SPOILERS LTD Remake — It's like New Coke except ... no, it's exactly like New Coke

[KindOfBlue]

Yes, he wavered prior to her death, but we don't SEE that post OG. He clearly was/is with Tifa. I doubt if Cloud still has feelings for Aerith, he would've continued the relationship with Tifa.

Isn’t that what the whole argument about what’s going on in AC is centered on though? Mind you, I much prefer what the devs have actually said about the story, but they never outright denied the “Cloud wants to be with Aerith” thing either so doing so would certainly bring me the closure I’m looking for

They'll just get on social media and scream in perpetuity about how terrible the writing is while upvoting each other. (See also: Attack on Titan.)

Maybe it’s just me but I’d much prefer that than the current situation lol I’d say just let them be mad all they want, the story is what the story is

I remember back when AC was released, a friend of mine who didn't play the OG watched it and was convinced Cloud loves Aerith more no matter what I told her about the game. She never denied Cloti though. Either way, I'm quite certain they were being deliberately vague in AC. Not that it matters much because one of them is dead and he's practically raising kids with the other one.

I do think it's likely for Cloud to have some lingering feelings for Aerith. It might not be like the kind of bond he has with Tifa after all they've been through, but I think he would be a moron if he said, "No I never thought about Aerith. It was always Tifa." Or even, "I no longer feel a thing about Aerith."

I think that’s what irks me about the whole thing and about people who think the remake should allow for multiple endings for Tifa and Aerith and Jessie lol it just feels so…noncommittal, I guess? It’s like, with everything we already know about Cloud and Tifa I’m like just pull the damn trigger already

All it takes is a tiny tweak to turn the C/A story to a Z/A one....and you don't even have to have Zack in for multiverse /parallel universe shenanigans. I really do think this is what they're committing to.

It would certainly speak to another pretty contentious aspect of the LTD, the “is Aerith really over Zack” thing

I remember this! When @KindOfBlue said that what would kill the LTD for her (him?) was a confirmation of girlfriend / wife....I was like, wait, didn't an interview call Tifa koibito?

But then I remembered the internet's arguments were:
"It was koi <SPACE> bito. There was a <SPACE>"
"They never said she was CLOUD'S koi <SPACE> bito. It's used to describe her character that she can be a good girlfriend. But not to Cloud"
"Koi <SPACE> bito means sweetheart in English. Tifa was like a sweetheart. I call nice people "sweetheart" all the time!"

Good times, early 2000ies.

Him thankfully I wasn’t around during the earlier years of the LTD because the arguments I’ve read on this site and other sites going back years ago are just…let’s just say fascinating (it’s always fun when I recognize names by the way, it’s like recognizing somebody from fight club outside of fight club lol).

Funny thing about that word though, I’ve seen people say it means “beloved”, “lover”, “sweetheart” depending on the context (and conveniently depending on if we’re talking about that quote about Tifa or the one from Maiden with Aerith). To my American ears, when I hear “lover”, I think of specifically a sexual relationship, while “beloved” sounds like a generally romantic term that could range from infatuation all the way through to marriage (doesn’t really make sense grammatically to call somebody “a beloved” but my impression is that the general idea of the word is similar to this). “Sweetheart” reminds me of the phrase “high school sweetheart” which in itself doesn’t speak to the intensity of the relationship other than it involves high schoolers, so it’s about as intense as you can imagine. By itself though, “sweetheart” sounds like either a compliment or a nickname like you mentioned.

So let’s assume Maiden is canon, for Cloud to be described as “more than a friend (to Aerith) for she loved him”, somehow saying “she loved him” sounds more vague to me than “he was her lover/beloved” just because the latter phrasing sounds like they did in fact have a romantic relationship. Which…they didn’t really aside from liking each other and going on a date. So for people who claim Cloud and Aerith were in a relationship, I’d have to ask the similar question of “when and where in the story did they become boyfriend and girlfriend then?”

I think that by itself would put Cloti and Clerith (I friggin’ hate using and reading these stupid ass ship names lmao) on an even playing field, that we don’t get a moment where either couple pledges exclusivity to one another by becoming boyfriend and girlfriend. BUT because we get so much more detail about Cloud and Tifa’s feelings for each other and not in a vague way, that’s why I’m like well you might as well just call them boyfriend and girlfriend already lol.

Did that kill the LTD? Obviously not, yet what else can SE do, really?

It really just boils down to word choice, that’s it. Had they specifically said girlfriend or wife right there, we probably wouldn’t be talking about it anymore lmao.

But back in late April or May in 2019, when I was new to this fandom, I ran into a tweet from a CxA fan that asked if anyone could help them understand what the word meant when describing Tifa. We actually had a really nice conversation about it. I think they may have just been misguided due to some essays they read on the internet that perpetuated these false claims. Eventually someone came and asked her to block me (which she didn't), but we said good bye, and that was the end of it. This was before Remake came out and Aerith ends up being the one who uses the word when asking about Tifa.

So in comparing how that word was used to describe both what Tifa is to Cloud and how Aerith feels about him, and considering the distinction I made to @frosty about “beloved” vs “lover” vs “sweetheart”, which translations do you think would make more sense for those contexts?

