Questions on Cloud's internal struggles

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I can only believe there's a market for monsters when I see it in game. And I would like to see it.
SOLDIER are effective, but they're not profitable. Except indirectly. I mean, what's the cost:benefit analysis on the Wutai War? Shinra didn't even build a reactor there in the end.

Weren't Genesis and Angeal deemed failures because, like Sephiroth, they weren't Cetra and couldn't reveal the location of the promised land? The original purpose of the Jenova project, both S branch and G branch, was to re-create a Cetra and then tap into their (presumably genetic) knowledge of the Planet and mako. Wasn't it? Nobody realised that injecting Jenova cells into human beings produced, not Cetra, but super-warriors, until they tried it. It must have come as a surprise to them, since Cetra, in their mythology, are characterised as peaceful planet-hugging hippies. Maybe this is what helped Gast to realise that Jenova was actually an alien.

Genesis and Angeal were subsequently shown to be failures in another way, in that physiologically they were less stable than Sephiroth. We don't really know at what point Hojo and the science department knew this.

 

[ForceStealer]

I would guess the Wutai thing was more of an intangible thing about showing that someone couldn't stand against them then about an actual reactor.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

So why do you think Wutai stood against them? What was the issue, if not Wutai refusing to let Shinra build reactors on Wuteng soil? President Shinra is a man who needs an excuse to launch a war. He must have had some causus belli, even if it was manufactured by him.

Anyway, my point is that wars and armies cost money, they don't make money. The people who make money in wars are the people who supply the armies, but if you own the armies and you also supply the armies, you're basically just eating your own tail.

 

[ForceStealer]

So why do you think Wutai stood against them? What was the issue, if not Wutai refusing to let Shinra build reactors on Wuteng soil? President Shinra is a man who needs an excuse to launch a war. He must have had some causus belli, even if it was manufactured by him.

Well I mean I do think Shinra tried to build a reactor and that's why Wutai resisted. I just meant that I think it became more about the show of force for Shinra than the actual reactor.

Must've just been a write-off for them

 

[Roger]

So why do you think Wutai stood against them? What was the issue, if not Wutai refusing to let Shinra build reactors on Wuteng soil? President Shinra is a man who needs an excuse to launch a war. He must have had some causus belli, even if it was manufactured by him.

Anyway, my point is that wars and armies cost money, they don't make money. The people who make money in wars are the people who supply the armies, but if you own the armies and you also supply the armies, you're basically just eating your own tail.

Shinra makes other things beside Reactors and the reactor require resources to make too. At the end of the Wutai, the only worldpower left that stood in the way of Shinra accumulating all the Planet's resources was destroyed. Thanks to Hojo's SOLDIERs. That was profitable.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Wars are rarely more profitable than doing business. In the same way, colonies are expensive; it's cheaper to let your colonies become politically independent while you continue to control their economies and run them for your own benefit.

Now, if Godo or whoever runs Wutai had decided to pull a Japan and isolate itself from the rest of the world, then I could see Shinra resorting to gunboat diplomacy to force it open.

The point I'm driving at here, which may not be obvious, is that President Shinra was not motivated solely by profit. I'm assuming he was intelligent enough to know that he needed to balance incomings with outgoings, but he had things he wanted to do with all that money he was making, and those things were not in and of themselves necessarily profitable in the short term.

 

[Roger]

Wars are rarely more profitable than doing business. In the same way, colonies are expensive; it's cheaper to let your colonies become politically independent while you continue to control their economies and run them for your own benefit.

Now, if Godo or whoever runs Wutai had decided to pull a Japan and isolate itself from the rest of the world, then I could see Shinra resorting to gunboat diplomacy to force it open.

The point I'm driving at here, which may not be obvious, is that President Shinra was not motivated solely by profit. I'm assuming he was intelligent enough to know that he needed to balance incomings with outgoings, but he had things he wanted to do with all that money he was making, and those things were not in and of themselves necessarily profitable in the short term.

