Questions on Cloud's internal struggles

PenguinLord27

PenguinLord27

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PenguinLord
I completed FFVII for the first time last week. It's now one of my favourite games ever. My favourite part of the story was probably the ongoing theme of Cloud's internal struggles, which is the main theme of my questions below.

For context: I watched a Youtube vid explaining the story, as I wanted to clear up some stuff, but it disagreed with my view on a couple of things and as a result I have a few minor questions. I would love to have these cleared up if anyone could help me out.

(1) It was my understanding that Cloud
created the illusion that he was SOLDIER: First Class as a coping mechanism to get over the failure and trauma he endured, rather than what was said in the explanatory video, which was “his memories got mixed with Zack’s when Zack died”. In my view Cloud buried this illusion deep down and made it a part of himself. Cloud then later in the game (during trippy lifestream sequence with Tifa) had to come to terms with the fact that he’d been living in denial in order to get a grip on himself and regain his consciousness and lead the party (thank you Cid for your valiant effort though!).
Are we sure this is not the case? This makes more sense to me.

(2) To confirm, is Cloud
in fact not a clone (made by Hojo), either of his previous self (killed by Septhiroth) or of Sephiroth, but was instead revived by Hojo? And is the reason he behaved like a clone of Sephiroth (i.e. able to be controlled by Sephiroth and drawn toward the Northern Cave), because Hojo infused him with Jenova cells and Sephiroth was somehow working together with/in control of Jenova from the Northern Cave? The reason this confused me is that I was ‘spoiled’, a few years ago before ever playing the game, that Cloud was actually a clone the whole time and it almost put me off playing the game lol. I therefore 100% believed Sephiroth when he said Cloud is a clone,
hence my confusion later on.

(3) Also, I have noticed that outside the game, Cloud is always referred to as
being 'SOLDIER: First Class', like it's a fact, e.g. in Super Smash Bros. 4 and Ultimate. But of course we find out in the story that this is not true at all. Rather than lying, I would think it would make sense for external references to Cloud to just ignore his association with SOLDIER. People who haven't played the game don't know what it is anyway. Anyone understand why this is done? As a kind of anti-spoiler maybe?

Thank you for reading!
 
JBedford

JBedford

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JBed
Just saying his memories getting mixed with Zack's is a very simple take. But basically Zack resembled Cloud's ideal. Due to Cloud's ideal, his shattered mind, and the abilities of Jenova--upon meeting Tifa, whom he told he told he wanted to join SOLDIER and made a promise to, the powers of Jenova reconstructed his mind using his memories and stories from Zack (and also Tifa's memories because Jenova, but I don't like that bit) to create a persona of Cloud's ideals.

Cloud's weak-will and dislike of himself enabled this to happen.

Only a small voice in his head, represented by his younger self, holds on to the truth. This is the grey text that speaks to Cloud throughout the game.

Cloud is not a "clone" in the typical sense, the game's terminology is confusing but it's intended as misdirection so at Northern Cave, Sephiroth can make Cloud believe he was never a real person before we find out what the clones actually are. The Sephiroth-clones (and SOLDIERs) have Jenova cells in them. Jenova can call its cell together--the Reunion. Strong-willed people such as those allowed in SOLDIER can resist this call, but the weak-willed people such as Cloud cannot.

Cloud is called a SOLDIER 1st Class to avoid spoilers. It's naturally how he was always promoted for the game originally, and that continues for most of his cameos.
 
AllGoodInMyHood

AllGoodInMyHood

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TomTom
#1

Cloud (and in fact Barret, Tifa and others to a less extent) lost something that have defined him. Nibelheim was burned down, mother killed, "friends" dead as well. Sephiroth to whom he looked up to turned from a personified goal to a nightmare. Cloud is the extension of his dreams shattered and at the same time living memory of Zack. When Zack was dying, Cloud was still in a heavy Mako-poisoning stage.

#2

Cloud isn't a clone, he was probably alive when Shinra took him and allowed Hojo to experiment. There is (AFAIK) no evidence/information that Cloud was dead and then got somehow revived or anything similar. So let's assume he's the same body and flesh.

#3

No matter how the story turned out, he IS First Class, just like Zack was, not on paper though.
 
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Cat on Mars

Cat on Mars

Actually not a cat
I'll fill in the blanks.

About 1, you're mostly right, saying that he's Zack or part Zack is an over-simplification that has been repeated for decades now. Cloud, unconsciously using the memetic qualities of Jenova that is now a part of him , creates a new persona based on his hopes and aspirations. He wants to be cool, he wants to act like a SOLDIER First Class, he wants to keep his cool with the ladies. But it's a lie, and he needs Tifa to remember him who he really is, because he doesn't remember why or when he created that persona, or how that happened; he doesn't recall being experimented on. Note how the moment Tifa hesitates and fails to validate Cloud's story (because from Tifa's POV he remember things he shouldn't know and he didn't know things he should remember), he gives in and believes all what Hojo or Sephiroth tell him.

SPOILERS 2 & 3: Was Cloud part of SOLDIER? What does the game mean when he's called a clone?
No, he never passed the test because he was too weak-minded to be considered a viable candidate for a Mako treatment, due to his self-doubt and low self-steem for his past failures like trying to save Tifa from a fall in Nibelheim and making himself an outcast because he didn't like the other kids.

Cloud isn't a SOLDIER First Class like Zack. Zack was simply infused with Mako and while that gave him advantages, it was his skill and killing count will to follow orders that put him where he was. Cloud is something more akin to Sephiroth himself since Hojo put some Jenova cells in him because Hojo was trying to reverse-engineering how Sephiroth was made. That's where the "clone" term comes from, they wanted to "clone" Sephiroth's power and habilities since Sephiroth was deemed dead back then. Cloud didn't die, he changed. Hojo thought Cloud was a failure because grunt Cloud couldn't handle Jenova mind-fucking and Hojo's "treatment" and suffered from heavy Mako poisoning later.

