pxp
Pro Adventurer
Not that I disagree but Reddit is teletubbies-land compared to gamefaqs.
Plot Changes a Possibility?
- Thread starter Wimbly
- Start date
I think it's because we do actually respect each other.
- AKA
- TresDias
Your momI think it's because we do actually respect each other.
I don't know what I'm meant to understand by that. 
pxp
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- Tets
I personally never assumed they're even gonna reuse any direct quotes from Crisis Core. When we get to Zack's death scene I assume it's gonna be the Remake's own interpretation of it, not the "in continuity with the Compilation" version. Or at least that's the hope
Suzaku
Pro Adventurer
If you compare the 2017 trailer to the new 2019 trailer and impressions, you can pretty clearly see the change in direction they've taken since ditching CC2. The 2017 trailer is much closer in tone and pacing to the original game, with the script essentially pulled directly from it.
In the new version, they're keeping to the general flow and story beats, but are pretty much rewriting everything, and tweaking the pace to ramp up the tension and excitement (at least for the Bombing Mission). Obviously some of the rewriting is probably down to doing a completely fresh, in-house localization, but it sounds like they aren't making any particular effort to preserve dialogue from the original. And if I had to guess, the same will be true for Compilation dialogue.
Regarding the main twists, I'm really not sure they'll be handled exactly the same as they were in the original. Again, this is an area where most players will go in knowing the twists, and will thus be immune to the surprise. In keeping Remake a new and novel experience for veteran fans, I'm sure things will be tweaked. How those plot points will be delivered to players is almost certainly going to be changed to rely less on the moment of the twist, and more on the buildup and character development surrounding it.
If you just look at what they're doing with Cloud's flashbacks, for example, they're already showing Sephiroth to be a much more ominous and constant presence, and are all but overtly confirming his illusory / phantasmal status from the very start of the game -- even the story synopsis on the official site describes his existence in terms of "thoughts roaming the planet." But I think they're going to use that to screw with Cloud's (and the player's) perceptions. If Cloud is spending the early part of the game swinging his sword at a mirage, imagine how much more impact there will be when Cloud's blade actually makes contact with Sephiroth's? And when they later reveal that it was never actually Sephiroth, it becomes even more of a mindfuck.
Similarly, they're very clearly building up the relationships and camaraderie with the Avalanche members to amplify the gut punch when they die, and are doing a lot of work to build apprehension and conflict into their decision to become eco-terrorists, and the resulting consequences of their actions. They know we know what's coming, and that means they can play on our knowledge to make those moments even more impactful.
In the new version, they're keeping to the general flow and story beats, but are pretty much rewriting everything, and tweaking the pace to ramp up the tension and excitement (at least for the Bombing Mission). Obviously some of the rewriting is probably down to doing a completely fresh, in-house localization, but it sounds like they aren't making any particular effort to preserve dialogue from the original. And if I had to guess, the same will be true for Compilation dialogue.
Regarding the main twists, I'm really not sure they'll be handled exactly the same as they were in the original. Again, this is an area where most players will go in knowing the twists, and will thus be immune to the surprise. In keeping Remake a new and novel experience for veteran fans, I'm sure things will be tweaked. How those plot points will be delivered to players is almost certainly going to be changed to rely less on the moment of the twist, and more on the buildup and character development surrounding it.
If you just look at what they're doing with Cloud's flashbacks, for example, they're already showing Sephiroth to be a much more ominous and constant presence, and are all but overtly confirming his illusory / phantasmal status from the very start of the game -- even the story synopsis on the official site describes his existence in terms of "thoughts roaming the planet." But I think they're going to use that to screw with Cloud's (and the player's) perceptions. If Cloud is spending the early part of the game swinging his sword at a mirage, imagine how much more impact there will be when Cloud's blade actually makes contact with Sephiroth's? And when they later reveal that it was never actually Sephiroth, it becomes even more of a mindfuck.
Similarly, they're very clearly building up the relationships and camaraderie with the Avalanche members to amplify the gut punch when they die, and are doing a lot of work to build apprehension and conflict into their decision to become eco-terrorists, and the resulting consequences of their actions. They know we know what's coming, and that means they can play on our knowledge to make those moments even more impactful.
- AKA
- Ite
I would love a line from Cloud like “can you see him?” the first time ‘Sephiroth’ actually appears in front of someone else. Perhaps Cloud would be relying on Tifa to corroborate his reality?
