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SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
Wait so in JP Cloud says to Hojo "I'm going to get you to return Aerith to me"?! Wow now Hojo's part about saying did Aerith belong to you/was she your property or something makes more sense, thought that part was a bit jarring/huh wait what before, good to know the context.

Also "You came for me" "Yup" Heh heh heh.

Not sure he did say that in the japanese version. Didn't he say "return Aerith home"? I think it might be one of those japanese words with multiple meanings, thus leading to confusion. Someone more familiar with japanese will have to confirm.
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
Wait so in JP Cloud says to Hojo "I'm going to get you to return Aerith to me"?!
it doesn't really specify 'to me' or anything

「エアリスを 返してもらおう」
"[∅] shall have [∅] return Aerith."

you're left to infer who ∅ (zero pronoun) is, although ~てもらう means another person (hence '∅ you' instead of just '∅' and もらおう just sounds like you're referring to the person you're speaking to, plus the context of the scene, and i regret trying to explain this now) doing something for someone else and you can easily infer that ∅ refers to cloud and his in-group.

barret uses the same construction in the previous scene

「仲間を開放してもらおうか」
"[∅] shall have [you] release [∅] ally/team member."

(there is か at the end which technically makes it a question but it feels more like a rhetorical question and not asking permission or something and i want to end this post before i make less sense oh lord end it end it now)
 

youffie

Pro Adventurer
While I love to pieces everything that they’ve done with Tifa and Aerith in Remake, I think the petty rivalry over Cloud in the OG is being a little overplayed when people discuss it today (not here, I mean in general). Sure, in the OG there were some juvenile comments here and there and the occasional irritation, but hostility was never even implied. While their relationship wasn’t exactly fleshed out, they were often shown enjoying their free time together, unlike the rest of the team, and Tifa seemed to have a far better understanding of who Aerith was as a person than the rest of the group – even better than Cloud, I might add. After the heroes are left to ponder over things and their lack of closure on their way to AC, it also makes sense that what Tifa feels for Aerith might be a bit more complicated and nuanced, though still largely positive – but that’s a discussion for another thread.

In general, I always felt that Tifa was slightly jealous of Aerith. Cloud might have been an element of that, but what I found more interesting was how Tifa saw traits of the person that she would have liked to be in Aerith – someone who can just come out and say things, and take action, instead of being crippled by her own insecurities. Kind of like how Zack was the person Cloud had hoped to be when he joined Shinra. That kind of jealousy is not necessarily a negative emotion, as it can be a mixture of admiration and frustration towards one’s own shortcomings, and it can even help you to strive to be the person that you want to be. I have felt like that towards certain friends, and it was mostly born out of sheer appreciation for those people and a desire to do better for myself. In that sense, I can see Tifa getting frustrated over time at Aerith’s apparent ease with this stuff and even with Cloud – or rather at her own lack of ease :P – even in future installments. I would like that, that’s only human.

As an aside, I can understand people getting different ideas from character dynamics, but I always think it’s a bit weird when fandoms try to frame relationships that were clearly intended and sold as romantic as “sibling-like”. This is not limited to FFVII, but like, WHY. I’ve seen people trying to argue that for both Cloti and Clerith for the last 20 years (Jesus) and I… still don’t get it…

I do feel that over the Compilation the authors (or at least Nojima :P ) might have grown more attached to Zack/Aerith and Cloud/Tifa, and I could see them ironing things out in that direction. If I were to judge by the vibe that Remake gave me, I was a bit puzzled by what they’re doing with Cloud and Aerith, but with her being such a wild card it’s too hard and too early to tell. I think the mutual feelings of interest are still there, but eh, too many variables right now.

As someone who doesn’t think that Cloud’s love for Tifa was in any way diminished by his love for Aerith, though, I don’t think Aerith genuinely falling in love with Cloud would diminish her love for Zack. If anything, I’d use Aerith’s apparent awareness of who Cloud really is to show more clearly how she fell in love with him for who he was, rather than for who he reminded her of. I find that far more compelling and far more beautiful.
Basically, if I had my way with the remake I’d have you guys discuss in LTD hell until the end of times, YOU’RE WELCOME :monstersmash:

edit: welp that was a long post
 

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
You have a point and I also analyzed yesterday. But let's analyze her monologue from FF’s 30th anniversary (official translation), then you'd know her feelings for Cloud:

(1) "I hate the sky, it carries away everyone Iove"
Confirmed by Nomura as this line is voiced up in FF7R ending. This is because the sky represents losing everyone she loved, including Zack, as CC ending depicts a scene of his spirit soaring to the sky / heaven with Angeal pick him up. Let's forget OG that depicted she's unaware of his death. Aerith is Cetra and she could sense it--CC showed us and it doesn't contradict her sensing Elmyra's husband passing away.

