New year, New LTD thread. (Round 5)

[Elisa Maza]

Lilith spelled out a great point. One that seems lost on everyone else. When Aerith died the dynamic changed. Aerith's line is even in past tense. We can clearly see how Zacks death hits Cloud. Hell we still see him lamenting at the beginning of the movie. Are we to think he wasn't as important to Cloud because Aerith is the symbol of his failures? Was Zack less important to Aerith because Cloud is the living symbol of what she wants to protect?

I'd say that this "mutation" (you'll see why I choose this word), happens later than her time of death (look at me, speaking awesome English!). From Aerith's case... well, she's dead and she cannot be with him as a lover anymore, but her own feelings had to take their time to change. I have no doubt that she had the hots for Cloud and Cloud only (not ZaCloud) after Gonga... Konga... erm... Zack's hometown, her expressing this during their date being an indication of this, but since she's dead and all... might as well look after the man. Because, like Celes said, and I agree with her, there had to be feelings of love from her part while she was alive for Cloud to be a representative of what is important: we usually use one a loved one as a representative for anything and anyone we love. Tres' example of King was a good one.

From Cloud's perspective, I think this happens during CoT, after he gets the flowers to Aerith's grave for Elmyra. For Cloud to move Aerith as a representative of failing what was he supposed to protect and save (oh, the obsession with heroism!), be it romantic interest from his part or not, was when he had the time to look back to his life up until that point. Aerith becoming the representative of his failures, means that it was the biggest failure for him (him protecting her, not that Aerith herself was a failure!!!). Now, this guilt would be derived from any source of feelings he had towards her during the time she was alive. Romantic or not, I don't think it matters. If you chose the right answers in the game, yes, they derived from romantic feelings. If you didn't, then it was Cloud being Cloud. He always assumes that everybody feels disappointed in him when he feels disappointed in himself.

And the past tense... does it even matter? Every novella is in Simple Past. For Aerith's feelings not to be a case anymore, this phrase had to be in Past Perfect in the English translation. This is why I chose the word "mutation". Whatever feeling they may had for each other didn't go "poof!" by the end of her life, even the end of the OG. It's not like change means a one hundred eighty turn. They mutated, but the root remains.

Wow, actual discussion for once. I'm shocked.

And get this gift from the first LTD thread. I thought it was too awesome not to be reminded. Courtesy of Hito:

 

[OneWingedDemon]

it's not like cloud was like 'OH AERITH i remember nothing about you really BUT YOU REMIND ME OF WHAT A FAILURE I AM'

No, but their relationship after her death is defined by the fact that he failed to keep her alive. That's what gets to him. THAT'S why he wants forgiveness and the fact that he wants to be forgiven at all speaks to this. He's not simply mourning the passing of Aeris. At no point (other I think than the moment of her death) does the story emphasize the absence of Aeris and Cloud's grief in the face of it. It's always about Cloud's guilt. He mourns his own failure more than anything.

 

[Elisa Maza]

^ I think that diminishes Aerith herself a little bit. Let us not forget that what Cloud lamented was the fact that Aerith wouldn't continue living her life. *points at his speech about how Aerith won't laugh, cry or be angry again, blah, blah* This speech in not some kind of whoe to his personal failure, but a quite ridiculous and stupid(1), yet very true speech about death: you die, you loose everything, you are unable to do anything (the fact that this message was raped with her reappearances is another story of clumsy writing). So, Cloud was mourning Aerith as a person for a long time (years, actually), before she found the place as a symbol of his failures in his mind.

(1) I call it ridiculous and stupid, because really, WHO TALKS LIKE THAT AT SUCH A MOMENT?? Cheesy writing is cheesy.

But he resolved that in ACC, leaving us with the present tense--Aerith lives on in her friends' hearts. Nothing about her being a symbol there.

Something I wanted to point out before, but I forgot. Cloud remembering Aerith was nothing but a negative thing, after he brought flowers to her grave and up until the end of ACC. I've never seen anyone saying this, but it is a fact that her memory alone was something negative for him, since he couldn't see past her dying moment. He connected Aerith with nothing but guilt and failure, something quite harmful for any ship, if I say so myself.

It is only *after* the end of ACC that Cloud can remember Aerith as someone who gave him smiles and teasing while she was alive. It's only *after* he has settled his guilt that he can remember Aerith with fondness.

