Lord Noctis
Harbinger of Darkness
- AKA
- Caius Ballad
Deepground and the tsviets aren't really a bad concept, they were just executed horribly. Hojo however does have no place being in DOC.
Make DoC good
- Thread starter Ryushikaze
- Start date
Max Payne
Banned
- AKA
- Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
Yes they are.
Deepground is a fucking hidden army of soldiers underneath midgar, it's a terrible idea. If it was just a hospital for Soldier like Force said, then yeah, but it's not.
Gym Leader Devil
True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
- AKA
- So many names
Yo Dacon, you did read the thread title right? Make DoC Good? I think "Make it not a colossal army of soldiers underneath Midgar" was part of the pitch we're discussing atm. 
ForceStealer
Double Growth
I likey, Ryu. Sounds pretty good. Especially the Yuffie stuff, I was REALLY expecting something like that to happen when I played the game. And it kept being staved off, and then Vincent and Yuffie are standing outside of Weiss' chamber I thought I was finally gonna get it. I thought maybe she'd at least be an AI-controlled ally in the fight like she was in Kingdom Hearts II (along with Cloud, Squall, and Tifa). But...nothing.
As for Hojo, I know why they did it, because he's the closest thing to a clear nemesis that Vincent has. Hojo screwed up his life royally, although Vincent is hardly alone in this regard. You could make a phonebook out of people Hojo's fucked.
And I'm cool with making Deepground his doing and the events unfolding are because of him, because of something he set in motion before dying. But as for his actual presence, nah.
As for Hojo, I know why they did it, because he's the closest thing to a clear nemesis that Vincent has. Hojo screwed up his life royally, although Vincent is hardly alone in this regard. You could make a phonebook out of people Hojo's fucked.
And I'm cool with making Deepground his doing and the events unfolding are because of him, because of something he set in motion before dying. But as for his actual presence, nah.
Max Payne
Banned
- AKA
- Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
Even as such it's still a stupid idea, for obvious reasons. But eh, I don't think there is ANY fixing DoC.
Gym Leader Devil
True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
- AKA
- So many names
Deepground being Hojo's fault makes perfect sense. Damn near Everything is Hojo's fault. Him turning up as a digital specter thingamajig is quite retarded though. Why can we not build up some enmity between the established characters and a new villain instead of whoring out villains from the OG again? Wait, its Squeenix, so that kinda answers itself.
On the other hand, I almost agree with ya Bats, even with the ideas stated above which I fully agree with and wish to see implemented... I just don't think Vincent is cut out to carry a narrative on his own. He's awesome, don't get me wrong. Loved Vincent in the OG. But he's very much a supporting character in my eyes, not a full on solo title protagonist. I honestly think Yuffie could carry her own game better. Still, even that could be worse. It could have been all Cait Sith all the time.
On the other hand, I almost agree with ya Bats, even with the ideas stated above which I fully agree with and wish to see implemented... I just don't think Vincent is cut out to carry a narrative on his own. He's awesome, don't get me wrong. Loved Vincent in the OG. But he's very much a supporting character in my eyes, not a full on solo title protagonist. I honestly think Yuffie could carry her own game better. Still, even that could be worse. It could have been all Cait Sith all the time.
Max Payne
Banned
- AKA
- Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
Hojo pulling off such a grand scheme with no one the wiser, makes no sense man.
Gym Leader Devil
True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
- AKA
- So many names
I agree with the "no one the wiser" part. I personally think his involvement should be limited to a name drop. As in, its not some grand scheme of Hojo's that he set in motion three years ago, but rather just acknowledging that his experiments made the Tsviets what they are (thus, Hojo's fault) both in terms of their powers and their insanity and blood-lust. Then, we let the new villains stand on their own merits from there on. I'd really like to see that as opposed to shoehorning Hojo into the main villain role through convoluted plot fuckery.
Hey, while I'm thinking on this, Heidegger and Scarlet both knew about/were involved with Deepground too weren't they? Anyone got a fan-wank for why they used that godawful Proud Clod thing when they took on Cloud and his bunch instead of calling up Deepground for support? And yes, I know the real answer is because DG didn't exist back then, I want fan-wank!
Hey, while I'm thinking on this, Heidegger and Scarlet both knew about/were involved with Deepground too weren't they? Anyone got a fan-wank for why they used that godawful Proud Clod thing when they took on Cloud and his bunch instead of calling up Deepground for support? And yes, I know the real answer is because DG didn't exist back then, I want fan-wank!
Lord Noctis
Harbinger of Darkness
- AKA
- Caius Ballad
Because Scarlett and Heidegger are two of the most incompetent inidividuals to have ever existed, and therefore any idea or concept that could actually succeeed in any capacity avoid their minds like the plague.
