New Sephiroth Theory

Mariketsu

I Am the Darkness, I'm the Monster
AKA
Razael
Okay, this is something I been contemplating for months now and have managed to put together a theory, regarding Sephiroth as a villain.

Also, first off, I am NOT trying to make him out to be innocent or mindlessly absolve him of what happened, this is ONLY a theory, NOT a stupid fanfic-based assumption. Secondly, this in a manner of a realistic and psychological standpoint, so Ultimanias will be disregarded for the most part. Lastly, I will warn you, my memory on the original game is a tad shoddy, and I have no way of replaying it so forgive me if there are some misconceptions.

---------

Now then, this theory is meant to propose the question, what if Sephiroth as the villain we all know is not the way it seems?

For this, I wish to bring up 2 definitions:

Poltergeist- an entity that usually consists of purely negative energy, having been created by very negative emotions from a person who has suffered severe depression and/or stress. These entities have been known to be dark in terms of bearing no soul but only a consciousness and thrive on the negative energy the host continues to give off to remain in existence.

Personality Disorder- the point in which the mind suffers a severe breakdown from exposure to something that causes often severe psychological trauma, thust forcing the mind to "split" into two (or more) new personas with either being the real person as the original personality falls dormant.

As well, I would like to add that Sephiroth and his Will were often referred to separately.

Now, with this in mind, let's look at Crisis Core, the point in which Sephiroth began to lose his sanity... It became apparent through the game that Sephiroth was deeply bothered by why he felt so different all his life and was increasingly curious of his background as he grew older. This perhaps may have peaked during his time in Nibelheim, especially when Genesis eventually dropped disturbing information about his "mother" whom he referred to as a monster. This would also include the apparent fact that Sephiroth had been, tho vaguely, lied to about his mother, having been told "her name was Jenova and that she died when he was born". Ontop of all that, his seemingly apparent inner fear of being a monster himself, which would leave room for him to become disturbed and his sanity begin to unravel. In other words, being he had not known of any of this at a young age, it would only create deeper, psychological trauma in him. Then, after reading all of the partially flawed documents in the basement, he finally snaps and his sanity is lost, which also in includes the documents describing the experiment procedure he was part of (iirc).

I would think this would create a severe, psychological traumatization that he obviously mentally broke from, and herein, my theory lay: Perhaps this massive amount of trauma may have triggered a "split" in his personality, and began to do so as he wandered about Nibelheim, causing the destruction he was known for. I also surmise, that his death, at Cloud's hands may have eventually made way for something else to be born... herein lay the second part of my theory: If a mental break as massive as his creates a phenomenal amount of cast-off negative energy (with the elements of his strength in it), at the time his mind would've perhaps partly split in 2, theoretically, I believe this would create an extension of a secondary personality...

In other words, his Will, born out of the psychological trauma that shattered his mind, a combo of both himself and Jenova's original will.

At this, I would like to propose in theory, the reason he did not dissipate into the Lifestream, is because this second personality as it's own entity, his Will, held him together and possibly managed to keep him alive in some way or form (possibly managing to save part of his body or mayabe his mind itself). Here is where I believe the Will has taken over. Now, something else I'd like to add here, the reason 'Sephiroth' still refers to Jenova as his mother: being his Will was born out of trauma, it would only have largely the memory of what caused the trauma, the notion that Jenova was (a misidentified) Ancient and that Sephy, having her genes, was the last of their kind. This would only combine with Jenova's original will, to destroy the planet; from this we get the notion that the Will runs on the plan to "take back the planet" from the humans, deeming them inferior and would further use the planet as a vessel, before destroying it completely, to create a new future (perhaps void of humans). For that, he would still refer to Jenova as "mother" but merely uses her as a puppet (perhaps deeming her the 'monster', instead).

