My Bugenhagen/Gast Theory

[Elysianist]

Ok so I haven't seen this mentioned very much so I came up with this theory:
So here's some stuff that is already known:
Cait Sith tells the party that Bugenhagen was once a ShinRa employee.
Vincent also mentions that the machinery found in Cosmo Canyon was a gift from Professor Gast.
Bugenhagen acquired this machinery after Gast left the Jenova project and travelled the planet to gain more knowledge on the Ancients.
After leaving ShinRa, Bugenhagen settles in Cosmo Canyon, it is here that Bugenhagen conducts his research on planetary life.

My theory:
It is possible that Gast knew of Bugenhagen from the ShinRa company, because it's likely that Bugenhagen was an avid researcher like Gast. Possibly even Gast inspiration to become a researcher/scientist.
This may explain why Gast was so generous in giving Bugenhagen all of that advanced equipment. Gast most likely also needed to talk to someone he could trust, while on the run from ShinRa.
It's possible that Bugenhagen chose Cosmo Canyon because of its ability to host a good celestial observation area.


Not sure how much validity this theory holds, lemme know what you think.


EDIT: Added something else, thanks Gym Leader Devil
[FONT=#FFFFFF]"[ μ ] – εуλ 1959 ShinRa Manufacturing Works (later the ShinRa Company) discovers mako energy."

Could Bugenhagen's research on the Lifestream have influenced this? :o
Or this was possibly discovered long after Bugenhagen's time in ShinRa, but could've still been influenced by Bugenhagen's findings.
[/FONT]

 

[Lex]

Well I'm not entirely sure there's information that can disprove that either, so I'd say it's all a fair guess.

 

[Elysianist]

Thanks I'd love to hear peoples opinions on this.
Also, is this the right area to have the thread in?

 

[Octo]

I don't think its the wrong area anyway, it could be better suited to the FFVII section but its not that big a deal

Anyway, I think its very possible that they could have known each other in some capacity. However Bugenhagen was 129 in FFVII, and so I doubt he'd actually worked for Shinra for a good 60ish years, whereas Gast was probably in his 40s/50's so yeah, maybe he had access to some of Bugens old research or something.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Bugenhagen HAD been a researcher with ShinRa at one point, IIRC, and he left quite some time ago.
Regardless, Bugen was a scientist. He had to have published. Gast could have learned of him that way.

 

[Elysianist]

Some good points
I was thinking that because of his age, and potentially being in ShinRa many many years before Gast, that maybe the theory that he was Gast's inspiration held more ground. It's possible that also Gast learned about him moving to Cosmo Canyon after leaving ShinRa to study the planet.

- T

 

[Gym Leader Devil]

If you think about it, Bugenhagen and Gast were working different parts of the same field, or at least thought they were. Bugen's planetary life research is naturally heavily based on research of the Lifestream. Gast thought he was researching the Cetra during the Jenova project, what with it being meant to produce humans with the powers of the aforementioned itinerant beings And the Cetras' big thing was speaking with, altering the flow of, and cultivating the Lifestream. I wouldn't be surprised to hear that Gast had read a lot of Bugen's research papers at some point in the process, even if only to get a feel for what his experiments' results might allow for. Too bad the J-project itself was so heavily classified/Bugenhagen wasn't there to see Gast's preserved "Ancient" or I'm sure he could have told him Cetra don't normally have eyes on their bewbs and tentacles and such

 

[Elysianist]

@Gym Leader Devil

Good points
You've sparked something else I forgot about:

"[ μ ] – εуλ 1959 ShinRa Manufacturing Works (later the ShinRa Company) discovers mako energy."

Could Bugenhagen's research on the Lifestream have influenced this? :o
Or this was possibly discovered long after Bugenhagen's time in ShinRa, but could've still been influenced by Bugenhagen's findings.


In regards to Jenova's form (of what we see it at Nibelheim):
Ifalna says that it took the form of the Cetra's dead relatives, and the few remaining Cetra grouped together and managed to defeat and seal it away.

I believe that during this fight, Jenova had taken a female form, but I reckon Jenova was stuggling, maybe trying to change its form to a monster of some kind, but before it could change fully it was sealed by the Cetra. This may explain the eye bewb and wing etc lolz

But that's just my theory, I'm sure there's probs better ones

 

[S and G]

Right, sorry to have to step in here, but there are some glaring pieces of info that people are not using to put things together on this topic. I actually have thought about this many times before and have an answer. It based on logic and a few age assumptions.

Ok, so Shinra Electric Power was founded in 1959, 48 years before FF7 takes place (2007). President Shinra founded the Manufacturing Works. What age do you reckon he was in FF7? 60? 70? Let's go with 70.

That means he was born around 1935-1940. Assuming he established the MW in his late teens at the earliest, we're talking around 1953 at the very earliest. So, the earliest Bugenhagen could have worked for Shinra is 1953.

