Plot Changes a Possibility?

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
In regards to Cloud failing to join SOLDIER, I want to say that it was due to him being weak-willed, or weak-minded. But both are incorrect and mean something else -_- Did nobody invent a more proper term for his case?

Cloud had a weakened ego. His sense-of-self was lost due to the combined trauma of the Nibelheim Incident, low self esteem, and exposure to Mako and Jenova cells.

He essentially suffered from ego-death.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
..."Ego-death" is the term.

Cloud suffered from ego-death upon being made a Sephiroth Copy. His sense of self, his ego, was temporarily lost. He regained it thanks to Tifa piecing together his true memories in the Lifestream.
 

fancy

pants
AKA
Fancy
That all happened after he tried to join SOLDIER, tho. The original question was why he failed initially.

I'm not sure we have any way of knowing. I always assuming he was overwhelmed and underconfident in that moment. Or mayhaps physically they decided he was too lean/physically under the mark. I'm not sure if this is fanon, but I always understood that Cloud was something of a runt growing up? Next to a beefcake like Zack, I'd reckon they (whoever administers the SOLDIER treatment) determined that the procedure would be too severe on his person. They probably saw the mako poisoning Cloud endures happening from a mile away lmao.
 
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ForceStealer

Double Growth
I always gathered that Cloud had the physical strength to enter SOLDIER, he spent his childhood getting into fights, as Tifa explains.* But that whatever psychological profile they did of him lead them to (correctly) believe that his mind wouldn't stand up to the Mako+Jenova treatment.

*There's also a moment in Before Crisis where Cloud 'limit breaks' and wields a sword and the Turks notice that he has a particular aptitude for it. But I'm loathe to use Before Crisis to support anything :monster:
 

FFShinra

Sharp Shinra Shill
It might even be something as simple as his reasoning for joining in the first place. He wanted to impress Tifa. Thats a pretty flimsy idea in the eyes of Shinra. SOLDIER is their special forces, and so a certain level of commitment to the company is required.
 

Kain424

Old Man in the Room
Cloud also says, during the Highwind explanation scene, that he is physically built like someone in SOLDIER. It was a mental issue.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
That all happened after he tried to join SOLDIER, tho. The original question was why he failed initially.

I'm not sure we have any way of knowing. I always assuming he was overwhelmed and underconfident in that moment. Or mayhaps physically they decided he was too lean/physically under the mark. I'm not sure if this is fanon, but I always understood that Cloud was something of a runt growing up? Next to a beefcake like Zack, I'd reckon they (whoever administers the SOLDIER treatment) determined that the procedure would be too severe on his person. They probably saw the mako poisoning Cloud endures happening from a mile away lmao.

A SOLDIER candidate must have the psychological strength to maintain their ego when exposed to high concentrations of mako energy and Jenova cells.

Mako is concentrated Lifestream after all. The thoughts and consciousness of the dead in energy form. Combine that with Jenova and if one is not firmly grounded psychologically then their mind will snap.

Cloud was deemed an unsuitable candidate for the procedure. Not due to his body, but his mind. Zack on the other hand was stronger mentally and capable of handling the procedure.

And because of these differences, Cloud is a "success" of a Sephiroth Copy, and Zack is a failure of a Sephiroth Copy. Cloud however regained his ego and thankfully didn't die and get absorbed by Sephiroth upon the Reunion's completion.

Zack is a failed copy because he's a SOLDIER so he would of course no-sell any exposure to Jenova cells and Mako.
 

fancy

pants
AKA
Fancy
A SOLDIER candidate must have the psychological strength to maintain their ego when exposed to high concentrations of mako energy and Jenova cells.

Mako is concentrated Lifestream after all. The thoughts and consciousness of the dead in energy form. Combine that with Jenova and if one is not firmly grounded psychologically then their mind will snap.

Cloud was deemed an unsuitable candidate for the procedure. Not due to his body, but his mind. Zack on the other hand was stronger mentally and capable of handling the procedure.

And because of these differences, Cloud is a "success" of a Sephiroth Copy, and Zack is a failure of a Sephiroth Copy. Cloud however regained his ego and thankfully didn't die and get absorbed by Sephiroth upon the Reunion's completion.

Zack is a failed copy because he's a SOLDIER so he would of course no-sell any exposure to Jenova cells and Mako.

I see what you're saying now. I thought you were suggesting that Cloud couldn't enter SOLDIER because of his "ego-death" from Nibelheim and other shite. :)

Cloud also says, during the Highwind explanation scene, that he is physically built like someone in SOLDIER. It was a mental issue.

^I thought that was due to Hojo's experiments on him tho?
 

Kain424

Old Man in the Room
I thought that was due to Hojo's experiments on him tho?

Well, it's not super clear that the Hojo experiments did anything. It was hinted, as mentioned above, that his scrappy nature put him at the physical level needed to pass off being in SOLDIER. But then, it's also hinted that Sephiroth's control of him did some work as well.

