Make DoC good

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
I said in the other thread that the concept of DG is a good one - but we appear to differ on what we think the concept actually is. I thought of the concept as a hospital used to treat wounded SOLDIERs and the that Shinra, being as they are, couldn't resist such a perfect opportunity for more R&D. The army being beneath Midgar is the part where it falls apart, but I guess I never considered that the concept.

Anyway, that's all fine, I like Masamune's idea, but part of the reason that I assume DG was made so huge would be justification for how many you'll encounter over the course of the game. So what would we throw at him in their stead? The monsters you encounter in the game are good, and a few more would be fine, but too many might come off as just as contrived.

Military Robots. ShinRa has a butt ton. All you need is a throwaway line early on about them going missing and no one knowing why.

I'll get to my more detailed thoughts in a bit, but my reimagined version of DoC starts with the party an investigation into the Military hospital below Midgar very shortly post FF7, only to find the place completely and utterly empty. No people, almost no equipment, records almost totally useless. Dangerous levels of Mako in the area lead them to conclude that everyone down there died in the conflagration, which is why no one gives the place a second thought for two whole years. Of course, DG didn't die, the went to ground. All over the planet.
 

Masamune

Fiat Lux
AKA
Masa
Pretty much agree with Force and Masamune,only Iwould leave Vincent's transformations as a Chaos thing. Wouldn't make senseto be Jenova's virus since he never ecieved Jenova's cells, and we're trying to eliminate plot holes and shit,not make new ones.

Viruses don't have cells.
 

Masamune

Fiat Lux
AKA
Masa
I just think saying Vinnie had the Jenova virus is a far better in-universe explanation than what we got. And it's more or less what I assumed when I first watched his flashback anyway.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Yeah, like I said I saw where you were going (...or coming from?) with the idea. And I suppose chalking it up to Jenova is better than the non-reason we got. Though it still wouldn't explain his agelessness. We could use more details on how the Jenova virus even works, but I dunno if DC is the place for that tidbit anyway.


Also, sounds like a good start, Ryu, I look forward to the rest of it :P
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
best explanation to vincent's powers is clearly that his mitochondria are evolving :awesome:
 

Masamune

Fiat Lux
AKA
Masa
Yeah, like I said I saw where you were going (...or coming from?) with the idea. And I suppose chalking it up to Jenova is better than the non-reason we got. Though it still wouldn't explain his agelessness. We could use more details on how the Jenova virus even works, but I dunno if DC is the place for that tidbit anyway.

He's a vampire? :monster:
 

Tifabelle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tifabelle, Nathan Drake, Locke Cole, Kain Highwind, Yamcha, Arya Stark
They can tone down the "I'm sorry"s and all. But she had damn well better be sorry, she kinda &$^#ed over the entire world with her little experiment.

Well, yes. But her "I'm sorry" was for Vincent anyway, and had nothing to do with how it affected the rest of the world. I took it as a more personal apology. But ofc she should be sorry, it's just as a player by the fifth time she said it, I was like "I FREAKING GET IT ALREADY. YOU'RE SORRY. ANYTHING ELSE TO SAY?"

I know Sephiroth wasn't the focus on the game but, let's face it, THIS was the most important part of the woman's life, not Vincent. Her going forward with this human experiment, developing natural attachment to her child and Hojo never letting her see him, her despair driving her to suicide, but Jenova's resilience makes her too durable to die. This is the part they gloss over?

I agree with you here. Although one could argue that she isn't the focus of the game, but Vincent is. So it's all seen through his eyes? In any event, despite what people may say, Sephiroth is a link between Vincent & Lucrecia and particularly for Lucrecia realizing her error far too late.

And I can't really remember too well, but this was supposed to be the big emotional thing for Lucrecia, and meanwhile Vincent was locked away. Did he have a reaction to finding out her fate? Or was it only in FFVII when the party finds her that he learns that she was encased in mako? I can't remember.

The way the flashbacks are set up, it can be difficult to follow exactly wtf happened.


