My take on why Rinoa is Ultimecia and what to make of the ending

[OlderSquall]

Ultimecia is Rinoa

Below I will do what I can to support my argument that Rinoa is or will become Ultimecia. I am not saying I am 100% correct but I think this hypothesis is highly plausible and would make a lot of sense in putting together the story. Enjoy.

Artemesia's life: https://theoppositeofamoth.blogspot....reme-love.html

Rinoa is scared of what she will become if she is alone, says to Squall if she becomes evil he has to pierce her heart

Squall dies when Edea throws the magic spears at him/or another circumstance and Rinoa loses her mind and becomes Ultimecia obsessed with compressing time to be with her love once again/or at the least so that she can achieve again the moment of happiness of being in love gave her and then experience it as every moment, but using the Griever guardian so many times she loses her memory of him, of her friends, of her life and she becomes no more than a tyrant, a tragic embodiment of evil that has perpetual amnesia, not understanding why she has to compress time other than to have power, losing her only purpose of doing so: to be with her beloved/feel that feeling she had of being in love and happy once again. As a result, she ends up hating everyone, her deepest, darkest, most negative emotions getting the better of her without her positive memories to counteract them.

Rinoa is Ultimecia: junctioned Griever and only knew of it because Squall gave her a ring with Griever on it in her early years, she looks like her, and flashes of Ultimecia went to her at the beginning and the end of the story, Rinoa's wings go from white to black and Squall cries because he realizes that Rinoa will become Ultimecia, that she will inevitably turn evil, the reference to dancing (both of them to Squall), how the final form of Ultimecia attaches herself to what looks like an aging Rinoa, both know Apocalypse, when defeated a bunch of white feathers come out (Rinoa has white feathers), as Rinoa she alluded to something similar to time compression in which she always and only wanted to have Squall in her life, Ultimecia has her home/fortress right by the meadow of flowers/plants that Squall and Rinoa promised to meet at, her past self had that memory before using Griever so much that she forgot why she was there, she was a slave to her usage of magic that she lost her memories, her childhood memories, her feelings, her emotions, and even her purpose: to be reunited with her beloved again. Tragic. Artemisia lost her beloved and grieved over his loss for 2 years until death claimed her too.

In a potentially alternative timeline Rinoa via magic or other means ends up saving Squall's life, he ends up killing Ultimecia who was the alternate future version of Rinoa thus stopping Rinoa from ever becoming Ultimecia, and thus fulfilling his promise to her that if she became evil that he would pierce her heart, Rinoa pulls him out of time compression and saves his life through her magic at the end which is how the pink flowers/leaves and the sky becomes clear, their deaths are averted and they live happily ever after.

Not too shabby. In a way the premise of not being able to change the past is true and at the same time is ambiguous because both characters in their own way altered their own potential trajectories. In many ways, the story leaves us hanging about if one can actually change the past or alter their destiny. It also makes us question what is real since some folks think Squall actually died early on in the game and the ending is but an idealistic dream.

I think the ending was legit and that Rinoa saved Squall's life, thus preserving his present and future and Squall being alive and ending the negative future version of Rinoa preserved her present and future as well. They both needed each other and saved each other's lives.

Below I continue to go down quite a dark thought process that could explain things further.

However, one could argue that Rinoa needed Squall more because without him she would inevitably descend into madness, grief, anguish, and insanity by becoming Ultimecia. However, one can debate if one can truly alter destiny because inevitably Squall would die, Rinoa would outlive him but would she have enough time, and great loving memories of him to not descend into chaos? Would she inevitably become Ultimecia anyways? Or is it an infinite loop and a firm trajectory that cannot be altered no matter how hard anyone tries? Was Rinoa always meant to become Ultimecia and was Squall always meant to die before Rinoa thus triggering her descent into evil and chaos? Rinoa was so driven by grief, by loss, by wanting to be with her beloved for eternity that she desired for time to compress but in doing so she lost everything, including her own sanity, and ability to recall virtually any of her memories and past with Squall. She loved him so much that she gave up everything, including herself and her very memories of them together to be with him again. Again, the theme of tragedy and star-crossed lovers are coming to mind. A space opera version of Romeo and Juliet.