Add this one to the list of "What Cloud has FINALLY learned by the end of ACC".

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Let us not forget that what Cloud lamented was the fact that Aerith wouldn't continue living her life. *points at his speech about how Aerith won't laugh, cry or be angry again, blah, blah*

At no point (other I think than the moment of her death)...

Ja I know.

So, Cloud was mourning Aerith as a person for a long time (years, actually), before she found the place as a symbol of his failures in his mind.

I'm not sure I'm with you on the whole "For years he considers her this and for the rest this other thing". It's not as simple as the switch of a button.

Aeris' death is talked of, even in the OG, mostly in reference to her sacrifice. In one fo the most pivotal moments, AVALANCHE talk about the opportunity Aeris left behind and how they should not let it go to waste. Carry out her final wish so to speak. In a way, AVALANCHE and Cloud are carrying on Aeris' torch much like Cloud carries Zack's when he's all "I is your legacy".

I don't think this diminishes her. The story has always pushed Aeris a symbol and I think it has emphasized this over anything else. It continues to do so. The motherly saint they've made her in AC, for example. Not that she wasn't anything else, or that she wasn't a friend and comrade, but that the former has been emphasized far more.

Cloud himself says in the OG that Aeris must be freed, must be allowed to complete what she started and return to the Planet. She must not remain a memory of a girl who just smiled and then vanished. This is something he does not grant Sephiroth, whom he tells to "go back to his memories where he belongs".

Aeris, like Zack, is not just a memory. They are symbols. They get a legacy in the form of a living planet for the former, and Cloud, for the latter.

As for WHEN Aeris becomes a symbol of hsi failures, I don't think you can point to one particular point in time. I think it's a cumulative effect. Probably after Cloud finds out he's useless and the Planet's under threat again and all of their sacrifices amounted to nothing. Cloud can no longer live for Zack, can no longer protect the Planet, not even protect those closest to him.

As we all know, AC features an angsty Cloud because Nomura thinks black and zippers are the way to go and he thinks that's why ppl liked Cloud (WTF? Some Bella Swan complex?). AC throws him in a loop, character-wise. He reverts to move on once again. Nonetheless, I don't think it's a stretch to say that when everything's settled after all the commotion and excitement that SAVING THE FREAKIN WORLD involved, Cloud et al would have problems adjusting after losing so much. Everyone seems to be struggling. Barret, with his past and reconciling his terrorist ways, Tifa, etc.

I don't think Aeris suddenly, at one point, becomes a symbol of his failures. I mean, obviously after her death, but it's not like he wakes up one day feeling guilty. Obviously the guilt is there from the moment of her death.

Anyway, I guess my point is that the story has always emphasized thsi side of Aeris as a symbol, so it's not new, nor exclusive to AC.

 

[minimosey]

At no point (other I think than the moment of her death) does the story emphasize the absence of Aeris and Cloud's grief in the face of it. It's always about Cloud's guilt. He mourns his own failure more than anything.

Cloud
I remember Aeris a lot.
No... not that.
You haven't remembered.
You haven't forgotten.
That's not it...
How would you say it... Aeris was right there all along. Right by our side.
She was so close, we couldn't see her. What Aeris did... The words she left behind...

This sounds like "Aeris' absence and Cloud's grief" to me.

I don't remember Cloud claiming guilt for Aerith's death in the game itself, actually. Didn't that start with AC? (--as a note, I mean AC's release; in-universe it starts with Case of Tifa).

 

[Ryushikaze]

This sounds like "Aeris' absence and Cloud's grief" to me.

I don't remember Cloud claiming guilt for Aerith's death in the game itself, actually. Didn't that start with AC? (--as a note, I mean AC's release; in-universe it starts with Case of Tifa).

I don't read grief into that. I read that as remembering what she's done for them in a positive way, how her contribution to the party's effort has continued even post-mortem.

 

[Zee]

Lots of actions show that they care for one another as more than just symbols... I mean, I doubt they'd be a symbol of anything to each other without first growing close to one another as comrades (or lovers if you believe) first... because otherwise there'd be no reason for Cloud and Aerith to want to protect one another, and the impact of Aerith's death wouldn't have been so strong if she were just another person to him.

Requoted for awesome.