 

[Thenir]

So let’s assume Maiden is canon, for Cloud to be described as “more than a friend (to Aerith) for she loved him”, somehow saying “she loved him” sounds more vague to me than “he was her lover/beloved” just because the latter phrasing sounds like they did in fact have a romantic relationship.

This quote is not from Maiden but from Case of Lifestream White and the verb used in the English revised version is "she had loved him". Anyway I saw people claiming that in other localizations (for sure in the French, German and Italian ones) Aerith says "she loves him / he is her lover" or something like that. Which makes me rethink once again if maybe the issue here is that SE doesn't give context to the localizers (looking at you "family of friends").

Maiden (and Dismantled, but I'm almost sure Matsuyama wrote also the quotes of that guide book) said something more direct like that she loved Cloud more than Zack. I sincerely find this statement a bit childish even if taking into consideration just the OG but in the light of the compilation it just doesn't make sense. She "saw" Zack dying three months before, after actively waiting for him for five years, a statement like that doesn't fit the situation and it doesn't reflect a realistic human emotional reaction.

 

[Phantasia]

Maiden (and Dismantled, but I'm almost sure Matsuyama wrote also the quotes of that guide book) said something more direct like that she loved Cloud more than Zack. I sincerely find this statement a bit childish even if taking into consideration just the OG but in the light of the compilation it just doesn't make sense. She "saw" Zack dying three months before, after actively waiting for him for five years, a statement like that doesn't fit the situation and it doesn't reflect a realistic human emotional reaction.

*Zack and Aerith: Years in a relationship;

*Zack: Dies trying to meet Aerith again;

*Aerith: Feels his dead but is in denial. Looking for traces of him in a person she just meet. Still wearing pink hoping to see him again;

*(Inserting Remake/Intermission personal theory) Zack: His spirit is trying to reach her one last time;

*Aerith: Dies while trying to save the planet. Reunited with Zack after dead.

*Last scene of Advent Children: Zack and Aerith walk away to the afterlife or whatever;

*Last scene of Remake: Zack walking past Aerith (Cloud was there "twice" but apparently he's not important/not in frame);

"That was puppy love." ~ Some people apparently...

 

[odekopeko]

So in comparing how that word was used to describe both what Tifa is to Cloud and how Aerith feels about him, and considering the distinction I made to @frosty about “beloved” vs “lover” vs “sweetheart”, which translations do you think would make more sense for those contexts?

I believe I remember this line from On the Way to a Smile novel, and agreed with the official English translation “for she had loved him” because the literal translation isn’t always correct within context. She was speaking of all the things he symbolized. She called him her “friend”, and only after she stated that did she change her mind—as an afterthought—to no, she liked him more than that, as a woman loves a man. That was the context I believe of what was said in the On the Way to a Smile novel, and this actually corroborates with what we know from the game. She dies before she could ever tell him how she feels, or even had time to process her feelings really. I haven’t read Maiden. Did it say that too? In any case it’s not the same as them describing Tifa being someone’s significant other in an interview.

Edit: Nvm it seems like Maiden doesn’t based on other’s posts.

 

[LNK]

Isn’t that what the whole argument about what’s going on in AC is centered on though?

I thought that was just Cloud struggling with guilt. His guilt from not being able to save Aerith from Sephiroth. I didn't think Cloud had any real feelings for her post OG.

 

[eleamaya]

she's very much like any other woman who's been left behind by a man

This is very JP. I remember in other forums or discord, someone who studied JP literature said this romantic theme has been existing ever since in classic literature. Yeah, a man leaving his woman to face his own problem but at the end, he returns. In manga, I find this form on:
- Rurouni Kenshin, Kyoto/Shishio Arc, when Kenshin said goodbye to Kaoru and leave for Kyoto.
- Naruto, Sasuke did this to Sakura right?
- One Piece, while I'm Sanji x Nami shipper and this is what I see when Sanji left the crews, particularly Nami. (Man, the anime made it very shippy just like the other two above).

Cloud didnt say goodbye to Tifa, we know he just left. But the situation is similar. Anyone here can add the examples?

Idk about western perspective, maybe they think the woman should break up with a guy like this and move on? Because the woman staying loyal and waits for him to return or that she pursuing him and not letting him face it all alone is very outdated and traditional? Feminism? And a man who did that is completely a jerk? And this is why most of them initially think like Clerith think the first time they watched AC?

Maiden (and Dismantled, but I'm almost sure Matsuyama wrote also the quotes of that guide book) said something more direct like that she loved Cloud more than Zack. I sincerely find this statement a bit childish even if taking into consideration just the OG but in the light of the compilation it just doesn't make sense. She "saw" Zack dying three months before, after actively waiting for him for five years, a statement like that doesn't fit the situation and it doesn't reflect a realistic human emotional reaction.

*Zack and Aerith: Years in a relationship;
*Zack: Dies trying to meet Aerith again;
*Aerith: Feels his dead but is in denial. Looking for traces of him in a person she just meet. Still wearing pink hoping to see him again;
*(Inserting Remake/Intermission personal theory) Zack: His spirit is trying to reach her one last time;

Matsuyama is consistent. If you read the previous passage in Dismantled before the line "Aerith loves Cloud more than Zack", you would know why and to me, it makes sense since he has no idea about Zerith like Nojima. I mean, in Matsuyama version (written in Gongaga monologue), they never dated... just like when Sephiroth was supposed to be her first love, he was nice and bought her flowers several times then she fell in love. Just that! And of course, Matsuyama took Aerith's dialogue literally that she didn't know him dead. Without 1.5 years in a relationship that Zack kept visiting her periodically, sharing promises, selling flowers together, and her writing 89 letters for 4 years; I understand why Aerith loves Cloud more, really! I dont think it's childish. And that relationship backstory was still bought to Maiden novella. It's CC ending that people start to view the scene as Aerith being in denial, she senses it. And then Remake confirms it.

