More Information On Sephiroth's childhood and showing Sephiroth as a child

[jazzflower92]

I want there to be more light shed on Sephiroth as a child and his relationship with Gast. I mean the fact Sephiroth knew about Gast would help further the irony of the fact that he later kills his daughter. I was thinking maybe there would be journals in the games that could have belonged to Gast which tell of his experience with Sephiroth. Even better maybe there should be some journals from Hojo detailing Sephiroth's childhood.

 

[Starling]

That would be cool. From what I remember, Gast left Shinra around 1980, which would give Sephiroth about 3 years to know him. If you bumped that up to 1983, you'd get the more plausible age of 6 to go with. I suppose maybe Sephiroth has good enough memory to retain vague elements of his childhood and didn't know Gast as long as he gave the impression of knowing him in the OG due to nostalgia or something, since Gast was probably the nicest person he knew. He probably also studied Gast's past work at some point or something as well. I don't think SE's going to do the journal thing, though I'd appreciate if they decided to add more info about Gast. Sephiroth's probably better off left as a mystery so they'd only add vague mentions at best.

 

[OneThousandCuts]

I think having Sephiroth read some additional snippets from whatever journal he's researching when down in the basement could be good.

As for Sephiroth's childhood--the context clues as to what that was like are really all over the place if you look closely. Overall, those clues tend to point to a very dark and stressful childhood.

He never met his mother. In fact, efforts were made to ensure he would not. He was considered company property, and the Science dept's, no less. He was dehumanized at birth.

His father (Hojo) was not interested in claiming him as his own in any nurturing, paternal sense. To him, Sephiroth was nothing but a trophy to show off.

Sephiroth's preoccupation with finding out who his parents were can be said to reveal a rather large emotional hole. Becoming at least somewhat secure in one's own identity as a human being or at least a person of some intrinsic worth is something that generally occurs during childhood. Aside from his brief time with Gast, Sephiroth was most certainly denied this. His self-isolation after seeing the Makonoids housed in Nibelheim's reactor, how tremendously he snapped after reading all he could get his hands on in the basement, and how obsessed he became with his 'mother' after that shows a sort of preexisting codependency on the very concept of said parent. It shows how greatly he longs for that parent's approval. It also points to a man who was forced to grow up and play the part of an adult and a soldier so fast, there is likely a suppressed part of his thinking that is still very much that of a child.

Even Loz, Yazoo, and Kadaj all have a sort of childishness about them--tantrums, crying, and a sort mischievous play in their battles.

On the one hand, I agree with Starling. There should remain some mystery to Sephiroth's past. On the other--Would having more of Sephiroth's past unveiled really reveal anything we don't, on some level, already kind of know? It seems to me that knowing more would, at best, make it easier for some to empathize with Sephiroth. At worst, it would strengthen the misguided perception that a few fans hold that he's not a "real" villain because understandably cruel circumstances led him down the path he ultimately walked. (Which is BS in my mind, because poor childhood circumstances do not serve as an excuse for genocidal acts, but I digress.)

 

[Starling]

I liked the pacing for when he reads the journal, so I'd rather have the chance to find it in the basement when you get to Nibelheim. I mean unless Hojo moved the information in the 5 years that followed, it should still be there.

You did a pretty good job summing up how Sephiroth was likely psychologically affected by the kind of upbringing he's implied to have had.

I don't get the sentiment that a villain with a reason for being the way they are is somehow not a "real" one. Do only flat characters qualify for them? Limited knowledge of something that's a threat to you adds to its threatening nature, which is something that's in play in Sephiroth's case. At the same time, we know that he was once a decent guy, so he's not just evil because evil like your typical unexplained villain that just is. We even get to see some of what he used to be like, which adds to that. You can like Sephiroth as a character but Draco in Leather Pants is going too far and is a much loathed trope.

 

[OneThousandCuts]

I don't get the sentiment that a villain with a reason for being the way they are is somehow not a "real" one. Do only flat characters qualify for them? Limited knowledge of something that's a threat to you adds to its threatening nature, which is something that's in play in Sephiroth's case. At the same time, we know that he was once a decent guy, so he's not just evil because evil like your typical unexplained villain that just is. We even get to see some of what he used to be like, which adds to that. You can like Sephiroth as a character but Draco in Leather Pants is going too far and is a much loathed trope.