The money you lose in war loses meaning when at the end of the war, you own everything. There's no place left for money or whatever money can buy you to go other then Shinra's pocket. The SOLDIER army is part of what gave Shinra that absolute might. President Shinra was motivated more then financial gain but regardless, having Sephiroth as an asset to call upon to deal with stuff was viewed as a positive thing for a ruler not without any cause. There's reason to view Hojo's work as something that adds something to the company rather then detracts from it.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

OK, you are moving the goalposts of this discussion so that it's impossible to disagree with you.
My original point is that an army is not in and of itself profitable. You can't sell an army in the same way that you can sell materia or electricity or takeaways. Especially when you're literally the only power on the planet.
Clearly a strong military is an asset, in the broader sense, to any country. But you wouldn't record it as an asset on the national balance sheet. In order to maintain itself in power Shinra needs to continue to spend money on and invest in its military. The money it gains from having such a large military is earned indirectly, not directly by the military.
If you wish to argue that an army is a direct net money earner rather than a direct net money cost, please do so.

Aside from SOLDIER, most of Hojo's biological 'inventions' never found their way out of the lab and into the field. Normally when you fight them, they're 'escaped specimens'. They literally have no use; they simply exist, as proof of concept or whatever. That's why I say the science department is not profitable. It costs more to run than it earns directly. Unlike, say, a pharmaceutical lab, which creates products which can ultimately be sold to earn large profits.

(It's just astonishing to me that no one said to President Shinra, "Hey, you know, if we drop the Sector 7 plate we might expose our top secret underground lab and release some incredibly dangerous top secret human experiments that will make Shinra look really, really, really bad," - or that if they did, he simply puffed on his cigar and said, "Eh, who cares?")

 

[Makoeyes987]

Shinra doesn't need to profit off the military.

Conquering territory is profit.

The fact Shinra has dominated Wutai and every corner of the globe allows Shinra unlimited access to whatever resources he needs to extract and take it for his own purposes.

That's why military might is profitable. You're thinking too small-scale in reference to profit and and investment. The very act of imperial, conquering war creates profit for Shinra Inc because that's all new potential markets opened up. Those are all possible spots for Mako extraction. The people are now part of the system of Shinra and forced consumers. Shinra's complete unrestrained access to all corners of the world means he's got unrestrained market share and security. Overwhelming might makes him immune to any potential insurrection or market loss because he'll take what he wants by force.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

No I know it doesn't. I never claimed that it did.
My original comment was with regard to the science department. I said it wasn't profitable because nothing it produced was ever for sale.
Somebody pointed out that it produced SOLDIER, and SOLDIER wins wars, and that ultimately leads to more resources and power for Shinra. True.
However, SOLDIER is now its own department, separate from the science department. I think Heidegger's in charge. Since creating SOLDIER, afaik Hojo's department hasn't produced anything which seems to be of any use to the military. Or any use at all, really (unless I've forgotten some egregious example, which I probably have). It's not profitable in any sense.
Clearly if you own and control every single thing on the entire planet, notions of profitabilty cease to apply. You can't make a profit because you already own everything there is or could be. But I wasn't the one who raised the question of the science department's profitability, or of profitability generally, in the first place. Makes you wonder why they even bother to discuss the budget at board meetings. (Yeah, don't tell me, Shinra controls his directors by doling out cash).

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Genesis and Angeal were subsequently shown to be failures in another way, in that physiologically they were less stable than Sephiroth. We don't really know at what point Hojo and the science department knew this.

The CC Scenario Q & A has a bit to say about this...

Q2-1: What is the time difference between the start of Jenova Project S and Jenova Project G? And out of Genesis, Sephiroth and Angeal, is Genesis the eldest?

A2-1: Project S and Project G began at roughly the same time. They were lead by Hojo and Hollander respectively, and the department head Gast has little participation in either project.

The order of their births goes Angeal & Genesis > Sephiroth, but it’s fine to think of them as being around the same age. Angeal and Genesis were created at roughly the same time, and were deemed as failed projects when they were babies. Project S took the results from Project G and added further improvements, so Sephiroth’s birth was later than Angeal and Genesis’.