What bothers me is the general public is so quick to say Lucrecia is a bitch and whatnot, and I'm not entirely disagreeing, but there's more to it than that. I can almost see her motivations (well, not quite using her baby as an experiment), but it's barely explored. So it leaves the player thinking wtf is wrong with this lady? In fact, the whole "using her baby as an experiment" wasn't explained at all. Just that it didn't concern Vincent and she could do whatever she wants. Excuse me, but that's not good enough for me. I can't understand what could possibly possess a woman to do that. Just because she's a scientist? Is it because she hates that it's Hojo's child? Is she doing it as punishment to herself for her actions? That's something that would need deeper exploration.

I'm Batman said:
But it does mean you're not completely bumfuck stupid when it comes to interpersonal relationships.

Tifabelle said:
But I do agree that Lucrecia does need to act more like the intelligent scientist that she is, and less like an airhead.

:monster:


As for DG, (again idr) there was no explanation for how the whole Meteor event affected them? I guess they were safe way underground? Also, how far underground were they? Deeper than the slums?
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Yes, the slums aren't underground, they're on the ground. So DG would be beneath that. And to respond to what you said Vega, I didn't take it to mean a hospital that specializes in emergency services because, yeah, too hard to get get to. But a place that they would be transferred to for long-term "recovery."

Excuse me, but that's not good enough for me. I can't understand what could possibly possess a woman to do that. Just because she's a scientist? Is it because she hates that it's Hojo's child? Is she doing it as punishment to herself for her actions? That's something that would need deeper exploration.

I think it was because she was a scientist, and it was as simple as that. And I think the experiment was the reason she and Hojo conceived Sephiroth, so its not spite. She thought she could turn her child into the revival of the Ancients, its a classic example of the scientist so enthralled with his or her work that they don't consider the possibility of it going wrong (or, in this case, your babydaddy being a psychopath).
When Vincent asks her "Are you sure," she answers "Am I sure?! If this only concerns me then yes, I am sure." I think she thought she was doing the world, her child, Hojo, everyone a service.
 

Tifabelle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tifabelle, Nathan Drake, Locke Cole, Kain Highwind, Yamcha, Arya Stark
I think it was because she was a scientist, and it was as simple as that. And I think the experiment was the reason she and Hojo conceived Sephiroth, so its not spite.

Oh I thought the baby came first. Then they decided to use it in an experiment.


She thought she could turn her child into the revival of the Ancients, its a classic example of the scientist so enthralled with his or her work that they don't consider the possibility of it going wrong (or, in this case, your babydaddy being a psychopath).

I...guess. That certainly makes sense, but again...that's just a plausible explanation and one that I suppose I can accept. But I don't know that it is ever explained that way.

When Vincent asks her "Are you sure," she answers "Am I sure?! If this only concerns me then yes, I am sure." I think she thought she was doing the world, her child, Hojo, everyone a service.

Admittedly, I don't really get what she means by that line. Does she just mean that it's not Vincent's concern? Because if she thinks she's doing a service to the world, then it's not something that "only concerns [her]."

idk. I guess I never really thought that hard about this game, lol.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
What? No she says "If this only concerns me," as in Vincent's question implies it only concerns her but she thinks in concerns more people than that.
 

Tifabelle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tifabelle, Nathan Drake, Locke Cole, Kain Highwind, Yamcha, Arya Stark
What? No she says "If this only concerns me," as in Vincent's question implies it only concerns her but she thinks in concerns more people than that.

OMG I STILL DON'T GET IT. I mean, I understand what you're saying...kind of.

So if it only concerns her, then yes she is sure. But if it concerns more people, then....she's still sure? or wat.

omg why am I so dumb
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Geez Tifabelle, it made sense before you started asking.:monster:

She saying it's bigger than her. The experiment is about more than just her so what she wants is irrelevant. But if he insists on making it about just her, then yes, she is sure.
 

Tifabelle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tifabelle, Nathan Drake, Locke Cole, Kain Highwind, Yamcha, Arya Stark
Or maybe you're just bad at explaining stuff :monster:

Although that makes sense now. The vision she had of Sephiroth in Nibelheim...was she still pregnant at the time, or was that after he was born?

Oh...not sure if my other question got lost in the mess:

And I can't really remember too well, but this was supposed to be the big emotional thing for Lucrecia, and meanwhile Vincent was locked away. Did he have a reaction to finding out her fate? Or was it only in FFVII when the party finds her that he learns that she was encased in mako? I can't remember.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Tifabelle said:
Or maybe you're just bad at explaining stuff

That's cause it already said what it said...I didn't know how else to say it.