Or it could be they thought DG would be to dangerous/hard to control out in the field and decided against risking it, and used Proud Clod instead. That was probably Scarlet's idea since she seems to have a fetish for big things that blow shit up.
Or it could be they thought DG would be to dangerous/hard to control out in the field and decided against risking it, and used Proud Clod instead. That was probably Scarlet's idea since she seems to have a fetish for big things that blow shit up.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
Gym Leader Devil
True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
- AKA
- So many names
To be fair, the Sister Ray, while impractical in almost every way conceivable, did technically work (killed Diamond WEAPON, blew Sephy's barrier away). But yeah, I can get behind both those reasons. Ok, enough off topic from me.
So yeah, an idea of my own for making DoC good, instead of just agreeing with Ryu. Hmmm... yeah aside from changing the cameras around in Shelke's scenes so they do not always focus right on her ass, I got nothin'.
So yeah, an idea of my own for making DoC good, instead of just agreeing with Ryu. Hmmm... yeah aside from changing the cameras around in Shelke's scenes so they do not always focus right on her ass, I got nothin'.
Max Payne
Banned
- AKA
- Leon S. Kennedy,Terry Bogard, The Dark Knight, Dacon, John Marston, Teal'c
What ass?
Lord Noctis
Harbinger of Darkness
- AKA
- Caius Ballad
The soundtrack could use some work. I mean, it wasn't terrible by any means, and I actually really liked some of them. But it really didn't sound like FFVII music. Say what you will about other compilation entries, but at least they sounded like FFVII products.
Gym Leader Devil
True Master of the Dark-type (suck it Piers)
- AKA
- So many names
Ok, that perma-wedgie they stuck where her ass should be.
ForceStealer
Double Growth
You've seen me bitch before about the lack of VINCENT'S OWN THEME, but besides that, Dirge's soundtrack is really good.
Lord Noctis
Harbinger of Darkness
- AKA
- Caius Ballad
Oh I agree. Its a fine soundtrack, it just doesn't match FFVII.
I would make it a RPG game, instead of a shoot- em up. But it would be real-time, kind of like FF12.
The team party members would be Vincent, Cait Sith, Reeve, Shelke, Yuffie, Cid, Cloud, Barret and Tifa.
Vincent would have new guns, and a upgraded monster transforming limit break. Cait Sith would be without his mog but he would still role dice and use the microphone. Reeve uses a sniper gun and uses sniper shots to take down enemies, Shelke uses lasers, she joins the party near the end. Yuffie uses ninja skills, like re-appear/ disappear and be able to sneak behind enemies at kill at surprise. Cid still attacks with a spear, but he's able to jump up to near by buildings and throw cigarette bombs at monsters. Cloud has his double- sword and is able to summon the memory of Zack to help him during battles. Barret has his gun-arm still and is no different from FF VII. Tifa has learnt new karate/ judo/ wrestling moves.
Lucredia is in her crystal, but she still appears during flashbacks, Instead of being regret and feeling sorry. She shows care and love for Vincent during the flashbacks.
Yuffie x Vincent is canon. Vincent saves Yuffie from danger and they have a few romantic moments.
I'll still keep the storyline about the protomateria etc. Expect Hojo is revived by the deep underground, but instead of being human, he's like a demon and monsterfied. Vincent and Yuffie work together to try and defeat Hojo, while Cloud and the others work to defeat the Underground leaders.
The ending would be the Underground being defeated. Cloud and the rest of Avalanche cheering. Tifa suggests a party to celebrate at Seventh Heaven. Vincent refuses and grabs Yuffie, and disappears into the air. Shelke now a good person feels a little rejected, but Tifa sees her and says that she's invited and welcome anytime.
Vincent asks Yuffie to stand outside, while he speaks to Lucredia through the crystal one last time, basically saying that he's decided that it would be best to move on. While Vincent is about to leave, Lucredia apologies then. A tear falls down Vincent's eye.
The screen goes black and Vincent says a speech that he's removing his regrets, sins, pain and his past. Then the screen shows Vincent taking off his cape and stepping into the new sunlight.
The credits roll and after the credits, Vincent is at the beach wearing new clothing and Yuffie is looking in the background. The last scene is a view of Vincent's mouth and Vincent saying " You are forgiven ". Then Vincent smiling.
The team party members would be Vincent, Cait Sith, Reeve, Shelke, Yuffie, Cid, Cloud, Barret and Tifa.