Q2-2: At what point in time was Project G deemed to be a failure?

A2-2: The verdict on the outcome of project had already been made when Angeal and Genesis were babies.

The Jenova Project was originally started with the aim of creating an Ancient. They didn’t get the data they had expected from Angeal and Genesis, and they were considered failures (although Hollander states in the game that Angeal was a success, at the time Project G was seen to be a complete failure). At the same time Project G was frozen, and abandoned.

On the other hand, Sephiroth showed the anticipated merit, and was deemed a success. Thanks to this Hojo seizes control of the science department, and Hollander loses his position within the department.

So Genesis and Angeal were thought to be failures by Shin-Ra long before Shin-Ra ever found out about the degradation. The reason why they even got to grow up in Banora instead of at Shin-Ra was because they were failures already.

Weren't Genesis and Angeal deemed failures because, like Sephiroth, they weren't Cetra and couldn't reveal the location of the promised land? The original purpose of the Jenova project, both S branch and G branch, was to re-create a Cetra and then tap into their (presumably genetic) knowledge of the Planet and mako. Wasn't it? Nobody realised that injecting Jenova cells into human beings produced, not Cetra, but super-warriors, until they tried it. It must have come as a surprise to them, since Cetra, in their mythology, are characterised as peaceful planet-hugging hippies.

The Cetra being "peaceful planet-hugging hippies" is... largly an interpretation fanon has, I've found. You even get Yuffie in the OG pointing out that if the Cetra were really so peaceful, why are the materia spells largely offensive in nature? Not to mention that there were different Cetra tribes that Jenova kills that were not at the Northern Crater, so at the very least, there were different groups of them. And then you have the Cetra doing... whatever it was they did to seal Jenova. I can't see that not being some kind of huge conflict given how AVLANCHE's fights against the Jenova parts go.

The irony is, Sephiroth was declared a successful Cetra re-creation before it was even discovered Jenova wasn't a Cetra. Whatever Shin-Ra thought the Cetra were like, Jenova's body was similar enough that they thought it was a Cetra. As was Sephiroth's body and abilities.

The thing is... given what Aerith can do, I'm not sure they were that off the mark either. Jenova has an aspect of it that is more mental than physical. She could read people's minds and see their memories. Aerith has even more of those tendencies in the Remake than in the OG. Sephrioth himself can mess with the Lifestream to the point even Aerith is overwhelmed. Aerith in Case of Lifestream - White even contemplates doing something similar to what Sephiroth does in AC. That is... leaving the Lifestream for a time.

When I think of what types of stories Shin-Ra would have about Cetra... a humanesque being with superpowers sounds about right. We even know from cut material in the OG that the Cetra would expose people to mako. Which sounds like what the SOLDIER program was doing even before Jenova cells were added into the mix.

If I had to make a guess at why Sephiroth was thought of as a success while Genesis and Angeal weren't... I'd think it was because Sephiroth had a very obvious touch of "not human" about him as soon as he was born. And Shin-Ra had no reason at the time to think the "not human" part wasn't a Cetra. Genesis and Angeal don't have anything about them that suggests they are anything other than very strong humans. But given what we have Cloud surviving as as kid... "strong humans" probably didn't mean much.

 

[Roger]

No I know it doesn't. I never claimed that it did.
My original comment was with regard to the science department. I said it wasn't profitable because nothing it produced was ever for sale.
Somebody pointed out that it produced SOLDIER, and SOLDIER wins wars, and that ultimately leads to more resources and power for Shinra. True.
However, SOLDIER is now its own department, separate from the science department. I think Heidegger's in charge. Since creating SOLDIER, afaik Hojo's department hasn't produced anything which seems to be of any use to the military. Or any use at all, really (unless I've forgotten some egregious example, which I probably have). It's not profitable in any sense.
Clearly if you own and control every single thing on the entire planet, notions of profitabilty cease to apply. You can't make a profit because you already own everything there is or could be. But I wasn't the one who raised the question of the science department's profitability, or of profitability generally, in the first place. Makes you wonder why they even bother to discuss the budget at board meetings. (Yeah, don't tell me, Shinra controls his directors by doling out cash).