(2) "This is a strange place. Flowers bloom all year long. The seasons never change--my feelings never change. I’m stuck.”
I think 'strange place' refers to the church. We know her house has flowers garden so why she still goes to the church (that leads her to meet Cloud again) if the flowers could bloom naturally without her care? One reason, she's stuck... her feeling lingers there, the place where she met Zack and he always visited her. Nomura stated in CC interviews at Dengeki, that Zack always headed straight to the church whenever something comes up.

(3) "That's it. I give up! I can't stop thinking of you. Ugh, I can't stand this!"
Honestly, all these lines aren't arranged by order and I don't know which the right order is. Is this line spoken up during months after Zack's death? Or, is it still last even after FF7R ending? The implication would be different.

(4) "Helloooo~ Wake up. It's almost morning."
Pretty clear. Both Zack and Cloud crashed into her church in the same way, talk in their sleep, and she wakes 'em up in the same way, too.

(5) "Don't step on the flower."
Pretty clear. Aerith scolded Zack, and Reno & Cloud when they are fighting.

(6) "Sometimes I see someone who has the same eye. Same as you, I mean. And I wonder, should I ask: do you know him? do you know where he is?"
Pretty clear. FF7R change the playground scene different from OG, and this is an explicit reference from Crisis Core. JP lines are even the exact same words for words like when she stared at Zack's eyes. She even has asked Cloud in Sector 5 if he had any SOLDIER friend or war buddy.

(7) "I know goodbye will be hard. But when I think of meeting someone new, I still get so excited. It's cruel."
I think this is Aerith struggling with her feeling between Zack and Cloud. She knew she has to "Gotta move forwards, not back" as she stated in the playground, but it's so damn hard that she might have this motivation conflicted for so long even before meeting Cloud (Zack died 3 months before the first bomb mission). As I said before in the previous post, Aerith also stopped walking forward a while when Zack in another timeline passed her by. We knew in the future, she would meet more people... Yuffie, Vincent, Cid. Would she say goodbye again to Zack at that spot?

(8) "Stamp... Stamp! Guess, you're gone too."
We know that the Stamp in Zack's survival timeline has changed, but does her line refer to the old Stamp?

(9) "Things won't last forever. Sure, it's lonely. It's sad. But I can say "bye" with a smile, right?"
I guess this fits the narration in optional dream sequence, as well as the next dream in Gongaga that she goes to Forgotten Capital alone. Why Cloud? Because she doesn't say "bye" to Zack with a smile.

(10) "You came. Thank you, I'm glad. But you're already...."
I'm not sure about this. Does this represent the time she prays in Forgotten City that Cloud comes to her? But he's under Sephiroth's control? Or does this represent a future event in the next installment about her reunion with the Zack who survives and she knew he's supposed to be dead? Or does this refer to the optional dream sequence that she's aware Cloud isn't himself? Too many interpretations.

(11) "You're so far now. I'm so far from you. Oh, I'm rising. The sky is carrying me away. I can see you, you're crying. Don't cry, you'll make it rain."
Cloud gets a future vision and we saw he drops a single tear. But.... Is the line foreshadowing her death that would be different from OG? We know in OG, she's sunk down to the bottom of the lake in Forgotten Capital. But with all of these lines above correlated with FF7R, we'd probably get her death similar to Kadaj in AC... her spirit (like Zack) soar to the sky and both scenes are raining (although the Kadaj one is raining from Great Gospel as she heals geostigma around Edge). Her death should happen in the place where the sky can be clearly seen (whether it's clear blue or cloudy with rain), and Forgotten Capital doesn't fit the definition as it's surrounded by sleeping forest.

So..... is Aerith still interested romantically to Cloud? Seems not.

Are there anymore quotes?
 

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
From Aerith's farewell monologues? I think that's all. Eleven lines.
It's basically just farewell to Zack (as he dies) and farewell to Cloud (as she dies).

Was this a quote: "New love can help us to forget old one. That’s what I heard. Is this it? Somehow my heart aches. Would this be OK?"
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
Was this a quote: "New love can help us to forget old one. That’s what I heard. Is this it? Somehow my heart aches. Would this be OK?"
No, there's no line like that. Idk where you got it, but I think it also matches Aerith's feeling very well. That's similar to this line: "I know goodbye will be hard. But when I think of meeting someone new, I still get so excited. It's cruel."
 

