Misc Star Wars Tangents

#1
Sup folks. So, I appear to post a lot about Star Wars lately, and have recently ended up doing a kind of hostile takeover of the Star Wars thread by accident. Rather than force everyone to read it all the time, I figured I should quarantine at least some of it, starting from the latest post. If this is spamming, impolite or breaching some forum rule, by all means let me know. I'll start from the most recent posts.

Your article appears to disagree:

It was also cut together without the help or vision of George Lucas or producer Gary Kurtz.


Directors shoot expecting what they do to be edited later, this was never intended to be the final product and Lucas disliked it so much he hired new editors. It is very unfair to call it the result of poor editing choices by Lucas when he didn't edit it and didn't like the edit he saw.
There's a ton of cloudy information around this particular cut of the film and the nature of that relationship, and I have yet to find anything that talks definitively about him being fired from the film as its main editor either, because some places talk about him being let go, others talk about him only ever being an assembly editor, all of it's varying degrees of unspecific.

As a blueprint, the outline is still the one that George Lucas had created from storyboards and that was composed from all of the footage that he choose to shoot. None of that is the call of the editor. That's all the call of the director that that footage exists and how it was meant to tie together. Again, per that article I linked: George Lucas enlisted the help of John Jympson, a British editor, and allowed him to take the production footage that was shot up until that point and create a rough cut of the film. What John did was take whatever footage was completed at the time and assemble a rough cut of the film, putting the shots in their proper sequence, to give Lucas an idea of the narrative flow of the film. Any way you slice it, regardless of their relationship, that's STILL 100% raw George Lucas' own output just cobbled together on film.

The issue is that the editor didn't cut away enough of everything that George filmed and planned to make it work as a film. That's still clear that George's skills aren't in editing his own material, and that he needs to be curated. That's the whole point about Star Wars being saved in the edit.

The most overwhelmingly apparent thing is that – every single one of the editorial issues that were present in that "Lost Cut" workprint of the original Star Wars, are also all over the prequels. The pacing issues, the cutting back-and-forth constantly to show events in real-time, the over-delivery of information that no one cares about from a whiney kid, literally ALL of it. That's George Lucas unfiltered. He is a terrible editor. That's WHY he needed an editorial team that would do all of that for him to make Star Wars as great as they were.


Re clone troopers, matte paintings are fine for troopers at parade rest, but the Clone troopers had to fight in large battles. There would be an obvious discrepancy if the close in shots were practical, and you'd run into problems lke making sure every extra was the exact same height, weight, shoe size etc. It's just swapping one set of problems for another set of problems.
I mean... they managed just fine for the Stormtroopers in the OT being large groups of people the same body size and height. That's literally all something that's VERY achievable with casting calls for faceless extras. They also did a mix of CGI and practical costuming for the Wookiees just fine, and they're much better off for it. There's literally NO reason that that was a non-option for the Clones. It was a piss poor decision, and there's a reason that it's constantly criticized.




X :neo:


You cannot reasonably use something that Lucas didn't edit at all as an example of Lucas's poor editing skills. Every director shoots more than they need, it's just good policy, because it can always be cut later, but if something's missing, then you have to spend 200k going back to Tunisia to do a reshoot. Raw unedited footage is never intended to be the final product.

Every film is edited down from the rough cut, every film is intended to be edited down from the rough cut. It is not a fair reflection on anyone involved to treat an unpolished draft as the final product. From the same article:

There are no rules that say a rough cut has to follow the script but usually the key is to make the film flow as it was originally intended with the assumption that it will be heavily changed as the postproduction phase continues. This rough cut gives the filmmaker a good look at what’s been shot and how it flows from scene to scene. Some things will work, some things won’t. Some scenes will be too slow and some scenes won’t be necessary at all to advance the story. Some scenes will be moved to different parts of the film, if needed. Whatever the case may be, the rough cut provides a nice work print or blueprint for the film, much like a blueprint drawn by an architect gives a construction company the visual toolbox it needs to build a house from the ground up.
At the absolute worst, that still isn't an example of Lucas' bad editing. Because he did no editing (although he was involved in the subsequent cut, the 'good' one).

Calling Anakin 'whiny' is like calling AC Cloud whiny. How many people does one need to watch die before it's acceptable to be upset about it?

I mean... they managed just fine for the Stormtroopers in the OT being large groups of people the same body size and height. That's literally all something that's VERY achievable with casting calls for faceless extras. They also did a mix of CGI and practical costuming for the Wookiees just fine, and they're much better off for it. There's literally NO reason that that was a non-option for the Clones. It was a piss poor decision, and there's a reason that it's constantly criticized.
OT stormtroopers are not confirmed to be identical clones (and in canon, were not by then.) OT stormtroopers do have varying heights and different voices, etc. Wookiees do not have to be entirely identical.

What is the reason it's so constantly criticised, apart from general dislike of CGI and the prequels?
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#2
Have to agree with Clement that something Lucas didn't edit himself really can't be counted against his editing skills beyond highlighting that he knew better at one time than to trust those skills. =P

I'm only counting what is obviously on him -- i.e. his edits to the original trilogy, and the editing sensibilities at work in the prequel trilogy that are clearly drinking from the same well.

