Make DoC good

[Ryushikaze]

Your task- Improve DoC to the point where it is legitimately good.

But there is a catch, since this must be interesting. You MUST keep elements of DoC as we got it. The premise of the war between Deepground and the WRO, The basic play style, Vincent as the 'main' character, all these things must remain, but that does not prevent you from adding new elements or tweaking those elements as you see fit, like changing the nature of deepground, or adding more levels focused on other people.

You have to address his past, Lucrecia, his death, Chaos, etc. but feel free to rearrange and change these elements as you like as well.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

It's all a delusion in Vincent's dying mind. He was not mysteriously younger when Cloud first found him, he was a 60 year old man in a funny outfit. He died shortly thereafter of cancer and the entirety of the game is actually his dying dream of moving past Lucrecia and joining with the rest of the world again.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Except that change doesn't improve the content at all, it just excuses the awfulness as the delusions of a dying mind. It doesn't make the delusions better.

 

[Masamune]

I've already poasted my ideas enough times but hey:

- The Tsviets were designed as a safety measure to kill Sephiroth (like the monsters on the Gelnika but 'human'). However, the experiments weren't completed and they were buried during Meteorfall, which is why they're batshit insane.

- Deepground are a small guerilla army formed by the survivors trapped under Midgar (inc. ex-SOLDIERS) who were rescued by the Tsviets.

- Shalua was part of Hojo's team who created the Tsviets. When they begin invading Gaia, she decides it's her duty to help Vincent bring them down. Her resemblance to Lucrecia also brings her closer to Vinnie boy.

- Vincent's transformations are linked to the Jenova virus and not Chaos/whatever.

- The gameplay would be more akin to DMC, with fast, frenetic gun-fu and killer combos, so at least the player won't feel cheated when they watch the cut-scenes.

- Yuffie would be playable for stealth sections (NOT CAIT SITH!). Let's at least pretend she's a ninja.

 

[ForceStealer]

^Mostly good ideas, I dunno if Vincent should also be connected to Jenova, but I see where you're going with it.

I also liked what Ryu, Tenny and I talked about briefly on the ACC Commentary about making AVALANCHE feel more a part of certain things. Ideally, having playable sections as them, but barring that, just making mention. I believe the specific example Ryu proposed was after the boss fight with Rosso, have Cloud show up and tell Vincent that he'll handle her, that Vincent needs to get moving.
This would A, give people resolution to Cloud's fight with her alluded to in the cutscene, B, still make Vincent the "hero," and C, be more satisfying than her cackling into the moonlight.

Similar things could happen elsewhere. I understand that hoping for playable sections as a lot of characters could be unfeasible (though a more Devil May Cry system may have made that more likely), but a section at least as Barret would have been cool, and the gameplay wouldn't have to be TOO different, it would still be a shooter.

Also, any machinery that DG happens to use should be abandoned Shinra equipment, not proprietary stuff.

 

[Lord Noctis]

Pretty much agree with Force and Masamune,only Iwould leave Vincent's transformations as a Chaos thing. Wouldn't make senseto be Jenova's virus since he never ecieved Jenova's cells, and we're trying to eliminate plot holes and shit,not make new ones.

 

[Tifabelle]

Well...they found Jenova around the same time Sephiroth was a fetus? Which was when Vincent was shot by Hojo. Vincent had all sorts of experiments on him; we don't actually know what he was/was not subjected to. I'm not saying he definitely was injected with Jenova cells, but I suppose it's a possibility.

 

[ForceStealer]

He did dodge Geostigma though, as far as we know. But I suppose other experiments could have protected himself from that.
Also, Masamune did say the Jenova virus. As in, what Ifalna said she inflicted on the Cetra while pretending to be a friend. Do we know if the virus is Jenova cells specifically? I always assumed it was, but I suppose it could just be an unrelated ability of hers.

I'd just be hesitant to link absolutely everything to Jenova. They very nearly have, Vincent and Chaos are one of the few things that aren't.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Except that change doesn't improve the content at all, it just excuses the awfulness as the delusions of a dying mind. It doesn't make the delusions better.

i'm sorry, i don't think i can put shit into an improvement machine and come out with anything but shit that looks better.