I don't really like the whole "comrades as symbols" thing, because even though in one way they do become that, it shouldn't distract or overshadow the relationships that made them significant in Cloud's life in the first place. And it's more than a little dehumanizing. :\

 

[minimosey]

I don't read grief into that. I read that as remembering what she's done for them in a positive way, how her contribution to the party's effort has continued even post-mortem.

I read it differently because it's before they actually know her effort has continued post-mortem (they don't know Aerith was praying for Holy or that it's activated yet) and the conversation starts with Bugenhagen asking if they've lost their way. The way he talks always gave me the impression that they had yet to sort out their thoughts with Aerith's death.

I guess it might not be grief, though, but I don't see it as all that positive either. More working through feelings?

 

[I Am Not Me]

For me Aerith and Zack are on the same level of affection in Cloud's heart.

This is the only thing remotely close to the truth on this page.

It's blue, and it has the words "Zack" "affection" "in" "Cloud's heart" in it.

It was intended for Cloud to be with Zack. Sure, he's dead, but that's what the lifestream and necrophilia are for. Plus, Zack was in BBS, which you all might say is completely unrelated/irrelevant BUT that's just all your rapidness clouding your judgement, blinding you from the truth.

Clack is canon. Everything Cloud does is about Zack. Tifa and Aerith are[were] just friends/nakama. Yeah, I went there.

No, I didn't read this thread at all. Sorry. Hi there, LTD. Long time, no see!

 

[Ryushikaze]

I read it differently because it's before they actually know her effort has continued post-mortem (they don't know Aerith was praying for Holy or that it's activated yet) and the conversation starts with Bugenhagen asking if they've lost their way. The way he talks always gave me the impression that they had yet to sort out their thoughts with Aerith's death.

I guess it might not be grief, though, but I don't see it as all that positive either. More working through feelings?

I'm not talking about Aerith's own contributions post mortem, but the influence she had while alive has bolstered them even though she's dead.
I read that as more realizing that her influence, as it were, wasn't gone, even though she was.

This is the only thing remotely close to the truth on this page.

It's blue, and it has the words "Zack" "affection" "in" "Cloud's heart" in it.

It was intended for Cloud to be with Zack. Sure, he's dead, but that's what the lifestream and necrophilia are for. Plus, Zack was in BBS, which you all might say is completely unrelated/irrelevant BUT that's just all your rapidness clouding your judgement, blinding you from the truth.

Clack is canon. Everything Cloud does is about Zack. Tifa and Aerith are[were] just friends/nakama. Yeah, I went there.

No, I didn't read this thread at all. Sorry. Hi there, LTD. Long time, no see!

Hey there shortstack.
Also, I disagree. Tifa and Aerith were a lot more than just friends. I mean, always running off with each other, there was something going on there.

 

[Joker]

Don Corneo seems to choose Aerith a lot over Tifa, if he doesn't take Cloud.

Therefore, Aerith is hotter.

Or something.

 

[Alessa Gillespie]

Don Corneo seems to choose Aerith a lot over Tifa, if he doesn't take Cloud.

Therefore, Aerith is hotter.

Or something.

OR

don corneo is an ass man

 

[Joker]

Aerith and Cloud's asses are better than Tifa's?

How depressing >:

Alternately, it could be that somehow, Aerith looks like more of a whore than Tifa.

 

[Celes Chere]

don corneo is an ass man

Definitely true if he chooses Aerith most often (which I can't EVER get to happen, no matter how many times I play! ) , because did you SEE her in the final cutscene in Crisis Core?! O_o

 

[Dana Scully]

Wtf, people. I take great offense at the notion that Tifa does not have a fine, fine ass. Not that Aerith's isn't fine, but you just can't compete with the ass of the best martial artist in the world.

 

[Celes Chere]

I think Tifa's ass is fine, but Aerith's ass... no especially Zack's, is just perfection. ;o; Meh, Tifa is just plain sexy, let's leave it at that.

 

[Dashell]

So like... something I was thinking of was this quote:

She communicates her feelings together with Cloud in the final stages of the story, and in AC and DC they live together.

Now some people might say "That's just the high affection scene that they were talking about!" or "Doesn't say what feelings!"

But what if it's NOT talking about the Highwind scene at all? What if it's talking about the Lifestream Sequence?

