SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Why dont they post here if the point is debunking LTD?

She avoids the LTD thread, that's why. She's also more famous in our inner circle, I guess, after her interesting comments in the FC. I don't think she wants to debate it, she just presents it as she sees it. She's an old time fan though, who fell in love again with cloti in Remake.

@KindOfBlue, I think you are right. Nowhere it was stated that true!Cloud comes out for Tifa. I can't find the exact quote I vaguely remember, and the one I found is definitely a mistranslation of some sorts. It really bothers me because this thought has really ingrained the cloti community, I guess I'm gonna have to fight in Tumblr yet again because of bad translations. UGH.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
It really bothers me because this thought has really ingrained the cloti community, I guess I'm gonna have to fight in Tumblr yet again because of bad translations. UGH.
I hope I didn’t cause any grief! :puppy: I guess my thing is, for us to suggest that real Cloud only emerges at certain times, it kinda opens the door for detractors to discount all of Cloud and Tifa’s moments from when he’s not being his true self, just as people may do with Cloud and Aerith with the same logic.

Of course, there’s still a significant difference in that Cloud and Tifa’s feelings for each other predate his false persona by years while the entire brief period he knew Aerith before her death was all during his SOLDIER phase, in which his memories and personality were being altered.

But basically, a lot of development between Cloud and Tifa (as well as other relationships) might pretty much get thrown out the window except for supposed specific instances in which his “real persona” surfaces, if we follow that logic. I guess the way I treat fake Cloud is not so much him being a different person altogether, but him missing significant pieces of himself such as his memories of Tifa.

It’s almost like Cloud is mentally split into pieces, as seen from when he talks to himself after falling from Mako Reactor 5 but also when he seems to have an out-of-body experience in the Temple of Ancients, and most notably, the Lifestream scene where there’s multiple Clouds present in his subconscious.

And when those pieces of Cloud finally become whole, I don’t think the “fake version” of Cloud just disappears altogether and gets overtaken by the “real Cloud”, but rather all of the pieces of Cloud’s shattered psyche finally become one, from who he used to be, to who he wants to be, to who he pretends to be, to who he is meant to be. It all comes together, much like Jenova reuniting with her pieces, Cloud also has his own reunion with his lost selves.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
No, don't worry, this is making me think about Cloud's personality, indeed. It's very interesting, because in the OG, his SOLDIER self and his true self are reallyyyyyyyy distinct, and I feel that this is not the case anymore with Remake, there's a lot of nuance added to his character - which is probably why I can like this Cloud, while I really did not like Cloud that much before the Lifestream scene in the OG.

I would say that some of his personality is still there, buried more or less behind his idea of a hero - hence the difference between how he talks to the girls - but definitely, he has troubles with his memories, which is natural since Jenova wouldn't let him access them. That allows the player to be more familiar with who "Cloud" is, to enjoy his character more, and I'm also guessing that it was important because unlike the OG that had the span of a few hours of gameplay in one game, here we are talking of a span of several years and several games. Which is why I think the devs don't want to leave the players with a bad interpretation of Cloud that may stick after the Lifestream scene. And which also may be why they chose the route they did for the LTD.
 

BoxFBall

Lv. 25 Adventurer
Not mine, but well-written dissertation once you clik the "keep reading" lol. Check it out!
https://insanehobbit.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F641149944268488706

I actually read all of this on my lunch break and I agree with it, especially with the remake part since I played the remake first. Aerith is portrayed as an individual, everything about Cloud and Tifa is all kind of revolving around the other; hell even their dress colors match. Lmao I never saw Cloud as being very interested in Aerith romantically, he may be attractive to her, but I think Cloud is drawn to her because he has a hero complex in the sense of he has a need to feel like someones savior and she clearly needs saving. Besides the romantic/sexual tension between Cloud and Tifa is so palpable you can cut it clean through with a butterknife.
 
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BoxFBall

Lv. 25 Adventurer
So I never noticed this but...

9cddce51a46c6d610c739becbbb0df79.png


So here as kids notice how Cloud was dressed. White shirt over the top of a black one, ankle length boots the same color as his eyes and his hair was tied back into a ponytail. Now as adults this is what Tifa dresses like...

EFPJKcXWwAANTNR.jpg


She has a white shirt on over the top of a black one, ankle boots to match the colors of her eyes, and her hair back in a ponytail. I never noticed until last night replaying the remake that after that night at the well she started dressing like Cloud. She started doing martial arts to get stronger for Cloud when he said he was gonna join SOLDIER. Just like Aerith started dressing in the manner Zach thought she would look nice in.