SOLDIER, the people are part of Heidegger's army, but they are still injected with Jenova by doctors and subjected to Mako showers by doctors. The Shock Troopers are enhanced with pharmacological as well as reinforced suits, made by Hojo and Scarlet's departments, the units themselves work under Heidegger. The Bloodhounds that the security division use are also enhanced with genetic modifications, the Monodrives that help guard Shinra facilities are cited to be created by Hojo's division.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

@ Obsidian, That makes sense.
Though the Cetra seemed to be to be presented as peaceful people living in harmony with the Planet in that video you watch in the Shinra cinema, so I don't think we can say it's just fanon. And Yuffie seems surprised by the warlike nature of the Cetra. If their warlike nature were well known, she wouldn't need to comment on it.
Maybe that material was cut for a reason?
Anyway, do you disagree with me, then, that Shinra's objective in trying to recreate a Cetra was to find the Promised Land? You think they were actually trying to create super-soldiers? Because Sephiroth was clearly unable to find the Promised Land; if they thought he could, one wonders why.
You don't think the ongoing power struggle between Hollander and Hojo had anything to do with Sephiroth being deemed a success and raised in Shinra, while the other two were deemed failures and relegated to Banora? (At least they weren't put down; that's something).

@ Roger: Do the doctors work for Hojo's department or Heidegger's department? There's no reason to assume that every scientist in Shinra works for Hojo. Scarlet has scientists in her department.
Anyway, you're being a bit disingenuous. Aside from the hounds, all those other creatures in the Drum, all those creatures in Deepground, all those experiments Hojo spends most of his time and probably money on - When are they of any practical use to anybody? Scarlet and Heidegger's departments are responsible for the vast, vast, vast majority of every invention that is of practical use to Shinra.

 

[Makoeyes987]

No I know it doesn't. I never claimed that it did.
My original comment was with regard to the science department. I said it wasn't profitable because nothing it produced was ever for sale.

But that's not how true wealth and investment works. The Shinra Company isn't some simple publicly traded company on the stock exchange, answering to shareholders demanding increasing profits over each quarter.

They are an all encompassing conglomerate that is a corporate-facist world dictatorship, merged with an iron-fist consumerist economy. Shinra is ruthlessly efficient at creating societal progress and profit by maximizing everything, even it's own people, as resources.

Each Department of Shinra is a link in a chain that keeps the world under control. The Science Department helps create the technology and magic necessary so Weapon R&D can give Public Security the necessary tools to "protect" and ensure all assets of Shinra are protected without fail. This protects profit and allows Urban Development to do the necessary work of keeping the masses happy and placated so Shinra's dominance is unchallenged. Mako may flow freely, profits may rise and any attempts to disrupt the system can summarily handled without worry.

This creates a safe, stable and growth driven market that lets Shinra dominate into perpetuity. They don't need to sell their science developments for profit. It's an investment.

Somebody pointed out that it produced SOLDIER, and SOLDIER wins wars, and that ultimately leads to more resources and power for Shinra. True.
However, SOLDIER is now its own department, separate from the science department. I think Heidegger's in charge. Since creating SOLDIER, afaik Hojo's department hasn't produced anything which seems to be of any use to the military. Or any use at all, really (unless I've forgotten some egregious example, which I probably have). It's not profitable in any sense.

Again. It's called investment. And what President Shinra so astutely understands, is that you don't only look at short term profit. Wealth is created through investment, not austerity and short-selling. You gotta spend money to make money.

Even the space department is poised to one day search the stars for more resources because Shinra isn't so stupid to think Mako really will flow indefinitely. He realizes eventually the planet will be drained dry and outside sources will be necessary.