Vincent would have new guns, and a upgraded monster transforming limit break. Cait Sith would be without his mog but he would still role dice and use the microphone. Reeve uses a sniper gun and uses sniper shots to take down enemies, Shelke uses lasers, she joins the party near the end. Yuffie uses ninja skills, like re-appear/ disappear and be able to sneak behind enemies at kill at surprise. Cid still attacks with a spear, but he's able to jump up to near by buildings and throw cigarette bombs at monsters. Cloud has his double- sword and is able to summon the memory of Zack to help him during battles. Barret has his gun-arm still and is no different from FF VII. Tifa has learnt new karate/ judo/ wrestling moves.
Lucredia is in her crystal, but she still appears during flashbacks, Instead of being regret and feeling sorry. She shows care and love for Vincent during the flashbacks.
Yuffie x Vincent is canon. Vincent saves Yuffie from danger and they have a few romantic moments.
I'll still keep the storyline about the protomateria etc. Expect Hojo is revived by the deep underground, but instead of being human, he's like a demon and monsterfied. Vincent and Yuffie work together to try and defeat Hojo, while Cloud and the others work to defeat the Underground leaders.
The ending would be the Underground being defeated. Cloud and the rest of Avalanche cheering. Tifa suggests a party to celebrate at Seventh Heaven. Vincent refuses and grabs Yuffie, and disappears into the air. Shelke now a good person feels a little rejected, but Tifa sees her and says that she's invited and welcome anytime.
Vincent asks Yuffie to stand outside, while he speaks to Lucredia through the crystal one last time, basically saying that he's decided that it would be best to move on. While Vincent is about to leave, Lucredia apologies then. A tear falls down Vincent's eye.
The screen goes black and Vincent says a speech that he's removing his regrets, sins, pain and his past. Then the screen shows Vincent taking off his cape and stepping into the new sunlight.
The credits roll and after the credits, Vincent is at the beach wearing new clothing and Yuffie is looking in the background. The last scene is a view of Vincent's mouth and Vincent saying " You are forgiven ". Then Vincent smiling.
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Masamune
Fiat Lux
- AKA
- Masa
Hamauzu's overrated, imho. People talk about him like he's the new Uematsu, but I've yet to hear anything that special. DoC, like you say, had an okay soundtrack, and FFXIII's was average.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
I would not make Omega and Vincent's transformations be caused by Jenova. It's been overused and I like the idea that Hojo was playing around with other power-sources besides Jenova.
What I find ironic is that Vincent is exactly what the experimentation in DG was trying to create; they were trying to create someone indestructible who couldn't die. Seeing as Hojo "made" Vincent like this all the way back when DG was first started and no one knew about it, I'm wondering if Hojo "made" Vincent with the mindset of "proving" that he was a better scientist then the one's in DG. If he did, one of the ways the WRO could figure out about DG's purpose is by finding references to DG in Hojo's files in the Shinra manor.
As much as I think having Hojo "upload" his consciousness to the internet and then take over Weiss is a weak plot point, I think a lot of other approaches would make it even weaker.
Having Hojo design DG and then leaving it with a mandate to fulfill after he dies doesn't work. The Tsievt's value strength above everything else and as they managed to kill off all the Restricters, I have a very hard time seeing them following the orders of the dead guy who is responsible for DG in the first place.
Leaving Hojo out of it at all puts the Tsievts in charge. It's never mentioned what they would do once they got out of DG. However, if it's just to kill everybody off, that would give the game no point at all except to kill DG personnel and thus, no real plot.
Another way of doing it would be to have Hojo not die and have him figure out how to control DG with the restriction chips just the the Restricters did. Only he's figured out how the Tsievts got rid Restricters the first time and fixed that problem. The problem here is that we have a character rebirth issue.
I think the best way to do this is to have some other scientist (one of Hojo's assistants maybe?) lay low through Geostigma all while keeping an eye on DG. Meanwhile, he comes up with a new, stronger resctriction chip and when the last of the Restricters are killed, he takes over DG. That would at least get rid of the Hojo rebirth problem completely.
What I find ironic is that Vincent is exactly what the experimentation in DG was trying to create; they were trying to create someone indestructible who couldn't die. Seeing as Hojo "made" Vincent like this all the way back when DG was first started and no one knew about it, I'm wondering if Hojo "made" Vincent with the mindset of "proving" that he was a better scientist then the one's in DG. If he did, one of the ways the WRO could figure out about DG's purpose is by finding references to DG in Hojo's files in the Shinra manor.
As much as I think having Hojo "upload" his consciousness to the internet and then take over Weiss is a weak plot point, I think a lot of other approaches would make it even weaker.
Having Hojo design DG and then leaving it with a mandate to fulfill after he dies doesn't work. The Tsievt's value strength above everything else and as they managed to kill off all the Restricters, I have a very hard time seeing them following the orders of the dead guy who is responsible for DG in the first place.