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
No, there's no line like that. Idk where you got it, but I think it also matches Aerith's feeling very well. That's similar to this line: "I know goodbye will be hard. But when I think of meeting someone new, I still get so excited. It's cruel."

Here's the original as I read it(from some internet user): "新しい恋で、古いの、忘れられる そんな話、聞いてたけど…… これがそう?なんだか、心が痛い いいのかな?"

Can't read japanese, so I don't know what it says exactly.

Anyways, some questions about future events:
- Assuming the Remake is pushing a multiverse, how will multiples of every character affect the LTD?
- How will Aerith's new freedom to choose her destiny affect her decisions?
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
Here's the original as I read it (from some internet user): "新しい恋で、古いの、忘れられる そんな話、聞いてたけど…… これがそう?なんだか、心が痛い いいのかな?"

Can't read japanese, so I don't know what it says exactly.
I get it now, but what I typed before is the official translation from the event

Anyways, some questions about future events:
- Assuming the Remake is pushing a multiverse, how will multiples of every character affect the LTD?
- How will Aerith's new freedom to choose her destiny affect her decisions?
I dont think it'd affect Cloti. Cloud's feeling would remain the same despite knowing him not a SOLDIER this time and it might make him even harder to face Tifa. But Zack can do something about it, fact is Cloud being there and threw Sephiroth to mako. No need to be ashamed about it. If two Cloti from two universes met, it'd just make 'em confused lol. Aerith is the key here, that's why analyzing her perspective from the farewell monologue may hint future events as some are confirmed happened in Part 1.

In the universe where Zack alive and could make it back to her, there wouldn't even be a question lol. She's holding feeling for him in 1.5 years active relationship + 4 years never give up hope to send him 89 letters. There would be no LTD. The only motivation drives her to move on is Zack's death. We talk about FF7R, right? Then forget old quotes from OG saying she was unaware of his death to even think if he might cheat on her. But how it would affect Aerith in the original timeline? It's complicated, especially because, first, she got a vision of his final stand right BEFORE deciding to change fate. And second, she's exactly 100% aware her decision creates another universe by sensing Zack is alive there walking across her.

I get that she deserves to move on 'cause in her universe, Zack is still dead, and she might think she could change her own fate not to die--no need to reject Cloud anymore like what she said in optional dream sequence. But, wouldn't it be weird if the gamers played two universes which is one supporting Zerith-Cloti narrative but another one push different pairing?

Seems LTD in FF7R is Aerith wavers between her lingering feelings for Zack and budding feelings for Cloud LOL.
 
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MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
I get it now, but what I typed before is the official translation from the event


I dont think it'd affect Cloti. Cloud's feeling would remain the same despite knowing him not a SOLDIER this time and it might make him even harder to face Tifa. But Zack can do something about it, fact is Cloud being there and threw Sephiroth to mako. No need to be ashamed about it. If two Cloti from two universes met, it'd just make 'em confused lol. Aerith is the key here, that's why analyzing her perspective from the farewell monologue may hint future events as some are confirmed happened in Part 1.

In the universe where Zack alive and could make it back to her, there wouldn't even be a question lol. She's holding feeling for him in 1.5 years active relationship + 4 years never give up hope to send him 89 letters. There would be no LTD. The only motivation drives her to move on is Zack's death. We talk about FF7R, right? Then forget old quotes from OG saying she was unaware of his death to even think if he might cheat on her. But how it would affect Aerith in the original timeline? It's complicated, especially because, first, she got a vision of his final stand right BEFORE deciding to change fate. And second, she's exactly 100% aware her decision creates another universe by sensing Zack is alive there walking across her.

I get that she deserves to move on 'cause in her universe, Zack is still dead, and she might think she could change her own fate not to die--no need to reject Cloud anymore like what she said in optional dream sequence. But, wouldn't it be weird if the gamers played two universes which is one supporting Zerith-Cloti narrative but another one push different pairing?

Seems LTD in FF7R is Aerith wavers between her lingering feelings for Zack and budding feelings for Cloud LOL.

I think some gamers would feel cheated if they didn't get their bittersweet ending where a major character died.

Personally I think there's only one timeline, and the events of Part One happened in a bubble reality encompassing all of Midgar. This might mean that the only characters that get duplicated are the ones that existed both outside and inside the bubble, namely Cloud. Might be the premise of a spinoff game. This would also mean that Zack and Biggs exist in a timeline where they both already died.

If they duplicated EVERY character, it would just be one giant mess.
 