I still maintain Cloud is a waste man and these girls both deserve better. How lame can you be to not pick up on all this? LMAO

This may be old to y'all but I never noticed this before and it blew my mind.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
Yes, cloti fans have picked up on that lol. Me, I noticed that Tifa was dressed especially nice for Cloud in a famous date spot, but being his awkward self, he didn't notice (because he barely looked at her) ;)
 

BoxFBall

Lv. 25 Adventurer
Yes, cloti fans have picked up on that lol. Me, I noticed that Tifa was dressed especially nice for Cloud in a famous date spot, but being his awkward self, he didn't notice (because he barely looked at her) ;)

Cloud can barely look anyone in the eye for too long from what I've noticed, so at 14 it was probably worse, he always thought he wasn't good enough for her. Damn near every coversation he has with anyone unless he needs something from them is dismissive, the notable exceptions are Tifa and to a lesser extent Aerith.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
So since analyzing videos of people’s takes on the LTD seemed like a way to breathe some kind of life into a really tired topic, I wonder what thoughts you guys might have about these videos:
 

Maidenofwar

They/Them
What do all think about the change on main creator for the remake and how it will influence or effect the LT if any? I've seen people making some noise elsewhere, I've seen people think of it being a positive thing for Clerith and being happy. Personally I think it might effect things but only to a certain extent, for example I think the game might show/prove Cloud does love Aerith romantically beyond a shadow of a doubt but I don't think there will be any drastic changes to the storyline and I still think there will be more Cloud and Tifa content as well ? With Hamiguchi's comments like on the rooftop scene I think he might indeed like the Cloud and Aerith pair and with all the comments from staff, etc on romantic tracks, atmospheres, their time together being mentioned date like, and what nots I personally feel that Clerith has been well fed and really enjoyed my time with remake and medias but I can't say the same didn't apply to C/T. I can only hope the rest of the remake also has something for everyones and that Hamiguchi is fair and professional with everything :aeriball::cloudball::tifaball:cloudball::zackball::aeriball::tifaball:aeriball::zackball::cloudball:
 

a_apple 2.0

Pro Adventurer
AKA
a_apple
What do all think about the change on main creator for the remake and how it will influence or effect the LT if any? I've seen people making some noise elsewhere, I've seen people think of it being a positive thing for Clerith and being happy. Personally I think it might effect things but only to a certain extent, for example I think the game might show/prove Cloud does love Aerith romantically beyond a shadow of a doubt but I don't think there will be any drastic changes to the storyline and I still think there will be more Cloud and Tifa content as well ? With Hamiguchi's comments like on the rooftop scene I think he might indeed like the Cloud and Aerith pair and with all the comments from staff, etc on romantic tracks, atmospheres, their time together being mentioned date like, and what nots I personally feel that Clerith has been well fed and really enjoyed my time with remake and medias but I can't say the same didn't apply to C/T. I can only hope the rest of the remake also has something for everyones and that Hamiguchi is fair and professional with everything :aeriball::cloudball::tifaball:cloudball::zackball::aeriball::tifaball:aeriball::zackball::cloudball:
I'm pretty certain that the character relationships are already set in stone lol
Like that's something you do from point one, to determine how characters relate to each other and where their journey will take them.

Also if you really think about it Nomura was actually only the director of AC but ff7/the compilation is still considered his baby.

A good example is CC and BC, Tabata was the director of those games and Nomura was only a designer but from the interviews you can tell that he was heavily involved in the story, world building and characters. I think he Kitase and Nojima are giving the shots with everything that relates to the story and the characters, and the other directors are doing the technical non creative stuff, like the remake is the foundation of everything to come and every new title builds on it there is no need for Nomura to do the nitty gritty stuff anymore, since the way how the battle system works/characters look and move/etc is already established.

Edit:
Just a random note here I was looking at a old CC interview with Nomura and this part reminded me so much of the way whenever we hear the devs talk about the remake, it's kinda funny :desu:

Will the parts that FFVII didn’t really go into deeply be shown in CC in more detail?
Nomura: “I think there might be parts where people’s interpretations differ, but in regards to these parts I think CC will be the creator’s answers to them.”


With Zack as the lead, won’t the story have a sad ending?
Nomura: “I think there’s hope in the ending. Maybe people will understand what we were trying to do when they watch the final scenes.”
 