To further elaborate, it is widely known and accepted (also argued) that Sephiroth used Jenova's body in FFVII to shapeshift into his form, each time Cloud and the gang encountered him. As part of this theory, what if it was not Sephy pulling the strings, but the Will itself? It would control Jenova in the same way to come into direct conflict with Cloud and company, while Sephiroth's real body was reforming in the mako crystal, hidden in the Northern Cave (possibly the same body that fell into the mako pit in Crisis Core). I would also like to point out, the reason he often came off very evil in FFVII is because the Will as a created entity from a host, has no soul and is only a will and consciousness, made out of negative energy, all the while Sephiroth's real self is left deep inside, locked in a half-insane, mentally unstable state, unable to recover from the trauma. This would bring the grim and ironic revelation that Sephiroth himself was a puppet to his own Will, using his trauma-induced state to further keep itself in existence.

Again in ACC, the Will may have found some way to possibly to keep Sephy alive somehow and then created the 3 brothers, Kadaj, Yazoo and Loz, to search for the remains of Jenova's head, in order to use it and create a new physical form.. but since it is only part of her head, the Will would need another pseudo-body to recreate Sephy's form completely... Kadaj. Thus when Kadaj, combines the remains of her head with himself (under false pretenses), his body becomes Sephiroth's form and the Will itself takes over again, to face Cloud. It's also rather likely the Will has a deep hatred for Cloud (as Cloud killed the insane Sephiroth in CC) and revels in making him suffer, which would explain why he merely toys with the blonde every time they battle, slowly torturing him.

Lastly, I would like to propose an extension of this theory to the 3 brothers themselves. Now, it seemed rather apparent both Yazoo and Loz were hive-minded drones (with fragments of separate personas to give them partial differentiation) and only seemed focused on the task of finding "Mother"... Kadaj, however seemed to carry more sentience. Tho he too was focused on the task of finding "Mother", there were also times he seemed to question other things and seemed more like he was cryptically wanting help. Tho his notions of "Mother choosing Sephiroth over him" may have been somewhat warped, it seems to me Kadaj himself may have been a "leak", if you will, of Sephiroth's true self. It also seems curious that, theoretically, by ACC, Cloud may have been aware of this to some degree, seemingly not showing any anger or hatred to Kadaj, but moreso curiously came off feeling sorry for him, also evidenced by the act of catching Kadaj from falling after the battle. It's also curious to me that Cloud didnt seem to show any hatred to Sephiroth in ACC, but mainly determination to stop him.

Well, that's pretty much what I had thought out, and forgive me it's a bit shoddy, I was never adept at creating theories :monster: but, I tried. I understand if you guys don't agree, I just been thinking on it for months on end now. Well, have at it, I guess xD.

~ Beelzemon

EDIT: OMG that is the LONGEST poast I have ever written O.O! Huzzah... *collapses from tiring out* X_x
 
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Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
Gabe, no. That is incredibly rude. Posts like this are what keep the board going, so if you don't like it ignore it.

That being said, interesting theory, Beel. I think a lot of what has been said is covered in the Ultimanias, but it's interesting to think about in a "what if" sort of way. However, it is pretty clear that it was all Seph himself just being evil.
 

Kai Schulen

... ... ...▼
AKA
Trainer Red
I never really could subscribe to the idea of Sephiroth being schizophrenic or having a split personality with the trauma of finding out who Jenova really was/finding out that he was Hojo's science fair project and that Sephiroth, deep down in his heart, still has some "good" left in him because it would've been hinted at in the game's narrative.
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
Yes, I feel much the same way. I think the games put so much emphasis on him being the bad guy that it wouldn't make sense for him to suddenly come out of it. I mean, he was cool before his fall, but once you fall you fall, you know?

Even if he could become good again, I think he's done far too much for everyone to just shrug it off and forgive him either way.
 

Mariketsu

I Am the Darkness, I'm the Monster
AKA
Razael
I understand if you guys can't really see it that way, just thought I'd try to help get a new discussion going, seeing as the boards been rather dead-ish. I actually got tired after writing that XD. I look at it as a psychological standpoint cuz I tend to be very interested in psychology and such and I like to get deep into character tendencies, personalities and such.