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
I get it now, but what I typed before is the official translation from the event

This clip includes the line I mentioned:

If these translations are correct, then some of these lines are actually about Cloud. For example:

- "That's it. I give up! I can't stop thinking of you. Ugh, I can't stand this!" : this line sounds like it's about Zack, and spoken in despair.
- "That's it. I give up! I like you. Why me?!" : this line sounds like it's about Cloud, after having spent some time with him.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
Aerith torn between her old feelings of love and budding love for Cloud is well done I think. You can see she still thinks of Zack, and at the same time, is attracted to Cloud, and she doesn't really know what to do with all those complicated feelings. I think in the OG it was far easier to miss that she still had feelings for Zack.
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
- "That's it. I give up! I can't stop thinking of you. Ugh, I can't stand this!" : this line sounds like it's about Zack, and spoken in despair.
- "That's it. I give up! I like you. Why me?!" : this line sounds like it's about Cloud, after having spent some time with him.
Mhh... we may be able to compare the official translation and the fan one if we see the JP one. But I can't translate it. Even in the game itself, there are differences between English localization and the original script. And the EN one seems to push more LT than JP version.

To me, both versions are good. Maybe it's for both, maybe it's for one than another but we need to know the order of the lines. I had no idea if people who attended the events would get it randomly or it's already composed by order.
If the line you posted is spoken up after the line mentioning "My feeling doesn't change. I'm stuck" then it's for Zack.
But if it was after "I see people with the same eye, do you know where he is?" then it's for Cloud.
 
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Yumelinh

Pro Adventurer
This clip includes the line I mentioned:

If these translations are correct, then some of these lines are actually about Cloud. For example:

- "That's it. I give up! I can't stop thinking of you. Ugh, I can't stand this!" : this line sounds like it's about Zack, and spoken in despair.
- "That's it. I give up! I like you. Why me?!" : this line sounds like it's about Cloud, after having spent some time with him.

I never saw this before!! So beautiful;-; my poor Aerith.

Also, this is fan-dubbed, right? If so they made a marvelous job.


Aerith torn between her old feelings of love and budding love for Cloud is well done I think. You can see she still thinks of Zack, and at the same time, is attracted to Cloud, and she doesn't really know what to do with all those complicated feelings. I think in the OG it was far easier to miss that she still had feelings for Zack.

I agree! I think the Remake is showing that much better than OG ever did. She's clearly not over Zack, but she is attracted to Cloud as well. And things get even more complicated because of how much Cloud resembles Zack.

If they follow the OG, she will ultimately realize she can't keep running away and needs to distinguish her feelings for Cloud for the ones she holds for Zack and will voice her desire to meet Cloud for who he really is. I think this moment in OG incorporates her "moving forward" feelings more than anything else.

However, she never got the time to actually do that in OG, and I wonder if this time around it will be different?! And how much complicated will it be since Zack seems to have survived in the Remake?! If the reason she decided to let go was bc Zack was dead, would she want the same thing if he's still alive?


I think we have more questions than answers from Part 1, so in other words, another normal day in FFVII fandom :mon:
 

eleamaya

Pro Adventurer
And how much complicated will it be since Zack seems to have survived in the Remake?! If the reason she decided to let go was bc Zack was dead, would she want the same thing if he's still alive?
Suddenly reminds me of Pearl Harbor movie lol, except Cloud fuck her.
 

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
Suddenly reminds me of Pearl Harbor movie lol, except Cloud fuck her.

Except he never does. So is Cloud Ben Affleck or Josh Hartnett in this scenario?

Honestly, the longer this triangle lasts, the worse Cloud looks, and no one ever mentions that. Least of all CxA shippers. I can understand Tifa's feeling for Cloud, considering their past, but I've never understood Aerith's feelings for him. It would make more sense if she were only attracted to the quallities from Zack she sees in Cloud.
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
Except he never does. So is Cloud Ben Affleck or Josh Hartnett in this scenario?

Honestly, the longer this triangle lasts, the worse Cloud looks, and no one ever mentions that. Least of all CxA shippers. I can understand Tifa's feeling for Cloud, considering their past, but I've never understood Aerith's feelings for him. It would make more sense if she were only attracted to the quallities from Zack she sees in Cloud.


I would think that in Aerith's case it was love at first sight. Just by going on how long Aerith knew Cloud up until when she died later in the story. Which if you think about she probably only known Cloud for a few weeks, a month at most.
 

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
I would think that in Aerith's case it was love at first sight. Just by going on how long Aerith knew Cloud up until when she died later in the story. Which if you think about she probably only known Cloud for a few weeks, a month at most.