It would be awful if Cloud swung at Sephiroth, but it was an innocent instead!! Perhaps that’s the direction they’ll go with at the Temple of the Ancients or at the Forgotten City — Cloud being outwardly sinister may be too much this time around, perhaps?
Knuxson
Pro Adventurer
From what we have been shown so far, it seems like they are striking the right balance for this game. The original is there, but it will be expanded upon since we have a whole game set in Midgar. All the main story beats from early Midgar are present: the bombing mission and its moral ambiguities, Barrett's conversation with Avalanche right after the mission and seeing the results, Cloud bumping into Aerith, Seventh Heaven, the next mission and the airbuster, and escaping Corneo's mansion through the sewers. All that stuff is still there. Then there is the new stuff we saw, like the spirits flying around Cloud and Aerith, Tifa's line about feeling trapped, and Cloud's vision of Sephiroth.
Yes, this stuff wasn't in the original in this exact way, but each one is true to the original. For the Aerith scene, it establishes right away there is something more to this woman, something ancient or supernatural. For the Tifa scene, it firmly establishes that Avalanche is maybe going too far, ruining innocent people's lives (and I am glad they are not shying away from this uncomfortable truth for the heroes of the story in the remake). For the Sephiroth scene, we have a number of times in Midgar where Cloud has one of his episodes where he hears Sephiroth, and this one is just a more dramatic one, but still has the overall sense of creepiness about it. I wouldn't mind if they expanded on Zack some in the remake.
My only real concern right now is the early game portrayal of Cloud. I would prefer him to be a little more over-the-top or enthusiastic in his line delivery, as this is supposed to be Cloud mimicking Zack's more outgoing attitude. We at least got his snarky line to Barrett during the scorpion mech battle where he is like "so what's your idea, genius?" or something to that effect. But I hope we get a nice contrast between this "fake" Cloud and the one that emerges from the lifestream in one of the next FFVII remake games.
Yes, this stuff wasn't in the original in this exact way, but each one is true to the original. For the Aerith scene, it establishes right away there is something more to this woman, something ancient or supernatural. For the Tifa scene, it firmly establishes that Avalanche is maybe going too far, ruining innocent people's lives (and I am glad they are not shying away from this uncomfortable truth for the heroes of the story in the remake). For the Sephiroth scene, we have a number of times in Midgar where Cloud has one of his episodes where he hears Sephiroth, and this one is just a more dramatic one, but still has the overall sense of creepiness about it. I wouldn't mind if they expanded on Zack some in the remake.
My only real concern right now is the early game portrayal of Cloud. I would prefer him to be a little more over-the-top or enthusiastic in his line delivery, as this is supposed to be Cloud mimicking Zack's more outgoing attitude. We at least got his snarky line to Barrett during the scorpion mech battle where he is like "so what's your idea, genius?" or something to that effect. But I hope we get a nice contrast between this "fake" Cloud and the one that emerges from the lifestream in one of the next FFVII remake games.
rimavelle
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- rima
I always felt that was Cloud's idea of what being cool was: mean and sounding like he doesn't care about anything. There's a reason his catch-phrase was "Not interested". He kinda becomes more upbeat later in the game, as he cares more for people who travel with him.
Knuxson
Pro Adventurer
There is definitely strong support for this in the OG. In the flashback, Tifa finds Cloud with the buster sword at the train station, and he is still acting all messed up, talking in gibberish etc. Then he looks up at Tifa, and there are a number of flashes, until he gets up and says hi to her as he performs his "cool" pose.
Good point. Maybe I always just read the text in a more animated way, but you are right that he definitely goes for a sort of angsty, "I don't care about anyone" kind of cool guy in the OG.
Random Nobody
local roach
i would contend that there was nothing in the original game that suggested zack was the standard shounen hero that he is in cc. i'd actually say that he did come off as vaguely assholish, but it's not surprising his characterisation didn't go that way being that it's not as engaging to play a assholish character for 40 hours.
Kain424
Old Man in the Room
I'm thinking they'll build Sephiroth up to be some sort of serious obstacle before revealing he's actually dead. Cloud will have to contend with the illusion of Sephiroth, which they'll eventually shake off as a kind of bad PTSD trip. Everything will seem somewhat fine for a bit after that, before they see Sephiroth has indeed returned and killed the President. That's the twist. That's my base prediction here.
rimavelle
Pro Adventurer
- AKA
- rima
I just had a thought, about that Seph quote...