It adds another layer of meaning and sadness to the English and Japanese versions of her last words.

English: "Reflect on your...childhood...your sensation...your words...your emotions.......Time...it will not wait...no matter...how hard you hold on...it escapes you...and......."

Japanese: "Have you remembered something?
Something from your childhood
A sensation
The words from back then
The emotions from back then
As you become an adult
You leave something behind, throw something away
Time will not wait for you
Even if you cling to it
It slips away the instant you open your hands
And…”

I think she is saying this more so to herself, but to the characters and to Rinoa to some degree. To me it all makes sense, she is finally coming to her senses of who she was, the memories and feelings that she lost. Her desire to change the past was futile and she ended up leaving her old self behind, she threw her old self, her childhood, her memories, her emotions, and her words away. Everything slipped away from her no matter how hard she gripped. And serves as a cautionary tale to her younger self Rinoa to cherish her youth, her memories, her good times, and that you cannot change the past but you can cherish it and be content with the love, friendships, and memories that you made along the way. Sadly, it seems that Rinoa so distraught with grief does not heed her older self's lessons to her. Again, tragedy after tragedy.

Here is a clip of Mobius Final Fantasy. Watch the iconic pose that Ultimecia makes that Rinoa made in the early part of FF8 with Squall. Uncanny.

I appreciate you all reading this. Please let me know your thoughts on this. Thank you so much.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Rino's is not Ultimecia and this has literally been debunked over and over, including by Kitase himself.

This is "Vincent is Sephiroth's true Daddy" and "Jenova is the true mastermind" levels of pernicious misinfo.

Ultimecia is the Sorceress from the future who inadvertantly causes the time loop that creates SeeD, by motivating Edea to create the organization that kills her, during the ending of FFVIII. Ultimecia is born in the future era which is why she needs the Junction Machine to possess a Witch from that era since she doesn't exist during it. Otherwise... She'd just utilize herself and not Adel. Ultimecia's experience was corrupted due to being persecuted during that future era as a Witch. Rinoa and Ultimecia are from two different eras hundreds of years apart, them being the same doesn't make sense given Witches are mortal.

Squall isn't dead either.

 

[OlderSquall]

Rino's is not Ultimecia and this has literally been debunked over and over, including by Kitase himself.

This is "Vincent is Sephiroth's true Daddy" and "Jenova is the true mastermind" levels of pernicious misinfo.

Ultimecia is the Sorceress from the future who inadvertantly causes the time loop that creates SeeD, by motivating Edea to create the organization that kills her, during the ending of FFVIII. Ultimecia is born in the future era which is why she needs the Junction Machine to possess a Witch from that era since she doesn't exist during it. Otherwise... She'd just utilize herself and not Adel. Ultimecia's experience was corrupted due to being persecuted during that future era as a Witch. Rinoa and Ultimecia are from two different eras hundreds of years apart, them being the same doesn't make sense given Witches are mortal.

Squall isn't dead either.

Witches are immortal as long as they hold onto their power, they die when they hand over the power to someone else. I am not saying I am 100% correct, I am simply stating that there are a lot of connections and coincidences that make things a little too uncanny. Perhaps the creative team is pulling our leg by saying that there is no connection because of the fact that there are way too many things that make the Rinoa is Ultimecia hypothesis plausible. There are in my eyes way too many things that if there was no connection at all wouldn’t make any sense at all. I understand folks who do not believe or see the connection. After all, they’re entitled to their opinions and this game is highly interpretive. I do not think that Squall died at the hands of Edea either for the record.

 

[Nanaki Skywalker]

I have called bullshit on this particular theory from the start. The most blatant evidence that I found to debunk this is the fact that Ultimecia made multiple attempts on Rinoa's life throughout the course of the game, up to and including the final battle. If this theory were true, then I highly doubt Ultimecia would be going out of her way to kill Rinoa, as that would be tantamount to retroactive suicide. In fact, she would be going out of her way to do the exact opposite, as Rinoa would clearly be more valuable to her alive than dead.