That's a convenient cop-out for the writers. It especially makes little sense when you consider how Aerith never met the real Cloud before she died.
 

Graymouse

Pro Adventurer
That's a convenient cop-out for the writers. It especially makes little sense when you consider how Aerith never met the real Cloud before she died.

Well then, It appears that in the Remake I think that they are making things more believable. I would go as far as saying the Devs are removing the rivalry between the two Heroines.
 

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
Well then, It appears that in the Remake I think that they are making things more believable. I would go as far as saying the Devs are removing the rivalry between the two Heroines.

That makes things less believable, IMO. It also contributes to the feeling many people have that Aerith is "shipping Cloti." Honestly, if the devs are finally ready to destroy the triangle, it'd be the best thing ever. It's making me feel really bad for these female characters, and like I said before, it doesn't make Cloud look like a decent and worthwhile man.

Though, like Enthralled said before, it's unlikely.

I think that even though the developers have their favourites, they will never, ever provide a canon answer to this question. Partly out of respect for the fans, and partly because of the way they set up the game and its relationships in the first place. Why go to all that trouble only to undercut your own work?

(IMHO the canon answer is, Cloud loved both, but one died and one lived).

IMO, that actually makes the product worse. It diminishes the characters of Tifa and Aerith to be forced to chase such an emotionally stunted person who can't decide or come out and choose one.


Toriyama may have intended that scene to be romantic, idk, but IMO he failed. The only romance in that scene was between Cloud and Andrea.
 
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odekopeko

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Peko
I'm sorry if I'm disrupting the flow of the discussions here but I'm here as a new player. This game came out several years before I was even born and this LTD thing has been raging on for as many years as I've lived it seems! Anyway, after lurking for a bit, I felt I wanted to add my two cents regarding this post:

But this all occurs at Aerith's house. After Aerith's entire backstory is explained.

And the plate falling isn't just about Tifa. However, going to Shinra HQ is just about Aerith.

I did all the side quests for both girls. Got the amazing scene where Cloud got blown away by Aerith's beauty. She was gorgeous. I think I fell im love with her a bit there too. BUT I woke up Tifa in the sewers cause, I dunno, I kind of missed talking to her at that point since I hadn't seen her in a while, and when I finally did I had to romance Don Corneo barfs. I got Tifa's resolution scene.

We had an earlier scene of Cloud feeling helpless to comfort her and balling his fists in frustration, and I felt frustrated with him too, so like this led up perfectly to the scene of him comforting her in the flower beds TO ME. I was literally shouting at him to hug her and when he finally did I was like, yaaas bijj now KISS HER. But of course I get that it's not all about the romance, but it's really hard for me not to see these two in that way, especially with the tinkling instrumentals in the bgm that sounded like glass butterfly wings fluttering.

Also, I got a kick outta this scene cause I have a hard time navigating places PERIODT, so when I accidentally walked the wrong way, Cloud's head wouldn't budge and kept smackdab turned towards Tifa standing there even though hia body was moving in a different direction.

It didn't seem out of place to me. I also didn't know the tumble down the tracks in Corkscrew Tunnel was a hidden scene either until someone put it on yt where he jumps out of the train window alone. I can't imagine Cloud NOT fighting the slug rays on the train and just letting them zap his ass, so I sure as hell fought them off. I wonder who wouldn't?

Anyway, I replayed to unlock Aerith's scene as well because she's just too cute. I love her interactions with Cloud too.

I am playing the original now on my bro's vita. I think maybe my perception would be skewed toward Aerith's resolution if I played the og first. I'm not sure. Before starting the og game I thought she was moving a bit too fast for me with the L word but I get it now sort of. It just seems so tragic and heart-breaking now.

I apologize for the tl;dr but I just wanted to put it out there that new players such as myself don't see the Tifa resolution as out of place at all and it and certain hidden scenes seemed natural and organic.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Buncha geezers around here!

I hope you enjoy the original game @odekopeko! Having the perspective of somebody who played the remake first should be pretty interesting.

All three resolutions scenes are really well-integrated. Without any outside knowledge I think it would be really hard to tell that whichever scene would get wasn't simply the written and programmed scene. I certainly didn't think anything of it with the Tifa scene.

Agreed, all three scenes feel natural in the plot, unlike the obvious joke dates with Barret and Yuffie in the original. I got Aerith's in my first play through and it seemed so plot vital that it didn't even register as optional, especially with Cloud's "I feel her calling to me" line in the next scene. It seems to be sort of accepted that all the resolutions are canon and happenin the same night (poor Cloud didn't sleep much) which I like. All the scenes are amazing in their own ways.
 
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