Clearly if you own and control every single thing on the entire planet, notions of profitabilty cease to apply. You can't make a profit because you already own everything there is or could be. But I wasn't the one who raised the question of the science department's profitability, or of profitability generally, in the first place. Makes you wonder why they even bother to discuss the budget at board meetings. (Yeah, don't tell me, Shinra controls his directors by doling out cash).

That's not true at all. The world isn't frozen or static. The markets continue to move and fluctuate, even when you own the market. Shinra understands that continued profits hinge on continued progress and innovation that builds upon the world and it's foundation. In order to effectively maintain control and keep profits up, you gotta build and innovate to keep people engaged and consuming. To give them the illusion of choice and benevolence. Neo-Midgar was part of that plan. Keeping Mako technology cutting edge was the goal. Ensuring some people felt life improving kept people happy to give their wealth, labor and lives to Shinra and validate his control.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Ha ha, Shinra is hardly ruthlessly efficient. Ruthless, maybe; efficient, not so much. Like any monolithic command economy.
If profit isn't the issue, why did you say

Hojo and the rest of his colleagues delivered some of most powerful and profitable developments Shinra could ever dream of. As long as he kept producing, he could keep choppin' and injectin'.

We have no firm proof that he has produced anything since SOLDIER, and we don't even know if that was Hojo's idea or Gast's. Hojo 's budget seems to be limitless, and he is given a completely free hand in running a huge department that very, very rarely produces anything useful. The science department is Hojo's own personal playground, and whatever the reason is that President Shinra lets him have it, it's NOT because it reliably churns out profitable developments.

Scarlet's department produces all the materia and the weapons. Not Hojo's.
Continued profits only depend on progress and innovation when you have competition. In a world without competition, in a world where the facist dictatorship can ruthlessly destroy all competition, there is no incentive to innovate.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Ha ha, Shinra is hardly ruthlessly efficient. Ruthless, maybe; efficient, not so much. Like any monolithic command economy.
If profit isn't the issue, why did you say

How are they not efficient? They use all available resources to protect their profits and power. They use propaganda. They use "bread and circus" tactics. They brainwash the masses to willingly go along with their own exploitation and subjugation. They don't let a thing like scientific ethics stand in the way of progress. And they have no qualms whatsoever stripping all of nature down to the bone in pursuit of progress and profit. Efficiency is the maximal and most direct use of resources and they do that. They hold nothing back. There's no line they'll never cross.

We have no firm proof that he has produced anything since SOLDIER, and we don't even know if that was Hojo's idea or Gast's. Hojo 's budget seems to be limitless, and he is given a completely free hand in running a huge department that very, very rarely produces anything useful. The science department is Hojo's own personal playground, and whatever the reason is that President Shinra lets him have it, it's NOT because it reliably churns out profitable developments.

That's not true at all. Look at The Drum. Look at Deepground. Look at the weaponry and toys Public Security and Weapons Development get. Chapter 17 is a literal showcase of all the horrors of scientific innovation Hojo has developed to aid Shinra. The Pride and Joy Prototype is a battle mech that couldn't have been made without the Science Department. Those things are all thanks to Hojo and his department. Hojo and his department is responsible for Shinra's ever growing and evolving arsenal.

 

[looneymoon]

The Shinra science department makes sense in a real world sense when you see it as a stand-in for the United States, and how much money it pumps into military investments. This historically, is directly connected to things like NASA and space exploration. I think the writers had this in mind when doing the world-building of FF7. I think for it to really make sense in a "real" way, they'd have to build a more detailed and expanded global history for The FF7 Planet (I still find it weird calling it Gaia lol). I don't think the focus of the story ever really allowed for that to be super necessary, so we get tidbits of info here and there, which I think works fine to get the point across.

On that same note, Wutai seems to be more of a stand-in of Japan, which is constitutionally de-militarized (ie. not having Materia). I am curious to see how Remake tackles this, as I recall a few years ago there being some protests in Japan against the notion of widening their military role.

 

[Clement Rage]

This conversation requires complicated socio-economic calculations that we can't possibly have the data for.