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KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
What do all think about the change on main creator for the remake and how it will influence or effect the LT if any? I've seen people making some noise elsewhere, I've seen people think of it being a positive thing for Clerith and being happy. Personally I think it might effect things but only to a certain extent, for example I think the game might show/prove Cloud does love Aerith romantically beyond a shadow of a doubt but I don't think there will be any drastic changes to the storyline and I still think there will be more Cloud and Tifa content as well ? With Hamiguchi's comments like on the rooftop scene I think he might indeed like the Cloud and Aerith pair and with all the comments from staff, etc on romantic tracks, atmospheres, their time together being mentioned date like, and what nots I personally feel that Clerith has been well fed and really enjoyed my time with remake and medias but I can't say the same didn't apply to C/T. I can only hope the rest of the remake also has something for everyones and that Hamiguchi is fair and professional with everything :aeriball::cloudball::tifaball:cloudball::zackball::aeriball::tifaball:aeriball::zackball::cloudball:
The roles may shift but it’s still the same creative team so if you like what’s in the remake then you’ll probably like whatever’s next unless if they do something wildly out of left field. As far as the devs’ statements go, people on social media (not saying you, just in general) have a weird way of fishing for every bit of “confirmation” every time the devs say something even remotely alluding to romance. In the end, all it does is turn everything into another Tifa vs Aerith fight that I think really misses the point of why there’s two love interests. I guess what I’m saying is not everything the devs say is about shipping or “confirming”/“feeding” a ship or pitting the ships against each other, and it’s probably better to just enjoy the ship for what it is.

Nomura: “I think there’s hope in the ending. Maybe people will understand what we were trying to do when they watch the final scenes.”
God, what a troll, I love it
 

Dr Frasier Crane

Lv. 25 Adventurer
My interpretation is that Hamaguchi is going to be the day-in-day-out director: he will manage the project and it’s key deliveries and milestones, and that he comes from a technical background and can more fluently discuss coding and engine challenges than perhaps Nomura can. Nomura will remain as the creative director behind Final Fantasy VII as a series, but he can now split his time across other projects including future Kingdom Hearts entries, the TWEWY sequel and anime, and anything else he decides to produce. I believe Kitase and Nojima aren’t going anywhere either, so while Hamaguchi will be able to exert some influence on Remake’s sequels, he will still have to defer to and receive sign-off from multiple stakeholders who have rank and seniority over him. Hamaguchi is clearly a new rising star at SE, much needed after Tabata’s sudden departure, and I’m sure he’ll graduate to directing his own original mainline game eventually, but we have to remember that this is Japanese working environment and unless everyone has agreed to take Remake’s story in a certain direction I don’t think Hamaguchi is going to stand-up and rock the boat on behalf of whatever relationship preferences he might have.

From a cloti perspective, I’m not all that concerned unless they announce that Nojima will no longer be involved in writing the sequels. Then I might start sweating a bit. Then again, Kitase was responsible for the Shinra rooftop scene where Tifa saves Cloud, and he’s gone on the record about his love for the Lifestream scene, so perhaps cloti has got an ally in Kitase.

However, I wonder what’s going on with the OG Clerith man: Toriyama. I suspected Nomura might move on to a producer-type role for the sequels, and that Toriyama and Hamaguchi would remain as co-directors. Will Toriyama still be involved with the sequels or has he moved on to another project? I sense that Toriyama is on a ‘redemption arc’ at the moment following the XIII trilogy and what better way to continue this narrative than to return to the beloved sub-series he originally cut his directing teeth on. After Remake’s success, I suspect that X-3 has finally been greenlit before everyone involved in those games gets too old, too.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
It indeed is. I do think they all have their preferences though, but the story is clear. Hamaguchi joining as the next director probably won't change that. However, I do consider Nojima to really, really enjoy cloti - as weird as it is, I think he's very proud of that pair, and he enjoys it a lot. It's not by chance that a lot of pro-cloti comments come from him, and he's the writer! It's probably writing AC/C and the novellas that made him enjoy them, I think, especially since they are so realistic, which is a feat in a Final Fantasy, after all. I, myself as someone who writes, really admire that. And once again, I don't think it will stop them from putting both cloti and clerith in the next game, because they want their fans to be happy, and it's part of how JRPGs operate.

Speaking of good posts to read, I'd recommand this one because it's very detailed. She wrote a lot about the LTD, though I think it's wearing her patience thin :D But this post is a good recap, and she reminded everyone that she's clerith and if she saw anything that would comment on Cloud's feelings being romantic towards Aerith, she'd be the first to scream it everywhere :') I think @Fiz should read this one, if he wants to understand why people think cloti is canon. And again I will say this as a cloti, but clerith is a valid ship, both cloti and clerith talk to different people.

