her uneasiness and Cloud still walking on eggshells. This is why in chapter 10 we mostly focus on the girls' friendship - which the tension does NOT alter, which proves my point that this is not a negative - it's because Cloud doesn't really try to interact with them. He doesn't know if his explanation was enough - Tifa still looked suspiscious, even if worried for Aerith - so there's that.

In chapter 11, this romantic tension heightens when they fall through the wagon; as I have fought enough here about this scene, you all know how it happens:

- Cloud sees both girls, Aerith getting up and Tifa still down
- he asks BOTH how they are
- Aerith answers, which leads Cloud to nod at her
- Tifa sees that and thinks he only asked Aerith, and having indeed hurt herself, feels that he ignored her - because of the speed of the game, we the players are led to think that this scene happens as Tifa thinks it did, but the speed itself is pushing the illusion (as I have discussed plenty of time here)
- this leads to Cloud realising his mistake, and feeling guilty because he failed to protect Tifa - who is basically his number 1 priority

The romantic tension is resolved later on, when Cloud is able to protect both Tifa and Aerith - but with a big focus on Tifa, and asking her if she is OK specifically; here the game is literally showing us Cloud's priorities through his actions (actions speak louder than word is definitely a cloti motto). This is Cloud's answer, telling her that no matter what, she is his priority, and Tifa understands that (and we, the players, are supposed to get that too in the way the scene plays).

This mini-arc, so to speak, can only be here because there is more than friendship and even more than attraction between the two. Neither is aware of the other's feelings for them, which leads to situation where there is doubt, and this is how the devs develop cloti as a romantic pair, by showing us that there is more than friendship between the two and that yes, it is being addressed. And personally, as a cloti fan, I think it's absolutely fantastic because it *shows* how important their relationship is.
 

Ryeleigh

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
Rye
This is why I'd like to see some stuff from "maiden who travels the planet" make it into remake. If we see Aerith/Zack have some sort of romantic interaction within the lifestream, maybe those Clerith's will get some closure
Um, I can't completely speak for other people but I have read a few ostensibly "clerith" blogs. Well, I read them for their criticism on the remake but I did catch a few things on "clerith" too. I guess they could be called "reasonable cleriths" because they don't really bother with the rest of the fandom because they don't like the compilation or the remake. They also have zero tolerance for Tifa hatred or the idea that Aerith and Tifa aren't friends (whether that's in the OG or the remake). Or that Cloud and Tifa aren't important to each other, for that matter.

And the thing is... I don't think that any hint of Aerith/Zack in the remake is going to give them "closure", whether they're the reasonable or unreasonable "cleriths". Obviously, the unreasonable ones aren't just going to accept it, flat out, but the reasonable ones won't care about it either because, well, they don't like Crisis Core or Aerith/Zack or the remake. Mainly because they think the EU, CC and Aerith/Zack were badly written, and they do have good points on why they dislike them. But. Even if CC and Aerith/Zack had been well-written, it still wouldn't negate the fact they'd still prefer Aerith/Cloud and Aerith/Cloud came after Aerith/Zack. If Zack's death didn't negate Aerith/Zack, then why should Aerith's death negate Aerith/Cloud?

I mean, that's just how shipping works. It has nothing to do with canon even though some people really like to argue for the validation of canon. Even if said canon is nothing good to feel validated about.

So the sewer scene is a scene we have discussed *a lot* with Peko, because, being Japanese, she played first in Japanese, so her impressions to me were more important than mine, notably because the translations may not be 100% true to the Japanese. It's also worth to note that she has read Japanese cloti fans gushing about Tifa being jealous there, so she is not the only one who interpreted that scene this way, and Tifa being jealous is not meant to be taken negatively.
When I first saw the sewer scene in the remake (with English dub), I didn't take it as Tifa being jealous simply because the context for it was too... ill-timed? I mean, Tifa had just heard that Shinra is going to drop the plate on sector 7, that she's going to lose her second home and the people she cares about, and it's tangentially Avalance's fault, and she's really going to take the time to be jealous because Cloud knows a girl? To me, the timing of her jealousy would be just bizarre and kind of inappropriate. This is not to say she can't feel jealous or that it's something negative. For the most part, Korean and Japanese stories don't present jealousy as something negative, but it's mostly done for humour/cuteness/relationship development.