 

[Scias]

Lots of good ideas! =D

I'll add:

- Less Lucrecia. SERIOUSLY. I can't stand her, she was so poorly written, and, what the hell, her role is terrible anyway. After this game she's my most hated FFVII character ever and I'm not even one of those who "hates" fictional characters.

- Less melodrama.

- Vincent needs more... Motivation, yes, that. His moment at the ending when he realizes "Hey, things aren't that bad, maybe I should stop angsting" should have been set mid-game. To be honest, Vincent is the type of characters that are cool as secondary but just don't work as main protagonists.

- The new chars were terrible... Gee, crazy super soldiers, where have we seen that before? Oh, and more love was needed on the original ones. The Midgar War was the PERFECT moment for a cool gameplay change to, say, Barret, Cloud, anybody. To be honest, the moment when Vincent lands on the ruins was a big, big letdown.

- Better gameplay, I played de U.S. version and I know it's not as bad as the japanese one but it's still pretty plain and void. Also we needed more chars. I liked the Caith Sith mission, but this ain't Metal Gear.

- Change Deepground.

- More replay value, a pair of optional bosses, or even levels.



Overall this game needs more fun and more fanservice. I mean, a game is supposed to be fun, but Dirge wasn't any fun AT ALL. The story drills your head with "OH LUCRECIA IM SO SORRY", "NO VINCENT IM EVEN MORE SORRY", "NO WOMAN, IM... IM A BAD PERSON U_U" and things like that. The gameplay is forgettable and the cutscenes just troll you with things you can't even remotely TRY in-game, the new chars are bullshit and the old ones are mere background.

TL;DR: The best solution is change EVERYTHING and turn it into a Barret centered game like Gears of War. Oh hell yea nigga.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

- Vincent needs more... Motivation, yes, that. His moment at the ending when he realizes "Hey, things aren't that bad, maybe I should stop angsting" should have been set mid-game. To be honest, Vincent is the type of characters that are cool as secondary but just don't work as main protagonists.

hilariously enough he actually stops most of his lu-related angsting in the original game after he kills hojo and realizes it was all his fault to begin with. Shit, he was generally a better character in the original game anyways, at least he got his shit together to kill Sephiroth. Why the shit's he sitting around moping anyways, did Cid kick him out of the house after they drank all the tea? My god.

 

[Scias]

hilariously enough he actually stops most of his lu-related angsting in the original game after he kills hojo and realizes it was all his fault to begin with. Shit, he was generally a better character in the original game anyways, at least he got his shit together to kill Sephiroth. Why the shit's he sitting around moping anyways, did Cid kick him out of the house after they drank all the tea? My god.

"Curiously", the same thing happens with Cloud And yes, Vincent is actually worse here. I remember the scene with the kid in Edge.

Our Hero, ladies and gentlemen!

 

[Lord Noctis]

"Curiously", the same thing happens with Cloud And yes, Vincent is actually worse here. I remember the scene with the kid in Edge.

Our Hero, ladies and gentlemen!

Well, in all fairness there was actually a reasons Cloud was having issues in AC/C (I assume thats what you're talking about) whereas Vincent had no such reason other than "BECAUSE ITS COOL! I think......."

 

[Scias]

Well, in all fairness there was actually a reasons Cloud was having issues in AC/C (I assume thats what you're talking about) whereas Vincent had no such reason other than "BECAUSE ITS COOL! I think......."

In AC/C, I can understand his angsty angst. Really, I can.

But why in Kingdom Hearts, or Dissidia, or any other game? That's the personality he presents everywhere he appears. As if the character development of FFVII (and even AC/C) NEVER happened.

 

[Lord Noctis]

In AC/C, I can understand his angsty angst. Really, I can.

But why in Kingdom Hearts, or Dissidia, or any other game? That's the personality he presents everywhere he appears. As if the character development of FFVII (and even AC/C) NEVER happened.

Well KH is AU and Non-canon to FFVII so that doesn't really count. Dissdia on the other hand, much to my horror, is considered canon. Worse is that it does this to a lot of the characters.

 

[Scias]

Well KH is AU and Non-canon to FFVII so that doesn't really count. Dissdia on the other hand, much to my horror, is considered canon. Worse is that it does this to a lot of the characters.

