Questions on Cloud's internal struggles

[Makoeyes987]

Hojo did seize the disaster.

....To make even more Sephiroth Copies

I mean it makes sense. He's been studying Jenova for his entire career. It merely reflects his obsession and lack of humanity. The novel is pretty twisted. But if you were ever Mako Poisoned or injured severely under Shinra's employment and you were of lesser socio-economic status...

... You just might find yourself shuffling around and drooling on yourself while wearing a black robe.

 

[Cat on Mars]

He's Hojo, he's nuts. Thinking about insane stuff like what's the better way to breed Aerith (a talking lab-rat dog? A S-Type SOLDIER? Nah, let's use all the SOLDIERs available!) and adding "for science!" afterwards is his real speciality.
I keep wondering how the hell the guy got all that funding, tho.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Hojo and the rest of his colleagues delivered some of most powerful and profitable developments Shinra could ever dream of. As long as he kept producing, he could keep choppin' and injectin'.

 

[Cat on Mars]

And that's why the title of the game is "Final Fantasy". In real life, he would have been kicked out of the Science department with a severance package years ago.

 

[AllGoodInMyHood]

What you'd expect from a man that experimented on his unborn child... Sounds like CCP-type of shit :p

 

[Cat on Mars]

Lurecia was nuttier than Hojo, locking herself in a crystal was the only good idea that woman ever had. I don't care if she was right about Omega and whatever passes as "science" in FFVII, everybody in that Science department was nuttier than a boatload of trail mix.
I read those Lucretia doujin series years ago and now I can't believe Hojo's actually Sephiroth father, fml.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I can't see how any of Hojo's research projects were ever profitable for Shinra. They didn't sell the products of his experiments afaik.
What they sold was mako energy, and manufactured materia I guess, and other useful stuff made by their subsidiaries. The money they made from that underwrote the science department activities.
The science department was one humungeous money pit. Deepground was another.
Too bad Hojo didn't devote his time to breeding really useful stuff. Like chocobos that can fly. Or fish that can ride bicycles.
Wouldn't it be hilarious if, when Rufus takes over, he finds Shinra, Inc is actually in the red, thanks to the science department spending more gil than is generated by all the other departments combined?

 

[Cat on Mars]

Too bad Hojo didn't devote his time to breeding really useful stuff. Like chocobos that can fly. Or fish that can ride bicycles.

Hojo would demand to inspect all the mating happening inside the facilities.
Imagine some poor lab assistant hearing "Yes, yes! Fascinating!" all day, every day.

Wouldn't it be hilarious if, when Rufus takes over, he finds Shinra, Inc is actually in the red, thanks to the science department spending more gil than is generated by all the other departments combined?

Didn't Hojo left ShinRa to chill in Costa del Sol after Rufus became president?
Maybe he got his severance package after all.

 

[AllGoodInMyHood]

I read those Lucretia doujin series years ago and now I can't believe Hojo's actually Sephiroth father, fml.

Which doujins? :-D

As for Shinra backing Hojo, even in Remake there's a line from President mentioning that he will use any opportunity that he can seize in order to achieve his goal.

 

[Cat on Mars]

You might regret what you find, but you asked so...

Spoiler

the title is Lucrecia (I don't know how many parts that thing has, I stopped reading after seeing a heavily pregnant Lucrecia getting gangbanged by a bunch of randos) by Kokonokiya - Kokonoki Nao. The good thing is that Hojo doesn't get much action, so... yay?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Do you think President Shinra has ever visited the inside of the Drum?

＠ Mako, I'm still wondering about this SOLDIER being turned into a Sephiroth clone thing. In the OG, soldiers, i.e. regular troopers are referred to as 神羅の兵士, where 兵士, heishi, just means a soldier or soldiers. "兵士" is the word the original script uses to refer to Cloud in Nibelheim, when he's 兵士B. It's also the word used in the new novella for the unlucky Shinra peeps who are turned into Sephiroth clones (black robe, tattoo). 　In the OG game script, SOLDIER is written in katakana, ソルジャ. This word doesn't appear at all in the new novella. I don't see why Nojima would start writing SOLDIER as 兵士 when that only means 'soldier' but isn't pronounced SOLDIER.

I wonder if someone who knows more about Japanese than I can shed some light on this.