Zack in Maiden is also OOC because when they met, he said "Man, among the girls, you're the best, Aerith" WTF and this is completely wrong if we saw their relationship in CC. Again, no wonder Aerith loves Cloud more! And I can't blame Matsuyama for his portrayal because we also have OG truck scene when Zack said, "Crap, every girl lives with their mother." This line is completely removed in LO and CC as Zack is never shown ever saying it.

"That was puppy love." ~ Some people apparently...

The problem is Cleriths being stuck to both Matsuyama's versions and rejects the new canon material written by Nojima... heck, they even blame Tabata for Zerith when it's all Nojima's writings and Tabata even saying that he wasn't FF7 creators to decide things. And Cleriths completely erase the full passages that contradicted CC only to quote the last line "I undoubtedly love Cloud more than Zack, but Cloud is clueless."

 

[KindOfBlue]

I thought that was just Cloud struggling with guilt. His guilt from not being able to save Aerith from Sephiroth. I didn't think Cloud had any real feelings for her post OG.

You’re right but it’s far too easy to assume that he still has feelings for Aerith because the devs established that those feelings existed but never specified whether or not there’s a point where those feelings ended

Aerith says "she loves him / he is her lover" or something like that. Which makes me rethink once again if maybe the issue here is that SE doesn't give context to the localizers (looking at you "family of friends").

Well, I can’t speak for other languages but in English “she loves him” would have no indication of him returning feelings while “he is her lover” suggest a mutual relationship between sexual partners

I believe I remember this line from On the Way to a Smile novel, and agreed with the official English translation “for she had loved him” because the literal translation isn’t always correct within context. She was speaking of all the things he symbolized. She called him her “friend”, and only after she stated that did she change her mind—as an afterthought—to no, she liked him more than that, as a woman loves a man. That was the context I believe of what was said in the On the Way to a Smile novel, and this actually corroborates with what we know from the game. She dies before she could ever tell him how she feels, or even had time to process her feelings really. I haven’t read Maiden. Did it say that too? In any case it’s not the same as them describing Tifa being someone’s significant other in an interview.

Edit: Nvm it seems like Maiden doesn’t based on other’s posts.

Yeah I had Maiden confused, that’s where Aerith says she loves Cloud more than Zack.

So with what you’ve explained in mind, in the context of how Tifa is described in relation to Cloud, would it be accurate to say that the quotes describe Tifa as a lover or as a person whom Cloud loves?

 

[eleamaya]

in the context of how Tifa is described in relation to Cloud, would it be accurate to say that the quotes describe Tifa as a lover or as a person whom Cloud loves?

Koi hito [koibito] is literally a "person [hito] that is romantically loved [koi]". So, to suggest it's mutual as "a lover", we should know the context (since JP is very high context) or straightly say "futari/they are koibito" just like Zack & Aerith being described in Ultimania. At least, for Tifa's quote above, it means she's a beloved of someone [Cloud] if we're still not sure about their relationship status. But if we're sure just like seven quotes describing them "confirming their feelings match", then it means "a lover"

Maybe.... because the JP text didn't address the person who loves her as beloved or lover, the translator in Reunion Files just literally translates it as "sweetheart" as if it was a general meaning of "everyone loves her that she's a girlfriend material". If the translator carefully paid attention to the context like OTWTAS translator, it would be different.

 

[MiraTora]

Hello guys,I must thanks my friend to introduced me into this thread and I hope I can share my “honest” thought about LTD. Tbh, I played FF7 when I was very young and I never thought about this LTD. Until the remake came out, the whole fandom become madness whenever the topic is about Tifa vs Aerith, and I don’t like that. I really hope we can discuss in a neutral ways. I have been in this fandom for 2 years because of Remake, and honestly I’m so confusing because there are so many biased info everywhere, which makes me hardly to find a person who is neutral(unbiased) and already played the games. Seriously, it was a mistake to look up for Twitter and Reddit because of their illogical and crazy headcanon without discussing in a smart ways

 

[KindOfBlue]

Koi hito [koibito] is literally a "person [hito] that is romantically loved [koi]". So, to suggest it's mutual as "a lover", we should know the context (since JP is very high context) or straightly say "futari/they are koibito" just like Zack & Aerith being described in Ultimania. At least, for Tifa's quote above, it means she's a beloved of someone [Cloud] if we're still not sure about their relationship status. But if we're sure just like seven quotes describing them "confirming their feelings match", then it means "a lover"

Maybe.... because the JP text didn't address the person who loves her as beloved or lover, the translator in Reunion Files just literally translates it as "sweetheart" as if it was a general meaning of "everyone loves her that she's a girlfriend material". If the translator carefully paid attention to the context like OTWTAS translator, it would be different.