~ Beelzemon
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
I love discussing the psychology of characters as well. It is an interesting concept to wonder about, whether or not there is a good Seph trapped under the evil. Tortured, trying to break out but never does. Poor thing. lol

I must admit, CC did paint off as a really cool guy. His fall seemed suddenly really hard to take after getting to know him when he was one of the good guys. :P
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
I think this theory sort of patches up some of the problems I had with Sephiroth's characterization in CC. The personality shift always felt way too dramatic and unbelievable. IMO, CC's depiction made Seph an even less relatable/thought out character. It would of been more effective, imo, if they gave him more natural jerk tendencies.

I think this theory reconciles and justifies the choice of characterizing him that way, so kudos to you. I still prefer my image of Sephiroth always being slightly arrogant and sadistic, even when not insane.
 

Geostigma

Pro Adventurer
AKA
gabe
Emmă;246562 said:
Gabe, no. That is incredibly rude. Posts like this are what keep the board going, so if you don't like it ignore it.

That being said, interesting theory, Beel. I think a lot of what has been said is covered in the Ultimanias, but it's interesting to think about in a "what if" sort of way. However, it is pretty clear that it was all Seph himself just being evil.

Bull shit all 3 posts like that are what keep this board going?
Ha no its spamming like mine that actually keep this board going, delete General anything and see if this site can even stay alive 6 months.

You so silly tenny.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Gabe, none of that has anything do with the fact that your post was still rude and uncalled for. So either post on topic or ignore it.

You and I discussed this before Beel, and as I said then, it is an interesting theory. But it does still strike me as merely a replacement for the "Jenova was in control" viewpoint.

Misato Katsuragi said:
I think this theory sort of patches up some of the problems I had with Sephiroth's characterization in CC. The personality shift always felt way too dramatic and unbelievable. IMO, CC's depiction made Seph an even less relatable/thought out character. It would of been more effective, imo, if they gave him more natural jerk tendencies.

I think this theory reconciles and justifies the choice of characterizing him that way, so kudos to you. I still prefer my image of Sephiroth always being slightly arrogant and sadistic, even when not insane.

Why? The brief glimpse we got of sane Sephy in VII didn't imply that he was sadistic - or even particularly arrogant. He obliged the man dying to take a picture of them, he asked a faceless grunt under him about his hometown. He talked about the odd feelings of familiarity of Nibelheim with Zack. I didn't think CC portrayed Sephiroth especially different from what we would expect.
He's a touch arrogant - and who could not be in his position - and a little antisocial, but he was still a relatively normal guy - or at least he was pretending to be.
 

Geostigma

Pro Adventurer
AKA
gabe
Gabe, none of that has anything do with the fact that your post was still rude and uncalled for. So either post on topic or ignore it.

I didnt bring it up 8)
And i could care less if it was rude your rude for calling me rude, rude ass.
 

Vossler

Voss da boss bitch
AKA
Nightmare,race driver,steel tormenter
I think Sephiroth just had a problem with women and masturbated to much.

To be quite frank I don't see what the big deal is about Sephiroth. Sure they showed him a bit in the original FF7 but only as a great man that wound up going crazy cause he found out he was genetically altered. Then he went nuts and started burning down houses and bringing down the cosmos and he still got owned in the end.
In Advent Children he got his 15 minutes of fame but it really don't go into much detail about why he was back in the first place. Schizo is an understatement.
Sephiroth just suffered from acute penile envy.
 

Tennyo

Higher Further Faster
I think this theory sort of patches up some of the problems I had with Sephiroth's characterization in CC. The personality shift always felt way too dramatic and unbelievable. IMO, CC's depiction made Seph an even less relatable/thought out character. It would of been more effective, imo, if they gave him more natural jerk tendencies.

I think this theory reconciles and justifies the choice of characterizing him that way, so kudos to you. I still prefer my image of Sephiroth always being slightly arrogant and sadistic, even when not insane.

