Regarding lifetime bans, specifically L

[The Twilight Mexican]

Alright, given all the weigh-ins we have how, and given both Yop and Lex don't want to be decision makers here for lack of objectivity, I'm just going to call it and say this isn't happening at this point. Whether it happens down the road is up to L and the people he has a history with.

L, if you read this, I'm not making any judgments about your present character. I barely knew you in the past, I don't know you now, and I can almost guarantee I've made bigger fuckups with my offline life than you've made online, so I'm not looking to judge you here. I'm just making a decision for the well-being of the community. If you could be a positive addition to it later on, I hope that comes to pass.

EDIT: Well, just pop in and ninja me by three minutes why don't you, Yop.

 

[Cabaret]

All fair points. But I think that I disagree with one point which I always disagree with. People often talk about L and not to him. I'm not sure if he can read this or even if he would be trying to since he's been banned. I think saying someone should be banned or that they did a lot of wrong in the past are valid, but unfair to make a decision on if the person in question is not here to respond. Although I understand that if he were here some may have been reluctant to come forward. But now that this thread has it all laid out, perhaps it's worth allowing him to respond? (rather than assume he's not going to apologise based on how he handled the dupe account)
TL;DR we can never know what goes through people's heads and so can never make a good judgement based on that. Communication is always the better route imo.

Last night I summarised the first few posts on Skype to him - up to Octo's. (as well as Copied and pasted my initial post) because as said, I don't think it's fair to talk about someone without them knowing about it and he could well have told me to not bother, in which case I'd have retracted obvsly.) So you know for context, he didn't know I was making this thread.

So I'm just going to copy and paste what his reply was. It wasn't intended to be public, but I don't think L would mind. It at least gives him a bit a voice in response to all of this. I've changed the names here too, so there is a bit of editing.

[06:32:31] L: I spoke to Yopy last night and said to him I didn't hold any bad intentions towards staff on acf and apologised for all my shit in the past. Tbh I don't even remember what I did to Octo since I was banned three years ago and most of my bitchfit was directed towards Aaron and ryu. That said if I genuinely did do something to Octo then of course I owe her an apology. I don't mind even speaking with her about it on Skype if she prefers.
[06:33:14] L: Really appreciate this kirk, you honestly didn't need to do anything. I've grown up enough now not to get upset and go on the warpath when it comes to Internet forums.
[06:33:36] L: Kiri* goddamn autocorrect

 

[Lex]

People often talk about L and not to him. I'm not sure if he can read this or even if he would be trying to since he's been banned. I think saying someone should be banned or that they did a lot of wrong in the past are valid, but unfair to make a decision on if the person in question is not here to respond.

To be fair Cab, nobody here has made this point for you to disagree with in the first place. The onus is on L to open meaningful dialogue, and he can do that behind his ban. The onus is not on the people of the forum who have either witnessed or been victims to his behaviour to allow them in if they don't feel comfortable with it when he's already been permabanned for said behaviour.

And Scott is acutely aware of this, he knows what the score is.

It might seem unfair that we're discussing him where he can't respond, but don't forget that you created this thread because you wanted to talk about his permaban, and that's what we're doing. If anybody is to blame for his inability to respond to things people are saying about him here, it's you (I mean that in a non-cheeky way <3).

There are avenues of contact available if he wants to use them. In fact, he's done so right now because we've just added each other to FB and Skype through Joe. But as I said before, I'm not the one he has to make amends with.

 

[Cabaret]

No, I know what you mean - I'm not sure I was really awake enough to phrase my post properly. I think what I wanted to say is that now would be a good time for L to see what has been said and either speak for himself or walk away and let that be an end to it. I'm all about the resolution here and don't really want to drag it out as I fear it'll end up in division, which is not the intention.