But Shinra does sell weapons, and in a world where lethal monsters are everywhere and there's a weapons dealer in every town, I could easily see them being in high demand. Corneo has tame monsters in Rapps and Aps, he probably didn't breed them himself.

We don't have any proof, but we don't have any reason to believe otherwise.

SOLDIER could turn a profit it they're contracted out. 'Have a monster problem? Fear not, for Shinra is here! For the low low price of G999.99 our troops will rush to your aid, clearing out the nest you're worried about. (Selfies and merchandise may incur an additional fee).'

But they are also the way Shinra can keep hold of its power, so they're useful to maintain even if they don't strictly turn a direct profit.

We don't get to see the spreadsheets for profit and loss for each department. We don't know what those doctors' department head is, my impression was that Scarlet dealt in the mechanical weapons part while Hojo's dept dealt with the more biological kind.

Spoiler: remake

Hojo himself says that he has to produce valuable stuff for the Prez so he can pursue his own interests in his own time.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Ha ha, Shinra is hardly ruthlessly efficient. Ruthless, maybe; efficient, not so much.

I think your choice of words hits the nail on the head if we reverse their placement. President Shinra isn't ruthlessly efficient nor even altogether truly ruthless, but he is efficient at what he values. He's efficient at maintaining a placated public living under a covert tyranny.

Rufus mentions multiple times across the original game and Compilation that his father spent way more money than necessary in all manner of areas, even for his mistresses. That forms the underpinning of Rufus's "Rule With Fear" speech.

Thus, we get the giant to-do that Shin-Ra was making over the (unnecessary, failed) rocket launch. We get guest tours of the HQ with fancy audio-visual aids and reassuring messages about how hard Shin-Ra is "working for you." We get an endearing cartoon dog to serve as indoctrination for the next generation.

President Shinra subscribes to a need to give the public a sense of innovation, progress, and choice even as the pizza rots under their feet and above their heads. In my headcanon, the company also maintains a number of shadow subsidiaries "competing" with one another and the larger company to further this illusion.

So, you're absolutely right, Lic. Hojo's department probably isn't as profitable as would be demanded of any situation where a real risk of competition existed. We know Hojo had to occasionally churn something out, because he tells us so, but the closest to frugality we ever see out of Papa Shinra is the decision to put the Space & Aeronatics Department on hold following the rocket failure -- and even that was probably only because Rufus managed to make him look foolish in front of the other executives, such that even Heidegger was impressed with the younger man being more sensible.

 

[Makoeyes987]

This conversation requires complicated socio-economic calculations that we can't possibly have the data for.

But Shinra does sell weapons, and in a world where lethal monsters are everywhere and there's a weapons dealer in every town, I could easily see them being in high demand. Corneo has tame monsters in Rapps and Aps, he probably didn't breed them himself.

No, they sold weapons. Past tense. When they were Shinra Works and weren't selling Mako Energy until 1959.

We don't have any proof, but we don't have any reason to believe otherwise.

... The fact they're a Mako energy focused company that does not sell its toys and keeps them top-secret is proof.

SOLDIER could turn a profit it they're contracted out. 'Have a monster problem? Fear not, for Shinra is here! For the low low price of G999.99 our troops will rush to your aid, clearing out the nest you're worried about. (Selfies and merchandise may incur an additional fee).'

But they are also the way Shinra can keep hold of its power, so they're useful to maintain even if they don't strictly turn a direct profit.

SOLDIER is the military. Not a mercenary force rented out to states to solve military conflict. You're confusing them with SeeD.

We don't get to see the spreadsheets for profit and loss for each department. We don't know what those doctors' department head is, my impression was that Scarlet dealt in the mechanical weapons part while Hojo's dept dealt with the more biological kind.

Spoiler: remake

Hojo himself says that he has to produce valuable stuff for the Prez so he can pursue his own interests in his own time.

The Science Dept deals not only in biological research, but all science. Their innovations and investments are all connected. That's what the Shinra Building's presentation showed.

 

[Clement Rage]

Companies that big usually do more than one thing, even when they're not supposed to. Seems unlikely they completely shut down a profitable business just because they discovered a new one.