I think that that is far too predictable, though. Serphiroth being a jerk from the get go doesn't really make it all that shocking when he turns. It would just basically be him being a tad bit more of a jerk than before. :P

I know I've imagined times where, maybe on the battlefield, he could be rather ruthless with his opponents, but as for his friends and the people who knew him personally, he was for the most part a pretty nice guy.

I think it's more thought-out, and it makes it seem like more of a fall, going from nice guy to evil sadistic madman instead of a slightly more subdued madman to a full-blown madman. Where's the shock? Where's the change?
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
I'm really getting sick of people who aren't interested in a topic, chiming in with rude posts deriding said topic. If you don't like the subject of the thread, gtfo. It's a simple concept. Find something else to discuss.

When people talk at a water cooler about the latest episode Supernatural, do you just randomly make your way into the conversation to say "Supernatural sucks ass, and you need to find something else to talk about?" No. Not if you have any sense of civility and tact.

So if you don't like the subject. Leave and save your attempts at witty banter and one-liners for another thread. Thank you.

I shouldn't have to tell members this.
 

Geostigma

Pro Adventurer
AKA
gabe
I'm really getting sick of people who aren't interested in a topic, chiming in with rude posts deriding said topic. If you don't like the subject of the thread, gtfo. It's a simple concept. Find something else to discuss.

When people talk at a water cooler about the latest episode Supernatural, do you just randomly make your way into the conversation to say "Supernatural sucks ass, and you need to find something else to talk about?" No. Not if you have any sense of civility and tact.

So if you don't like the subject. Leave and save your attempts at witty banter and one-liners for another thread. Thank you.

I shouldn't have to tell members this.

Yeah you shouldnt because you know i dont give a shit :monster:

And yes i tell people at water coolers that supernatural sucks all the time.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
Emmă;246876 said:
I think that that is far too predictable, though. Serphiroth being a jerk from the get go doesn't really make it all that shocking when he turns. It would just basically be him being a tad bit more of a jerk than before. :P

I know I've imagined times where, maybe on the battlefield, he could be rather ruthless with his opponents, but as for his friends and the people who knew him personally, he was for the most part a pretty nice guy.

I think it's more thought-out, and it makes it seem like more of a fall, going from nice guy to evil sadistic madman instead of a slightly more subdued madman to a full-blown madman. Where's the shock? Where's the change?

I'm not sure the nice guy falling is unpredictable (Lucifer, anyone? :monster:) But it makes a stronger point regardless. If he were always a dick and then just suddenly found a reason to be one, so what? It says more about the character to be an aloof but decent human being and become an absolute monster.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
I just found the personality change really retarded because it was hardly believable. His after personality hardly bore any resemblance to his after personality. That's why I can appreciate this theory because it reconciles the awkward character development.
 

ForceStealer

Double Growth
I guess I see what you mean. But he did completely snap. He certainly didn't speak cryptically and lead you crazy vision-quests before, but maybe he thought that kinda stuff before and was just too...normal to ever say it.

But to soliloquize on life is to be a villain, I think its in the rulebook.
 

Mariketsu

I Am the Darkness, I'm the Monster
AKA
Razael
I can see where you guys are coming from, respectively, tho I still like the 'what if' of the theory. Btw, i'd like to point out something Rufus said in ACC that caught me attention when I watched it yesterday:

"Sephiroth is dead." ~ Cloud

"Yes, but has his mind died? What if he's somehow dissolved into the Lifestream, coursing through the planet undiffused?" ~ Rufus

Reminded me of the theory a bit, as in the Will itself XD. Just puttin that out there tho.

Thanks for the input guys :)

~ Beel
 

GodRoy

Pro Adventurer
I think the reason Sephiroth turned evil in the first place was the shock that he felt when he thought that his mother was an ancient, and that he and his mother were abused by humans in some way. When after finally discovering she was actually what attacked the Ancients, he just assumed his full superiority complex and thought that not only was his "mother" (even though he was Hojo and Lucrecia's baby that had Jenova cells put inside) better than the ancients and the humans, but so was he and wanted to become the ultimate being by damaging the planet and absorbing the lifestream. It's not really that difficult to believe for me.