Additionally, Red XIII is 48 in FF7 which means he was born in 1959 too. He is said to be around 15 or 16 in his own years which means he ages approx 3 times slower than humans. His parents died when he was a cub. Assuming cub age is approx 0-5, he would have been as old as 15 when Seto died. This means roughly around 1975. Bugenhagen knew Seto and Red's mother and was already an established part of Cosmo Canyon by that time. This gives you an approximate 20 year window in which Bugenhagen could have worked at Shinra (1953-1955 to 1973-1975).

You reckon Gast was 40-50 when he died? He died shortly after Aerith's birth in 1985. So the earliest Gast was born was approximately 1935. Given our earlier assumptions of MW starting in 1953 at the earliest, it is not impossible that Gast was also on the payroll then.

Sephiroth was born approx 30 years before FF7, 1975-1980. Gast was definitely in charge then. This means Gast left Shinra between 1980 and 1985. Gast was also in charge of Project Jenova G which pre-dated Sephiroth by about 5 years. This means Gast was definitely working with Shinra between 1970 and 1975. We also know that Gast got his senior position after the death of Grimoire which suggests he was already within the department (ie sometime during the 1960s).

So, based on these windows, you can see that there is quite a lot to play with. Not only is it highly probable that Gast knew of Bugenhagen, it is perfectly cpnceivable that they worked together anytime between 1953 and 1975.

 

[Elysianist]

Awesome! Very well thought out. I really should've included some of those dates, thanks for posting The dates seem pretty plausible.

Do you reckon Bugenhagen possibly acted as a role model to Gast?

P.S. I checked out your novelisation of FFVII too, it's brilliant. Are you thinking of finishing it? I would buy it

 

[S and G]

I agree with the discussions above that the work of Gast and Bugenhagen are related. Bugenhagen is an avid researcher of the way the Planet works. If Grimoire is shown in DC finding out about the lives of the Cetra and their way with the Planet from the Chronicles of Yore, the chances of Bugenhagen not being familiar with these things are slim. It quite simply cannot be determined if Bugenhagen's work led to the discovery of Mako energy or if the research on the Lifestream led to Bugenhagen's work. For Bugenhagen's age and his wisdom, it would make perfect sense either way. I like to think it was the former and that his reason for quitting Shinra was that he realised he had opened Pandora's Box and was hurting the Planet. The histories of the Science Dept given in both DC and CC reveal that Shinra had an interest in the Cetra prior to the discovery of Jenova and that the initial interest may directly have been linked to their desire to produce cheaper ways of obtaining Mako. The study of the Lifestream (Bugenhagen) and the study of the Cetra (Gast) are very closely linked which means that Gast's work would have been strongly influenced by Bugenhagen's. The fact that one of the first things Gast does upon quitting Shinra is to travel to/spend some time at Cosmo Canyon and present Bugenhagen with a gift shows that (to me anyway) either they were close or Gast thought very highly of him. I hope that answers your question.

Also, thank you for the compliment on my novel. I have spent the last 12 months traveling around the world and have done virtually no work on it. Getting it finished probably will never happen unless I get funding and that can only come through donations rather than sales due to copyright issues.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I love it when you come out from the shadows and post, Mo. Your posts are always so interesting to read.

 

[Elysianist]

That was an interesting read, thanks. I like the theory that he left after discovering he'd opened Pandora's box.

Cheers

 

[S and G]

I love it when you come out from the shadows and post, Mo. Your posts are always so interesting to read.

HA! Cheers, LA. I meant to PM you yesterday to ask how you were doing but it slipped from my mind. I have returned to the UK from my travels so, depending on the standard of topics, I may be posting more often.

Also, I meant to point out a couple of other things to consider about Bugenhagen. Reeve (Cait Sith) points out that Bugenhagen was an ex-Shinra employee. Doubt this would have come up if Bugenhagen was a nobody so I would expect he was high up if not in charge of the Science Dept at some point. Unless he was only an employee until the discovery of Mako, then washed his hands of it, in which case the Science Dept probably didn't exist during the Manufacturing Works days. Unless his role was part of experimenting with Mako and the weapons the company was producing. And by weapons and Mako, I don't mean Mako guns, I mean the effects Materia has on weapons which, as it would seem by the time of FF7, is pretty significant. But, I digress...

One other thing to consider is that Vincent at no point shows any sign of recognising Bugenhagen. As a Turk, surely you would know the important staff or people that would hold influence. Vincent is shot by Hojo during Project Jenova S which occurred around or shortly after 1975. Assuming he had been with the company a couple of years by then, it also backs up my theory that Bugenhagen had left the company before then.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You think like a historian. And I mean that as a compliment.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

I think part of the difficulty is; 1. The lack of real information on how the FFVII world and history works, and 2. How compressed everything else. The Shinra company is less than 50 years old, and yet the entire FFVII world revolves around it in every way. There was no 'before' or even 'early years'. All any of the fans know is

1. SHINRA IS FOUNDED
2. ???????
3. SHINRA RULES THE PLANET
4. PROFIT

 

[Octo]

All any of the fans know is:

1: SHINRA DEVELOP SPACE TRAVEL ON SPIRA
2: SHINRA LAND ON GAIA
3: FORGET ABOUT SPACE TRAVEL AND SPIRA ENTIRELY THOUGH STRANGELY THE SHINRA SURNAME SURVIVES FOR MANY MANY YEARS
4: ?????????
5. SHINRA IS FOUNDED
6. ???????
7. SHINRA RULES THE PLANET
8. PROFIT

Something like that?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The Shinra company is less than 50 years old, and yet the entire FFVII world revolves around it in every way. There was no 'before' or even 'early years'.