Speaking of the LTD, as I'm replaying the OG right now, I'm trying to compare a bit how the OG and Remake are made, LTD-wise. I will say this but: the OG pushed Aerith as the "romantic" outcome, the Remake pushes Tifa as the romantic outcome. And this stems from the fact that they do not use the same tricks for the players - it's part of the reason why they want everyone to play the OG and to be aware of the Compilation. People knowing Aerith's fate is a big factor, as you'll see why.

Now, what do I mean when I say "push"? In the OG, you get clerith scenes even if you chose to favour Tifa. In Remake, you get cloti scenes (a LOT), even if you chose to favour Aerith. In the OG, you notably get Cloud to stutter in Cosmo Canyon "I... We" when he talks to Aerith and tries to cheer her up. And you get the death scene which is superrrrrrrr romantic (it hits all the tropes). Meanwhile the Lifestream scene and the Highwind scene don't get any beautiful video, yet they're super important for Cloud. Because of this, players tend to think "it's in the past" for the Lifestream scene when no, it's not in the past for Cloud, it's still his current feelings. However, with the way Remake is being made, the change will be BIG this time around. Honestly the Lifestream scene looks really weird and is a bit clunky - but my guess is that the Remake is going to make it really beautiful and more mysterious. It will be the big turn of the whole series of games and, seeing how important it is for Cloud, it's going to be really impacting. But I think part of the LTD stems from the difference of Aerith's death scene versus the Lifestream scene - the first is extremely impactful and beautiful and romantic, the second is extremely important but you can totally deem it as "in the past" so it doesn't cross your idea of the canon clerith ending. Again, in the Highwind scene, you can get the lower affection one (even if there is no rejection there, contrarily to what people have been saying...), and the Highwind high affection scene does not get a pretty video nor Cloud's reaction.

Meanwhile in Remake, you get Cloud wanting to comfort Tifa, and helping her specifically, being here for her emotionally when the pillar falls. You get him looking at her all the time, you have her saving him and him saving her. You get the train roll which only Tifa haters will escape by timing out (but it means you are a terrible player and a terrible SOLDIER lol). You get everyone asking or talking about Tifa to Cloud. She is extremely singled out, compared to the OG, while some cleriths interactions have disappeared. It is not 50/50. Hell you even get Aerith telling Cloud to not fall in love with her because it's not real. And even I think i'ts harsh. This is what I mean when I say Remake is based on different tricks for the player. This time around, they don't have to push Aerith as Cloud's romantic outcome to make us love her - we will have her around for at least 2 games if not more. The trick is to make us wonder if we can save her or not. There are much, much less "romance" options in the game; just a few sidequests, and who you wake up in the sewers. I would hardly call that "romancing". Remake has less of these because the devs don't have to rely on the LTD anymore to tell their story, which also allows them to push for cloti - it was another problem of the OG, as I said numerous times; it came as such surprise that people did not believe in it. This time when the Lifestream scene will hit, people will be like "FINALLY!" instead of "uh, say that again?". Although I must say, the scene where Sephiroth manipulates them in Northern Crater to make them doubt of Cloud's identity definitely is going to hit so haaaaaaaaaard.

Playing the OG, we could see Zack's shadow, but it was easily missable. It's easy to see that in Midgar for Remake the devs have chosen to have Aerith confront Zack's death at the end of Remake. It's, I'd say, a little bit earlier than the OG, however it does change a lot of things, in game, for clerith as it colours a lot of their early interactions (sector 5, up until their talk in the park). Aerith says there that she wants and needs to move on, so she recognises it, but she's not able to until at least the end of the game. I do think that part of that weird ending is also a way for Aerith to be able to move on - and at the same time, she'll have even more questions as she saw Zack helping Cloud walk towards Midgar, yet only Cloud is there. So I think she knows something terrible has happened to him.

Some ramblings about Aerith....