For all intents and purposes, Cloud's performance is similar to a SOLDIER, and his habilities make him to be mistaken for one. But he never made it.
 
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LicoriceAllsorts

LicoriceAllsorts

Donator
All SOLDIERs are injected with Jenova cells. It says so in the OG.

Cloud
I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER.
Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult.
It was just the same procedure they use when creating members of SOLDIER.
You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy.
Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......
For better or worse, only the strong can enter SOLDIER.
It has nothing to do with the Jenova Reunion.
But weak people...... like me, get lost in the whole thing.
The combination of Jenova cells, Sephiroth's strong will, and my own weakness are what created me.
Everyone knew that. I'm...... Cloud.
......the master of my own illusionary world.
Click to expand...
 
Cat on Mars

Cat on Mars

Actually not a cat
LicoriceAllsorts said:
All SOLDIERs are injected with Jenova cells. It says so in the OG.
Click to expand...
That explanation never made sense to me. SOLDIERs are injected with Jenova cells, so Hojo injected Zack a second time? For shits and giggles? And they are injected with Jenova cells but it doesn't have anything to do with the Reunion? I've never trusted that sudden infodump from Cloud in the OG, something's amiss there, be the translation or the actual script.

But thinking about it... does it mean that Jenova cells can only be completely "awaken" in a undeveloped mind without a sense of self, like Sephiroth in utero or Cloud's total brain stew via Mako poisoning?
More than 20 years later and I still learn things about this game, what do you know! :monster:
 
LicoriceAllsorts

LicoriceAllsorts

Donator
I can only tell you my own headcanon.
SOLDIER are injected with dead or attenuated Jenova cells.
Zack, Cloud and the other clones were injected either with live Jenova cells or with live Sephiroth cells, though I don't know where Hojo would have got those, since Sephiroth's physical body was lying at the bottom of the Lifestream. Maybe he keeps a supply in his lab? It's the kind of creepy thing he would do.
Hojo wasn't trying to make SOLDIERS when he made Cloud and the other clones, which is why I think the process is different. Zack was resistant to the process because he'd already been 'vaccinated', so to speak.
The ex-SOLDIER who runs the shop in Junon starts dressing up as a clone after Meteor is summoned, and he says something along the lines of, "Lately I just feel like dressing this way, I don't know why."

@ AllGoodInMyHood - I didn't re-write the game script! That's what it says right there: "Someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells......"
 
Makoeyes987

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Yes, Zack and Cloud weren't injected with just Jenova cells, they were injected with S-Cells. Sephiroth's own Jenova cells. Given the fact that he was a SOLDIER and had routine physicals, it's pretty easy to figure out Hojo was collecting and harvesting Sephiroth's cells on the down-low.

And the Remake shows us the Sephiroth Copy #02 was a former SOLDIER. Just being a SOLDIER doesn't make you immune to Sephiroth's power.

All SOLDIERs get Jenova cells as part of their augmentation. That's a fact since the OG.
 
Cat on Mars

Cat on Mars

Actually not a cat
AllGoodInMyHood said:
All SOLDIERs are bathe im Mako. Jenova cells are only for those, on who Hojo conducted experiments.
Click to expand...
I thought the same thing, but that OG dialogue makes me doubt.


LicoriceAllsorts said:
I can only tell you my own headcanon."
Click to expand...
Your headcanon makes too much sense, it must be wrong. :monster:
Now, in all seriousness, your headcanon makes an awful lot of sense. SOLDIERs getting a weakened version of Jenova cells would explain how Zack, Cloud and the ex-SOLDIER had different reactions.

ETA: I totally forgot about that S-cells Compilation stuff, @Makoeyes987 is right.
 
AllGoodInMyHood

AllGoodInMyHood

Pro Adventurer
AKA
TomTom
I'm gonna do some research on this dialogue...

Edit: Looking at the script now, where in the game this dialogue actually appears?
 
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Cat on Mars

Cat on Mars

Actually not a cat
I'm reading the script and... it's hilarious! The disjointed dialogue, Cid's swearing in symbols, the seemingly random events, I didn't remember the painted door part lol.
I always forget how crazy this game is.

Vincent
Hmm...... Looks like escape is their best skill.
Click to expand...
I hope the Remake makes Vincent even more sarcastic, that would create more great banter between party members when Cloud's out.
 
Makoeyes987

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
LicoriceAllsorts said:
OK.
I wonder where Hojo got him from. I thought all the clones were survivors of the Nibelheim incident.
Click to expand...

No, they're actually not.

In fact, Hojo has been making Sephiroth Copies since all the way back in 1990, when Aerith was a child captive at the Shinra Building. While Sephiroth was alive. This is revealed in the FFVII Remake World Preview story. There's hundreds and hundreds of Sephiroth Copies out there.
 
LicoriceAllsorts

LicoriceAllsorts

Donator
Holy guacamole. How many did he need to make? Given that all he wanted to do was prove his Reunion theory.
When did he think Reunion was going to start?
Did he ever try to kick-start it?

I mean...it doesn't really alter the nature of the atrocity of the Nibelheim incident, and I know it isn't exactly a retcon, but still... I always thought Hojo siezed the disaster at Nibelheim as a unique opportunity to do something he couldn't try otherwise, but obviously he simply couldn't resist making Sephiroth copies whenever he got the chance.
 
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