As much as editing and more so than a blanket "overuse of CGI" charge, I think a big problem for me with the prequels is the use of green screens -- and I don't even mean their presence in general. It's not like James Cameron's "Avatar" or other movies I appreciate didn't make prolific use of these things.

No, to get even more specific, I think they may only be the problem for me that they are because of the added insistence upon what feels like almost every last shot of the prequels being filmed at those same coldly clinical, clinically dead distances. It is itself an odd choice that gets compounded by the odd acting directions and the overall artificial feeling found elsewhere.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
#3
You cannot reasonably use something that Lucas didn't edit at all as an example of Lucas's poor editing skills. Every director shoots more than they need, it's just good policy, because it can always be cut later, but if something's missing, then you have to spend 200k going back to Tunisia to do a reshoot. Raw unedited footage is never intended to be the final product.

Every film is edited down from the rough cut, every film is intended to be edited down from the rough cut. It is not a fair reflection on anyone involved to treat an unpolished draft as the final product. From the same article:

There are no rules that say a rough cut has to follow the script but usually the key is to make the film flow as it was originally intended with the assumption that it will be heavily changed as the postproduction phase continues. This rough cut gives the filmmaker a good look at what’s been shot and how it flows from scene to scene. Some things will work, some things won’t. Some scenes will be too slow and some scenes won’t be necessary at all to advance the story. Some scenes will be moved to different parts of the film, if needed. Whatever the case may be, the rough cut provides a nice work print or blueprint for the film, much like a blueprint drawn by an architect gives a construction company the visual toolbox it needs to build a house from the ground up.
At the absolute worst, that still isn't an example of Lucas' bad editing. Because he did no editing (although he was involved in the subsequent cut, the 'good' one).
He designed the story. He set up the storyboards for how the movie was intended to be assembled and shot. He also directed and shot all of those scenes in ways that he felt were satisfactory. The story, as it exists raw in George Lucas' mind, how he mentally lays it out, and initially captures it on film isn't one that translates well to film-based storytelling (more on that in a sec). HOWEVER, a good story can be assembled from it by having someone else condense, re-order, and trim down things for him. He requires other people to HEAVILY curate and edit his ideas FOR him, in order for the pictures to work.

Evidence of that is the fact that the OT & Prequels feel very different, but that the "Lost Cut" and the Prequels feel very similar. That cut of the film and the prequel didn't have Marcia Lucas as their editor – which is who George trusted the most. That's why this is a George Lucas problem. His wife-at-the-time was instrumental in taking apart things the way that George structured them, and refining them into a successful vision – because he isn't the best at doing that on his own. If he could – he'd be a good editor. He was MASSIVELY involved in making decisions about edits in the Prequels down to splicing together takes the way that he wanted them. As a direct quote from George Lucas:

"I really enjoy editing the most. It's the part I have the most control over, it's the part I can deal with the easiest. It's the part I can rely on the most to save thing, for better or worse. Everyone has their Ace in the hole – mine's editing."

As I said before, there's a reason that there are SO DAMN MANY re-edits of the Prequels that improve them without adding in anything extra, just by altering the structure of the storytelling. That's further proof of the fact that the biggest issue of those films is its editing, and that George has his hands all over that work that's rife with the same issues that the "Lost Cut" of A New Hope had.

Calling Anakin 'whiny' is like calling AC Cloud whiny. How many people does one need to watch die before it's acceptable to be upset about it?
I'm not at all being critical of Anakin being whiny. I'm stating a fact that in the Prequels, Anakin is whiny. It's a Skywalker trait. So is Ben in the Sequel Trilogy, and so was everyone's favourite Luke "Tosche Station" Skywalker in the Original Trilogy – and that's my point. There was a ton MORE of stuff that was planned out and shot around Luke being a goofy, weird, whiny teenager that was WAY too centrally focused in the "Lost Cut" – in the same way that we saw the over-focus on those same things with Anakin in the Prequels. Again, that's raw George Lucas.

I mean... they managed just fine for the Stormtroopers in the OT being large groups of people the same body size and height. That's literally all something that's VERY achievable with casting calls for faceless extras. They also did a mix of CGI and practical costuming for the Wookiees just fine, and they're much better off for it. There's literally NO reason that that was a non-option for the Clones. It was a piss poor decision, and there's a reason that it's constantly criticized.
OT stormtroopers are not confirmed to be identical clones (and in canon, were not by then.) OT stormtroopers do have varying heights and different voices, etc. Wookiees do not have to be entirely identical.

What is the reason it's so constantly criticised, apart from general dislike of CGI and the prequels?
You don't have to worry about speaking parts for fully-armored troops, so the different voices is completely a non-factor, since most of their dialogue would be captured in ADR anyway. Case in point: Darth Vader in literally every film.