 

[Cat on Mars]

Did President Shinra visit any department or lab at all? Honestly, I've never seen him outside his office or a meeting room. And I don't think he would bother looking at any project that wouldn't involve more Mako and more money.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

To chime in here...

The CC Keyword guide more or less confirms how the SOLDIER process works. It's a mix of mako with Jenova Cells. The idea seems to be emulating how Sephiroth got a mix of mako and Jenova Cells, just much, much later in biological development. The main effect being that while SOLDIER does get a lot stronger, they will never reach Sephiroth's level of Jenova integration.

However... I actually can't find any mention that Hojo used Jenova Cells in Cloud and Zack's experiments outside of the OG. The point was to make them into Sephrioth Copies, not SOLDIERs (and one of them did have Jenova Cells already). Cloud does say he has some Jenova Cells... but I wonder if that's just him giving the simplest explanation as to how he got the physical characteristics of a SOLDIER. There's also the wrinkle that by the time Cloud is telling them what happened to him, Sephrioth and Jenova have more or less merged, so the difference between them is pretty much moot. Given how out of it Cloud is towards the end of his time with Hojo, I wonder how much he really remembers from that time.

The people who really have an issue with getting double-doses of Jenova traits are Genesis and Angeal. They've got whatever traits they got from Gillian. And then then they went and applied for SOLDIER and got even more J Cells and mako when they got in.

Zack also has double doses too. He's got the J Cells from SOLDIER, and then Hojo gives him more S Cells. Except with Zack... it doesn't really seem to do anything to him. At least at the time... If it turns out Zack isn't dead, I kinda expect that him being a Sephiroth Clone is going to turn out to be a major issue. We have seen Sephiroth Clones who used to be SOLDIERs be under Sephrioth's control before...

We also might be looking at a Compilation Retcon here. Where they realized the "Sephiroth Cones" in the OG were fundamentally no different than SOLDIERs and decides to narrow down what made something a "Clone" in general.

 

[ForceStealer]

Honestly I can't make heads or tails of the S-cells thing.

But the Sephiroth clones being fundamentally no different from SOLDIERs was definitely the point in the original game. Cloud says so directly in the game, that the process was no different. Because the Jenova and Mako exposure if you don't have a strong sense of self will be dominated by Jenova and/or Mako poisoning. The implication is that Cloud did not fail to make SOLDIER due to physical qualifications, but psych evals. He was not deemed to have the self-confidence and security to handle it.
So Hojo's experiment was exactly that - give the SOLDIER treatment to people who almost certainly cannot handle it (especially due it being immediately after such a trauma).

Why he thought giving Zack a second dose would do anything is anyone's guess. But A) again, maybe he through the trauma would be enough to shake his ego enough, or B) it's Hojo. Master of the scientific method, he ain't

When it comes to the S-cell stuff, though, I kinda check out. As I think that just jsut be regular ol' Jenova cells. And also I had no idea about whatever the hell Mako's talking about.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's far more simple than most are interpreting it.

S-Cells are Sephiroth's own cells. Literally. They are cells that come from the man, Sephiroth.

Sephiroth's cells are Jenova cells. He is it's son. His physiology while humanoid, is actually not fully human. He's a hybrid Jenova-spawn, meaning his cells function the same as Jenova cells. This is why Jenova's own cells can allow Sephiroth to regenerate, create a new body, etc. The important thing to consider is that every Jenova piece, every Jenova cell, may function as an individual organism or rejoin with the larger collective of Jenova cells and allow it to regrow/regenerate.

Sephiroth controls and benefits from this and it becomes an extension of his own body. Jenova and Sephiroth, despite their... "familial" relationship, are in essence the same. Jenova is his cache of usable biological matter and dark magical energy that allows him to manifest his unique powers. Those Jenova cells may merge with him and are completely compatible with his own cells, meaning.. They're his cells, and vice versa.

So Cloud, as a Sephiroth Copy, was administered Jenova cells. That statement from FFVII OG is true. However, the clarification we now know, is that Cloud didn't get his Jenova cells from the extraterrestrial specimen. He got them from Sephiroth. Sephiroth is composed of Jenova cells of his own type, unique to him.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah but I didn't really like that in Crisis Core either. Because I thought the whole problem with the G-Type SOLDIERs is that they got their Jenova "second-hand," so to speak, while Sephiroth and his copies just got them straight from the source.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah but I didn't really like that in Crisis Core either. Because I thought the whole problem with the G-Type SOLDIERs is that they got their Jenova "second-hand," so to speak, while Sephiroth and his copies just got them straight from the source.