I made this thread because I genuinely think L has changed, in fact I genuinely think a lot of use have changed. I remember the days of ACF and how the teams would behave to each other; Somewhat Obsessed wore their unsociable behaviour almost as a badge of pride and it was almost encouraged within the team to cause chaos wherever and however possible. I am guilty of it as much as the next ex-SOer. But these people have changed and I think that if someone really wants to come back and can prove they've changed by sociable behaviour then they should be welcome back and would do the same for anyone else I think has changed.

I'm a firm believer in people being crap at communication, mostly because I was shocked about this happening so frequently when I studied it. We don't know when a break down in communication has occurred because they are subtle and based on a lot of different things but it results in us forming opinions/beliefs about things. I'm also on a course which is hammering home the different ways we think about things; as opinions vs as facts and with an emotional response vs with a 'fact based 'effective' response. So everything I'm saying is very much coloured by those two things.

Also, when I say a break down in communication, I'm absolutely not suggesting that L's past behaviour is this. I'm suggesting that what may constitute water under the bridge for him may be a burning issue for someone else. Or that Yopy's telling him to make a dupe to lurk and access unseen threads may not have been interpreted in the way Yopy intended it to be. We can all say,but it's clearly written in black and white, but there are countless studies that prove there is no such thing and what is said is rarely what is heard. So I was just making that point, but as I write this I realise that it's fuel for a shit storm of 'he said/she said'. I really hope that doesn't happen. I just want to point out that what he said is not what she said understands and vice versa.

From the quote above we can see that L doesn't even remember wrongs he's done to people, but is willing to apologise for them if he is made aware of them. I think this should go in his favour as it shows his willingness to make amends and show he's a better person now (I bloody hope he sticks to this after I've stretched my neck out like this! ) And that he feels he has apologised to Ryu and Aaron, however it seems Ryu doesn't share that view point and I'm sure if Aaron were here he's not share it either. I think this is a side effect from being very angry and emotionally driven, we just don't remember /were never aware of the damage we were doing. I don't think it's unusual to be unaware of the people we've pissed off, had I not directly addressed issues like this with some people, they'd be unaware of upsetting me and I'd be ruminating over it and that would show in how I behaved towards them creating poor communication.

Perhaps I should add that if anyone wants to debate this point, put it in a separate thread on communication or the lack thereof. Because it would be interesting to see what others' thoughts on this is actually!

 

[Joe]

I've already let Scott know this morning that if he'd like to give a general response to the thread I'll happily post it up for him. I think it's fair - especially considering a couple of posts have addressed him directly as he reads them. I would rather post something from him because from this side of things it's rather clear he's not the same person who was banned. That said, the banning is staying in place for now and any future to it is up to Scott and the affected parties.

Thanks everyone for giving their honest thoughts and experiences in this thread. I know it's not always easy and can sometimes feel like you're on or even part of the firing line. At the end of the day this kind of open communication is what gets us places and I'm happy pretty much everyone did so in a clear and respectful manner .

 

[Cabaret]

Oh I just want to add that I hope people don't think with my poorly worded post that I was putting the onus on people on this forum. What I said was very much that, but I was just linking thoughts; I agree with your points. Here's something I want to bring up. Would have been better said than 'I disagree with one point...' - Sorry about that, it was poor communication on my part and not intended to put anyone in the firing line.

Quoted for truth:

At the end of the day this kind of open communication is what gets us places and I'm happy pretty much everyone did so in a clear and respectful manner

 

[Cthulhu]

FWIW, L asked me to pass on the following:

* If anyone who was slighted by him would like to open a dialog or receive an apology or something from him, you can add him on Skype: live:srlaird1314 (not sure if the live: prefix is required).
* [12:50:45] Scott Laird: And before the next person starts with the too little too late debate I'm willing to make amends regardless of being banned on the site.

 

[Octo]

Can I just make something clear

[06:32:31] L: I spoke to Yopy last night and said to him I didn't hold any bad intentions towards staff on acf and apologised for all my shit in the past. Tbh I don't even remember what I did to Octo since I was banned three years ago and most of my bitchfit was directed towards Aaron and ryu. That said if I genuinely did do something to Octo then of course I owe her an apology. I don't mind even speaking with her about it on Skype if she prefers.