So I don't really disagree with you, I just think the context of that scene makes jealousy ill-fitting in that moment.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
When I first saw the sewer scene in the remake (with English dub), I didn't take it as Tifa being jealous simply because the context for it was too... ill-timed? I mean, Tifa had just heard that Shinra is going to drop the plate on sector 7, that she's going to lose her second home and the people she cares about, and it's tangentially Avalance's fault, and she's really going to take the time to be jealous because Cloud knows a girl? To me, the timing of her jealousy would be just bizarre and kind of inappropriate. This is not to say she can't feel jealous or that it's something negative. For the most part, Korean and Japanese stories don't present jealousy as something negative, but it's mostly done for humour/cuteness/relationship development.
Well I remember the thing the very first French streamer I watched said at this moment: "come on Tifa, now's not the time!" so it is undeniable that there is an underlying jealousy, or maybe it is a too strong word but... there is definitely uneasiness, something that sparks from that very moment and also explains why Tifa reacts the way she does in chapter 11 when she believes Cloud only asked Aerith how she felt. Because suspiscion had been laid at this very moment - Cloud was way too vague, as if he had something to hide, and then he doesn't care anymore about her own well-being? That's why she's throwing shade at him at this moment.

Also it does spark a relationship development between the two, when Cloud finally reassures her while protecting her. We are supposed to understand here and there that she is his number 1 priority, yes, even over Aerith.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I think an interpretation of jealousy is possible, it's not completely out of the blue. But given the context, it seems less likely. Tifa being confused and wondering who this stranger is that suddenly joined the party while she was unaware is just as valid, and more relevant to the scene. The reason "jealousy" is apparent in a player's mind is because they have the context and understanding of the love triangle that exists between Cloud, Tifa and Aerith. So naturally, with that dimension of the characters in mind, it's easy to project that perspective towards the scene and interpret that. Especially considering in terms of gameplay, who you talk to first gives a boost to the affection value that determines the Chapter 14 resolution scene.

So it can be very confusing interpreting the narrative text within the strict confines of what happens within the story, and then evaluating that same scene within the meta context of the series itself and as a game. I don't think Tifa within the explicit confines of the narrative of that scene was feeling jealous of Aerith. But I can see how it'd be a reasonable assumption given the history, context and gameplay mechanics at work.
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
I think that's one of the worst parts of Maiden to be honest, I generally read Aeriths lines towards Zack as being playfully teasing rather than distant, but it still had a silly focus on Cloud imo. I don't like main character syndrome where everything in everyones life revolves around the main character, even when they're not in the room. Aerith just reunited with the man she'd waited for for years, someone she loved, someone dead, regardless of how she felt about Cloud and Zack at that point, that moment all her focus should have been on Zack and the fact that she's seeing him again.
Even if she now loved Cloud she still should have ran towards him, you think if my platonic friend suddenly dissapeared for 5 years and I see him again that I'd be talking about my girlfriend? NO! I'd hug that motherfucker for all he's worth while crying my eyes out.
The fact that Aerith DOES clearly still love Zack makes the scene all the more weird.
I dont really blame Aerith's line because Zack is OOC. After playing Crisis Core, you wouldnt expect Zack would say something like this cringe line "Man, among the girls I get along with, you're the best one, Aerith" when they reunite. WTF ZACK! But it happens in Maiden, no wonder Aerith loves Cloud more lol.

For remake, after her death I want to see MAYBE one short clip of her meeting Zack again, but no more.
I personally think Aerith will sacrifice herself in the remake, which means that she'll likely get one of those "satisfying death" tropes. Emotionally I think something similar to Zack being reunited with Angeal is probably suitable.
Aerith would go to the sky as her monologue in FF 30th Anniversary Exhibition implied. This is her line:
"You're now far from me. I'm far from you.
Oh, I'm rising, the sky carries me away.
Don't cry, or you'll make it rain."
This seems her goodbye to Cloud and the party.