It’s interesting because in my experience, “lover” usually describes a romantic sexual relationship (as in, one with whom you make love with) because two people don’t necessarily have to be “lovers” in order to be “in love”, even though both terms use the word “love”. I’ve never heard “lovers” describe two people who like each other or even a boyfriend/girlfriend unless they’re having sex. I guess it’s a similar nuance to how I can “love” a family member but not be “in love” with them (no, incest is NOT wincest lol). And so seeing that Zack and Aerith’s relationship never got to that point, it at least makes sense to me to say “they loved each other” rather than “they are lovers”, much like how describing Cloud as somebody Aerith loved makes more sense then calling him her “lover”.

In a similar way, even with awkward grammar aside, I feel like Tifa is also more “a beloved” than “a lover” because we don’t know the exact nature of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship/marital status post-FF7 other than that they are in love with each other. Are they regularly having sex or was that just a one-time thing? Do either of them consider their relationship to be one of a boyfriend & girlfriend? I don’t expect an official answer to the first question but the second one would definitely clear any misconceptions (unless anti-shippers want to be willfully ignorant).

Hello guys,I must thanks my friend to introduced me into this thread and I hope I can share my “honest” thought about LTD. Tbh, I played FF7 when I was very young and I never thought about this LTD. Until the remake came out, the whole fandom become madness whenever the topic is about Tifa vs Aerith, and I don’t like that. I really hope we can discuss in a neutral ways. I have been in this fandom for 2 years because of Remake, and honestly I’m so confusing because there are so many biased info everywhere, which makes me hardly to find a person who is neutral(unbiased) and already played the games. Seriously, it was a mistake to look up for Twitter and Reddit because of their illogical and crazy headcanon without discussing in a smart ways

I’d say you’ve come to the right place. Some people accuse this site of having a Tifa bias but people here generally don’t deny Aerith’s role in the story and what that relationship means to Cloud even if the trajectory of the story has him end up with Tifa. I think most of us are at a point where we know the LTD is redundant and people like me just want a clear stopping point for it. My experience on the site over the last year and few months has been pretty well and though it might get heated, this site is big on avoiding bad faith arguments and misconstruing the story. Welcome aboard!

 

[Graymouse]

In a similar way, even with awkward grammar aside, I feel like Tifa is also more “a beloved” than “a lover” because we don’t know the exact nature of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship/marital status post-FF7 other than that they are in love with each other. Are they regularly having sex or was that just a one-time thing? Do either of them consider their relationship to be one of a boyfriend & girlfriend? I don’t expect an official answer to the first question but the second one would definitely clear any misconceptions (unless anti-shippers want to be willfully ignorant).

Why can't they be both? You can have someone who is beloved and have someone who is your lover at the same time. Cloud on several occasions have shown that Tifa is a very precious person to him. Even more so in the FF7R.

You mentioned that there isn't any indication that the two have had sex since the HW scene in the OG. There are a lot of indications of "implied" sex post OG. One such example, that I actually hate brining up because it always sparks a debate, is that they share a bed and live together. Notwithstanding, just because a couple doesn't have sex regularly with each other doesn't necessarily mean that they love each other less.

 

[Ryeleigh]

It’s interesting because in my experience, “lover” usually describes a romantic sexual relationship (as in, one with whom you make love with) because two people don’t necessarily have to be “lovers” in order to be “in love”, even though both terms use the word “love”. I’ve never heard “lovers” describe two people who like each other or even a boyfriend/girlfriend unless they’re having sex.

At least as late as the 18th-century, 'lover' was used to describe one-sided feelings. For example in The Story of the Beauty and the Beast:

But these lovers sought only to gain her heart, and the simplest gift from her hand was more precious to them than all the treasures that were prodigally heaped upon them by others.

Not all of those dudes were having sex with Beauty, and neither did she love any of them.

Archaically and etymologically, 'lover' just means "one who is enamored, person in love". So it doesn't necessarily imply reciprocity, or that the object of your enamoration is even a person. (For example "I'm a lover of books").

Of course, the understood meaning has changed in modern times. But anyway, even if Aerith had called Cloud her 'lover' in Lifestream White, it's still just what she thinks and from the overall context of the original game and all the subsequent material, you know they 1) never confirmed their feelings for another, 2) weren't having sex on the sly and 3) Cloud was clueless anyway. And the original word was 'koibito' which, as far as I know, means that Cloud was loved by Aerith, not that Cloud necessarily loved her.

I guess if someone is a shipper it's nice to have the word 'beloved' between their favourite pairing, regardless of the context, but it's really not good to get hung up on one single word. But on the other hand, shippers are gonna ship so, you know, whatever.

 

[odekopeko]

Are they regularly having sex or was that just a one-time thing? Do either of them consider their relationship to be one of a boyfriend & girlfriend?

I don't really want to know the first one, and I don't think I'm that curious lol.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Why can't they be both? You can have someone who is beloved and have someone who is your lover at the same time. Cloud on several occasions have shown that Tifa is a very precious person to him. Even more so in the FF7R.

I’m not talking about how they feel towards each other though, just the specific use of the word “koibito” and whether or not “beloved” or “lover” is a more accurate translation because while the two terms are related and often both applicable, I wouldn’t exactly consider them interchangeable

There are a lot of indications of "implied" sex post OG. One such example, that I actually hate brining up because it always sparks a debate, is that they share a bed and live together.