You can absolutely put out a casting call for non-speaking roles for a bunch of 172cm extras of a similar physical build, and believably have them be clones on screen. You don't HAVE to do that in CGI, and you absolutely don't HAVE to have them be CGI in every single goddamn scene.

As the biggest poin:, There's no reason that you couldn't put the actual clone actor Temuera Morrison in an ACTUAL FUCKING SUIT rather than digitally splice his head into a CGI body when he's on-screen, especially with other physically present actors:



Literally NONE of that is necessary, but it was a specific decision by George Lucas to do that. Decisions like that are why people talk about over-use of CGI. The Prequels rely heavily on using CGI when it is completely and utterly unnecessary, and is often visually inferior to just capturing something in-camera.





X :neo:
 
#4
He designed the story. He set up the storyboards for how the movie was intended to be assembled and shot. He also directed and shot all of those scenes in ways that he felt were satisfactory. The story, as it exists raw in George Lucas' mind, how he mentally lays it out, and initially captures it on film isn't one that translates well to film-based storytelling (more on that in a sec). HOWEVER, a good story can be assembled from it by having someone else condense, re-order, and trim down things for him. He requires other people to HEAVILY curate and edit his ideas FOR him, in order for the pictures to work.
That is the process of every film ever. That's what editors are for. Scenes are always cut, trimmed, and rearranged. That's not a failing of the director, because everything is shot in the knowledge that it will be edited. And as you quoted, Lucas knows about how much can change in the edit.

Evidence of that is the fact that the OT & Prequels feel very different, but that the "Lost Cut" and the Prequels feel very similar. That cut of the film and the prequel didn't have Marcia Lucas as their editor – which is who George trusted the most. That's why this is a George Lucas problem. His wife-at-the-time was instrumental in taking apart things the way that George structured them, and refining them into a successful vision – because he isn't the best at doing that on his own. If he could – he'd be a good editor. He was MASSIVELY involved in making decisions about edits in the Prequels down to splicing together takes the way that he wanted them. As a direct quote from George Lucas:
You haven't seen the Lost Cut, X. You've seen a third hand Youtube video that neglected to even mention Jympson's name (I have trouble believing that they could have done that much research into the editing of Star Wars without knowing about him, so now I'm not sure how far the rest can be trusted.) What else have they left out?

Lucas was also heavily involved in the edits of the OT, but somehow he doesn't get credit for that.

I'm not at all being critical of Anakin being whiny. I'm stating a fact that in the Prequels, Anakin is whiny. It's a Skywalker trait. So is Ben in the Sequel Trilogy, and so was everyone's favourite Luke "Tosche Station" Skywalker in the Original Trilogy – and that's my point. There was a ton MORE of stuff that was planned out and shot around Luke being a goofy, weird, whiny teenager that was WAY too centrally focused in the "Lost Cut" – in the same way that we saw the over-focus on those same things with Anakin in the Prequels. Again, that's raw George Lucas.
#

'Whiny' carries a derogatory connotation to me, but whatever.

You don't have to worry about speaking parts for fully-armored troops, so the different voices is completely a non-factor, since most of their dialogue would be captured in ADR anyway. Case in point: Darth Vader in literally every film.
True.

You can absolutely put out a casting call for non-speaking roles for a bunch of 172cm extras of a similar physical build, and believably have them be clones on screen. You don't HAVE to do that in CGI, and you absolutely don't HAVE to have them be CGI in every single goddamn scene.
You still have to use CG for the wide shots because of the running battles that have to take place, and using practical for close shots will obviously look different (and it will be noticed, because this is the Star Wars fanbase we're dealing with). No matter how careful you are with builds, something will slip through because it's difficult to get the exactly the same and even if you do it will still look different to the CGI you have to use in the wide shots.

CGI was always going to be heavily necessary for the prequels, because puppetry and suits have limited movement. If you want to move beyond 'human with weird face' or 'puppet that we have to keep in the shadows and not move much', you need CG. If you have a huge complex environment like the Senate Chamber, then you need CG. If you have aliens like the Kaminoans -that neck is not feasible in a puppet or a man in a suit-, then you need CG. If you want to have truly creative environments like Felucia that can't be replicated on earth, then you need CG. When did you feel it wasn't necessary?

Honestly, I think the re edits of the OT are mostly fine,they're just tweaking the special effects or adding backgrounds for the most part. Re cutting in Biggs was a good move, the only outright bad move is Force Ghost PT Anakin.

For the sake of argument, let's assume that the prequels are indeed badly edited. That is still the fault of the editor, because it's their job to edit, and fight with the director if necessary, to produce the best product possible. So you're still blaming the wrong person.
 
#5
Oh, by the way, X, TLJ isn't out here until April 10 (sorry, It's been so long since I bought a new DVD that I forgot to check the date, so I won't get to report in on my rewatch until then. Sorry, pure stupidity.)
 
#6
Update: I have now rewatched TLJ.

Very well acted, great score, although that goes without saying for a Star Wars film. Everyone nailed the role they were given.

Rey/Kylo/Snoke was done well. The other plots were more questionable.

I count 13 surviving Resistance members. Probably not canon.