As for the theory, it reminds me of kingdom hearts Sephiroth, with him saying that he couldn't die unless Cloud let go of the darkness or something. And the undiffused thing could be anything really. It's so vague. It could mean Sephiroth escaped from the final battle and is in the lifestream as his whole self, or maybe injured like from his first battle with Cloud at Nibelheim, or his will is in the lifestream, or parts of him/Jenova are in the lifestream. It doesn't really specify all except that apparently with enough parts of jenova a Sephy experiment like Cloud or Kadaj can be directly controlled by and take the form of Sephiroth.
 

X-SOLDIER

Harbinger O Great Justice
AKA
X
Ok, I apologize for this being a super cliche response in linking anime & video games, but I think that the parallels are strong enough to make really clear connections (for anyone who's seen them). Compare the character arcs of Sephiroth with Gaara from Naruto, and I think you'll find a really strong resemblance.

Gaara's mother died giving birth to him, because he was half a monster and half human, by having Shukaku sealed inside him. He always knew that he was different, and treated him differently (like shit). His mother's twin raised him, and then eventually, at Gaara's weakest moment, tried to murder him - that's his Nibelheim. He freaks the fuck out, loses all faith in humanity, and embraces the raw, supernatural power that he has, and becomes a cold, murderous monster up til the point that you first meet him during the Chuunin exams. The difference with Gaara is that there was enough of his humanity left to turn him into a real person, but with Sephiroth, there wasn't.


Now on to Sephiroth:

He's always known that he's different, but also incredibly capable, but he has no real family dynamic aside from Genesis and Angeal, and to a lesser extent, Zack. Angeal dies, tons of chaos with Genesis, and then right as Sephiroth discovers that he's a product of mad scientific experimentation, Genesis shows up to twist the knife, and send him over the edge.

He gets totally wrapped up in his hatred, and the betrayal that he feels towards everyone. He even tells Genesis to fuck off when Genesis says that he needs Sephiroth's cells to stop his degredation. Sephiroth's so far bent into his belief that there's no way that Zack (who tries to talk everyone out of everything) can break him out of it. It's Zack and Cloud's hatred of everything he's done, and now him by proxy that helps to fuel his self isolation and believing in his mutated ideals (at the time believing that he's a cetra, but slowly converting as he uncovers the truth), and choosing to isolate himself from humanity and follow Jenova. Jenova's something that no one can take away from him. No matter what, Reunion will keep coming back, the cells keep regenerating, and it's a sense of security, that - despite all the fucked up shit, and betrayal, it's something that he'll always be able to embrace. It's who he's completely become, not a split personality, or a mutation from Jenova. It's a complete mutation of his character that is thoroughly overtaken everything he used to be.

It's why after his death, he's still so obsessed with it that's Cloud's hatred of him is enough to keep him around in the lifestream, even as everyone is forgetting about him. He's so focused on hating humanity, that he's trying to force them to hate him even more, just to keep himself alive. It's why he tells Cloud he'll never just be a memory at the end of ACC, he's completely and fully committed to his undying hatred of humanity, and has fully embraced Jenova's legacy of xenocidal planetary destruction as his own. There's no sliver of who he used to be left. He didn't crack into two seperate entities, he completely evolved into an entirely new person. He's so consumed in his self-formed ideology that he likely forgot why he's doing it at all, and is just hell bent on bringing about destruction.


Well built characters don't just start as raving psychopaths, they start out normal but under a special set of circumstances, and then a compouned series of events completely fucks them up, and it's what makes them intriguing. Sephiroth's just in the unique position that he's powerful enough, and hated enough that no one's going to be able to stop him and make him question his ideals, so he's a continual force of hatred and destruction, unbound by morality, and far away from being human any more. That's what allows him to brutally murder people and feel utterly no remorse, because he really believes that he's not human anymore, and they're lesser beings, which was enforced by his eliteism from the beginning. He's the perfect combination for a villian, because killing him and purging his memory is really the only way to completely overcome and defeat him.


X :neo:
 
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