Genesis and the G-Type SOLDIERs he created don't have pure Jenova cells. He has cells with Jenova's genetic traits. Genesis only has Gillian's mutated, infected cells. Through them, he can manifest aspects of Jenova's mimetic abilities however because they are true not Jenova cells, the utilization of these abilities shorten his lifespan and cause degradation. Which ultimately results in the transformation into a monster.

Sephiroth can manifest all of Jenova's abilities because he is Jenova. He is the same species, in a sense. While he doesn't literally make a person a copy through using his cells, this is misleading. Sephiroth Copies can manifest his appearance (as we see in the Remake), but only temporarily and at Sephiroth's direct control. They aren't locked into being his copy, they are just avatars of his will.

That's why Genesis and Angeal are failed attempts at creating Jenova spawn.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Not exactly... How people get Jenova genes does not seem to effect if they break down or not.

What is seems to come down to is if a particular Jenova "strain" can naturally pass it's own cells to other organisms outside itself. Which in turn seems to be linked to how well Jenova genes integrated themselves with whoever it's in. Sephiroth's cells are too stable for him to naturally make clones. So he doesn't break down. The Tsivets are the same way; no making clones but also no degradation. SOLDIERs are is this category too as are S Clones.

The people who don't have stable Jenova integration is Genesis and Angeal, and all their clones. Genesis and Angeal don't need Hollander to make clones for them the same way Hojo makes clones of Sephiroth. They can do that fine on their own in the same way Jenova passed her virus on to the Cetra. The problem is, this somehow messes up their own DNA in the process.

Genesis and Angeal also probably did get more Jenova Cells and mako added to them when they did make SOLDIER. I don't see why they wouldn't as all the other SOLDIERs get those as well. So having more Jenova Cells added to them might be a contributing factor in making their issues worse. It's worth noting Gillian never develops any problems. As far as if Genesis and Angeal got mako earlier than when they went into SOLDIER... no where I looked for good info on the Gillian Proejct mentioned mako. So maybe Gillian had it, maybe she didn't.

As a bit of a preview... here's a WIP I've been working of how Jenova' Cells map out....

 

[ForceStealer]

View attachment 6462

Thanks I hate it

 

[Makoeyes987]

Not exactly... How people get Jenova genes does not seem to effect if they break down or not.

What is seems to come down to is if a particular Jenova "strain" can naturally pass it's own cells to other organisms outside itself. Which in turn seems to be linked to how well Jenova genes integrated themselves with whoever it's in. Sephiroth's cells are too stable for him to naturally make clones. So he doesn't break down. The Tsivets are the same way; no making clones but also no degradation. SOLDIERs are is this category too as are S Clones.

Isn't that just the same thing? If Genesis or whoever gets the mismatched cells to manifest Jenova powers, but due to the fact they are not pure Jenova while manifesting said powers they suffer a downside, isn't that because their inadequate cellular structure was unable to handle it all?

That's what Hojo says to Zack in Chapter 4 when he talks to him about "Hollander's freak show." After Zack claims he doesn't feel that different from being modified by the experimental fusion chamber he stepped in, Hojo cooly says,

That's just the limit of your cellular structure. Or perhaps you would like to be altered to the point of degradation? Like some second-rate scientist I know has done?

And as explained in the game and the CC Complete Guide:

SOLDIER Degradation

A symptom of a particular flaw inherit within the G-Series SOLDIERs and their copies. It is due to an imperfect integration of Jenova cells into their bodies, and the symptoms worsen as their genetic information is spread to other beings. The first signs of degradation are changes in skin quality and hair color, and as the body’s natural immune system is damaged the subject’s skin and muscle tissue begin to degrade. Furthermore, the subject looses their ability to restrain themselves from giving in to brutal outbursts, which can temporarily raise their skills in combat, but they run the risk of eventually devolving into monsters.

This all stems from the flawed and imperfect integration of Jenova inherent to G-Types. Genesis never got pure Jenova cells, instead they were mutated cells from Gillian. Because of this, he will inevitably degrade when trying to manifest the powers and capabilities a "child" of Jenova could utilize without drawback.