Are there a lot? I can’t think of any other implication that they sleep together post-OG besides the bed thing, and I don’t think there’d be much to debate about if it was more clear that they do sleep together but since it isn’t clear, here we are…them sharing a bed would be a pretty clear indication that they are at least boyfriend and girlfriend but it still wouldn’t do much to shut up the shippers who think Cloud still likes Aerith

Notwithstanding, just because a couple doesn't have sex regularly with each other doesn't necessarily mean that they love each other less.

I definitely didn’t mean to imply that lol I’m saying that the term “lovers” has a typically more sexual connotation than to say that two people are “in love”…that’s not to say that the two terms are mutually exclusive, like I said, two people don’t necessarily have to be “lovers” in order to be “in love”

So it doesn't necessarily imply reciprocity, or that the object of your enamoration is even a person. (For example "I'm a lover of books").

Of course, the understood meaning has changed in modern times. But anyway, even if Aerith had called Cloud her 'lover' in Lifestream White, it's still just what she thinks and from the overall context of the original game and all the subsequent material, you know they 1) never confirmed their feelings for another, 2) weren't having sex on the sly and 3) Cloud was clueless anyway.

I mean you said it best, meanings change with modern times…if you called two people lovers, most people would understand that to mean there’s some kind of relationship going on, and for all the reasons you mentioned, that’s exactly why I’d consider “beloved” or “she loved him” a more accurate translation of the word

I don't really want to know the first one, and I don't think I'm that curious lol.

There’s more than enough fanart to provide that wonderful imagery anyways lmao…honestly though, I don’t think there’d be much to argue about if only the writing was more clear that Cloud and Tifa share a bed (seriously, just mention “Cloud and Tifa’s bed” or have one them mention “our bed”, that’s ALL it would take dammit)

 

[Thenir]

@MiraTora Hi!!!

Matsuyama is consistent. If you read the previous passage in Dismantled before the line "Aerith loves Cloud more than Zack", you would know why and to me, it makes sense since he has no idea about Zerith like Nojima.

I don't object much his conclusions but rather the way he expressed them in the novel. Aerith meets Zack in the afterlife and she doesn't really confront him about their feelings, she doesn't acknowledge his merits fot having saved Cloud carrying him unconscious from Nibelheim to Midgar. It fitted the less realistic style of the OG, nonetheless I can't help but find that part of the novel really poorely written.

@KindOfBlue I think the "lover" word was used in the French version (amant), and I'm not totally sure if the German version used the word Geliebte. The Italian one says lei lo amava (she loved him, in that specific context meaning she still loves him). Anyway I guess it's just the way the localizers interpreted the meaning of koibito that can't be translated literally in western languages.
In my opinion it is correct to translate that koibito with a sense of mutual feelings between Cloud and Aerith, Aerith's resolution scene would lose its meaning otherwise. Anyway I wouldn't consider it in terms of sexual relationship, that's a nuance of meaning that belongs to lover, not necessarily to koibito.

From OTWTAS we know that he traded his motorbike for the lifelong possibility to eat and drink for free at 7th Heaven. For me it means that he had the intention to stay with her...forever I guess. I find it hard to reconcile this detail with the absence of a sort of romantic bond between the two.
That said I don't think that's so easy to define their relationship during the two years between the OG and AC. For one the world has been torn apart and a fatal illness is decimating the survivors of Meteor, they have to start again from scratch, they later have to take care of Marlene; Cloud lacks five years of his life and needs to catch up and become an adult; Tifa starts immediately to be heavily depressed and she's stricken by guilt; when she starts feeling better it's Cloud's turn to get depressed; they both regress to their past bad attitudes, Cloud isolates himself feeling like he's a failure, Tifa is afraid to confront him about their relationship; they're going to see Denzel die.
About Cloud I think not only he feels guilty for the deaths of Zack and Aerith, but he had romantic feelings for the girl his best friend loved, and he even forgot him and had the audacity to steal his identity, when he died to protect him.
These two have A LOT to deal with, a lot to overcome on a personal level and as a couple. It doesn't surprise me that there's no clear answer about the exact nature of their relationship in that specific time frame.
The novel reveals that Tifa herself is unsure about what they really are to each other, until she finally faces him and tells him that Aerith brought Denzel not to him but to them, and when he smiles she feels reassured. Which in a way should be enough of an answer since we know that she undoubtly loves him and wants them to be a real family. Which is later confirmed in TKAA and Reminiscence.
I have a feeling that their real chance to become a real family and to be in a good romantic relationship comes after the events of AC, after they get rid of a lot of personal issues.

 

[Eerie]

Hello guys,I must thanks my friend to introduced me into this thread and I hope I can share my “honest” thought about LTD. Tbh, I played FF7 when I was very young and I never thought about this LTD. Until the remake came out, the whole fandom become madness whenever the topic is about Tifa vs Aerith, and I don’t like that. I really hope we can discuss in a neutral ways. I have been in this fandom for 2 years because of Remake, and honestly I’m so confusing because there are so many biased info everywhere, which makes me hardly to find a person who is neutral(unbiased) and already played the games. Seriously, it was a mistake to look up for Twitter and Reddit because of their illogical and crazy headcanon without discussing in a smart ways

The rule of thumb is "if you think SE wants to portray their heros as arseholes, think again - if you think one of the 2 heroines has no importance, think again". Basically the story is very straightforward, but the LTD problem is that the goal keeps moving. If you want to read the most comprehensive post about the story, this is where it is. It's a cloti writing, but she's looking at the story from the outside, there's no name calling and she just looks at the story that is told in FFVII and its subsequent works, none of the outside materials like the Ultimanias and interviews. She is also a user here, you can find her posts in the cloti FC with the same username, her posts are really interesting because she looked at the filmming technics used to storytell the game and analysed them.