Part of Aerith's own character arc growth is to learn to move on, and that's why we'll have more clerith in the next game. In the OG, everything went on so fast that it was easy to miss; in Remake, they're truly expanding that side of Aerith. However, they're also expanding the side of Aerith who knows a lot and whose task against Sephiroth seems to take a larger part in her own character arc, so I don't really know what this means for clerith. In the OG, it was very important for her own arc to voice out to Cloud that she wanted to meet the real him in the GS, which is why I consider it as the canon outcome (and the reason why the HA HW scene is the canon route is exactly the same kind of thoughts, it's the only moment when Tifa gets to voice out her feelings). The way she's voiced her feelings this time make me ponder; I always wonder, if I were in Aerith's shoes in Remake, knowing about Cloud's feelings - which she understood when she saw her flower on Tifa's counter - wouldn't I want to take a little distance and be just friends, to not get hurt? Here it's like... She got hurt before her own feelings were even there? But again, it's not because you don't want to get close to someone that it doesn't happen - and it will certainly happen. In the OG and Compilation, Aerith fell for Cloud, and I do expect this to happen again because Remake is an OG + Compilation tie-in.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
To say a pairing is being “pushed” is always such a weird phrase to me because if in the end, it doesn’t end up happening anyways, can we really say it’s being “pushed”? We could say the OG pushes Cloud and Aerith’s strictly going on the Gold Saucer date because there’s a quantifiable way of measuring that her date is the default option but whether or not that pushes them as a romantic pairing is a separate issue I think, considering they don’t actually end up getting together regardless.

In terms of Aerith’s death vs the Lifestream, I would say both scenes work even if you take the romance element out of them but the Lifestream scene is such a weird and abstract scene that it’s probably not as accessible compared to the more straightforward shock and sadness of losing a friend. So naturally, the Aerith death scene will be the one that gets talked about the most and seeing as the game wants you to think Cloud and Aerith might get together, of course the romantic angle will stick with people as well.

I wonder if the game will lean more into Aerith’s feelings than Cloud because let’s be honest, Cloud is pretty dense. He didn’t even know Aerith liked him and he just doesn’t get the chance to really go further with her like he does with Tifa. But Aerith’s feelings of being conflicted between Cloud and Zack are a lot more pronounced by comparison.

Who knows what’s going to happen with Zack at this point, but I think the truly sad part is that let’s say Aerith does move from Zack. Now, she’s interested in Cloud but also seems to be aware that he’s not truly “himself” and that there’s something between him and Tifa AND that she’s going to die. So perhaps she knows she can’t really act on her own feelings because it wouldn’t be fair to anybody involved. Imagine building a relationship with somebody on the premise that they have already been in love with somebody else for years but then had those feelings and memories tampered with by an alien. And also you’ve got like, three or so weeks to live.

The way Cloud/Tifa/Aerith mirrors Aerith/Zack/Cloud always interested me. Cloud has an opportunity to move on from Aerith and settle with Tifa, who he’s already liked for years anyways, but Aerith doesn’t get that same opportunity to really move on with Cloud. Not that this means Cloud and Aerith won’t get any moments anyways, but I would imagine all of the knowledge Aerith has will just make all those moments bittersweet as hell.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
When I say "push" for the OG specifically, there's also the fact that there are a lot of "romance" options when you talk to her/people, even the lightest things - which is honestly annoying because you have to check everything if you want to be sure to not do the Aerith GS date. Like in the prison, when you enquire about the others in the other cells, the option to talk to her is last, but it's the one where your cursor is. Same in the sewers, Aerith is much closer compared to Tifa. In that sense, the game "pushes" Aerith, but it's also a mechanism that has two purposes: first, to make use care about her; second to serve the "illusion" of Cloud being an ex-SOLDIER, with the guy serving as a bodyguard to the princess (she has a weapon named Princess' staff or something like this). Everything is made to obfuscate Tifa's true role in the OG, and that is something that is gone in Remake.

As I said, the thing that I really find striking about Remake is how the LTD mechanism is basically inexistant. They are telling the story as they want it, and the LTD is not a mechanism that served to obfuscate the truth anymore. But because of its role in the OG, yes, it did push Aerith as the logical love interest - albeit it was a trick to confuse the players.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
When I say "push" for the OG specifically, there's also the fact that there are a lot of "romance" options when you talk to her/people, even the lightest things - which is honestly annoying because you have to check everything if you want to be sure to not do the Aerith GS date. Like in the prison, when you enquire about the others in the other cells, the option to talk to her is last, but it's the one where your cursor is. Same in the sewers, Aerith is much closer compared to Tifa. In that sense, the game "pushes" Aerith, but it's also a mechanism that has two purposes: first, to make use care about her; second to serve the "illusion" of Cloud being an ex-SOLDIER, with the guy serving as a bodyguard to the princess (she has a weapon named Princess' staff or something like this). Everything is made to obfuscate Tifa's true role in the OG, and that is something that is gone in Remake.