More cohesive this runthrough, I caught some details I missed the first time. But I still feel they badly mishandled their themes and continuity. I'll spare you the whole rant again, but it stands. The film isn't terribly executed, but feels dishonest in its themes, kind of the same way I felt about Justice League's production taking shots at the previous creator.

Note: I would have been disappointed by Snoke being Plagaeus (sorry, can't remember how to spell it offhand) or Rey being related to somebody. I have no inherent objection to fallen Luke, I just think it wasn't well executed.

Edit: PLAGUEIS! How did I not know that, it's just 'Plague' with some add ons.
 
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#7
Round 3: A lot of the smaller things clear up, but the the themes and continuity still terribly written and contradictory, and IMO dishonest towards the PT.

Not fair to blame Rian at the same time, he was in a super difficult position.

Music and performances still brilliant.
 
#8
I am dubious. I don't like being dubious, or being the 'stop enjoying yourself' guy, but I'm concerned that this film will follow the lead of TFA, which was basically built on a foundation of prequel hatred. If you look at the marketing, you find things like JJ Abrams removing podracing flags from the background of a scene, almost certainly because they're a PT reference (this, in a movie that's basically one giant wall to wall OT reference),
or joking about putting Jar Jar's skeleton in the background of a scene, plus the whole 'real sets, practical effects' marketing trick.

I took the d23 footage as a bad sign, because the PT is very obviously the neglected middle child in it, in terms of screentime and focus.

The best I can hope for is that the marketing dept made them do that. Potentially, TROS might try to profit from TLJ hate the way TFA did from PT hate, there are already a few hints of that (repaired sabre, repaired helmet, underming TLJ'S big dramatic moments)
), which I wouldn't be on board with either. Undermining your predecessor's work for the purposes of making your own look better is bad form, but can they resist taking the quick and easy path, given the pressure to deliver? I'm not sure.

Maybe I'll eat all these words in a few days. I hope so, but I don't think so.
 
#9
Eh, it's fine. No real big 'wow' moment, nothing that looks obviously bad.

Was hoping for a visual of Palpatine, because how they handle that is a huge part of whether this will work or not. It's going to be a very difficult sell.

C3PO brain surgery seems strange, but interesting.

'The Saga will end'. Until our next movie.

Dislike: "Good people will fight if we lead them."

I know it's a marketing line, but that's not a great message.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
#11
A big part about something like the Resistance is in its leadership. There are plenty of people all over the galaxy who want to do the right thing, but lack the knowledge of how or where to apply themselves in order to effectively accomplish something as a cohesive group – especially something incredibly significant like overthrowing a tyrannical government. This is a large part of why Leia spent so much of The Last Jedi focusing on Poe's qualities as a leader – he has the charisma, skill, and passion to get people to follow him, but being able to think through the larger consequences of action beyond the cathartic immediate opportunity for victory for the thing right in front of you is what wins wars and not just battles, and is what differentiates a leader from a liability.

The whole message of being the spark that lights the fire that burns down the First Order is all about galvanizing the good people all across the galaxy with what they need to be able to stand up against the oppression that holds them down. (Given the current socio-political climate, it's an important thing to remember as well, since there is a lot of vocal minority who are manipulating a disenfranchised majority who don't really know how to go about unifying against it effectively – and Star Wars films are always politically inclined – Return of the Jedi's commentary of Vietnam with the Ewoks being an example of cooperation and leadership from the Rebellion winning out over the vastly superior forces of the Empire are another key example of that idea from within Star Wars).




X :neo:
 
#12
Resistance movements normally start from the ground up, though. A group of local friends, co workers whatever that decide to do something about their oppressors. If they get successful, they eventually link up with other cells and form a network.

It's so very arrogant and entitled to talk down to the galaxy of trillions and say 'you need us to teach you how to resist'. Especially from these characters, who've just finished getting the entirety of their previous command slaughtered. In the other movies, the attitude is more 'how can we help?' than 'they're powerless without us.'

It's ultimately a line in the trailer, and not something to take all that seriously, but not a great omen.

I've never liked that Ewok comparison and could say a lot on it, but that's probably off topic.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
#13
Even movements that start from the ground-up need to be able to coordinate together in order to effectively combat a large, centrally organized entity. This has been explored with the Rebellion with earlier splinter units like the one lead by Saw Gerrera who operated independently, and what happens when those units don't have coordinated leadership to act on a unified front. That's basically the plot of Rogue One.

Where are you getting the idea that they're putting themselves on a pedestal and talking down to the entire galaxy? That feels like some pretty heavy projection. Leading a resistance is all about showing the downtrodden and disenfranchised that you can effectively push back. There are plenty of good people who want to help, and who'd be willing to do things who don't have the self-directed initiative, or who simply lack the information about how they can meaningfully contribute. It's all about utilizing your knowledge, privilege, and experience to assist those who lack those things, so that not every single cell has to independently discover what's effective against overwhelming odds, because that's what totalitarian oppression is exceptionally good at cracking down on.