After those lines, tbh I expect something similar like Angeal picking up Zack to the sky. But since the players are shown Zack being "alive" here, it'd be weird if his spirit did the same to Aerith. Though, if he's dead, this is the suitable conversation that comes to my mind.
"Is that the sky? No.... it's the eyes with color of the sky."
"Are you still afraid of the sky?"
"Umm... not scary at all, because you're here with me."
"Yeah, I said I'd go with you. That's a promise."
Then they disappear to the sky. Fin.
 

Pandemonium

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nate
I think that's one of the worst parts of Maiden to be honest, I generally read Aeriths lines towards Zack as being playfully teasing rather than distant, but it still had a silly focus on Cloud imo. I don't like main character syndrome where everything in everyones life revolves around the main character, even when they're not in the room. Aerith just reunited with the man she'd waited for for years, someone she loved, someone dead, regardless of how she felt about Cloud and Zack at that point, that moment all her focus should have been on Zack and the fact that she's seeing him again.
Even if she now loved Cloud she still should have ran towards him, you think if my platonic friend suddenly dissapeared for 5 years and I see him again that I'd be talking about my girlfriend? NO! I'd hug that motherfucker for all he's worth while crying my eyes out.
The fact that Aerith DOES clearly still love Zack makes the scene all the more weird.
That's all fair. I dont mean that I'd want things to play out like that though. The devs can have Aerith and Zack interact romantically in the lifestream.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
@Makoeyes987 yeah but one of the reason why I often grill Peko is that when she first played Remake, it was the first time she touched anything FFVII-related lol ^^'

And I mean, it's typical of cloti too, what we see is Cloud miscommunicating (he's good at it) and Tifa doubting afterwards, just like in CoT. As I said here jealousy is surely too strong of a word, but there is an underlying feeling that Cloud does not address and that makes her suspiscious.
 
And I mean, it's typical of cloti too, what we see is Cloud miscommunicating (he's good at it) and Tifa doubting afterwards, just like in CoT. As I said here jealousy is surely too strong of a word, but there is an underlying feeling that Cloud does not address and that makes her suspiscious.
I want to add something about AC, while also agreeing that the movie portrayal could be a lot better.

Many people look at Tifa as jealous in AC but while reading CoT and AC what I gathered were feelings inadequacy and helplessness from her (I could be bias...), like, she knew exactly what he was dealing with (they had almost exactly the same traumatic past), she knew about his own feelings of inadequacy, and when she went to the church and found out he had geostigma, is shown that that she knew exactly why he was running way, BUT, he was trying to solve everything on his own (maybe to not drag along his loved ones, which is very common), and "not letting people in". While he was closing his soul to almost everybody, it is noted that Tifa is the only one who knows the struggles of this heart (no cetra powers needed).

She even thanked Aerith in the end for always been there to him. She was never competing against another woman, that is not what the movie is about. She was trying to support him on his weakest time, and while the road was rocky, she succeed.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Oh, I agree, in CoT/ACC there is no jealousy. I reread CoT last summer and came to that conclusion too. But there is doubt "do you love me?" is pretty damning because Cloud was closing up and she started to doubt because of this. It's the same processus here, but more than doubt it's probably suspiscion. To me, she doesn't understand why Aerith is willing to help them, and Cloud's vague answer doesn't help. It's a problem they run into because Cloud is very young in his head, and all he wants is to look cool and heroic, especially towards Tifa, so he has to learn how to act.

In the same way, in Tifa's resolution, when she mentions that the flower came from Aerith, it's not jealousy; she is very disappointed by Cloud there, he took a real hit because he made her sad with his actions (which he never wanted to; but again he wanted to look cool and impress her). He's learning the very basics of a relationship - it is something that he needs and that in CoT is still troubling them, mainly because of his guilt then. I think the beginning of CoT displays a Cloud who has learned to be more open, to be positive - but then he falls deep into depression and guilt. This is also why I believe Cloud and Tifa are fine by the end of ACC, because he already knows how to communicate, and he's learned to forgive himself. The end of The Kid are Alright displays this to me - and it's honestly the perfect ending to ACC.
 