I confused nothing, I was talking in hypotheticals as to how you could monetise SOLDIER.

The Shinra presentation is propaganda, I wouldn't call it a reliable source.

... The fact they're a Mako energy focused company that does not sell its toys and keeps them top-secret is proof.

Not really. The existence of secret things doesn't mean that non secret things don't also exist. Obviously they don't sell their best stuff or the ones that can't be controlled.

 

[Makoeyes987]

They don't monetise SOLDIER because they are the sole governmental power of the world. They have no reason to. As shown in Crisis Core and Before Crisis, SOLDIER is dispatched as the enforcement and peace keeping force of Shinra. They are not mercenaries.

Furthermore SOLDIERS are trade secrets. As stated by Lazard, Tseng, and demonstrated in Crisis Core and Before Crisis, Shinra does not tolerate the leaking or selling of their assets or secrets, period. They don't sell monsters, weapons or SOLDIER. It's why any leakage of their assets or secrets is punishable by death. It's why those who "retire" from Shinra never truly retire. They're surveiled til the end of their lives.

There's never been an instance of Shinra selling their tech or research. If you're going to claim there is, the burden of proof is on you to show it. Shinra owns the world and the economy. Their assets are theirs and theirs alone.

There aren't even any institutions that exist to even try to bargain with Shinra to "hire" SOLDIER. They would be either an insurgency or citizens under their authority.

 

[Clement Rage]

We can't prove claims like this about a world that doesn't exist.

I'm speculating about hypotheticals, that's all. It's like speculating that tillage farms exist even though all we see is one about high end racing birds, because it would make sense. We can't prove it until we see them.

I'm not saying any of this is hard irrefutable truth, but it makes more sense to me that Shinra would still sell other things even after Mako became its main course of business, because otherwise they're leaving easy money on the table.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Well, it doesn't exist in reality, but it's a fictional realm and story. Hence it follows it's own guidelines and works that showcase what the intended state of affairs are, for the audience. We can at least analyze and go by what exists and is depicted to accurately read and interpret the setting of the story.

In terms of concepts like how Shinra runs it's business and rules the world, we have clear idea that they are a de facto world government that owns everything they so choose. It's a Shinra world, and everyone merely lives within it at their discretion and mercy. Only Wutai had the courage to challenge Shinra for sovereignty and they were defeated and punished. If a person or group needs SOLDIER, they don't "hire" them... They request them. Just like Nibelheim did due to issues with monsters and their reactor going on the fritz. That's a perfect example. A small local quasi-autonomous village still had to ultimately request aid from Shinra in order to manage the state of affairs that were beyond their control. They didn't "hire," they "asked."

 

[Roger]

@ Obsidian, That makes sense.

@ Roger: Do the doctors work for Hojo's department or Heidegger's department? There's no reason to assume that every scientist in Shinra works for Hojo. Scarlet has scientists in her department.
Anyway, you're being a bit disingenuous. Aside from the hounds, all those other creatures in the Drum, all those creatures in Deepground, all those experiments Hojo spends most of his time and probably money on - When are they of any practical use to anybody? Scarlet and Heidegger's departments are responsible for the vast, vast, vast majority of every invention that is of practical use to Shinra.

That Shinra has scientists means there's a need for a Science department.

I don't see how this is disingenous. Heidegger DOES use the hounds instead of another guy from his department to include in his units, he does use the shock troopers instead of just yet another guy or robot to make his units, the Monodrives are used to patrol areas that humans don't go along with Scarlet's robots.

We've left the Drum behind us now, I'm confident we will continue to see enemies from Shinra origin in the field that aren't special purely due to robotics.

And Heidegger isn't responsible for any invention. He and his people don't invent anything. They deploy the stuff that come out of Scarlet and Hojo's department.

Scarlet's department produces all the materia and the weapons. Not Hojo's.

You know that some weapons out in the field originate from Hojo's department as well. Can I get a citation that tells us Materia is entirely under Scarlet's department purview alone?