Also, how is there anything that's off topic in a thread called Star Wars Tangents? :mon:



X :neo:
 
#14
Uhm, the plot of Rogue One is of a cell going rogue of its own volition because the centralised leadership won't act on critical information.

"We're not alone. Good people will act if we lead them"

It's one line in a trailer, I don't want to overanalyse too much.
But:

Implication: Good people will not act if we don't lead them. If that's really the direction they go, they regard themselves as necessary to inspire the galaxy to fight back, because Starkiller somehow didn't already do that. If they need to inspire people, that means they're not already inspired. 'You need us to inspire you to act' is talking down to the galaxy, if they really mean 'no one else will do anything unless we lead them'.

If by 'lead' they mean leading by example, it might work. Although that bell got rung in TFA, and apparently it didn't work, people won't even pick up the phone to Leia.

But in terms of actually taking command of new people:

"Hey, we have experience fighting the First Order!"

"Yes, and they slaughtered you. The only reason any of you are alive is because you were bailed out by Luke Skywalker, and he died doing it. You got your entire command slaughtered, why should we take orders from you?"


Re: Ewoks: Fair point re the thread, okay, more accurately it's a rabbithole of discussion that will go on forever and I'm trying to stop doing that.
 
AKA
The Engineer
#15
The thing with Good People needing to be inspired is that they are good people. And usually that means they want what is best for the people they personally know. Throwing everything away to be part of a "rebel cell" usually means leaving behind the people they personally know and can personally help out for an ambiguous "cause". It's basically asking people to help people they don't personally know and not help people they personally know. And the kind of help good people can give to people they personally know is direct and can easy to see and imagine. Helping out "causes" is a lot harder to see tangible evidence of.

The reason why "good people" need to be inspired is so that they can see things beyond their personal bubble. If they think trying to change things on the macro level isn't going to do anything, while changing things on the micro level will, any large-scale resistance/rebellion will never get up off the ground. And with the state the rebellion is in at the end of the Last Jedi, they need a lot of people to back them up. Only the people who would do that probably don't know the rebellion/resistance survived intact.

So letting the galaxy at large know that (a) the rebellion survived and has a leader and (b) it can effect society on a large-scale in a good way is super important. And then it would need (c) something normal people can do to help out the rebellion. Joining the rebellion is the obvious thing, but there's plenty of ways people can help that don't involve that either.
 

Roger

Novice DM
AKA
Minato
#16
The thing with Good People needing to be inspired is that they are good people. And usually that means they want what is best for the people they personally know. Throwing everything away to be part of a "rebel cell" usually means leaving behind the people they personally know and can personally help out for an ambiguous "cause". It's basically asking people to help people they don't personally know and not help people they personally know. And the kind of help good people can give to people they personally know is direct and can easy to see and imagine. Helping out "causes" is a lot harder to see tangible evidence of.

The reason why "good people" need to be inspired is so that they can see things beyond their personal bubble. If they think trying to change things on the macro level isn't going to do anything, while changing things on the micro level will, any large-scale resistance/rebellion will never get up off the ground. And with the state the rebellion is in at the end of the Last Jedi, they need a lot of people to back them up. Only the people who would do that probably don't know the rebellion/resistance survived intact.

So letting the galaxy at large know that (a) the rebellion survived and has a leader and (b) it can effect society on a large-scale in a good way is super important. And then it would need (c) something normal people can do to help out the rebellion. Joining the rebellion is the obvious thing, but there's plenty of ways people can help that don't involve that either.
The resistance survived the Last Jedi intact about as much as the Jedi Order survived the prequels intact though.
 
AKA
The Engineer
#17
Then even more reason for the Resistance to get word out that their core leadership and heavy hitters did survive. Unlike the Jedi Order, fighting when vastly out-numbered and with no offical political support is something the Resistance leaders of The Last Jedi (especially Leia) have experience with. I can easily see The Rise of Skywalker being mainly about the last generation of Rebels officially passing on the torch to the next generation.

We already saw the Jedi/Sith do that in The Last Jedi and inklings that Leia wanted to do that with Poe. Now we just need to see the lessons learned in the Last Jedi at the end stick.
 
#18
Their core leadership didn't survive. All that's left is Leia. Finn's a new recruit, Rose is a low level tech, Poe was a squadron leader who was recently demoted for getting subordinates killed. The only claim they have to leadership is either meta knowledge of being the lead characters or lying to people about their record. Sheltering them is very likely to bring the FO down on you without any particular advantage.

Leia's father is Darth Vader, and her son is Supreme leader Kylo. Hosnian Prime was destroyed on her watch.

The surviving Resistance members have nothing much to offer any other cells. Poe's a good pilot, but he's not the only good pilot in the galaxy. They don't have any particular information about FO workings that you can't get from any random Stormtrooper janitor.

. They have ancient Jedi texts, but the best thing to do with those right now is to publish them on Wookieeleaks, so that people like Broom kid can learn from them. They've already done any inspiring they're going to do by destroying Starkiller.