Isn't he quoting Tifa?
Right before Cloud falls from the reactor after Air Buster battle, she tells him he can't die and has to survive. And this scene with Seph happends (in the trailer) after they show... Air Buster fight. It would make sense Cloud would be angry at Seph for quoting Tifa, the person he almost KILLED in Nibelheim.
He doesn't use the same words, but since the whole game is re-translated it's no wonder.
Isn't he quoting Tifa?
Right before Cloud falls from the reactor after Air Buster battle, she tells him he can't die and has to survive. And this scene with Seph happends (in the trailer) after they show... Air Buster fight. It would make sense Cloud would be angry at Seph for quoting Tifa, the person he almost KILLED in Nibelheim.
He doesn't use the same words, but since the whole game is re-translated it's no wonder.
- AKA
- TresDias
There's the enthusiastic "just like a kid" behavior on the ride to Nibelheim with Seph; the enthusiastic dreaming big-style "I'm gonna be rich" talk while oblivious to what advice people around him are actually trying to give (on the ride to Midgar with Cloud); the over-the-top poses an' shit; dragging a dude in a vegetative state around the world with him while being pursued -- and getting killed because he didn't leave him behind while saving himself.
Yeah, it's all there.
And it's an important aspect of FFVII, I'd argue, that the game's typical shounen hero has been dead since before the game began, his passing unremarked and his remains unceremoniously left on a bluff in the wilderness.
Random Nobody
local roach
sure, but there's also the fact that he's part of the highest ranking group of special ops super soldiers in a private military that drinks war crimes juice for breakfast, has vaguely unscrupulous plans to immediately become an independent contractor post escape, and the somewhat flippant way he describes his relationship (assuming it could be called that) with aerith. i don't dispute that he may have been properly enthusiastic about his trade or gregarious in general, but that doesn't preclude him from also being reckless, frivolous, and not the most morally conscientious if it wasn't in his interests.
i'd assume it's similar to the gap between the og turks and how they are in the compilation.
i'd assume it's similar to the gap between the og turks and how they are in the compilation.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
I mean, him like everyone else bought into the propaganda and belief that Shinra was good for the people and in the right, trying to bring the world into modernity. He realized the cruelty of the company far too late and unfortunately becomes a victim of it, too.
And I don't see how him being a mercenary is "unscrupulous." Zack being a flirt is somehow indicative of him being an asshole or not a shounen hero? Lol no, it's not.
I'm not sure what type of Zack you saw but in the and it was the one who kept Cloud safe for 4 years, and then died to protect him. If he's an asshole, then the planet needs way more assholes to make things better. Really not seeing what you're talking about in this weird "asshole monster Zack."
Random Nobody
local roach
i never said anything remotely of the sort, so you're arguing against a position i haven't taken.
zack being significantly less naïve, less morally unambiguous, more devil-may-care, and generally more anti-heroic than is portrayed in crisis core does not contradict his forming genuine bonds with people (especially when we're talking about military comraderie/fraternal loyalty) or what-have-you. we can argue to what degree (i don't think there's much substantiation either way that isn't extra-textual) he was any of those, but i feel this idea is fairly non-controversial.
he's the front line of an illegal invasion force that slaughters the citizens of a sovereign nation on their own soil. even if you want to take into account the cc arc (i am not), he's still morally compromised -- whether he deepthroated the boot or otherwise -- and again, doesn't paint a picture of the most conscientious individual.
the idea is less that he's a horrific monster qua monster and more that what little we see of his behaviour and what we are told/shown about his influence on cloud would suggest that he was closer to the 90's archetypal beef hardman "badass" than he was to goku.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Everyone part of Shinra was morally compromised. By the time Zack finally realized the truth and questioned what he believed, he was dealing with Sephiroth kicking the shit out of him and being thrown in a specimen pod for several years.
Zack being part of Shinra doesn't make Zack anti-heroic and he eventually realizes the truth. Literally, the only thing we see of Zack is him hopefully planning for the future and trying to continue to talk to Cloud to hopefully snap him out of his state.