As I said, the thing that I really find striking about Remake is how the LTD mechanism is basically inexistant. They are telling the story as they want it, and the LTD is not a mechanism that served to obfuscate the truth anymore. But because of its role in the OG, yes, it did push Aerith as the logical love interest - albeit it was a trick to confuse the players.
That’s the thing though, the remake doesn’t give romance options any more than the OG does, which is to say it doesn’t really give any...you get a date option in the OG but no control over Cloud’s romantic status
 

Dr Frasier Crane

Lv. 25 Adventurer
Does anybody else find it weird to assign ships to each of the devs?

Haha. Guilty as charged. I agree that it’s weird and that I got carried away in my last post. I think my points would be better framed via the following premise: each of the creative leads on Final Fantasy VII’s multiple instalments have different interests and priorities as storytellers, and I think we can point to statements they have made and their past work as evidence of the things they are interested in. Do the creative leads gather in a meeting room on the 22nd floor and discuss their preferred ships and the meaning of terms like “koibito”? Probably not. Is Nojima interested in exploring how things don’t necessarily go smoothly for heroes in their lives and relationships after saving the world? Absolutely. He’s written books for both FFVII and FFX that do precisely that. Is Toriyama interested in themes of changing fates and undoing the past? Maybe? I don’t understand Toriyama well enough as a storyteller to make any strong claims. I’m not sure how much of X’s storytelling Toriyama was responsible for and after playing XIII about 3 times, I’m still not very clear on what that game was about or what it was trying to do. Is Nomura more interested in brotherhood and friendships between men, and less interested in love and romance? I would say that his work on Kingdom Hearts (Sora and Riku) and his original plans for Versus XIII support this claim.

I’m sure someone else has made this point before, but I imagine that the split in the VII fandom on which relationships they prefer is only part of the reason for the continued ambiguity on which part of the triangle is more “canon” or whatever measure we want to use. I think the other part of the reason for the continued ambiguity is because the creators themselves either haven’t come to an agreement, or because it probably isn’t as important to them to be precise about where Cloud sleeps as it is for fans like us. Perhaps they think ambiguity makes for good storytelling.

So to bring this full-circle, in response to MaidenofWar’s original post I think there is a conversation to be had around the creative leads behind FFVII and how each of them may steer the story in different ways, but without comprehensive understanding and evidence of what these authors are interested in and how decisions are made on this project, this conversation is unlikely to bear much fruit. We’d be better off waiting for the sequels to come out and letting them speak for themselves!

Suddenly, this quote from David Lynch comes to mind:
hwItTPz_d.webp
(I’m so sorry, Dave. I’ll try to be better. I promise.)

So, if we follow Dave’s advice and let the game do the talking, does the image below mean the same thing to everyone here as it does to me? Because if so, then I think it’s pretty clear where this story is going.

FINAL-FANTASY-VII-REMAKE_20200328225400-e1585918728878.png
 

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
It indeed is. I do think they all have their preferences though, but the story is clear. Hamaguchi joining as the next director probably won't change that. However, I do consider Nojima to really, really enjoy cloti - as weird as it is, I think he's very proud of that pair, and he enjoys it a lot. It's not by chance that a lot of pro-cloti comments come from him, and he's the writer! It's probably writing AC/C and the novellas that made him enjoy them, I think, especially since they are so realistic, which is a feat in a Final Fantasy, after all. I, myself as someone who writes, really admire that. And once again, I don't think it will stop them from putting both cloti and clerith in the next game, because they want their fans to be happy, and it's part of how JRPGs operate.

Speaking of good posts to read, I'd recommand this one because it's very detailed. She wrote a lot about the LTD, though I think it's wearing her patience thin :D But this post is a good recap, and she reminded everyone that she's clerith and if she saw anything that would comment on Cloud's feelings being romantic towards Aerith, she'd be the first to scream it everywhere :') I think @Fiz should read this one, if he wants to understand why people think cloti is canon. And again I will say this as a cloti, but clerith is a valid ship, both cloti and clerith talk to different people.

Speaking of the LTD, as I'm replaying the OG right now, I'm trying to compare a bit how the OG and Remake are made, LTD-wise. I will say this but: the OG pushed Aerith as the "romantic" outcome, the Remake pushes Tifa as the romantic outcome. And this stems from the fact that they do not use the same tricks for the players - it's part of the reason why they want everyone to play the OG and to be aware of the Compilation. People knowing Aerith's fate is a big factor, as you'll see why.