The thing with the LTD is that people look at it from way too close, instead of taking a step back. Look at what @KindOfBlue writes, he's looking at words translations and meanings, that's about when you are looking at it with a magnifying glass and you're wayyyyyyyy too close to understand the whole story. Shippers often look at the LTD as if it was the whole story, but it's only a tiny part of a larger story. We absolutely must take a backseat and understand that the games, movie and novellas have created a coherent world in which there is a canon pairing, unlike what a lot of people claim (in Twitter, in Reddit, elsewhere on the net...), and that this aside, nothing prevents people from shipping the fanon pair, which has cute moments too.

 

[null]

@MiraToraIn my opinion it is correct to translate that koibito with a sense of mutual feelings between Cloud and Aerith, Aerith's resolution scene would lose its meaning otherwise. Anyway I wouldn't consider it in terms of sexual relationship, that's a nuance of meaning that belongs to lover, not necerrarily to koibito.

This. Characters who are boyfriend/girlfriend but haven't had sex still say koibito to describe each other. Golden Time is a good example. (And they say koibito a LOT. Accursed subs, I can't unhear that word anymore!)

 

[MiraTora]

Thank you guys, I have already read insanehobbit LTD long time ago, this is why I know her in TLS(my friend sent me her post on Tumblr).

If we simply look at the game, we can make conclusion about Cloud and Tifa are together. However, the debate right now isn’t about Cloud ends up with who(because that’s obvious), it’s about who Cloud loves more. Of course, looking up for Reddit group, mostly people will say Cloud loves both or it was up to player’s interpretation, and minor of them will say if Aerith had lived, he will end up with her, which very isn’t convinced me because there’s no evidence to proof that(Besides bringing up “that” Cait Sith fortune) . Somehow this statement is widely spread around the fandom right now.

In my POV about Cloud’s relationship between two girls, I must say he does care and have affection for both of them, but of course that makes him have the complex feelings for them too (kinda reminds me for Katniss in the first two books of the Hunger Games about her complex feelings for both men but obviously the LTD ends at the third book). Somehow I never thought Cloud will be the type of person who will be like “I love X more or I love Y more”(even if Aerith had lived) especially in the game all of his focus is Sephiroth (Sephikura) and how his mind is messed up. And later of the game, we found out that in Cloud’s conscious is Tifa everywhere, which make the player be like “Holy shit, so Tifa is the biggest reason on Cloud’s whole journey just because he just want to impress her”. I must say this part is also the biggest part that let lots of people love Cloti, and I think this is also the devs want to make things clear that they are not randomly choose Tifa to end up with Cloud as “second choice”, if Tifa is a second choice then I don’t think they are necessarily to make the whole arc revolves around their relationship, especially if they think Clerith is the main couple of the game.

For Clerith, I never against the ship, even thought I’m not shipping them neither, and I really like the interaction between them. I view the ship as “potential”. There are some romance between them, however it stop because of her death. I guess what’s make Clerith popular is because their potential romance couldn’t happen afterwards, which same as many people assume Aerith is so popular and remembering is because of her death(I don’t think I like this opinion from them about Aerith character). One thing that I found interesting in Clerith story comparing to Cloti story is about Aerith attraction to Cloud because of Zack. In nearly half of the game, I can see their building romance/narratively focus is about her thought of Zack in Cloud until Gold Saucer which about her tried to moving forward.
I found the biggest issue on why many Clotis cannot accept Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith, I think it come from the role of two heroines, I never/barely see Clotis against Aerith’s important as heroine who saving the planet. However, comparing to Aerith, Tifa can’t be like Aerith in terms of external heroine, which is why Tifa is internal heroine who saving Cloud and be by his side(I think Nomura said this). If Aerith is taken as love interest too, then it is a loss for Tifa. Which is why I see many people fighting about who is the main heroine. So sad that this fandom isn’t ready for having two heroines at the same time.
Honestly I can’t say anything about the next part because the LTD still ongoing, but I hope that I can discuss here so I can understand more on each sides.

 

[Thenir]

Agree with your post.

Of course, looking up for Reddit group, mostly people will say Cloud loves both or it was up to player’s interpretation, and minor of them will say if Aerith had lived, he will end up with her,

Really? I'm an active redditor and I have to say that most of people on the FF7/FF7R subreddits are definitely CT/ZA supporters. Or better, they're people who know extensively the OG and the compilation and they got to the same logic conclusion. There's a very little group of extremists who won't accept a different opinion (*cough*thesamepersonwithmultipleaccounts*cough*) and they usually get downvoted, but there are lots of fans with whom you can have an interesting conversation or also agree to disagree but remain in good terms. That said in theory LTD threads are forbidden there so there are some just once in a while.

 

[Eerie]

I feel since you are new that I should warn you: I used to hate Aerith, people here can attest to that. But Remake made me love her, and after replaying the OG, I think she is OK there. I'm still not super fond of her characterisation there, because her character is the type of girls I don't really like to have around me (very flirty).