 

OdaDaimyO

Conqueror of Sugar
AKA
Mochi Lover
I always thought Crisis Core expanded on the reasoning of Clouds "success", of still having his consciousness intact, that conluded in stopping the process of degeneration, and therefore allowed him to use the full potentail of the Jenova-S cells. Am I misenterpreting things here? Has this any bearings on the matter at all?
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Cloud's completely unconnected to the degeneration that Genesis and his variant of copies suffer from. They suffer from having an incomplete ability of copying and utilizing Jenova's mimicry abilities, thereby causing the genetic material of their cells to break down until they die.

Anyone actually connected to Sephiroth and his proper integration of Jenova don't suffer that problem. Genesis and Hollander briefly wanted to take Cloud because they determined he was the last known source of pure, uncorrupted Jenova cells. And Zack of course doesn't let that happen.
 

OdaDaimyO

Conqueror of Sugar
AKA
Mochi Lover
Anyone actually connected to Sephiroth and his proper integration of Jenova don't suffer that problem.
But what about the men in cloaks than? They called them "Sephiroth Clones", because they looked more and more like him, isn't it? Wouldn't that indicating the degeneration process? I always pictured them what Lazard was going through in CC, becoming an "Angeal Clone". Or maybe... I need some sleep, good night! :wacky:

Edit: I get it now, I'm an idiot! The 'degeneration' refers only on the decay of cells. It has nothing to do with the hosts changing appearance. I apologize for wasting your time.
 
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Velorian

Lv. 1 Adventurer
My feeling is that they will keep the integrity of the overal story. It's kinda impossibly for them to not do that. From what I seen in the recent trailers, my thoughts on surprised are gonna be more about, oh this reminds of such and such in the original. There is too many parts of this major overarching story for them to skip out on or alter to much. It would have to much impact on the rest of events ahead.

That said, I do believe we will see a lot more content in between parts. I am sure they over analyzed what exact parts are vital to the story. So anything in between is atleast fair game for them to expand the game. Another point of interest is likely story depth. While none of us want to see story changes, there is more then enough room to make stories more detailed. Such as avalanche really being portrayed as terrorists or shinras propaganda machine. The motivation for barret is clear, but what of biggs, wedge and jessie? Why are they doing this? What got them involved?

Personally I see avalanche as the best and easiest expandable material. My guess the bulk of the game will be leading up to the plate getting blown to bits which will set in motion the "endgame" for part one. That said, there most likely will be an endboss or atleast something that will end our time in midgar. I have a feeling that will be slightly different then what we expect. Mostly cause they will need to have everyone sit up in their seat wanting more. So they might tease the outdoor world, there is never gonna be a long ass chat in kalm, atleast I think they will use this chat as a gateway between part 1 and part 2. I could also see them not giving us a "motor cycle" exit, but rather have the motor cycle exit or well escape from midgar the introduction "bombing run" of part 2. Just to have a reminder of midgar and where we came from when part 2 is finally here. That would make the motorvihicle the first boss in part 2. I would be very happy with this.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
But what about the men in cloaks than? They called them "Sephiroth Clones", because they looked more and more like him, isn't it?

No, a Sephiroth Copy is not someone who's a clone of Sephiroth in appearance or abilities.

They're someone who's been through the same procedure that creates SOLDIER and gives Jenova cells. Namely, being injected with Jenova cells and showered with Mako. They're "copies" in the sense, that they are copying the bio-experiment that gave Sephiroth his unique abilities. Given Jenova and mako.
 

Sprites

Waiting for something
AKA
Gems
One thing I'd like them to address plot wise and it's expand rather than change is how exactly Ifalna died on the way to escaping?

Shinra would never have wanted Ifalna to die she was too important to them and despite all the experiments etc I've always believed that she and Aerith were treated well on some level.

So what exactly happened on the way there?
 
Maybe Hojo injected her with something that gradually sapped her strength? Calls himself a scientist, but that man had no idea what he was doing half the time.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
No, she was probably shot.

Why would anyone think for a second Shinra Military Police grunts operate any differently? Shoot first ask questions later.

Hojo had to warn them not to accidentally wing Ifalna when she tried to flee Icicle Lodge and Gast got plugged when he wasn't even a threat.

By the time Ifalna was escaping she was the prized specimen, Aerith was. So she's expendable right there.

She broke out of the Science Division and got shot by security fleeing the Shinra Building.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Well, they're paid to be :mon:

There's no reason for them to act otherwise. Most times they're pissed at being looked down upon as expendable grunts, not being respected or being used as cannon fodder. So they have every reason to minimize risk, shoot first and ask questions later.
 

Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
I'm actually very curious to see how fans would react if they changed the big Aeris scene and made it a preventable event.

Before anyone rages, I absolutely disagree with the idea, and I think it would be disastrous for the narrative. With that said, it's still fascinating to speculate on the general reaction. People already seem (understandably) wary after hearing about these 'guardians of fate', or whatever they're called.
 
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