Now, what do I mean when I say "push"? In the OG, you get clerith scenes even if you chose to favour Tifa. In Remake, you get cloti scenes (a LOT), even if you chose to favour Aerith. In the OG, you notably get Cloud to stutter in Cosmo Canyon "I... We" when he talks to Aerith and tries to cheer her up. And you get the death scene which is superrrrrrrr romantic (it hits all the tropes). Meanwhile the Lifestream scene and the Highwind scene don't get any beautiful video, yet they're super important for Cloud. Because of this, players tend to think "it's in the past" for the Lifestream scene when no, it's not in the past for Cloud, it's still his current feelings. However, with the way Remake is being made, the change will be BIG this time around. Honestly the Lifestream scene looks really weird and is a bit clunky - but my guess is that the Remake is going to make it really beautiful and more mysterious. It will be the big turn of the whole series of games and, seeing how important it is for Cloud, it's going to be really impacting. But I think part of the LTD stems from the difference of Aerith's death scene versus the Lifestream scene - the first is extremely impactful and beautiful and romantic, the second is extremely important but you can totally deem it as "in the past" so it doesn't cross your idea of the canon clerith ending. Again, in the Highwind scene, you can get the lower affection one (even if there is no rejection there, contrarily to what people have been saying...), and the Highwind high affection scene does not get a pretty video nor Cloud's reaction.

Meanwhile in Remake, you get Cloud wanting to comfort Tifa, and helping her specifically, being here for her emotionally when the pillar falls. You get him looking at her all the time, you have her saving him and him saving her. You get the train roll which only Tifa haters will escape by timing out (but it means you are a terrible player and a terrible SOLDIER lol). You get everyone asking or talking about Tifa to Cloud. She is extremely singled out, compared to the OG, while some cleriths interactions have disappeared. It is not 50/50. Hell you even get Aerith telling Cloud to not fall in love with her because it's not real. And even I think i'ts harsh. This is what I mean when I say Remake is based on different tricks for the player. This time around, they don't have to push Aerith as Cloud's romantic outcome to make us love her - we will have her around for at least 2 games if not more. The trick is to make us wonder if we can save her or not. There are much, much less "romance" options in the game; just a few sidequests, and who you wake up in the sewers. I would hardly call that "romancing". Remake has less of these because the devs don't have to rely on the LTD anymore to tell their story, which also allows them to push for cloti - it was another problem of the OG, as I said numerous times; it came as such surprise that people did not believe in it. This time when the Lifestream scene will hit, people will be like "FINALLY!" instead of "uh, say that again?". Although I must say, the scene where Sephiroth manipulates them in Northern Crater to make them doubt of Cloud's identity definitely is going to hit so haaaaaaaaaard.

Playing the OG, we could see Zack's shadow, but it was easily missable. It's easy to see that in Midgar for Remake the devs have chosen to have Aerith confront Zack's death at the end of Remake. It's, I'd say, a little bit earlier than the OG, however it does change a lot of things, in game, for clerith as it colours a lot of their early interactions (sector 5, up until their talk in the park). Aerith says there that she wants and needs to move on, so she recognises it, but she's not able to until at least the end of the game. I do think that part of that weird ending is also a way for Aerith to be able to move on - and at the same time, she'll have even more questions as she saw Zack helping Cloud walk towards Midgar, yet only Cloud is there. So I think she knows something terrible has happened to him.

Some ramblings about Aerith....

Part of Aerith's own character arc growth is to learn to move on, and that's why we'll have more clerith in the next game. In the OG, everything went on so fast that it was easy to miss; in Remake, they're truly expanding that side of Aerith. However, they're also expanding the side of Aerith who knows a lot and whose task against Sephiroth seems to take a larger part in her own character arc, so I don't really know what this means for clerith. In the OG, it was very important for her own arc to voice out to Cloud that she wanted to meet the real him in the GS, which is why I consider it as the canon outcome (and the reason why the HA HW scene is the canon route is exactly the same kind of thoughts, it's the only moment when Tifa gets to voice out her feelings). The way she's voiced her feelings this time make me ponder; I always wonder, if I were in Aerith's shoes in Remake, knowing about Cloud's feelings - which she understood when she saw her flower on Tifa's counter - wouldn't I want to take a little distance and be just friends, to not get hurt? Here it's like... She got hurt before her own feelings were even there? But again, it's not because you don't want to get close to someone that it doesn't happen - and it will certainly happen. In the OG and Compilation, Aerith fell for Cloud, and I do expect this to happen again because Remake is an OG + Compilation tie-in.