However, the debate right now isn’t about Cloud ends up with who(because that’s obvious), it’s about who Cloud loves more.

This is because of moving goalposts. And it's not the entire fandom, a whole subset of cleriths fans do say cloti has never been canon and it's clerith that is canon in Twitter, hence the ugly wars - I see those claims in the cloti tag when I frequent it, EVERY TIME, so it's understandable that people are pissed when they go to the tag to enjoy cute fanarts or whatever.

Of course, looking up for Reddit group, mostly people will say Cloud loves both or it was up to player’s interpretation, and minor of them will say if Aerith had lived, he will end up with her, which very isn’t convinced me because there’s no evidence to proof that(Besides bringing up “that” Cait Sith fortune)

That hasn't been my experience in that sub, maybe because I got unlucky, but I get downvoted every time I mention that Cloud ends up with Tifa, or his feelings towards her. I rarely post there too (in fact I rarely check it, even less than before).

I found the biggest issue on why many Clotis cannot accept Cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith, I think it come from the role of two heroines, I never/barely see Clotis against Aerith’s important as heroine who saving the planet. However, comparing to Aerith, Tifa can’t be like Aerith in terms of external heroine, which is why Tifa is internal heroine who saving Cloud and be by his side(I think Nomura said this). If Aerith is taken as love interest too, then it is a loss for Tifa. Which is why I see many people fighting about who is the main heroine. So sad that this fandom isn’t ready for having two heroines at the same time.

I personally don't think Cloud was in love with Aerith. I think he was attracted, had a crush, but it's nowhere near what he feels for Tifa. And the devs in Remake offered us what Cloud's feelings towards Aerith are: they aren't real. And this is Aerith warning herself, when she is the most in tune with the Lifestream than ever, who says this.

I often say it, but if you look at the timeline, it's literally impossible that his feelings for Aerith trump those he has for Tifa. It's harsh, but it's the truth. And I say this as someone who does believe in love at first sight, because I have experienced it first hand: the love you feel at the beginning is nothing compared to a love you've nurtured for years. It just doesn't hold a candle to it - it's just a huge crush, really. It is my belief that even if Aerith had/will survive(d), the outcome regarding the canon pair will still be the same; Cloud will end up with Tifa. What the timeline says;

- 12/09: Cloud meets up with Aerith
- Aerith dies somewhere like 2 weeks after that without ever meeting the real Cloud
- something like 2 to 3 weeks after this, Cloud confirms with Tifa that their feelings match by having sex with her

Compare that to years of little Cloud crushing hard on Tifa, a crush that cemented into love, a promise made to be her hero that coloured his whole character, him being still in love with her during CC, forgetting about his feelings during the beginning of FFVII but still being attracted to her at that time, getting back his feelings, having sex with Tifa a mere what, two to 3 weeks after Aerith dies, making yet another promise to get reunited in the Lifestream after their death to meet up their loved ones who have died, planning to spend his whole life with her, actually spending his life with her. If he's supposed to love Aerith that much, that sounds really bizarre and arseholish from him, and we know that Cloud isn't an arsehole.

To me there is no comparison possible, and the two big reasons why I can never ship clerith are that she never knew the real Cloud and it looks very shallow to me. I think yes, it's dreamy, that's the whole thing about it - but that's because it's supposed to be an illusion. And to me, Remake cemented the fact that Cloud loves Tifa in a much deeper way than what his relationship with Aerith is. As I often say here though, there is nothing wrong with shipping clerith; shipping is a matter of taste, clerith is cute, it makes sense that they appeal to people. And at the end of the day, I still think that in the next parts we'll get more clerith moments too that will make the fans happy. That Cloud and Aerith will still grow closer - but it doesn't prevent Cloud's feelings to be where Tifa is.

 

[MiraTora]

Really? I'm an active redditor and I have to say that most of people on the FF7/FF7R subreddits are definitely CT/ZA supporters. Or better, they're people who know extensively the OG and the compilation and they got to the same logic conclusion. There's a very little group of extremists who won't accept a different opinion (*cough*thesamepersonwithmultipleaccounts*cough*) and they usually get downvoted, but there are lots of fans with whom you can have an interesting conversation or also agree to disagree but remain in good terms. That said in theory LTD threads are forbidden there so there are some just once in a while.

I think you’re right, whenever the poll comes out asking who Cloud should be with, it always Tifa get the highest votes. However, the comment thread is a mess. I remember that time when I read one of the comment which is the same asking about LTD, there’s a person who admitted themselves as Cloti but saying if Aerith had lived, he will be with her because Tifa is shy, cannot express her feelings like Aerith, and based on Tifa personality, she will leave Aerith to Cloud, and I was like???? But I think people have their own opinion so we can agree to disagree. Other than that, the most common answer can be found in Reddit regarding LTD is “Cloud loves them both”, I think they just want to be neutral without aiming and threatening to each other
@Eerie I agree with you, there’s no doubt that next part will have more Clerith, just same as OG. I don’t think the devs change too much about the characters relationship in Remake, if they want to push Clerith, it’s all around OG and they won’t go further beside that. Of course, not just about Cloud bonding with Aerith but also same as other characters. The things I like about the Remake it’s how they written Cloud getting closer to everyone not just exclusive to Aerith if you played Midgar in OG, and Aerti(makes me loves their relationship even more after reading Totp)

 

[Eerie]

You are lacking some 20 years of debates. Imagine that up until... AC, maybe even a bit further than that, cloti was the underdog and clerith was thought as canon by the majority of fans. This is what happens when you have a bad translation of a game. Imagine that we all watched a movie about Cloud and Tifa having couple's problem because Cloud is depressed and dying and fears of failing his family before reuniting and wondered if they are supposed to be a couple! Though to be honest I especially hated Cloud in AC, the characterisation was horrendous, which is why I'm grateful for ACC which cleared out his motives - even if it's still a mess Cloud is way more likeable there.