And even if Rinoa became Ultimecia as a result of hundreds of years of not being able to find a successor for her powers, that too is debunked by the fact that Ultimecia's first known attempt on Rinoa's life happened before Rinoa became a Sorceress.

As for the "Squall is dead" rumor, I initially thought that referred to him getting lost in the ending and not Edea throwing that ice spear at his chest. And even then, I thought the theory was bullshit.

 

[OlderSquall]

I have called bullshit on this particular theory from the start. The most blatant evidence that I found to debunk this is the fact that Ultimecia made multiple attempts on Rinoa's life throughout the course of the game, up to and including the final battle. If this theory were true, then I highly doubt Ultimecia would be going out of her way to kill Rinoa, as that would be tantamount to retroactive suicide. In fact, she would be going out of her way to do the exact opposite, as Rinoa would clearly be more valuable to her alive than dead.

And even if Rinoa became Ultimecia as a result of hundreds of years of not being able to find a successor for her powers, that too is debunked by the fact that Ultimecia's first known attempt on Rinoa's life happened before Rinoa became a Sorceress.

As for the "Squall is dead" rumor, I initially thought that referred to him getting lost in the ending and not Edea throwing that ice spear at his chest. And even then, I thought the theory was bullshit.

I can see why you have that view point. The way I rationalize it I guess is that when you use guardian forces extensively over time you lose your ability to remember things. The future version of Rinoa (Ultimecia) damaged her brain so badly from using guardian forces for so long that she had no recall of Squall, Seifer or even her younger self.

 

[LNK]

Perhaps the creative team is pulling our leg by saying that there is no connection because of the fact that there are way too many things that make the Rinoa is Ultimecia hypothesis plausible.

That could be true. Where would that line of thinking end though?

 

[Lestat]

It sounds like too many Ifs buts and maybes to be given any real weight.

 

[OlderSquall]

That could be true. Where would that line of thinking end though?

Hmm, either for some sort of reveal down the line, a new game or perhaps they don’t want to reveal it for now because the reality of Rinoa turning into Ultimecia would be too dark or too tragic to even think of much less admit.

 

[OlderSquall]

It sounds like too many Ifs buts and maybes to be given any real weight.

I know there is a bit of a stretch in some areas but there are way too many connections to just brush off and not see it as potentially plausible. Especially Ultimecia having Griever junctioned before the team came after her, and we know that Squall only showed and told about Griever to one person, Rinoa. Even Ultimecia‘s outfit with the fur collar is similar to Squall‘s but it’s black. We know Rinoa emulated things that Squall did In her early years.

 

[LNK]

Hmm, either for some sort of reveal down the line, a new game or perhaps they don’t want to reveal it for now because the reality of Rinoa turning into Ultimecia would be too dark or too tragic to even think of much less admit.

Yeah, but the same could be said about any theory people have, that's supported by evidence. At the end of the day, wouldn't it be better to take what the creator of the game says about what is/isn't canon to the story?

 

[OlderSquall]

Yeah, but the same could be said about any theory people have, that's supported by evidence. At the end of the day, wouldn't it be better to take what the creator of the game says about what is/isn't canon to the story?

Perhaps so, I question a lot of things. I am too damn curious about certain things and I have decent pattern recognition so it makes me ask questions and I have a high curiosity to know certain things and to not leave any stone unturned.

 

[LNK]

I can see that. I'm the same way sometimes. But, from my short time on here, I don't know if this is the right forum for theories that contradict what is/isn't canon. Especially if the creators of the games, have debunked theories

 

[OlderSquall]

I can see that. I'm the same way sometimes. But, from my short time on here, I don't know if this is the right forum for theories that contradict what is/isn't canon. Especially if the creators of the games, have debunked theories

That’s fair. What other forums would you suggest then? Thanks very much.

 

[LNK]

That’s fair. What other forums would you suggest then? Thanks very much.