I never said he'd done anything personally to me, so could someone make that clear to him please? I don't want the waters getting muddied here

 

[Lex]

Spoiler

No, I know what you mean - I'm not sure I was really awake enough to phrase my post properly. I think what I wanted to say is that now would be a good time for L to see what has been said and either speak for himself or walk away and let that be an end to it. I'm all about the resolution here and don't really want to drag it out as I fear it'll end up in division, which is not the intention.

I made this thread because I genuinely think L has changed, in fact I genuinely think a lot of use have changed. I remember the days of ACF and how the teams would behave to each other; Somewhat Obsessed wore their unsociable behaviour almost as a badge of pride and it was almost encouraged within the team to cause chaos wherever and however possible. I am guilty of it as much as the next ex-SOer. But these people have changed and I think that if someone really wants to come back and can prove they've changed by sociable behaviour then they should be welcome back and would do the same for anyone else I think has changed.

I'm a firm believer in people being crap at communication, mostly because I was shocked about this happening so frequently when I studied it. We don't know when a break down in communication has occurred because they are subtle and based on a lot of different things but it results in us forming opinions/beliefs about things. I'm also on a course which is hammering home the different ways we think about things; as opinions vs as facts and with an emotional response vs with a 'fact based 'effective' response. So everything I'm saying is very much coloured by those two things.

Also, when I say a break down in communication, I'm absolutely not suggesting that L's past behaviour is this. I'm suggesting that what may constitute water under the bridge for him may be a burning issue for someone else. Or that Yopy's telling him to make a dupe to lurk and access unseen threads may not have been interpreted in the way Yopy intended it to be. We can all say,but it's clearly written in black and white, but there are countless studies that prove there is no such thing and what is said is rarely what is heard. So I was just making that point, but as I write this I realise that it's fuel for a shit storm of 'he said/she said'. I really hope that doesn't happen. I just want to point out that what he said is not what she said understands and vice versa.

From the quote above we can see that L doesn't even remember wrongs he's done to people, but is willing to apologise for them if he is made aware of them. I think this should go in his favour as it shows his willingness to make amends and show he's a better person now (I bloody hope he sticks to this after I've stretched my neck out like this! ) And that he feels he has apologised to Ryu and Aaron, however it seems Ryu doesn't share that view point and I'm sure if Aaron were here he's not share it either. I think this is a side effect from being very angry and emotionally driven, we just don't remember /were never aware of the damage we were doing. I don't think it's unusual to be unaware of the people we've pissed off, had I not directly addressed issues like this with some people, they'd be unaware of upsetting me and I'd be ruminating over it and that would show in how I behaved towards them creating poor communication.

Perhaps I should add that if anyone wants to debate this point, put it in a separate thread on communication or the lack thereof. Because it would be interesting to see what others' thoughts on this is actually!

I don't want to respond to your post bit by bit because that tends to come off as argumentative and I applaud the spirit of this post in general, but there are a couple of points I want to make:

- The behaviour in question extended far beyond being teenagers in Somewhat Obsessed, it happened here prior to and leading up to 2012. Given that, I just don't see the whole "we're not somewhat obsessed anymore" thing making any sense in this context. I only started regularly posting here in 2011 and even I remember what he could be like.

- I know what you're saying about mending bridges and that's a good thing, I'll always agree with that. I'm delighted to see Joe's post above (relayed from Scott) with his contact details in there. But I also won't hold it against anyone who doesn't want to add him to chat about past grievances. They shouldn't have to talk about it anywhere if they don't want to, it's buried in the past and they don't want to dredge it up, so they shouldn't have to explain themselves one way or the other IMO.

- One thing I really want to see is you guys (right now Joe and Cab) show a bit of understanding to the other side. I get that you both feel like you have to fight in his corner but try to remember the people actually being affected by all this are not you or L. A blanket "we know he was shitty in the past" doesn't really cover this IMO. And Cab, a great deal of this actually comes from a time when you weren't present on TLS, it's not all ACF stuff. Barely any of it is ACF stuff.