I know, but still, these days, being emo is pretty much integral part of Cloud... He needed more screen time on DoC to determine if he's really better or not.

 

[Lord Noctis]

I know, but still, these days, being emo is pretty much integral part of Cloud... He needed more screen time on DoC to determine if he's really better or not.

No, being angsty and anti-social is a part of Cloud's character these days. Emo doesn't enter into it.

 

[ForceStealer]

I don't think Cloud's all that angsty in Dissidia (the first one, he is moreso in 012). In fact, he seemed like the only hero that was paying attention. He was the only one not willing to go solely on the word of some blonde chick with Ash Ketchum's voice that ripped him from his own world and told him to fight. (Oh shit, is Dissidia actually a Pokemon game?!)

That said, we should be careful that this doesn't turn into yet another Cloud's Character discussion. I was pleased with Cloud's presentation in DC, so that's one thing I wouldn't change. Just give him a bit more to do and keep his persona consistent to what we saw.

I think what I have most trouble reconciling is the size of Deepground. How do you think we should keep them as the villains, be of reasonable size, and still have enough cannon fodder for Vincent to gun down in the missions? Just use monsters?

 

[ShiningSugar14]

Throwing out my biases against this topic (I love Dirge as it is), lets see...

* Improve the controls. They were clunky and sort of non-immersive.
* Flesh out the Tsviets a bit more. I feel like the main reason they get a lot of hate is because Shelke is the only one who gets the vaguest amount of development. Speaking of which...
* Release the DeepGround backstory outside of Japan. It wouldn't even have to be a game. Make it a novel. A comic. A press-release. Just get the information out.
* Make Lucrecia slightly more interpersonally-intelligent than a boiled turnip. Seriously, if the woman has a PhD, you'd think she'd understand how human relationships work.
* Get a more interesting protagonist or at least make him a better one. I found Vincent really one-dimensional throughout the whole thing, mostly because he didn't say a damn word about himself to anyone and didn't really change through the story. Shelke, the emotionally-dead girl, got about half as much screentime and twice as much character development.

 

[Scias]

I don't think Cloud's all that angsty in Dissidia (the first one, he is moreso in 012). In fact, he seemed like the only hero that was paying attention. He was the only one not willing to go solely on the word of some blonde chick with Ash Ketchum's voice that ripped him from his own world and told him to fight.

That said, we should be careful that this doesn't turn into yet another Cloud's Character discussion. I was pleased with Cloud's presentation in DC, so that's one thing I wouldn't change. Just give him a bit more to do and keep his persona consistent to what we saw.

I think what I have most trouble reconciling is the size of Deepground. How do you think we should keep them as the villains, be of reasonable size, and still have enough cannon fodder for Vincent to gun down in the missions? Just use monsters?

Yes, that's actually the most tricky part: how do we change Deepground for better.

The concept itself is flawed, I mean, the most basic concept is pretty "what"... An army of super soldiers sealed beneath Midgar are searching for that dude with the red cape. Right. It's... Hard.

Buuuuuut I think Masamune's proposal of the Tsviets and DG is pretty good. Add that some kind of giant weapon and we have a credible global threat.

 

[ForceStealer]

I said in the other thread that the concept of DG is a good one - but we appear to differ on what we think the concept actually is. I thought of the concept as a hospital used to treat wounded SOLDIERs and the that Shinra, being as they are, couldn't resist such a perfect opportunity for more R&D. The army being beneath Midgar is the part where it falls apart, but I guess I never considered that the concept.

Anyway, that's all fine, I like Masamune's idea, but part of the reason that I assume DG was made so huge would be justification for how many you'll encounter over the course of the game. So what would we throw at him in their stead? The monsters you encounter in the game are good, and a few more would be fine, but too many might come off as just as contrived.

 

[Tifabelle]

* Make Lucrecia slightly more interpersonally-intelligent than a boiled turnip. Seriously, if the woman has a PhD, you'd think she'd understand how human relationships work.

Well, having a PhD doesn't necessarily make you an expert at relationships

But I do agree that Lucrecia does need to act more like the intelligent scientist that she is, and less like an airhead.

And Lucrecia gets a lot of bad press, but instead of having "less Lucrecia" as Vega suggested, how about just making her a better character. Eliminate those annoying traits, and have her say "I'm sorry" a bit less. Make her reason for leaving Vincent and running into Hojo's arms a little more believable.