Although that makes sense now. The vision she had of Sephiroth in Nibelheim...was she still pregnant at the time, or was that after he was born?

She was pregnant. That scene is actually from FF7's flashback (although with the vision added).

And I can't really remember too well, but this was supposed to be the big emotional thing for Lucrecia, and meanwhile Vincent was locked away. Did he have a reaction to finding out her fate? Or was it only in FFVII when the party finds her that he learns that she was encased in mako? I can't remember.

I don't think he knew what happened to her. He seems surprised to find her in FF7 and considering she explains everything to him (that she never got to hold Sephiroth, that she tried to kill herself, etc.) I would assume he didn't know. Or at least she thought he didn't.

As for the crystal thing, that's a bit of a retcon as she seemed clearly capable of moving in FF7. But honestly I can live with that one because what else would she be doing that she couldn't go find Sephiroth and Vincent couldn't find her? It makes a bit more sense than in FF7 in this case. And as someone who apparently studied the Lifestream, I guess it works. After all, that's how her son spent 5 years.
 

Tifabelle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Tifabelle, Nathan Drake, Locke Cole, Kain Highwind, Yamcha, Arya Stark
She was pregnant. That scene is actually from FF7's flashback (although with the vision added).

Right. So even after the vision, she still hands her son over for the experiment. I mean...was it too late at that point? She didn't seem to think so a little while after that when she tried to see him.

I don't think he knew what happened to her. He seems surprised to find her in FF7 and considering she explains everything to him (that she never got to hold Sephiroth, that she tried to kill herself, etc.) I would assume he didn't know. Or at least she thought he didn't.

As for the crystal thing, that's a bit of a retcon as she seemed clearly capable of moving in FF7. But honestly I can live with that one because what else would she be doing that she couldn't go find Sephiroth and Vincent couldn't find her? It makes a bit more sense than in FF7 in this case. And as someone who apparently studied the Lifestream, I guess it works. After all, that's how her son spent 5 years.

Augh. ok. I don't remember how this scene went down. I need to go watch it on YT or something. I thought in FFVII she was in crystal as well? If not, it doesn't really bother me that they did that. Otherwise...what? She's just hanging out in this cave for twenty-five years? AND SHE STILL LOOKS GREAT, lol.
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
He's a vampire? :monster:

Here's how I would make DoC better: make Vincent sparkle. :wacky:

But in all seriousness, the main thing I would do, and I have said this a million times, is make Deepground freaking smaller!!!! The idea of them being an army a few thousand strong capable of taking over entire towns and stealing thousands of people from large cities without being noticed is just...no.

No no no no no.

And I like the idea of their weapons and equipment being leftovers from Shinra. That could maybe work.
 

Obsidian Fire

Ahk Morn!
AKA
The Engineer
An army of super soldiers sealed beneath Midgar are searching for that dude with the red cape.
To be fair, it's not the Tsviets who are after Vincent. Hojo is, he's just using DeepGround to take control of Omega. Originally, the Tsviets just wanted to get out of DeepGround.
Right. So even after the vision, she still hands her son over for the experiment. I mean...was it too late at that point? She didn't seem to think so a little while after that when she tried to see him.
Lucrecia specifically says that Sephiroth was taken from her at birth. In fact, she says she never even got to hold him. The implication is that she knew by the time Sephiroth was born that he wasn't just a science experiment but she couldn't stop Hojo from taking Sephiroth away from her.

I'll get out some ideas when I have more time at the computer
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Correct on both counts, Obsidian :monster:

@Tifabelle:


They actually took a lot of scenes and lines DIRECTLY from this flashback. ("If she is happy, then I don't mind," "She and I both scientists!" Lucrecia passing out, Vincent's first transformation, "All I did was watch,") Which is more than we can say for the Nibelheim Incident.
What they missed was giving Hojo a younger character model, thus making Lucrecia look slightly more insane, and the mysterious exclusion of Professor Gast, a trend which Crisis Core continued. So change both of those things, but otherwise, kudos for actually sticking to the flashback, even if the other stuff they added was stupid. (And yes, I know its sad we have to give kudos for sticking to what was originally there)

Oh, and put Vincent's Theme in the game, its about him! Hamauzu made a great soundtrack, but as corroborated by FF13, he must not like series-wide themes.
 