 

[Cthulhu]

He can read it himself actually, this is a public forum and he's not IP banned,

 

[Channy]

FWIW, L asked me to pass on the following:

* If anyone who was slighted by him would like to open a dialog or receive an apology or something from him, you can add him on Skype: live:srlaird1314 (not sure if the live: prefix is required).
* [12:50:45] Scott Laird: And before the next person starts with the too little too late debate I'm willing to make amends regardless of being banned on the site.

This might be because it's still 7:30am and I'm up for some reason when I don't even work today... But this irked me. A lot. Maybe it's just the way Yop phrased it and it may not have even come directly from Scott but it comes across as very... "If I have to come back and apologize, here's my email so come to me, stand in line and receive a cookie cutter apology." As others who have said, the onus shouldn't be on others (re: the victims) to get an apology, but the offender to apologize. And to this you could say "well he has no ones Skypes or whatever" well, This is an open forum and it would take nothing to create a dupe (as he had done( locate the few members profiles, get their Skypes and add them.... Or surely through the grapevine of Skype and fb he could locate them himself. It requires very little effort (I know, because I've done it). Effort, it sounds like, he's not willing to put in.

Also, to counter Cabs point when she says so stiles we just don't remember the impact we have had on some, is all well and good if he were the average troll. But to the few were he actively worked hard at making miserable (and I can think of a handful of others other than myself) those kind of memories, you just don't forget or shove it aside as if you did nothing. To do so, would be sociopathic.

 

[Lex]

I understand what you're saying channy, but that's still a good step. FWIW the first thing he did when I added him was offer me a long and unabated apology for his behaviour towards me in the past which I really appreciated.

What I said before still stands though - I'm glad I got that apology but I didn't need it because all he really did was make a few crappy comments aimed at me a long time ago, there are people who are not me he would need to make amends with and it's not up to them to add him to get that resolution. There is no pressure to try because you shouldn't have to feel that way in the first place. At the end of the day staff are sticking by their decision and I'm just glad everyone is being mature about this whole thing.

 

[Joe]

Just a request on L's behalf. If you would definitely like to contact him for a chat or whatever else, can you please use Skype and not FB.

 

[Jason Tandro]

You people and your Skype. Back in my day, we used MSN Messenger and we liked it!

 

[Joker]

At what point does one let go and just move on?

Ironic, perhaps, coming from me, but consider that after what happened some years past, I just sort of showed back up with no intention of causing trouble and slowly...idk, earned some measure of faith or trust or whatever back with the community, with little to nothing in the way of apologies upfront. Now admittedly, there were certainly some that came out along the way (thinking of Aaron and Ryu in particular here), but, to me, it seemed best to not drudge up things people would rather not think about - though I do not at any point deny (or feel the need to deny) that they ever happened. That would be doing everyone involved a disservice, and would be massively disrespectful to them.

And hey, maybe people still think I'm a piece of shit

But ultimately, someone's got to nut up and make the first attempt at moving on in some form or fashion, and in this case, it appears to have been Scott. Good job, him. I can understand people being unhappy about this (especially the way in which it was done), but I have a very real question for the people who still have those feelings toward him:

If he apologized, would it really change things between you? Would you feel any differently toward him? Would you become friends (again)?

You can sit around and wait for things until the cows come home (Olivia Wilde to fall madly in love with me, for example), or you can go and live your life without worrying about things that ultimately don't (or, at least, SHOULDN'T) have any effect on you (what someone you don't like said on the internet).

(and before you jump down my throat, scott's been on me before as well)
(and if you have a problem with me shoot me a message and let's open a dialogue - I'm sober now I promise)

 

[Cabaret]

Well it seems that there really is nothing L can do to make amends here, I'm sure if he did look you up Channy, you'd accuse him of stalking, I would if someone I barely knew, but who had upset me, contacted me out of the blue on more personal media.