How old are Google, Facebook, youtube, and Microsoft?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

But the world doesn't revolve around Google, Facebook, youtube, and Microsoft, and it's very visible what the world, and life, was like beforehand. In the world of FFVII, it seems that the entire modern era didn't exist before Shinra. In the real world, no one event, person, or corporation is responsible for the modern era (let's say the modern era being say, 1900 onwards) and what we see now and continue to see is a culmination of various nations, wars, events, people, corporations, and even intangibles like natural disasters and trends.

The FFVII world is nothing like that. It all begins and ends with Shinra, and nothing else. Even Wutai's role on the world stage continually gets shafted at every opportunity for it to be fleshed out.

 

[S and G]

You think like a historian. And I mean that as a compliment.

That is actually my job believe it or not.

And MOG, I get what you are saying but you seem to have missed out a few things which I will so lovingly bring to the class.

1. The Cetra occupied the Planet before humans and, with their ability to communicate with it, I imagine they did ok on the energy front.
2. Humans appeared and, like what ancient humans would have been like on Earth, managed to get their energy from fire, eventually after many centuries turning to coal.
3. Shinra MW discovers Mako energy.
4. Shinra utilises this energy as a new and cheap resource, drowning out its energy competitors. Wutai and rural towns are either slow to adopt it or don't want it at all.
5. The rural towns have public councils (although no mention of Government) whereas Wutai has a pyramid military-like Imperial system.
6. In an attempt to reduce costs, Shinra experiment with what they believe to be a Cetra.
7. The reaction between the 'Cetran' cells and humans with Mako as a catalyst reveal superhuman capabilities. As well as a background in weapons, the company can now create a powerful army.
8. Shinra cntinue to persuade the people of the Planet to turn to Mako use.
9. Those who oppose are eventually crushed
10. Shinra are the sole providers of cheap global energy and have military dominance.
11. Shinra Inc. becomes a dictatorship. Many people sacrifice councils in exchange for cheap energy. Those who oppose are not strong enough to stand against them.
12. Realisations are made that Mako extractions are harming the Planet. The general population chose to turn a blind eye.
13. Meteorfall ends Mako extraction.
14. On a quest to discover new sources of energy, oil is discovered.

And the Planet isn't that big a place to be fair. But your argument of no system in place before Shinra is false. Both Corel and Midgar are shown to have had a mayor. I agree that it is not really elaborated on, though, but whether or not a collection of rural councils or a global government existed, Shinra took power and, as such, is a dictatorship.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

You are right, of course, Mog. The game is not what one might call 'historically realistic'. Everything before Shinra is sketched in very cursorily, if at all - because the game-makers weren't interested in devoting time to that sort of world-building, I guess. In my view,the point they wanted to make is that both mako as a resource and Shinra as an organisation are tempting, but ultimately destructive. So we see the remains of Old Junon, and we see how the original towns of Midgar have been turned into a lightless slum; we see that everybody has forgotten what their religion used to be, and forgotten about the existence of the Temple of the Ancients and the "Forgotten" Capital; and we see the same process beginning to happen in Wutai, as their cultural traditions are turned into meaningless tourist attractions. This is a world living entirely in the now, untroubled by memories of their history and unconcerned about the future because Shinra will take care of it. The past has been forgotten; that's why we don't see it. That's what also makes this world a gift to fanfic writers like me who like to explore those empty spaces and fill them with something of our own design.

edited to add: And the theme of memory, forgetfulness and identity is central to the characterisation of the protagonist.

 

[Ryushikaze]

I wouldn't say the FF7 tech level went from coal straight to Mako energy- there is evidence that research into gas, oil, and jet fuel existed, as is mentioned briefly in CoB- but yes, their technology leapt from Wild West tech levels to 1950s Pie in the sky dream (Seriously, ShinRa sells what are in essence Nuclear powered cars) practically overnight.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

The entire planet having nothing but rural towns isn't really a system. What entity purchased Shibras weapons back in the day? Dirt farmers?

 

[S and G]

The entire planet having nothing but rural towns isn't really a system. What entity purchased Shibras weapons back in the day? Dirt farmers?

I didn't say it was a system. I agree with you that none of it makes sense because there is never any elaboration on the past civilisation. And the weapons were obviously designed for the bandits, dumbass

 

[Cat Rage Room]

no need to call names. Its just that weapons companies usually sell in bulk to entities rather than individuals.