Even though Cloud was holding feelings for Tifa from some time ago, Tifa's interest in Cloud did not start until the time when the promised was exchanged. It might have been her loneliness due to her surrounding friends leaving one after another, but more than that, it seems largely in part to him making the promise to become her hero.

By the way, Tifa did not realize that Cloud was holding feelings for her until he informed her in the Lifestream. Even though she was called and it was just the two of them, she can be quite clueless. (page 25)

There's that part in the Lifestream where Tifa says she was looking for articles about Cloud in the newspaper and the younger Cloud says "Thanks Tifa, he'll probably be so happy to hear that." (or w/e he says)

So although it's not very direct, isn't that pretty much communicating their feelings right there? Plus there's other times they communicate feelings like when Cloud says he wanted to join soldier to impress Tifa and such. AND it's feelings of love because it relates those feelings to the Promise Scene...? Most of the Highwind scene quotes just say they "confirmed" their feelings. Confirming usually means that you think you're right (or wrong) but then you confirm it to be sure. The ones that say "reveal" use this verb:

http://www.nihongodict.com/w/56830/uchiakeru/ which is to open your heart or speak honestly.
or
http://www.nihongodict.com/w/101030/buchiakeru/ which just means to speak honestly.

I guess I wouldn't say feelings were revealed there so much. The other ones that talk about communicating could just be that they communicate their feelings further.

So... if this "doesn't say what feelings/High affection only" can be used by some, I think this theory can be used as well. Especially since the Lifestream Sequence isn't optional.



/end being bored

 

[Madame Mayor]

The LA just feels like an incomplete version of what's really supposed to happen.

It's a part of the game on the same level as not getting Yuffie or Vincent, or not seeing the Zack flashbacks.

It's actually possible to go on the GS date with Aerith and still get the high affection Highwind scene too, isn't it?

It is. I'm pretty sure you have to really ignore Tifa and never use her in your party for the LA version to happen.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Now some people might say "That's just the high affection scene that they were talking about!" or "Doesn't say what feelings!"

But what if it's NOT talking about the Highwind scene at all? What if it's talking about the Lifestream Sequence?

...

There's that part in the Lifestream where Tifa says she was looking for articles about Cloud in the newspaper and the younger Cloud says "Thanks Tifa, he'll probably be so happy to hear that." (or w/e he says)

So although it's not very direct, isn't that pretty much communicating their feelings right there? Plus there's other times they communicate feelings like when Cloud says he wanted to join soldier to impress Tifa and such. AND it's feelings of love because it relates those feelings to the Promise Scene...? Most of the Highwind scene quotes just say they "confirmed" their feelings. Confirming usually means that you think you're right (or wrong) but then you confirm it to be sure. The ones that say "reveal" use this verb:

http://www.nihongodict.com/w/56830/uchiakeru/ which is to open your heart or speak honestly.
or
http://www.nihongodict.com/w/101030/buchiakeru/ which just means to speak honestly.

I guess I wouldn't say feelings were revealed there so much. The other ones that talk about communicating could just be that they communicate their feelings further.

So... if this "doesn't say what feelings/High affection only" can be used by some, I think this theory can be used as well. Especially since the Lifestream Sequence isn't optional.

Since the quote from the CC Ultimania that says "communicates their feelings" also says "in the final stages of the story," and since the verbage for "communicates their feelings" (想いを通わせ; "omoi wo tsuuwase") is identical in other quotes that explicitly refer to the Highwind scene (pp. 15 and 27 of the Ultimania Omega), and also since this is so similar to the verbage used in the other quotes explicitly referring to the Highwind scene, I don't think the line from the CC Ultimania could be interpreted to refer to anything else.

At least not anything else at the exclusion of the Highwind scene.

 

[OneWingedDemon]

I know there's the whole "they have nowhere else to go", but still.

It's not that they simply have nowhere else to go.
If you remember, Cloud sends everyone out to find that which they are fighting for. And he will understand, he says, if they don't find it and don't return. Because no one can fight for no reason (his entire story in Dissidia is pretty much this).

Cloud
"Meteor's gonna fall in about......"

(He turns to face the others. Red XIII shakes his head.)

Red XIII
"Seven more days. That's what Grandfather said."

(Cloud comes to him.)

Cloud
"Red XIII........."
"You want to see everyone in Cosmo Canyon again?"

(Red XIII turns away)

Red XIII
".........yes."