Lex - my point about Somewhat Obsessed is that it set a precedent of behaviour that was not positive for future online behaviour. I know this all stems from his behaviour on TLS and not ACF, otherwise his banning here would be a bit odd to say the least. But we are discussing behaviour that is at least 2 years old or more are we not? If it were last month I could see the leopard doesn't change his spots argument, but when it's years it's a different story surely?


When I originally came to this site it was for research for a paper I was writing on speech acts. I felt sure I could find a lot of insults here because of my past forum experience. After being here a while I had to change the paper from insults to compliments since I just couldn't find enough here to write a paper on. It's a testament to this community and how things have changed, change being the operative word here, we're all capable of it.

I don't think we are giving a blanket ' we know he was shitty in the past but let's move on' type of argument. It's more an argument of 'a lot of time has passed, he's a different person now and wants to make amends and come back into the community'. It's hard to go into detail when we're ignorant of the detail (I am at least). And it's not appropriate to start saying 'remember when he called X person a Y, Z times over, well he's sorry for that and won't do that again.' and continue to list everything he did wrong with a second hand apology. I'm asking people to look at how he has behaved in the last 2 times he's been on here, but it seems people only see the person he was and refuse to accept that things have changed.

I don't think L is some kind of sociopath that has a lot of people fooled and is just waiting for his chance to get on here to bully people, nothing he has done since I've been here (he's come back twice) has suggested that. And to want to make him grovel then say it's not good enough because he didn't do so in a particular way is petty imo. Earlier in his thread it was said that he should have tried to apologise, then that it should be him to contact people on other media to apologise, then that he should apologise to particular people directly, then that his apology is not sincere. We could have saved a lot of time in this thread if a straight up no, and no had been given instead of setting expectations to jump to then criticising them. It hasn't been said that these things will result in him coming back, just that he should do so. Well, my morals say that if you request an apology then get one, you shouldn't start picking it apart and saying it wasn't a good enough apology. And I'm afraid Lex that this is the point that I can't sympathise with the other side because this is very poor behaviour.

I'm not fighting this cause because I particularly love L or even know him that well. We're not FB friends but have a quick chat on Skype every now and then. We had a laugh in ACF years ago, heintroduced me to Death Note which I loved. I'm pretty sure he has given me a hard time in the past and vice versa. I'm not labouring this point because of any friendship that makes me blind to who he really is. I'm doing this because I see a guy that was part of a community, fucked up... and fucked up royally, then on coming back, behaves himself but is kicked out again and again regardless. I just think that's wrong and it smacks of a vindictive attitude from the people he upset that I find very unsettling.

I think I would have more understanding for the other side if there was a bit more disclosure. I don't want to force anyone to dredge up stuff that will distress them, but it's as much a blanket conversation when one side is saying let's move on and put that in the past while the other is saying I can't it upset me deeply. There's nothing to work with on either side there as it shuts down any dialogue that could be.

I guess what I worry about most is the vindictiveness of all of this. IMO it's not right.

 

[Lex]

Cab you cannot ask people to dredge up their old stuff and tell you all their personal traumas just to appease your need to feel that the continued ban is justified. Honestly a massive part of that post is out of order.

Particularly this bit:

It hasn't been said that these things will result in him coming back, just that he should do so. Well, my morals say that if you request an apology then get one, you shouldn't start picking it apart and saying it wasn't a good enough apology. And I'm afraid Lex that this is the point that I can't sympathise with the other side because this is very poor behaviour.

It couldn't be clearer that you don't have the full story here, but that's not my business to discuss (and it's actually none of your business either Cab, I honestly think you're crossing a line by insinuating that someone is just being petty in this situation because that's not the case).

More importantly the bolded. A person should apologise for shitty behaviour because the behaviour was shitty. That doesn't put the staff in any position whatsoever to have to allow him back, and the reason for that is that it's a bloody permaban. It also doesn't need to carry any other reason. Username is still banned, where are the people making a case for him? What about Vendel? We have time-sensitive bans, we have suspensions, and we have permabans. Circumventing any ban for any reason is grounds for further ban time. These are the rules.