 

[ForceStealer]

They can tone down the "I'm sorry"s and all. But she had damn well better be sorry, she kinda &$^#ed over the entire world with her little experiment.

But on Lucrecia, instead of making her a flake fairly early on, focus her being an emotional wreck on the important bit. You know, the part where she tried to kill herself? I thought her [English] voice actress' best line in the entire game was when she cried "Let me see him! Just once!" And then they kinda hint about the part where she tries to commit suicide, but they still kinda gloss over it which really surprised me.
I know Sephiroth wasn't the focus on the game but, let's face it, THIS was the most important part of the woman's life, not Vincent. Her going forward with this human experiment, developing natural attachment to her child and Hojo never letting her see him, her despair driving her to suicide, but Jenova's resilience makes her too durable to die. This is the part they gloss over?

And in fairness, they DO capture some of this in that scene. It's very tense, unfocused and sporadic. The problem is she kinda acted like that the whole game so it didn't seem all that much worse than anything else.

 

[Scias]

I said in the other thread that the concept of DG is a good one - but we appear to differ on what we think the concept actually is. I thought of the concept as a hospital used to treat wounded SOLDIERs and the that Shinra, being as they are, couldn't resist such a perfect opportunity for more R&D. The army being beneath Midgar is the part where it falls apart, but I guess I never considered that the concept.

Anyway, that's all fine, I like Masamune's idea, but part of the reason that I assume DG was made so huge would be justification for how many you'll encounter over the course of the game. So what would we throw at him in their stead? The monsters you encounter in the game are good, and a few more would be fine, but too many might come off as just as contrived.

Even as a hospital it's kinda weird, I mean, why on earth would you make a Hospital SO deep on the ground? By the time the elevator reaches destination more than one injuried Soldier would be dead. The army thing is even worse...

Oh, and that's a good point: the random mooks... You could always zombify people and use monsters but dunno, that's a really really good point.

Well, having a PhD doesn't necessarily make you an expert at relationships

But I do agree that Lucrecia does need to act more like the intelligent scientist that she is, and less like an airhead.

And Lucrecia gets a lot of bad press, but instead of having "less Lucrecia" as Vega suggested, how about just making her a better character. Eliminate those annoying traits, and have her say "I'm sorry" a bit less. Make her reason for leaving Vincent and running into Hojo's arms a little more believable.

The thing is that a good 60% of what she does in the game is say that she's sorry and other things like that I know she's critical to the plot and all that. Also, I don't know, but the whole "Shelke-Lucrecia-Vincent" thing was a little bit creepy and unnecesary, at least for me. I mean, I had kinda clear that the woman had feelings for Vincent, I didn't need to see that Shelke involved.

...Now that I'm talking about Shelke I remember, I never liked that SND thing.

They can tone down the "I'm sorry"s and all. But she had damn well better be sorry, she kinda &$^#ed over the entire world with her little experiment.

But on Lucrecia, instead of making her a flake fairly early on, focus her being an emotional wreck on the important bit. You know, the part where she tried to kill herself? I thought her [English] voice actress' best line in the entire game was when she cried "Let me see him! Just once!" And then they kinda hint about the part where she tries to commit suicide, but they still kinda gloss over it which really surprised me.
I know Sephiroth wasn't the focus on the game but, let's face it, THIS was the most important part of the woman's life, not Vincent. Her going forward with this human experiment, developing natural attachment to her child and Hojo never letting her see him, her despair driving her to suicide, but Jenova's resilience makes her too durable to die. This is the part they gloss over?

And in fairness, they DO capture some of this in that scene. It's very tense, unfocused and sporadic. The problem is she kinda acted like that the whole game so it didn't seem all that much worse than anything else.

Actually, I LIKED that scene. It was really good and you could feel the desperation of a mother. Other scene I liked was when Hojo shoot Vincent. DAT LAUGH.

The overall story of Lucrecia is good, don't misinterpret me, it IS good, but the way it was handed here was terrible.

 

[Max Payne]

Well, having a PhD doesn't necessarily make you an expert at relationships

But it does mean you're not completely bumfuck stupid when it comes to interpersonal relationships.