Leaving Hojo out of it at all puts the Tsievts in charge. It's never mentioned what they would do once they got out of DG. However, if it's just to kill everybody off, that would give the game no point at all except to kill DG personnel and thus, no real plot.
Another way of doing it would be to have Hojo not die and have him figure out how to control DG with the restriction chips just the the Restricters did. Only he's figured out how the Tsievts got rid Restricters the first time and fixed that problem. The problem here is that we have a character rebirth issue.
I think the best way to do this is to have some other scientist (one of Hojo's assistants maybe?) lay low through Geostigma all while keeping an eye on DG. Meanwhile, he comes up with a new, stronger resctriction chip and when the last of the Restricters are killed, he takes over DG. That would at least get rid of the Hojo rebirth problem completely.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
I'm not sure yet how big Hojo's role is yet, actually. He needs to have some relation to things- seriously, if it has the ShinRa label, is alive and will probably kill you for fun, there's a chance Hojo had his dick in it at some point.
Well, in my version of the story, Deepground would not be a secret army under Midgar- at least not initially. Hojo would be trying to make an army from SOLDIERS and ShinRa units stationed at the hospital. There would not be a 'base' underground at all initially, and one would only accumulate haphazardly as a direct result of Nero's power.
Likewise, as with everything Hojo touches, it wouldn't go as planned. Rosso being a homicidal sociopath would be as a result of being driven mad from Hojo's experiments.
Azul would be an attempt to recreate Vincent's ability, but Hojo would be unable to recreate the experiment without Lucrecia's research notes, etc.
I'm toying with the idea of Hojo and Weiss competing for the same body, and much the same with Shelke and Lucrecia.
Though I'm also considering having an inverse reveal where Weiss was never Hojo, just using the still active control chips to make the other Tsviets think Hojo is still alive.
I think I want Weiss to be an extremist who feels the planet requires purging to be rid of Jenova, and plans on using Omega as the ultimate method to do so.
Be assured, I think the floating Hojogram is a dumb thing and it would not be present in my magical druthers DOC.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
My only concern with this is why would Weiss think this or even care about it? He'd have to know about the lifestream, the Planet, Jenova, and what Jenova really does. The only thing he's presented as caring about is getting the heck out of DG.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Well, Weiss as we got him in DoC was barely that. We only know he wanted out of DG because of the online game. And in any case, I'm changing his motivations anyways. Hell, if you need to, make it something he picked up from Genesis.
Obsidian Fire
Ahk Morn!
- AKA
- The Engineer
Wait. Who's motivations can we change and who's can't we? If we change too many people's we might as well just make up our own characters and not even not even stick to DoC's basic storyline. For me motivations make or break a story and when characters start acting on information they most likely don't know, either I need more backstory or I leave.
If we could change anybody's motivations:
-- It turns out that Hojo's thoughts were influenced by all the Jenova-cells he injected himself with. So it's actually Jenova that wants to raise Omega and use it to fly through the stars again. Except Jenova's will is really Sephiroth's by now...
--DG splits when the saner people realize that they're out of DG and that the only reason they are going after the Protomateria is because Weiss told them to. The end up allying with the WRO.
--Genesis wakes up earlier...
--Sephiroth shows up to join himself with Omega and become a god again. This time he makes sure to not taunt Cloud before he kills him...
Okay, I'm kidding. I do think we should put some kind of guidelines up for how much we can change things and what information we should regard as cannon.
If we could change anybody's motivations:
-- It turns out that Hojo's thoughts were influenced by all the Jenova-cells he injected himself with. So it's actually Jenova that wants to raise Omega and use it to fly through the stars again. Except Jenova's will is really Sephiroth's by now...
--DG splits when the saner people realize that they're out of DG and that the only reason they are going after the Protomateria is because Weiss told them to. The end up allying with the WRO.
--Genesis wakes up earlier...
--Sephiroth shows up to join himself with Omega and become a god again. This time he makes sure to not taunt Cloud before he kills him...
Okay, I'm kidding. I do think we should put some kind of guidelines up for how much we can change things and what information we should regard as cannon.
Ryushikaze
Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
- AKA
- Tim, Ryu
Well, some of that was already in the OP, where Vincent had to be the main character, Deepground had to be the villian.
Add to that, we'll mandate that the Midgar battle must occur, Vincent has to be the one to stop the scheme for plot reasons related to his history- But you CAN change what those are- and that the threat Deepground poses is suitably epic despite their size.
And no Sephiroth. Or clones. Or anything like that.
Add to that, we'll mandate that the Midgar battle must occur, Vincent has to be the one to stop the scheme for plot reasons related to his history- But you CAN change what those are- and that the threat Deepground poses is suitably epic despite their size.
And no Sephiroth. Or clones. Or anything like that.