If the Resistance grow back a fleet in Ep 9 after being destroyed, there's a stakes problem, because if the complete destruction of the last one in Ep 8 didn't matter, why should this fleet be any different? They can just grow another one back.

Throwing everything away to be part of a "rebel cell" usually means leaving behind the people they personally know and can personally help out for an ambiguous "cause". It's basically asking people to help people they don't personally know and not help people they personally know. And the kind of help good people can give to people they personally know is direct and can easy to see and imagine. Helping out "causes" is a lot harder to see tangible evidence of.
This is... not particularly rare. There's no need for any special inspiration here. Plenty of people do good work for a cause all the time.
 
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X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
#19
The First Order managed to execute a blitzkrieg coming out of the Unknown Regions against the entirety of the New Republic – and they decimated the entire Hosnian system and the New Republic's meager military in that initial assault. The Resistance is the sole reason that Starkiller base was destroyed, and they were relentlessly hunted down for it – at which point Supreme Leader Snoke's capitol ship was obliterated, he was killed, and then THE Luke Skywalker willingly gave his life to ensure the survival of the remaining Resistance leaders specifically so that they could bring the galaxy together against the First Order.

All of that happened in the span of roughly a week.

If you want to look at this the way that the galaxy at large would, with the information spreading through back channels, rumor, and a message of hope to the downtrodden – the remaining members of the Resistance are huge heroes despite their losses, and they've already done MASSIVE things to stem the speed of the incursion of the First Order into the Galaxy. Literal years pass between all of the Star Wars films (Rogue One & Episode IV notwithstanding), but even before things start here, you're already looking at the loss of a supreme leader and the destruction of their primary superweapon in near IMMEDIATE response to them appearing as a galactic threat – all done by a tiny group of fighters against overwhelming odds. They are absolutely the people you would follow if you wanted to get results on a macro scale against the growing totalitarian power of the First Order.




X :neo:
 
#20
That's the thing, isn't it? What does the galaxy know?

Starkiller should have prompted a massive reaction from the galaxy, if that was what they were going for. That's a great victory that dwarfs everything else they've done, although it is precipitated by the massive failure of not preventing it being built in the first place.

TLJ plays that down, though and nobody even picks up the phone to Leia. Everyone's talking about how if they die the spark is out, not that they struck a massive blow that will inspire the galaxy. Saying otherwise for episode 9 invalidates the stakes of TLJ, because the galaxy would be inspired by that even if the Resistance were killed to the last man.

Instead, they act as though Luke's stand is the inspiring part, even though that would just be really confusing to an outside onlooker.

Is Luke dead or not? His body is gone, but that happened to Obi Wan too, it's really unclear if Kylo killed him or not, because the wider galaxy doesn't have the benefit of a cutaway to Atch-To. Is Luke a martyr, is he in hiding, is everyone now terrified of Kylo, who supposedly defeated the the hero Luke Skywalker in single combat? In universe, most people won't be sure exactly what happened there, which is a problem when it comes to inspiration.

The Resistance's previous successes are mostly done by people that are now dead (Han, Luke, Holdo) The Resistance was completely blindsided by Starkiller, they had no plan, and didn't anticipate it at all despite their job being to monitor the FO. They destroyed it due to Han and Finn, who just pointed at Phasma and they got lucky that she was such a coward. Snoke was Kylo taking advantage of Rey. Leia asked Han to bring Ben home, which got him killed, and then asked for help from Luke, which got him killed.

So the surviving resistance members have to either take credit for things they weren't responsible for, or else go 'hi, we just got all our subordinates killed. Who wants to sign on to be our new subordinates?'
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#21
Hm. Well, @Clement Rage, not that you don't raise a good question or three, but if taken to heart, one does have to ask how the Rebel Alliance would have ever gotten as many recruits as they did back when the Empire was still running things.

Though the Empire was run by an outright evil bastard, the average person would not have known anything much about him -- and at least all the trains were running on time, which is probably more than can be said for the state of things between TFA and TRoS. It's very hard not to imagine more folks having Jyn Erso's "It's not a problem if you don't look up [at the flag]" attitude 30-40 years prior than during the present, yet a rebellion still formed then and gained additional recruits when necessary.

I think the questions you raise would have to apply to the setting as a whole -- if not most fiction that involves similar tropes and plot elements -- if given the degree of cerebral prominence you're applying to the Sequel Trilogy.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
#22
Starkiller base along with the vast majority of all of the First Order's military was constructed in the Unknown Regions – an area of the galaxy that is both uncharted as well as not controlled by the New Republic. I'm not sure exactly how preventing its construction would've been achieved directly. However, the reason that they were able to set up the First Order at all is again because the massively powerful and wealthy entities (like we see at Canto Bight) never stopped using back channels to provide funding and resources for the former Imperial forces because they profit off of the conflict.