Honestly, I think they're just going to elaborate on her arc from the original. "Moving on" was never a part of Aerith's character arc(and she definitely fails by the end of Remake at doing it), because it was never her destiny to be with Cloud or anyone else. There is nothing for Aerith to move on to except her fate. Aerith's arc was always about embracing her destiny, meaning her death is still set in stone.

What's probably going to happen is that Aerith will figure out the hard way that she can't change destiny, even with the whispers and harbinger defeated. This will cause Aerith to have some sort of emotional crisis which Zack will help her with, and he will inform her about Minerva. Aerith will get it in her mind that she will need to replace Minerva, but in order to do that she'll also have to defeat Genesis and acquire the proto-materia.

Thirdly, Remake-Aerith comes off like the queen of cloti-shipping, so I don't think the devs intend to do much more with clerith. On top of that, if despair and guilt are what causes Cloud's mind to sprout Sephiroth in AC, then in order to defeat Sephiroth Zack and Aerith will need to sacrifice themselves in such a way that Cloud's psyche isn't affected by it.

Ultimately, I think Aerith's role and feelings for Cloud are more maternal than romantic, regardless of what she thinks they were starting out. This is confirmed by Cloud's freudian slip during AC where he called her "mother" in the lifestream. This is referenced in the Remake when Cloud has a vision of his mother after he decides to sleep over at Aerith's house. Aerith views Cloud as a delicate flower who needs nurturing because she is "mother nature." This is evidenced by how she talks about Cloud in OtWtaS.
 
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null

Mr. Thou
AKA
null
Reminds me of that time Cloud tried to face tank a Megaflare and the camera zoomed on the reflection in his left eye.
 

Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
I thought Frasier was referencing a theory I saw a while back, something to do with the light pattern in Cloud's eye matching a pattern in Aerith's painting....dunno though, and I can't even find the source for that theory now, darn.
 

Dr Frasier Crane

Lv. 25 Adventurer
Perhaps I’m reading that shot the wrong way then. Following the memory of Cloud’s mother urging him to meet an older woman, which clearly ties into his present experiences with Aerith, I thought this shot of his eye with these deliberate and impossible lights sparkling in them is intended to subvert the meaning of that memory by visually referencing another character:

6e801276a65018725f3df115d7305ffc.jpg

If there’s other theories about the meaning of that shot @Roundhouse, I’d be happy to hear them.
 

MasterMoogle

Pro Adventurer
Honestly, I think they're just going to elaborate on her arc from the original. "Moving on" was never a part of Aerith's character arc(and she definitely fails by the end of Remake at doing it), because it was never her destiny to be with Cloud or anyone else. There is nothing for Aerith to move on to except her fate. Aerith's arc was always about embracing her destiny, meaning her death is still set in stone.

What's probably going to happen is that Aerith will figure out the hard way that she can't change destiny, even with the whispers and harbinger defeated. This will cause Aerith to have some sort of emotional crisis which Zack will help her with, and he will inform her about Minerva. Aerith will get it in her mind that she will need to replace Minerva, but in order to do that she'll also have to defeat Genesis and acquire the proto-materia.

Thirdly, Remake-Aerith comes off like the queen of cloti-shipping, so I don't think the devs intend to do much more with clerith. On top of that, if despair and guilt are what causes Cloud's mind to sprout Sephiroth in AC, then in order to defeat Sephiroth Zack and Aerith will need to sacrifice themselves in such a way that Cloud's psyche isn't affected by it.

Ultimately, I think Aerith's role and feelings for Cloud are more maternal than romantic, regardless of what she thinks they were starting out. This is confirmed by Cloud's freudian slip during AC where he called her "mother" in the lifestream. This is referenced in the Remake when Cloud has a vision of his mother after he decides to sleep over at Aerith's house. Aerith views Cloud as a delicate flower who needs nurturing because she is "mother nature." This is evidenced by how she talks about Cloud in OtWtaS.

Thinking on this a bit, I'm getting kind of tired of experiencing the story from Cloud's perspective. At this point, I'd rather experience the story from Aerith's. Her story is far more interesting and relevant to the main plot at this point. I think the developers will give us this opportunity at some point in the future. If the story of Remake continues to follow the path of the OG up until the Temple of the Ancients, I think Aerith will be the protagonist post-TotA, at least until she dies.

That said, there's little guarantee the story will follow the same trajectory of the original game. We probably will visit the Golden Saucer, but at this point, there's little reason to include dating options.
 
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