For my actual feelings in this: yes, he might have changed. I at least have had a pleasant experience interacting with him today, and I felt like his apology was sincere. No I do not think it's an elaborate ruse to get back on the board and start trolling, but all of this is completely beside the point because I said from the very start that if it is the will of the board that he be allowed back, I wouldn't care. It is clearly not the will of the board, and the comfort of existing members is what's important.

Nobody is dangling the offer "if you apologise you might be let back in" in front of him, it has merely been suggested that had meaningful discussions been opened the affected people might be more amenable to allowing him back.

You know what? I really hate the idea that we're excluding a VII fan from the board following the remake announcement, regardless of how I might feel about it. Into the bargain, I hope I continue to interact with him because as I said, I've enjoyed getting to know him a little bit today. But I respect the will of the people of this board and most importantly the feelings of those affected, and so should you.

That's my final word on this honestly, I don't think there's anything else I can say. I would appreciate it if other staff would start responding a bit more from here on in because considering I didn't vote in this decision I've been doing a hell of a lot of posting in here.

 

[Geostigma]

I've always been pretty biased in Scott's favor in the past so I definitely feel like a dick being on this side of the argument for a change.

Lex - my point about Somewhat Obsessed is that it set a precedent of behaviour that was not positive for future online behaviour. I know this all stems from his behaviour on TLS and not ACF, otherwise his banning here would be a bit odd to say the least. But we are discussing behaviour that is at least 2 years old or more are we not? If it were last month I could see the leopard doesn't change his spots argument, but when it's years it's a different story surely?

While I don't disagree our days in SO put a chip on our shoulder I do want to point out that he's the only SO member here who is permabanned. Several SO members we're even well behaved enough to even make it on staff here.
That's kind of a bad argument to have in Scott's favor lol. Sure it works for the "people can change" angle, but it just stinks that pretty much everyone else in SO changed many many years ago.

When I originally came to this site it was for research for a paper I was writing on speech acts. I felt sure I could find a lot of insults here because of my past forum experience. After being here a while I had to change the paper from insults to compliments since I just couldn't find enough here to write a paper on. It's a testament to this community and how things have changed, change being the operative word here, we're all capable of it.

Tbf you came back after a group of people (incidentally enough Scott was in this group) either all left or got banned. While they were all around TLS was much worse than ACF was as far as petty BS goes. A lot of change in this community happened after ties just had to be cut.

I don't think we are giving a blanket ' we know he was shitty in the past but let's move on' type of argument. It's more an argument of 'a lot of time has passed, he's a different person now and wants to make amends and come back into the community'. It's hard to go into detail when we're ignorant of the detail (I am at least). And it's not appropriate to start saying 'remember when he called X person a Y, Z times over, well he's sorry for that and won't do that again.' and continue to list everything he did wrong with a second hand apology. I'm asking people to look at how he has behaved in the last 2 times he's been on here, but it seems people only see the person he was and refuse to accept that things have changed.

That's just how it is when you burn bridges though lol, and again your stance still comes off as wanting the people he wronged to come back across the bridges he burned. I know that's not the intention but it's what it comes off like.
Also how he acted on past dupes isn't indicative of change 100% He was told to fly under the radar and he did just that as long as he could. Unfortunately with a variable like that it's hard to say he really did change vs he was just laying low.

I don't think L is some kind of sociopath that has a lot of people fooled and is just waiting for his chance to get on here to bully people

Same.

Earlier in his thread it was said that he should have tried to apologise, then that it should be him to contact people on other media to apologise, then that he should apologise to particular people directly, then that his apology is not sincere. We could have saved a lot of time in this thread if a straight up no, and no had been given instead of setting expectations to jump to then criticising them. It hasn't been said that these things will result in him coming back, just that he should do so. Well, my morals say that if you request an apology then get one, you shouldn't start picking it apart and saying it wasn't a good enough apology. And I'm afraid Lex that this is the point that I can't sympathise with the other side because this is very poor behaviour.