Ryeleigh

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
Rye
Well I remember the thing the very first French streamer I watched said at this moment: "come on Tifa, now's not the time!" so it is undeniable that there is an underlying jealousy, or maybe it is a too strong word but... there is definitely uneasiness, something that sparks from that very moment . . .
And I mean, it's typical of cloti too, what we see is Cloud miscommunicating (he's good at it) and Tifa doubting afterwards, just like in CoT. As I said here jealousy is surely too strong of a word, but there is an underlying feeling that Cloud does not address and that makes her suspiscious.
I think suspicious fits better, too. Because Aerith is acting overly familiar and eager to help, she's with Cloud who isn't a "people person", and Tifa can sense there's something strange about her and something she isn't telling. Not to mention Tifa is, you know, with wanted terrorists so I'd imagine she'd be first suspicious of people she doesn't know. So I think it's a combination of all that and more complex than just "Tifa is jealous because Cloud knows a girl".

I mean, these are the same writers who toned down Aerith's flirting and transposed it on Jessie (not to mention originated Aerith's more aggressive flirting from Zack) so she wouldn't get hate or flak. So I don't think they would make Tifa jealous in that scene. Because, as you said, even if people interpreted it as strictly jealousy, their first reaction would be "now's not the time". And I find it kind of hard to believe that's the feeling the devs wanted to evoke in the sewer scene.

So, you know, that's my two cents anyway. I don't disagree that she was jealous in the wagon scene, though, even if I personally don't like it. ^^;
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
@Ryeleigh: just to be clear, I think it's *also* suspiscion about Cloud and Aerith's relationship, because Cloud is being so vague, not only towards Aerith herself ("how did you meet?"). In the wagon I'm still not sure that it's 100% jealousy, more that she's pissed off to be forgotten when she got hurt. Physically and emotionally, at this point, she feels hurt by Cloud's behaviour, which is why Cloud is struck and not moving, because he is understanding that he made a really BIG mistake there.

The following scene with them taking Cloud by an arm each is also a following, because Aerith's bold, it spurs Tifa into action. If Aerith hadn't taken Cloud's arm, the scene would have been very different, but here you have Aerith taking his arm, so Tifa retaliates too. She may be pissed, but she's not going down like this and doing nothing because it's out of her comfort zone - which does surprise Cloud. We see him looking at her while she's making a face, and we know that between the two girls he's kind of "OMG WHAT DO I DO NOW" lol (which fits his 16 years old personality), but he does take notice of Tifa's gesture. It is the succession of these events:

- sewers were Tifa gets suspiscious
- wagon where Tifa feels left out and hurt and Cloud feels like the biggest idiot
- scene where she reaches for Cloud's arm which tells him she's not given up on him

that lead to the scene where Cloud saves her (and Aerith) and is able to communicate (without words lol) where he stands. There is romantic tension being built up and resolved, and I find the way it's done not only *very cloti*, but also really good for our ship.
 

odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
I think suspicious fits better, too. Because Aerith is acting overly familiar and eager to help, she's with Cloud who isn't a "people person", and Tifa can sense there's something strange about her and something she isn't telling. Not to mention Tifa is, you know, with wanted terrorists so I'd imagine she'd be first suspicious of people she doesn't know. So I think it's a combination of all that and more complex than just "Tifa is jealous because Cloud knows a girl".
Just before the fall in the sewers, Aerith and Tifa fought together and high-fived each other. At first it didn't make sense to me why these lines were even included in this scene, especially when there was a sense of urgency to get back to Sector 7. I personally doubt she's suspicious of Aerith's motives, but now that I've had a chance to see the scene again, I think my thoughts do align with the idea that she's suspicious of Aerith being over familiar and eager to help, as you pointed out. I just want to say that, for me, it's healthy curiosity on Tifa's part to wonder about that.