The people who don't have stable Jenova integration is Genesis and Angeal, and all their clones. Genesis and Angeal don't need Hollander to make clones for them the same way Hojo makes clones of Sephiroth. They can do that fine on their own in the same way Jenova passed her virus on to the Cetra. The problem is, this somehow messes up their own DNA in the process.

Well, Angeal and Genesis do still require mako and whatever Copy Technology Shinra Scientists utilized. It's why Sephiroth and Zack found those tubes/capsules with monsters and people in them, slowly morphing into copies. They still gotta be bathed in Mako energy and given time to cook. Sephiroth Copies are made the same way SOLDIERs are made, too. You give them the cells and bathe them in Mako. Sephiroth Copies just don't physically mutate into a copy of their cellular donor. They just mentally snap and lose their ego.

Genesis and Angeal also probably did get more Jenova Cells and mako added to them when they did make SOLDIER. I don't see why they wouldn't as all the other SOLDIERs get those as well. So having more Jenova Cells added to them might be a contributing factor in making their issues worse. It's worth noting Gillian never develops any problems. As far as if Genesis and Angeal got mako earlier than when they went into SOLDIER... no where I looked for good info on the Gillian Proejct mentioned mako. So maybe Gillian had it, maybe she didn't.

No they actually didn't, because remember, they were being watched to analyzed for their capabilities as G-Type SOLDIERs. That's why Sephiroth was prevented from donating blood to treat Genesis's wound after his training room accident. Hollander specifically wanted to keep Genesis and presumably Angeal away from having pure Jenova cells administered to them. Either to hold it over their head, or to analyze their capabilities as Project G.

As a bit of a preview... here's a WIP I've been working of how Jenova' Cells map out....
View attachment 6462

...That is really fucking cool and accurate. That about sums it up

A minor quibble, but I would put Zack somewhere right in the middle of SOLDIER and the Sephiroth project, because while he didn't exhibit any of the qualities of a Sephiroth Copy, he was given S-Cells and made part of the Sephiroth Copy project. Zack has the unique distinction of having been administered Jenova cells AND S-cells.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

...That is really fucking cool and accurate. That about sums it up

Thank you! Me and Cae on discord were getting... tired of explaining this stuff over and over again... and finally decided to make something we could refer back to.

A minor quibble, but I would put Zack somewhere right in the middle of SOLDIER and the Sephiroth project, because while he didn't exhibit any of the qualities of a Sephiroth Copy, he was given S-Cells and made part of the Sephiroth Copy project. Zack has the unique distinction of having been administered Jenova cells AND S-cells.

This is super rough and was pretty much me just making sure i had all the "lines of inheritance" set out right! There's... a bunch of layout and graphic stuff to make it look all pretty to still do! I'll probably end up doing something similar.

 

[Cat on Mars]

As a bit of a preview... here's a WIP I've been working of how Jenova' Cells map out....

Seriously now, that was a vey informative and concise post, I'm saving it. Good job explaining all that stuff.
I'm still calling you nerd, tho.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

This all stems from the flawed and imperfect integration of Jenova inherent to G-Types. Genesis never got pure Jenova cells, instead they were mutated cells from Gillian. Because of this, he will inevitably degrade when trying to manifest the powers and capabilities a "child" of Jenova could utilize without drawback.

T
The one problem I have with this... is that Angeal ends up getting degredation, but he would have had exposure to Jenova Cells while Gillian was pregnant with him in addition to Gillian's cells. So I think it's more complicated than just "Genesis got wrong genes from Gillian". Gillian herself isn't degrading or has Jenova traits. Genesis himself is pretty much a clone of Gillian just as Hollander is. At least to start with. Neither Genesis or Angeal even had Jenova traits untill they became SOLDIERs. Which kinda begs the question to me of what would have changed when they became SOLDIERs to "wake up" their Jenova traits. The easiest answer I can think of is that they finally got either (a) mako exposure or (b) J Cells or even a mix of both.

No they actually didn't, because remember, they were being watched to analyzed for their capabilities as G-Type SOLDIERs. Hollander specifically wanted to keep Genesis and presumably Angeal away from having pure Jenova cells administered to them.

I read this as Hollander not wanting to get S Cells brought into the mix. Which if what we see when the G Clones get Zack's cells was... probably a a good thing.