I remember when I played the game on PC, the very first time, I didn't even question the canonicity of cloti. In fact, I didn't ship it until the Lifestream scene - until then I was like "nah Tifa, what are you doing, he's stuck on that other girl, drop him like a hot potato" - then Northern Crater happened where I went "Uh??" at him going "only your opinion counts Tifa" and then the Lifestream scene happened where I went "ohhhhhhh so he's loved her all that time ohhhhhhhhhhh I see" and because Cloud loved her so much, it made me like them, because he obviously liked her as much as she did like him. It was the first and only time so far that I liked a pair in gaming (I was more used to games like Diablo and Warcraft III and some others, so nothing with romance in them).

But while in my bubble of not thinking that much of FFVII, people were persuaded that he loved Aerith and wanted to search for her. It's only with the release of AC, me hearing about it and looking at forums that I learned that and entered the LTD - it made absolutely no sense because to me (and I often think that back then, to the devs too it was enough), the Lifestream scene only answers what are Cloud's feelings. You're supposed to get there that it's Tifa who is special in his heart. I think I had an old account here (but I forgot about the password, and had to change my email in between so it's lost forever lmao - I don't even remember my old account name tbh) but it's only here that I argued the LTD. I think the goal of providing neutral translations (thank you forever hito and the others) plus the knowledge of the general world that I lacked is in the end what made me stay (well, on and off; I spend years normally not talking about FFVII, despite my love for the game, 'cause I usually play MMOs). It's with Remake that I've made a return to the forums, and SE sure knows how to keep my interest high with the release of several Ultimanias and the novella.

During all these years, the LTD has morphed; from "clerith is canon, Cloud is looking for Aerith!" we now have "cloti is canon, but he loves Aerith more!" (why? Who knows... with all that I wrote it's quite clear that this isn't true). With various streaks of "he loves them both", "he never loved Tifa", etc. I have made a huge LTD rant in this very thread where I actually complain about the LTD in itself; the mischaracterisation HURTS the FFVII story (a story about LOSS!!!) AND the characters. When you have to depict the characters as arses for your pairing to work, maybe it's not happening.

 

[Phantasia]

Really? I'm an active redditor and I have to say that most of people on the FF7/FF7R subreddits are definitely CT/ZA supporters.

I agree with this 100%. I used reddit a lot and when remake came out there were a few CA shippers trying to push their agenda onto both FF7/FF7R subreddits. It never worked and what actually happened is that those users were basically pushed out of the subs with downvotes and discussion, to the point they don't hangout there anymore (the remaining few hold onto the "is up to the player" like there is no tomorrow). Though ship wars or shipping in general is not encourage there (I think they are actually banned), they sometimes happen on unrelated posts, and you can notice how Tifa leaning reddit is. A few CA posts do well but as a whole, reddit is not very forgiving to "misinformation or bad takes".

I sort by new because those subreddits are not very active at the moment, and I notice how any CA post gets downvoted to the point it doesn't show in most users feeds. Tifa's "shipping" content there actually gets uptoved, or at least it gets a pass (people don't downvote it to hell as they say). I think is kind of sad though, not gonna lie.

 

[frosty]

I think you’re right, whenever the poll comes out asking who Cloud should be with, it always Tifa get the highest votes.

I feel the good bulk of the quiet "Tifa camp" are the people who just generally follow the story and the plotline with little "shipping" bias. They're Aerith / Tifa agnostic, but they get the overall narrative. They play FF7/ FF7R and move on with life and move on to other games. They passively upvote and like Tifa related matters if they're big enough fans and they passively contribute to the millions of views of Cloud/Tifa content on youtube. They just don't care enough to debate who ends up with who, as long as the game is compelling and entertaining for that 80+ hours. I fall into this camp, and come back to this site when new info hits, and I when I need a shot of nostalgia for a game I played when I was young...with a kind of bemusement this LTD is still running.

Like @Phantasia said, at the start of FF7R's release, there was a tonne of people in the Tifa camp - posting and, upvoting all pictures of "best waifu".. As almost a year rolls by, the "proper" gamers have found other things to distract themselves with, which is why the shipping content starts sneaking in by the few and enthusiastic enough fans to come back after 1++ year to continuously "ship" as they've sustained themselves with fanfiction and fan art.

The twitter riff raff is generally a loud and vocal camp, which I honestly have no energy for, at my age and after 10+ years of following FF7 content since AC. I honestly don't care enough about arguing with teenagers and trust my own ability to understand a writer's intention.

You've come to a good place though. Conversation's pretty level headed here

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Am I allowed to like both ships equally?