Jp: Hm? Is there something you're not telling me?/Are you dodging my question? Why would she be helping you?
ごまかしてない? どうして 助けてくれるのか
EN: And that's all there is to it? Sure there isn't something else going on?

There's still the implication in the original version that she may think one way or another. We don't know. It's very ambiguous. But no matter what it is, it's curiosity. Nothing to do with her being petty or jealous of this new girl entering the picture, especially when she genuinely felt bad about getting Aerith involved in the first place.

On the other hand, some people took Cloud's slightly guilty reaction to mean that he was affirming that there is something else going on between him and Aerith. But based on his strange reaction to her question, I feel like Cloud—in trying to keep up with his hero act—is covering up because he doesn't want to look like a loser in front of Tifa. If Cloud told Tifa the truth of how he and Aerith became friends—that he fell into the church, got lost and couldn't find his way back to Sector 7 without Aerith's help—he would not look like a cool hero in Tifa's eyes. I think that fits more in line with what the staffs in the Ultimania have repeatedly said about him wanting to look cool in front of her. But, of course, that's just my personal interpretation.
 

Ryeleigh

Lv. 25 Adventurer
AKA
Rye
I personally doubt she's suspicious of Aerith's motives, but now that I've had a chance to see the scene again, I think my thoughts do align with the idea that she's suspicious of Aerith being over familiar and eager to help, as you pointed out. I just want to say that, for me, it's healthy curiosity on Tifa's part to wonder about that.
Yes, curiosity is a good word for it too. Who wouldn't be curious if Cloud -- who isn't exactly the most social person -- suddenly made a new friend all by himself? XD Not to mention the whole "I saved her, she saved me" or however that line went would probably pique anyone's interest in what happened.

On the other hand, some people took Cloud's slightly guilty reaction to mean that he was affirming that there is something else going on between him and Aerith. But based on his strange reaction to her question, I feel like Cloud—in trying to keep up with his hero act—is covering up because he doesn't want to look like a loser in front of Tifa. If Cloud told Tifa the truth of how he and Aerith became friends—that he fell into the church, got lost and couldn't find his way back to Sector 7 without Aerith's help—he would not look like a cool hero in Tifa's eyes. I think that fits more in line with what the staffs in the Ultimania have repeatedly said about him wanting to look cool in front of her. But, of course, that's just my personal interpretation.
Ha ha, yeah, when I first saw that scene I thought Cloud's reaction was like the typical reaction of a protagonist in a harem story. Nothing but grunts, groans, sighs and gasps that don't explain anything and makes everything more dubious than it is XD Also, I think almost everyone who played the remake was at least peripherally aware of the "love triangle"? So I think that might skew the interpretation of some scenes a bit and make them seem more ambiguous than they might actually be. Or they're deliberately ambiguous to give the illusion of one thing while it's actually the other.
 

odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
Yes, curiosity is a good word for it too. Who wouldn't be curious if Cloud -- who isn't exactly the most social person -- suddenly made a new friend all by himself? XD Not to mention the whole "I saved her, she saved me" or however that line went would probably pique anyone's interest in what happened.
Yes, but I do agree with Eerie (and she and I have discussed this many times) that it’s not simply because of that. She's curious because she likes Cloud. I feel it's natural. As I mentioned, the implication is there even in the original dialogue that she may suspect that, while she knows Aerith is a good person, there may also be another reason why she is helping Cloud, and my feelings are that she thinks Aerith is helping because she likes Cloud. Cloud reacts to it in that strange way because in his mind, he knows he was a lost kitten and needed Aerith's help, but he is definitely not gonna cough that up in front of Tifa. It causes a bit of misunderstanding and uncertainty in Tifa. I just want to point it out that we all took away something different in this scene and the lines are ambiguous enough in the original that it can swing either way, but I do tend to agree with @Eerie here that it was her suspecting something. I just don’t feel that it’s jealousy or suspicious of Aerith being a bad guy. But there definitely is something LT related there from my pov. For me it's a healthy dose of curiosity because she is interested in Cloud.