That I'm not sure. There's a few people who have been on here for over a decade. They might have a better idea. My guess is places like reddit or gamefaqs? @Makoeyes987 @Ite @ForceStealer

 

[OlderSquall]

That I'm not sure. There's a few people who have been on here for over a decade. They might have a better idea. My guess is places like reddit or gamefaqs? @Makoeyes987 @Ite @ForceStealer

Understood. I was on Gamefaqs I think and they ripped me a new one for daring to discuss it lol.

 

[OlderSquall]

Another item that I found that also makes you wonder is the following YouTube comment I found:


I would like to point out something that I hardly see online. Please search on Wikipedia the name Artemisia II of Caria. "She is renowned in history for her extraordinary grief at the death of her husband Mausolus." King Mausolus' symbol was a lion, as shown on his coinage and other artifacts (go to his wiki page and you will see pictures). So Artemisia (Ultimecia?), is famous for GRIEVING her husband who uses lion as his symbol, so much so that she built one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World (Mausoleum at Halicarnassus) to honor and remember him by. Coincidence?

 

[ForceStealer]

I mean discussing the theory as a hypothetical is fine with me (though it could probably just go in the main FF8 thread). I personally have always found this particular theory to be far more compelling (that is, fun) that the Squall Is Dead one, for instance. Allows for more fun character exploration than "it was all a dream" does.
But a simple argument as to whether it's canon or not isn't gonna be productive because it plainly isn't. But as long as the discussion is had with the understanding that it's a hypothetical story idea?

 

[OlderSquall]

I mean discussing the theory as a hypothetical is fine with me (though it could probably just go in the main FF8 thread). I personally have always found this particular theory to be far more compelling (that is, fun) that the Squall Is Dead one, for instance. Allows for more fun character exploration than "it was all a dream" does.
But a simple argument as to whether it's "canon" or not isn't gonna be productive because it plainly isn't. But as long as the discussion is had with the understanding that it's a hypothetical story idea?

I guess so, yes. I mean if I truly didn’t think the evidence was compelling I wouldn’t even be talking about it because what’s the point? However, I measure actions and evidence heavier than words, even if the words are from the creators or the team that made the game. It raises too many questions and to me it makes total sense as far as the story and why certain characters said and did what they did.

 

[Roundhouse]

I support this thread and theory.

/edit

But I also agree that it clearly isn't canon.

 

[OlderSquall]

I support this thread and theory.

/edit

But I also agree that it clearly isn't canon.

Thanks and I understand. Squall even said that even if she became the world’s enemy he would be her knight. What if he died and turned into Griever to be next to her and having junctioned Griever for so long she lost all memory of him. In Dissidia FF when Squall confronts Ultimecia he told her that he was there to fulfill his promise and she asked him to “dance.” Coincidence? I don’t think so but I get that it’s a hypothesis.

 

[Roundhouse]

Honestly, even when a theory is disproven, it's interesting to discuss and think about alternative scenarios. Kitase, in the link Mako posted, even said that he found the Squall is dead theory really interesting.

 

[OlderSquall]

Honestly, even when a theory is disproven, it's interesting to discuss and think about alternative scenarios. Kitase, in the link Mako posted, even said that he found the Squall is dead theory really interesting.

Thanks very much. Interesting that Kitase was more interested in the Squall is dead concept than the Rinoa is Ultimecia one.

 

[OlderSquall]

And here is Ultimecia posing exactly like Rinoa

Here is a much clearer showing of her pose:

 

[Nanaki Skywalker]

"Rinoa is Ultimecia" is to Final Fantasy what Sheng Long is to Street Fighter.

 

[Roundhouse]

If that is indeed the case, you should be worried if there is some sort of FF8 remake or sequel:

'Fan appeal for the character affected later Capcom titles, with public requests for the inclusion of Sheng Long in an actual video game leading to the consideration of his inclusion in the The Movie video game and years later resulting in the appearance of Gouken as both a secret boss and playable character in Street Fighter IV. ' [wiki]