Inherently this all exploring the same problems that existed on Tatooine back in Episode I where the New Republic couldn't help a little slave boy because it was outside of their jurisdiction – but Qui-Gon decided to anyway. As a result Anakin never really managed to save the people he cared about most because the rules he was bound by wouldn't allow it (he lost his mother because of the rules of the Jedi and eschewing attachment, and he lost Padmé because of what the Sith made him), until Luke came along and he broke the rules to return to his true self and act solely out of love. To quote Dave Filoni:

The best expression of the Force is not a lightsaber fight or other combat techniques. It’s really about your connection to life, to everything around you, and your ability or willingness to let go, to find peace, and ultimately become a selfless part of existence. Luke Skywalker does not use some special ability to save his father. He trains hard, finds discipline, knowledge, but in the end there is no power that aids him, except the power of compassion and love; the act of forgiveness and apparent self-sacrifice is what saves his father from the dark side.
That right there is what you're looking at with the Skywalker Saga. It's mirrored in the dichotomy of Rey's yearning to be someone of significance and belong, and Ben's desire to have power and fulfill his grandfather's legacy and bring about order to the galaxy. Inherently, the galaxy can never be free if there are people who are continually driving it back into conflict. If there are leaders who are destabilizing the galaxy, you need people who are just as effective at leading others to counteract that in specific and decisive ways, because otherwise you're just falling into more of what Palpatine was doing – playing both sides for profit and power, and turning all of the best intentions of good people against one another, because there was no one who had the clear vision to effectively lead them against him – such that even when the Empire was destroyed, those systems stayed in place and kept the cycle going.


When it comes to the Resistance, it's not about yelling "come join us and defeat the First Order" it's about going to other people, and showing them how to act effectively to save the things and the people that they care about. THAT'S why no one responded to Leia's message, and also what the central theme of The Last Jedi was "not destroying what you hate, but saving what you love" – so as to redirect the solution that we saw occurring in Return of the Jedi back out towards the rest of the galaxy that remained unaddressed since the Prequel Era. If people have safety under the Empire or the First Order or the Hutts for what actually matters to them, they're not going to join you to rise against them. That's the whole reason why the war profiteers, slavers, and others perpetuate conflict – because they care about their own wellbeing more than the consequences of their actions. Winning is about being the spark that enables empowering the downtrodden to save what matters to them, in order to unify people together to achieve the common goal of peace and stability regardless of where they live or what they do. Those people literally don't care about how many Starkiller bases you blew up, but they will care if you can show them how to save their family from the First Order, rather than destroying the First Order for them and using that to attempt to rally them to your cause against evil. Palpatine's greatest power wasn't his skills with the Dark Side – despite how incredibly strong he was, it was literally in politics and manipulations of others for his own gain, and leading a resistance is about effectively dismantling the existing systems that're designed to continually re-funnel power back to the places that have always been exploiting it like the Empire & First Order or the ones turning a blind eye to it like the Old/New Republic. It isn't clear to what degree that's being addressed – but it still requires leaders to get there.

Looking at just the 9 films as a complete whole is what I've been trying to focus on when dissecting these things since this is an intentionally crafted end to the trilogy of the trilogies helps a lot in trying to unpack where things are most likely headed, and what they're attempting to communicate as a message from end-to-end.



X :neo:
 

The Mad King

Harbinger of Darkness
AKA
Lord Noctis, Caius Ballad, Midnight Rider of War, Quilge Opie
#24
The You Tube channel Star Wars Explained got his hands on an early copy or something and posted a review. From what he said this book is pretty good
 
#25
Hm. Well, @Clement Rage, not that you don't raise a good question or three, but if taken to heart, one does have to ask how the Rebel Alliance would have ever gotten as many recruits as they did back when the Empire was still running things.
That was addressed back then:
Leia: The more you tighten your fist, the more systems will slip through your grasp.

The Empire's various atrocities galvanised people against them, they didn't need to be led by any one person. Our lead characters weren't even the leaders of the rebellion, that was Mon Mothma, and there were constant references to other people having their own fights offscreen ('many Bothans died to bring us these plans.)

Obi Wan and Yoda went into hiding, and yet a Rebel Alliance formed anyway. They didn't go 'we have to take command, no one will act unless we lead them.'

I am raising these questions for the setting as a whole. For the first 6 films, they're answered (and I don't mean in some side story or trading card from 1987, in the stories as written.)

@X Soldier:

The thing about that is, the Resistance is specifically formed to keep an eye on the FO. New canon goes into detail about how difficult it was to hide the first death star, multiple people figure it out due to things like the rise in precious metals on the stock market. They don't seem to have any difficulty finding it once it fires, and Finn isn't a navigator, he wouldn't be able to help with that. There's actually no mention of the Unknown regions in the films themselves, as far as I know. Taking the OT, (prior to Rogue One), the Rebellion already have the plans when the film begins, they're keeping a close eye on the people they're supposed to be watching.


Inherently this all exploring the same problems that existed on Tatooine back in Episode I where the New Republic couldn't help a little slave boy because it was outside of their jurisdiction – but Qui-Gon decided to anyway. As a result Anakin never really managed to save the people he cared about most because the rules he was bound by wouldn't allow it (he lost his mother because of the rules of the Jedi and eschewing attachment, and he lost Padmé because of what the Sith made him), until Luke came along and he broke the rules to return to his true self and act solely out of love. To quote Dave Filoni:
Hold up.