(He turns back to him. Cloud turns to Barret, who is gazing out at the
clouds below.)

Cloud
"You want to see Marlene, right?"

(Barret turns)

Barret
"Don't ask me that."

(Cloud shakes his head)

Cloud
"We'll beat Sephiroth..."
"Then, if we don't release the power of Holy in seven
days........."
"There won't be a planet left to protect."

(He shrugs)

Cloud
"If we can't beat Sephiroth..."
"It's as good as death for us."
"We'll just go a few days sooner than the rest who'll die from
Meteor."

Barret
"Don't be thinkin' you're gonna lose before ya even fight!"

Cloud
"No!"

(He walks up to the bay window.)

Cloud
"What I meant was..."

(He turns to the others)

Cloud
"What are we all fighting for? I want us all to understand that."
"Save the planet... for the future of the planet... Sure, that's
all fine."
"But really, is that really how it is?"

(He takes a few steps forward)

Cloud
"For me, this is a personal feud."
"I want to beat Sephiroth. And settle my past."
"Saving the planet just happens to be a part of that."
"I've been thinking."

(He nods)

Cloud
"I think we all are fighting for ourselves."
"For ourselves... and that someone... something... whatever it
is, that's important to us."
"That's what we're fighting for."
"That's why we keep up this battle for the planet."

(He looks at Barret. Barret scratches his head)

Barret
"You're right..."
"It sounds cool sayin' it's to save the planet."
"But I was the one who blew up that Mako reactor......"
"Lookin' back on it now, I can see that wasn't the right way to
do things."
"I made a lot of friends and innocent bystanders suffer..."

(He thrusts his fist into the air)

Barret
"...At first, it was for revenge against Shinra. For attackin' my
town."
"But now......"
"Yeah. I'm fightin' for Marlene."
"For Marlene... For Marlene's future..."
"Yeah... I guess I want to save the planet for Marlene's sake..."

(Cloud nods)

Cloud
"Go and see her. Make sure you're right, and come back."

(He turns to the others)

Cloud
"All of you. Get off the ship and find out your reasons for
yourselves."
"I want you to make sure. Then I want you to come back."

Cid
"Maybe ain't none of us'll come back."
"Meteor's just gonna kill us all anyway. Let's just forget any
useless struggling!"

(Cloud nods)

Cloud
"I know why I'm fighting."
"I'm fighting to save the planet, and that's that."
"But besides that, there's something personal too..."
"A very personal memory that I have."
"What about you all?"
"I want all of you to find that something within yourselves."
"If you don't find it, then that's okay too."
"You can't fight without a reason, right?"
"So, I won't hold it against you if you don't come back."

Note also that Cloud asks Red and Barret to return to specific places and people they love. If SE wanted to highlight Aeris as the lost lover, this is the place to do it. Opportune moment. THIS IS IT.

But everyone leaves. Cloud stays. With Tifa.

Conclusion should be obvious.

 

[Dashell]

hey... where is that quote from where Nobuo Uematsu says he wrote "Cloud smiles" for the shy smile Cloud gave Tifa? All I'm finding on google is either an MP3 of the song or people saying he said that but I can't find the quote itself.

 

[Frostwave]

I couldn't find the quote, either. But I have the CE Advent Children thing it was packaged with, so I popped it in and typed it from there.

"When I was skimming through the script there was one line at the end that said something like, "Cloud Smiles". I thought, "This is it. Cloud smiles!" I don't think anyone who played Final Fantasy VII can really imagine Cloud smiling. I couldn't. So I thought, "Cloud smiles in this movie? This has to be good." Sometimes a small phrase like that can influence the music."

 

[Dashell]

I need the one that says he smiles at Tifa specifically. You know to avoid the "Herp derp he smiles only at Aerith and Vincent."

I mean there IS a quote out there that says this right? This wasn't something that got messed up is it?

 

[OneWingedDemon]

Nobuo composed "Cloud Smiles" after he read the script. The script only mentions Cloud smiling once, and it's a "shy smile" directed at Tifa. Nobuo was like, OMG THIS BITCH SMILES???!!!! THAT'S WHAT I'M CALLING IT!

I'm sure the script is around here somewhere. And it specifically says "Tifa"

 

[Dashell]

Except they consider the script inaccurate because some of the information in there is from an earlier version of AC... great, I've been plugging that there's a quote that says that forever.