A) Pretty much unanimously it was said that it would have looked better if he tried to rebuild the bridge BEFORE getting caught. Not after.

B) Almost everyone who said that wasn't staff and couldn't make that decision for them, they were just saying it would have looked better on his behalf. The staff who did chime in made it clear they weren't casting a vote on his return as well.

@whole last half. I don't think its vindictive at all tbh. Every ban he picked up here he had coming I'm sure he acknowledges that himself.

Even though it was suggested by Yop. Flying under the radar and trying to honeydick the community (lol) wasn't the way to go about it. Maybe now that the dialogue options are open he can work his way back in. Maybe add him to that skype group , or pop up on IRC more often etc.


edit:

Also for the lulz it should be noted a decent amount of the rules on TLS were made or added in because of Scott lol.

 

[Octo]

I dont think I can add anything to what Lex has said. I don't know the full extent of what transpired but what I do know - all I can say is if I had been on the recieving end of it I would not want to be on this forum if L was allowed back.

 

[ForceStealer]

Is Cab saying the fact that he was permabanned in the first place was vindictive, or merely that he has remained banned? Because, I mean, it's right there in the name.

 

[Tetsujin]

Being sorry and having changed is all good and well and if that's really the case, more power to him. Really.

But I am also of the opinion that this doesn't entitle you to people letting you back in. No one should feel obliged to let people who were shitty to them back in.
Part of fucking up is also accepting that you may have closed a door forever. Take what you've learned, and do things differently in a different place.

What I find unsettling is calling people petty or vindictive over this when they're fully justified in feeling this way. Guilt-tripping is a crappy tactic.

 

[Cabaret]

Particularly this bit:

It hasn't been said that these things will result in him coming back, just that he should do so.

It couldn't be clearer that you don't have the full story here, but that's not my business to discuss (and it's actually none of your business either Cab, I honestly think you're crossing a line by insinuating that someone is just being petty in this situation because that's not the case).

Nobody is dangling the offer "if you apologise you might be let back in" in front of him, it has merely been suggested that had meaningful discussions been opened the affected people might be more amenable to allowing him back.

This is why I said: It hasn't been said these things will result in him coming back, I didn't say it had been said. Please don't quote me then say I said the opposite in the same post.

I feel I've made myself, my motivations and my worries clear on this issue, but I can see from the responses that I obviously haven't. My bad on the communication front I guess.


Edit: I'm not guilt tripping, believe me there is a lot of things here I could guilt trip people about, but it's not my style. I worry that shit I have said or done in the past is going to get hashed up and rubbed in my face down the line as it seems people can't move on. I don't believe in harbouring grudges and ill feeling towards a person over the long term, I feel it does more harm than good. But there's nothing I can say here that won't make y'all see what you want to see and jump down my throat, which is a big part of why I put this thread up in the first place, so as much as I dislike the deliberate misdirection of what I'm saying, I'm out.

 

[Geostigma]

I'm not guilt tripping, believe me there is a lot of things here I could guilt trip people about, but it's not my style.

I WAS DRUNK I ALREADY SAID SORRY STAHP
And I get where your coming from it's definitely a janky subject. It's just that actions are carried out by people and in effect calling those actions petty and vindictive can easily be read as calling those people petty and vindictive.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Cab, in the event you aren't as done here as you currently feel, be aware that I'm very nearly at the point of closing this thread and putting the kibosh on further discussion about this due to your increasingly uncooperative and -- being completely honest -- insulting dialogue. Everyone else has discussed this with civility and good faith.

It's clear from your last post that this is more about you than L, so let me be clear: Anybody who wants to dredge up past grievances against you to challenge your place here has long since missed their chance.

 

[Channy]

I have one last thing to address both Cab and maybe Kimble but I'm having issues with this laptop .__.