I don't know how you get anything like an archetypal beef hardman badass. When you replay the Kalm flashback in FFVII and realize the role Cloud really played there, what Zack probably said to Cloud via the flipped role reversal, and what Zack and Cloud spoke about given Grunt Cloud's replies, you would see that Zack was actually a very support for Cloud he could confide in and open up about his weaknesses. And Cloud was aware of Zack's desire to be a hero.
So no. I do not see how Zack wishing to be a hero speaks to anything but a naive and simplistic way of thinking. And him trying to encourage Cloud to be strong and not give up trying to be in SOLDIER and not judge him for being scared is pretty obvious that he was sensitive at least to other's feelings.
You're trying to imply Crisis Core somehow played up the heroism or embelished the good nature he had, compared to the original but that's not true. The secret scene certainly doesn't imply that and Grunt Cloud's trust and openness with him coupled with his consistent encouragement certainly doesn't show it.
Zack being part of Shinra doesn't make Zack anti-heroic and he eventually realizes the truth. Literally, the only thing we see of Zack is him hopefully planning for the future and trying to continue to talk to Cloud to hopefully snap him out of his state.
I don't know how you get anything like an archetypal beef hardman badass. When you replay the Kalm flashback in FFVII and realize the role Cloud really played there, what Zack probably said to Cloud via the flipped role reversal, and what Zack and Cloud spoke about given Grunt Cloud's replies, you would see that Zack was actually a very support for Cloud he could confide in and open up about his weaknesses. And Cloud was aware of Zack's desire to be a hero.
So no. I do not see how Zack wishing to be a hero speaks to anything but a naive and simplistic way of thinking. And him trying to encourage Cloud to be strong and not give up trying to be in SOLDIER and not judge him for being scared is pretty obvious that he was sensitive at least to other's feelings.
You're trying to imply Crisis Core somehow played up the heroism or embelished the good nature he had, compared to the original but that's not true. The secret scene certainly doesn't imply that and Grunt Cloud's trust and openness with him coupled with his consistent encouragement certainly doesn't show it.
Random Nobody
local roach
again. I'm not seeing how any of that (particulary "he is nice to cloud") remotely contradicts anything that i've said.
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.....................yes.
unless I'm misremembering, the original game doesn't really give us much insight into zack's emotional state or even even his perspective of the ethics wrt what he'd been participating in during all that time. he may have opposed the sacking of nibelheim, but that's a given being that at no point were its residents considered enemies of the state. it's hard to extrapolate anything from his dislike of shinra (pair this with the immediate desire to become a private contractor/hired muscle/soldier of fortune/whatever) given that they threw him in a dungeon and wronged him, personally, for nearly five years. so I'm not sure this is either here or there in any direction.
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- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
You've literally posited nothing to reinforce your position other than he's flirtatious and wants to be a mercenary. What substantive behaviors showed he was devil-may-care, anti-heroic, less naive, and vaguely assholish?
"Assholish" was your word, btw.
Zack worked for Shinra. And so did a lot of young teens from the boonies across the world looking for a better life and spoon-fed propaganda about how wonderful Shinra is.
He was a cog in the war machine who was good at what he did and by the time he planned to quit and move on, life twisted and it was too late.
Also, Cloud's cool, disinterested and snarky persona at the start of the game was never a reflection or direct mimicry of Zack. It was an image Cloud created of what he thought a cool SOLDIER 1st class was. An ideal image he formed unconsciously using Zack's memories, and his inferiority complex from when he was a boy, striving to be cool and noticed by Tifa.
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- AKA
- Alex T
Just gonna throw this out there. Spoilers ahead.
I’m bracing myself for big plot changes. Big ones. The end of Disc 1 in the original. Aerith’s death. I’m thinking that won’t happen. Should SE do that? No. Do I want them to? No. But, as SE had stated multiple times, they’re out to deliver surprises. In that pursuit, they may see Aerith living as a way to bring a new perspective to the story. Doesn’t that just sound like something they’d say in an interview post-release? Just a thought. If you prepare for that, then everything else seems pretty minor!
I’m bracing myself for big plot changes. Big ones. The end of Disc 1 in the original. Aerith’s death. I’m thinking that won’t happen. Should SE do that? No. Do I want them to? No. But, as SE had stated multiple times, they’re out to deliver surprises. In that pursuit, they may see Aerith living as a way to bring a new perspective to the story. Doesn’t that just sound like something they’d say in an interview post-release? Just a thought. If you prepare for that, then everything else seems pretty minor!
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