Neither do I. Personally, I find villains with understandable roots far more intriguing and tragic, not to mention frightening for how they paint a picture of what a total loss of faith in and identification with humanity can do. In my opinion, a good villain is one that kind of provides in his or her behavior a sort of unspoken commentary on the less than noble points of human nature and behavior.

But because I'm apparently a masochist, I like to punish myself by reading through all the comments on every Sephiroth artwork I see, which inevitably contains that one person who needs to say, "X villain is better. Wasn't such a mama's boy, etc, etc." Usually, these people really aren't too concerned with the character, but just annoyed with said character's popularity, and feel like shitting all over the fans' parade for it.

 

[Flare]

Maybe it's just because I love the guy, but I would absolutely frickin' love to learn some more of his past. I think everyone knows it was a stressful thing for him, and he didn't get a lot of love, but I would like to know a few more details. I don't have to know everything, but some extra notes, or even scenes, would be amazing.

I had in my head somewhere that Sephiroth knew Gast until he was 8, and that's when Gast left; is that false then? Also probably just an assumption on my part, but when Sephiroth makes a quote in Nibelheim about wondering why Gast left, I always thought that meant Gast might've shown him what could've been fatherly love during the time he was there. Gast might've been the closest thing Sephiroth had to a father, even if it was for only a short time. I have memories from when I was 3 on up through my childhood, so if Sephiroth knew Gast even for only the first 6 years of his life, it's very possible he has a few good/strong memories of that time.

But then again, the whole Gast being fatherly is probably just in my head too. Maybe I just want to believe that someone cared for Sephiroth at one point when he was a child.

I wouldn't mind of that's what really happened though.

 

[hleV]

Honestly? Sephiroth looks cooler as a character when we don't get to see his childhood and how he grew up to become what he is. While I understand the curiosity, I believe it's better to leave Sephiroth's past out, unless it's just small-yet-cool details about him.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The entire mythos of Sephiroth's character is that everyone knows he's terrifying, but why they think that is never specifically mentioned (until Nebilheim pops up). He's supposed to be this larger then life character that's built up in the player's head until they get to Northern Crater.

 

[Flare]

Well that is true Obsidian; All you really hear about him is how strong he is from Cloud, how cold he was from Tifa, and that he's now rampaging and dangerous as all hell, so that makes people terrified of him.
However, anyone who plays CC gets a different feeling about him after that, because you see that he was human at one point (by human I more or less mean who he was as a person).

I'm thinking the Remake will possibly include some stuff from CC. It makes sense that Cloud wouldn't know anything about Sephiroth, so he's very much larger than life because of his status, but snippets of info about who he really was would be nice to see, sort of like extra content. It's not waved ion your face in the main storyline, but perhaps if you're keen enough you'd find some info here and there in the world.

 

[Starling]

I keep saying that there are some interesting ideas canon either can't or won't elaborate on, and how those are the kinds of idea that can be a lot of fun to explore in fanfiction. Why wait for canon to maybe shed light on something when you can take what you know, sprinkle some headcanon in there and make an engaging story that could believably fit into canon? You can even play around with given information a bit, like offsetting a few dates to get events to fit within a better age range or to give more time for certain characters to know each-other, but that's getting more into AUs.

 

[OneThousandCuts]

Well that is true Obsidian; All you really hear about him is how strong he is from Cloud, how cold he was from Tifa, and that he's now rampaging and dangerous as all hell, so that makes people terrified of him.
However, anyone who plays CC gets a different feeling about him after that, because you see that he was human at one point (by human I more or less mean who he was as a person).

Yes and no. You do find out more in a kind of second hand manner if you make sure to get Vincent's final limit break, because that requires you to talk to Lucrecia, who then reveals the story behind Sephiroth's 'creation', and how she was basically never allowed to hold him as a baby.

That's a good bit of general context right there about what his childhood was probably like--something that ranges anywhere from moderately abusive to completely hellish.