It seems like it doesn't fit in with the rest of what's happening, but neither do the arm-grabs with the two "flowers" hanging onto the hero's biceps later on. But it's there. Albeit not as blown out of proportion as shippers like myself make it out to be. It's supposed to be aw, look how cute, she likes him. Not "omg Tifa is petty and jealous!"
 
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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Pretty much what I said but in a different order lol so I imagine the conversation went like this:

“Nah, we can’t kill the Black guy, it’s too obvious. So…the flower girl.”

“We’ll need another chick for these horny teenagers to get off to, though.”

“Well, we can take some leftover ideas from the first girl, add some new stuff, etc. etc.”

“Okay, so hear me out. We can’t make her the mysterious new girl, we already have that. So we make the second girl…the childhood friend.”

“Yes, YES! *snorts cocaine* So we can kill one girl and make the other one the ACTUAL ‘first girl’. We’ll reveal our MC is just as horny for her as the players will be!”

“Hold up. TWO love interests? So we can have our cake…AND eat it too?!”
View attachment 11036
I know this was very long ago, but the early dev era is fascinating to me, so I want to offer a musing on this- from the way they describe development, the character who would become Aerith- who may or may not have been called Aerith at this point- was the same character concept as the early "Tifa" design who was sister to Vincentroth, so she wasn't so much "the first girl" but "the first design" same as Vincent wasn't the first Sephiroth. Does that make sense?

I don't think Nojima is a shipper of has a particoular favoritism for any character. The developers just need to write appealing stories, based on a solid underlying logic. And the more realistic the media, the more realistic need to be the interactions between characters and their motivations.

We shouldn't forget that the links between the characters changed a lot since the first drafts of the story. The female protagonist and the villain had to be siblings, and originally they had to be (as regards the designs of course) Tifa and Vincent. When they decided to kill the girl, they splitted the female role and the siblings became Sephiroth and Aerith. Then they changed the bond from relatives to first love and I think this is the reason why OG Aerith is very cold toward "her first love", who indeed had to turn out to be the villain. Zack was a very last addition. They reused a discarded design for Cloud and essentially splitted the main character in two too. Hell, Nomura didn't even have the time to color Zack's picture! In fact they didn't come up with a good pretext to make Gongaga a mandatory location (with the girls as party memebers) and the scenes of Zack's death AND the creation of Soldier Cloud weren't included until the international release of the game. I'm not that surprised that CC somehow turned the table regarding Zack and Aerith's relationship.
Again, minor correction, he was still called Sephiroth in the siblings era, even if he looked like Vincent and had different relations to people. Also he who would become Barret was simply Bro at this point, so my best guess is this was very very early days when they had only just moved on past Joe in NYC and the notes that got shuffled into PE.

I checked on Reunion Files: "The wolf is a symbolic figure that represents the deepest part of Cloud's psyche. It appears in response to some burden that Cloud is carrying deep in his heart". I haven't found anything about Fenrir in particoular but I guess the gray wolf actually is Fenrir.
I don't think the gray wolf and Fenrir are the same, apart from Cloud liking and representing himself with wolves. Also technically I think only the bike is Fenrir, the rings are the "cloudy wolf" rings?

Oh, and hi again everyone.
 

Thenir

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Nirnaeth
Hi! :)
I think "cloudy wolf" was the way fans started calling it, not an official term.
Honestly I'd find it a big coincidence if the gray wolf and Cloud's AC symbol weren't related, as seemingly they both epitomize his sense of guilt.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Hi! :)
I think "cloudy wolf" was the way fans started calling it, not an official term.
https://store.na.square-enix-games....ildren-silver-ring-cloudy-wolf-size-7-jewelry

Nope, that's the official term for it on SE's own merch pages.

Honestly I'd find it a big coincidence if the gray wolf and Cloud's AC symbol weren't related, as seemingly they both epitomize his sense of guilt.
I think they're related in that both represent Cloud, but the wolf represents Cloud's guilt, while the cloudy wolf jewelry are actual physical objects Cloud has given to Tifa and Denzel to mark them as part of his family.
 
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