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Splintered

unsavory tart
ment), but it's barely explored. So it leaves the player thinking wtf is wrong with this lady? In fact, the whole "using her baby as an experiment" wasn't explained at all. Just that it didn't concern Vincent and she could do whatever she wants. Excuse me, but that's not good enough for me. I can't understand what could possibly possess a woman to do that. Just because she's a scientist?
Agree with Force, it was because of science.

Final Fantasy loves the theme of science gone out of control. In fact, all of media loves writing about how the drive for science, without ethics, is catastrophic. Look at Hojo, he was going to give Sephiroth all the power he wants to see what happens. True, he was crazy, but all of Shinra seemed to want to unconcerned with the human element. Working with Hojo makes me think that she was completely amoral when it came all of this.

Of course, this eventually changed and she got wrapped up in the whole angst thing.

I think DoC kind of ruined Lucrecia's story for me. I honestly thought she was a tragic figure, by her own hands of course, that just made it sadder. In the OG she only wanted Sephiroth or she wanted to die. The way she asks for hope, and then just disappears after Vincent tells her Sephiroth is dead made me ;_;.

I understand it was all Vincent's story, but the whole focus on getting his forgiveness came out of left field. I'm not particularly annoyed because I never cared too much for Lucrecia, but it still felt like they ripped her from the whole "I am Sephiroth's mother" thing to "I fucked over Vincent" thing without saying anything about the former.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Right, so I've got some free time at work now, so let me go into a bit more detail about revamping DOC.

As I mention, the Deepground ShinRa intensive care facility would be found abandoned and apparently ransacked, but also so flooded with Mako radiation it's assumed no one survived.

Over the next three years, accidents, thefts, and disappearances happen worldwide, slacking off once Geostigma vanishes, but picking up again shortly before the game begins.
At this point, the WRO decides that it's time to do something about Midgar, cleaning up the area of trash, repurposing equipment, that sort of thing.

Then come the accidents. Our opening shots would be WRO survey footage showing them finding Rosso in the ShinRa building. They wonder what she's doing before she cuts them all down, after which she finds the camera and speaks to it that DeepGround is rising, and that Gaians have two options, to run, or to fight, and she hopes they'll fight, since she's had to refrain from killing for two years and she's got to catch up.

After that, we cut to Kalm. It would play out much the same, only with a lot more in the way of DeepGround releasing monsters and robots of all sorts rather than strict human wave tactics. They'd be numerous, but not Zerg Rush Kekeke numbers.

Basically, the idea is such- DeepGround, and Hojo's plan, have been fomenting for over three years now- yes, this was a Xanatos Gambit of Hojo's all along, he's responsible for most of DeepGround's supers, and he's pulling the strings. Some know. Some don't.
DeepGround is still a formidable force, but the vast bulk of its army are now beasts and robots, not humans.

Its major players are still the major players, but they'd all be tweaked in at least some way, either experimented on to grant them extra powers, or strange entities with special powers ShinRa wanted to be able to use and potentially recreate- Standard SOLDIERs being the most successful version of this effort. Azul's powers, for example, would be related to the same thing that allows Vincent to Transform into the Galian Beast, Freddy, Frank's Monster, and Chaos. Weiss and Nero would have been twins heavily exposed to pure and stagnant Mako extremely early in development, etc.

And that's just making DeepGround better, more interesting villains. I also think more levels as people other than Vinnie and Cait Sith are required, especially levels where Cloud fights Rosso, Yuffie fights Nero, etc. Oh, and the dead Tsviets from online? They're back in. More folks for the party to take down.

Speaking of Yuffie? Klutz Ninja extreme? If that's still around, it's made explicit that it's an act. And we definitely do more with her, even if it's small scenes of her aiding Vinnie in ways he's not aware of, but also seemingly doing so and escaping from DG generals almost by accident.
Until the Nero Fight, when the cloak and the kid gloves come off.
 

Gym Leader Devil

True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
AKA
So many names
I approve of this. Especially the make-over of Yuffie's characterization you propose. All good ideas, but most especially that one.
 

Max Payne

Banned
AKA
Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
Hojo having a huge, active role in the story is still failure, as is the entire idea of Deepground.

There's no fixing something that's broken at the base level.
 
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