I won't lie, though...If more about Sephiroth does get included in the Remake, you'll hear no complaints out of me.

I keep saying that there are some interesting ideas canon either can't or won't elaborate on, and how those are the kinds of idea that can be a lot of fun to explore in fanfiction.

Hehehe...I'm probably eventually going to get told to stop it with the self-advertising, but I wrote one of those. The basic prompt I gave myself was, "What would it look like if Sephiroth pulled out the stops and used the full extent of his power?" The fic I wrote takes place post-DoC, and assumes that Omega weakened the Planet enough that Sephiroth is able to regroup within the lifestream once more, even to the point where he's able to recapture the early memories he'd previously forsaken to keep himself from dissolving.

Geostigma has returned with a vengeance, people and allies are dropping left and right...but for some reason, the only 'Remnant' that has appeared is a small, apparently harmless child. The W.R.O discovers him wandering along a highway after a certain unfortunate event. A little boy who's particularly terrified of angry adults, is extraordinarily intelligent, inquisitive, and mischievous, and of course, constantly cries out for his mother.

Naturally, everyone is torn between whether to care for the child as a child, or to treat him as the threat truly he poses as a Sephiroth Remnant. What are they supposed to do when all of the answers are, in one way or another, wrong?

 

[Clement Rage]

Sephiroth wasn't preoccupied with his parents until he saw that Makonoid and started wondering if he'd been grown in a vat the same way.

 

[OneThousandCuts]

Sephiroth wasn't preoccupied with his parents until he saw that Makonoid and started wondering if he'd been grown in a vat the same way.

Maybe not explicitly...

Urgh...someone help me out here. There was that one part in CC, where, just bit before Nibelheim, Zack can't get in touch with Sephiroth because he's busy researching something.

"Was I created this way too?" seems like a really huge leap for something that hadn't been on his mind prior...Why would he even think that if something hadn't already gotten him to start questioning it?

 

[Mayo Master]

Urgh...someone help me out here. There was that one part in CC, where, just bit before Nibelheim, Zack can't get in touch with Sephiroth because he's busy researching something.

Checking CC script...
There are 2 elements which may point this way:
- First at the beginning of Chapter 6 (before Zack meets Cloud on the mission at Modeoheim), Zack cannot get in touch with Sephiroth for unknown reasons
- At the end of Chapter 7, Sephiroth appears (in Junon) and mentions he's been doing some research at Modeoheim (after Zack's mission there) - namely stating that Hollander's equipment was gone.

Hope that helps

 

[OneThousandCuts]

Thanks Mayo. I believe that's what I was thinking of.

At any rate, we have a pre-Nibelheim event where it can be said or at least theorized that Sephiroth had isolated himself for several days for the sake of research.

I remember playing that part, and thinking, "So, Nibelheim was just the worst of what may have already been a bad habit."

How long Sephiroth had been concerned about and looking for where/ who he came from is still questionable, but I truly believe that Nibelheim is just where the bottle burst, so to speak, and that it is not outside the bounds of canon to say that it might have been filling for some time.

 

[Flare]

Does Lucrecia say that much in the original game? I thought she just said that he's her son and that she wanted to know if he was still alive. I think it's only in DoC that she states that she never even got to hold him. Not sure if they'll have flashbacks from her to show that stuff in the remake.

I like to develop my own ideas, sure, but I'd still like a bit more canon to help me out, so to say. I've read a lot of fanfics about Sephiroth growing up, and I haven't found one that I ever agreed with. My idea was that he wasn't put through quite as much hell and some people believes, but rather he was more isolated and trained more than raised as a child. I'm sure he went through tests and stuff, but I never thought it was to the extreme that some fanfics put out there.

 

[OneThousandCuts]

It was. I looked up a play-through of that part to be 100% certain. Wouldn't want to go spouting off a bunch of total nonsense. Only partial nonsense from me, I swear!

As for how difficult Sephiroth's childhood was or wasn't, I think we have to agree to disagree. I'm definitely biased because of certain personal reasons, so it's all good.