It's also worth noting nothing happens until Genesis (a) gets wounded and doesn't heal and (b) he finds out about his past finally. And that's what really kicks the major degredation off. Which kinda begs the question of what was so different about that wound compared to... any other time he was hurt before. Since I can't see Genesis getting all the way to SOLDIER 1st and not getting hurt before...

I think Angeal and Genesis would have gotten tipped off about everything much sooner if they hadn't gotten at least the SOLDIER mako treatments when they made SOLDIER. It's practically an open secret at the point. The two most powerful guys after Sephiroth not gett mako treatments? That would be super weird. Also... given that they already were thought of as failures, I can see both Hollander or Hojo deciding they might as well give them more stuff and see if anything happens later... It's not like Genesis and Angeal were forced to go into SOLDIER as far as I can tell, it was a coincidence...

Seriously now, that was a vey informative and concise post, I'm saving it. Good job explaining all that stuff.
I'm still calling you nerd, tho.

I happily will claim that title!

 

[Cat on Mars]

Which if what we see when the G Clones get Zack's cells was... probably a a good thing.

That's simply what happens if you are crazy enough to eat Zack's hair.

Full scene if someone is interested:

I happily will claim that title!

On this thread, I crown you King of nerds*. You've earned it.

*Valid only for this thread. This title means absolutely nothing and you can't rule over nerds.

 

[Clement Rage]

Shinra was a Weapons manufacturer before it was a mako company. There's probably a market for the most stable monsters. And he did create SOLDIER, which are the keystone of Shinra's armed forces. Hojo, nuts as he is, gets things done.

Spoiler: headcanon

People seem to generally have a physical limit and a separate mental limit to exposure to Mako, because Mako isn't just goop, it's liquid memory.

SOLDIER candidates are screened for both their physical resilience and mental stability. As such, they're the people with the most resistance to it, and the people most likely to escape side effects. The more resilient you are, the more Mako can be applied without ill effects.

Cloud physically didn't decay, but mentally his mind fragmented. Zack was unaffected by the same dose, as he was already resilient by virtue of his SOLDIER screening him for resistance to this exact thing.

Mentally, if you can't take Mako concentrations, you lose your identity. Fuhito's Ravens and Genesis' copies exploit this by giving them a new identity that suits their purposes, Genesis copies himself onto people that have lost their original identity, which allows them to physically take more Mako and gain power, but they don't really have minds apart from 'kill things'. Fuhito does the same thing, and ends up with powerful Ravens that don't really think (with a few exceptions). Angeal can do it as well, but prefers to tame monsters by giving them his principles.

Jenova as well can take control of people that have lost their identities enough to not control themselves. She tries it with retired SOLDIER in Junon, but as an ex-SOLDIER, he's strong enough to resist the call to the crater, but affected enough to dust off his Sephiroth cosplay.

Hojo delberately broke people and gave them no new identity, just to see what would happen.

Physically, there are two potential effects, depending on how well your cells can adapt. If your cells try to adapt past their physical limit, they get warped into monster forms.. If they don't try to adapt, they degrade. The Science Dept can invoke specific mutations sometimes to try to get around the physical limit, hence the 'one wing' thing.

Sephiroth, being the most resilient person to this kind of treatment, doesn't mutate unless he wants to, and also isn't mentally controlled. (He cracked due to normal mental trauma, not his cell structure)

Deepground is an attempt to bypass these limits by just throwing Mako at as many people as possible and seeing what sticks. Many of the subjects die or lose their identity, becoming the beasty things. Most of the others are a bit enhanced, but not that much more than normal people, and are left dependent on regular Mako treatments to keep them functioning, and maybe need some of Weiss' identity to keep functional.

The Tsviets are just freaks of nature, with unique responses to what was done to them. Rosso is physically perfect but completely nuts, Shelke is mentally fine but physically weak, Azul unlike everyone else has perfect control of his mutation. Nero is weak but his swirly black stuff means that doesn't really matter.

Weiss responded so well to Mako alone that he was never exposed to Jenova. Like Sephiroth, he suffered no ill effects, although he might be a bit mentally damaged (we don't really get to see his non-Hojo personality)

SOLDIER is still the only mako enhancing program that doesn't have any ill effects (done correctly)
. Everything else just tries to compensate for horrible side effects with limited success.