Qui Gon only shows an interest in Anakin when he shows himself super powerful in the Force, until then, his stance is 'I'm not here to free slaves'.

He lost his mother because Watto wouldn't sell her, nothing to do with the rules of the Jedi. And in AOTC, he lost his mother because he didn't know his bad dreams were premonitions, because no one knew that (and no one could, without reading ahead in the script.)

He lost Padme because he chose to kill children to save her. He made that choice, no one else did.

The Jedi rules on attachments have nothing to do with any of that.

Suppose that attachment rule isn't there. How do things play out differently? If Anakin has contact with his mother, Palpatine knows about her, and if she proves an obstacle to his plans, he has her killed in some grisly way anyway. If Anakin is openly married, he still wants to save his wife from a painful death in childbirth, Palpatine can still dangle his darkside knowledge of how to save her over his head. Nothing changes.

The rules on attachment gets the blame because Western audiences don't like the idea of them, but they actually have nothing to do
with Anakin's fall.

That right there is what you're looking at with the Skywalker Saga. It's mirrored in the dichotomy of Rey's yearning to be someone of significance and belong, and Ben's desire to have power and fulfill his grandfather's legacy and bring about order to the galaxy. Inherently, the galaxy can never be free if there are people who are continually driving it back into conflict. If there are leaders who are destabilizing the galaxy, you need people who are just as effective at leading others to counteract that in specific and decisive ways, because otherwise you're just falling into more of what Palpatine was doing – playing both sides for profit and power, and turning all of the best intentions of good people against one another, because there was no one who had the clear vision to effectively lead them against him – such that even when the Empire was destroyed, those systems stayed in place and kept the cycle going.
What cycle?

Pre Palpatine: 1,000 years of peace.

Palpatine: Really complicated scheme that with great effort manages to destabilise republic

Post Palpatine: Remnant flees into unknown regions after its defeat. Palpatine deliberately tries to destroy his own systems with Operation Cinder.

New Republic dismantles tools of oppression, to the point of mothballing most of their army.

FO returns as an external threat, not a relic of systems left behind. Snoke is dealt with by Kylo, no one seems particularly effective at countering him, but he's still from the UR, unrelated to the Empire and its systems. Snoke isn't a relic of the empire, he's an outsider.

However Palpatine returns, it won't be by using systems he left behind, because the NR political system was destroyed by Starkiller.

Aside re Rey and Ben:

Rey's motivations: In TFA, she doesn't want to be someone of significance, she just wants her family back. She's offered second mate on the Falcon, she's offered the lightsabre, and turns them down (to the point of running away) because she wants a family. It's only in TLJ that she gets the 'be someone of significance' motive.

Kylo also has two contradictory motivations: 1. Finish what (Vader) started. 2. Kill the past, let old things die. Amusingly, he includes the Sith on his list of things that need to die, right after doing the Sithiest thing ever, killing his master, becoming the master, and trying to take a new apprentice.

When it comes to the Resistance, it's not about yelling "come join us and defeat the First Order" it's about going to other people, and showing them how to act effectively to save the things and the people that they care about. THAT'S why no one responded to Leia's message, and also what the central theme of The Last Jedi was "not destroying what you hate, but saving what you love" – so as to redirect the solution that we saw occurring in Return of the Jedi back out towards the rest of the galaxy that remained unaddressed since the Prequel Era. If people have safety under the Empire or the First Order or the Hutts for what actually matters to them, they're not going to join you to rise against them
Luke deliberately doesn't lead the mission on Endor, he realises he's jeopardising it and steps back, trusting the others to get it done. Following that example would be if Leia et al decided to step back from the frontlines, having faith in the rest of the galaxy to continue the fight while they go after a specific objective (which may yet be the plot of 9, in fairness.) Ultimately, this may be a dramatic sounding line in a trailer that doesn't mean anything, and I'm hoping so.

Looking at just the 9 films as a complete whole is what I've been trying to focus on when dissecting these things since this is an intentionally crafted end to the trilogy of the trilogies helps a lot in trying to unpack where things are most likely headed, and what they're attempting to communicate as a message from end-to-end.
Sure. The issue with that is the Episode 9 is marketing itself as the culmination of the saga while ignoring the PT as much as possible, or being needlessly derogatory towards it. TFA is a wall to wall OT reference, the main reference to the PT being Kylo's clarification that FO troopers aren't clones. The PT Jedi come up only so people can complain about them. In all of these trailers so far, the reference to the PT is B1s in the background (and in the demo reel, the PT section is visibly shorter than the other segments.)

You can't have a 'culmination of the saga' while hating half of it.

Maybe the movie will prove me wrong.

I'm not doing this to troll y'all, for what it's worth. Star Wars is not my religion, by any means. I think there's a mean spirited edge to how the ST is being sold, and that's part of the reason I'm dubious of it.

Wow, imagine I'd had reservations about more than one line...
 
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