 

[Starling]

I always figured the abuse in Sephiroth's childhood was largely in the form of emotional neglect.

 

[jazzflower92]

I kind of see Sephiroth being raised in a similar way to X-23, being treated as a weapon without any real emotional connection. I don't think his upbringing was as hellish as the Tsviets it certainly would be unpleasant since Hojo would be in charge of his wellbeing.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/ComicBook/X23?from=Main.X-23

 

[OneThousandCuts]

I always figured the abuse in Sephiroth's childhood was largely in the form of emotional neglect.

In all honesty, this is probably the most valid assumption. Hojo's too much of a fan of head games, though, so in my opinion, it was probably a combo of psychological abuse and emotional neglect.

Because Sephiroth was ultimately one of Shinra's prized 'trophies', I can see where one might make the argument against a physically violent upbringing.

 

[Roger]

The only thing we hear him say about his childhood is "I knew I wasn't like the other children.", which only gives us the idea that there were other children. I highly doubt Sephiroth grew up in Hojo's lab. His childhood (as far back as Sephiroth can remember) probably wasn't different from Cissnei or anyone else that was raised inside Shinra, though he was probably pushed even harder then the rest.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Having seen Genesis degradation, and presumably knowing about Angeal's, Sephiroth must at least be wondering whether the same thing will happen to him. He's intelligent. It must surely have seemed odd to him that, with so few SOLDIERs making first class, both Angeal and Genesis came from the same tiny village. What are the odds? Maybe there's something in the water? Maybe in the apples? Maybe something more sinister? Why did Shinra feel the need to obliterate the entire village?

By halfway through Crisis Core he is well aware that Genesis and Angeal are "monsters" - they have wings and they are physically degrading. They are his only peers in terms of fighting power, so naturally he wonders if he will suffer the same fate. On the other hand, the fact that a "normal" human being like Zack was able to make first class suggests that you don't have to be a monster in order to reach the top. So Sephiroth isn't sure. He knows he has no connection with Hollander. So maybe he's a monster, or maybe he isn't. Asking Hojo is a non-starter. The Turks might know, but they would never tell him. They might even figure out a way to "dispose" of him if he starts asking questions; after all, tseng was sent to Modeoheim to kill Angeal. What about Lazard; what does Lazard know? Whom can he trust? How many secrets have been kept from him? Who knows the truth about who and what he really is?

When you're a super-powered soldier and you start to realize that everybody around you may have been lying to you your entire life, that would be enough to drive anyone crazy, i think.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The only thing we hear him say about his childhood is "I knew I wasn't like the other children.", which only gives us the idea that there were other children. I highly doubt Sephiroth grew up in Hojo's lab. His childhood (as far back as Sephiroth can remember) probably wasn't different from Cissnei or anyone else that was raised inside Shinra, though he was probably pushed even harder then the rest.

Sorry for double post.

When Sephiroth visits Nibelheim, he realizes he's been there before. Remember him saying he doesn't know what having a home town feels like? If in the course of his researches he comes to realize that Nibelheim is actually his home town, and that he spent his early childhood there (to have some memory of the landscape, he must have been around 4-5 when he left) that would undoubtedly aggravate his rage against the "hometown" that betrayed him.

Alternatively, it could be that the reason the landscape looks familiar to him is because Jenova knows it.

 

[Flare]

The only thing we hear him say about his childhood is "I knew I wasn't like the other children.", which only gives us the idea that there were other children. I highly doubt Sephiroth grew up in Hojo's lab. His childhood (as far back as Sephiroth can remember) probably wasn't different from Cissnei or anyone else that was raised inside Shinra, though he was probably pushed even harder then the rest.

This is, more or less, what I think of how Sephiroth grew up. He was probably trained a lot and not given much, if any, care that he should've had as a child. I mean, other than Angeal and Genesis, he doesn't have anyone else caring for him like that.

I don't think he was locked up in labs, put through terrible testing, and raised similarly to Deepground, as some fanfics have suggested.

 

[Starling]

Fanfics like to overdramatize stuff sometimes. I'm pretty sure Hollander said Angeal wasn't degrading, by the way.