Regarding lifetime bans, specifically L

[ForceStealer]

I don't believe in harbouring grudges and ill feeling towards a person over the long term, I feel it does more harm than good.

So, again I ask, is your issue with the fact that he was permabanned at all? Or just that staff is sticking to it, in fact, being permanent?

 

[AvecAloes]

I've been working on this post for the last hour or so because I keep getting interrupted by my job - maybe it's not even relevant anymore by the time I get it posted, but oh well

Spoiler

At what point does one let go and just move on?

Ironic, perhaps, coming from me, but consider that after what happened some years past, I just sort of showed back up with no intention of causing trouble and slowly...idk, earned some measure of faith or trust or whatever back with the community, with little to nothing in the way of apologies upfront. Now admittedly, there were certainly some that came out along the way (thinking of Aaron and Ryu in particular here), but, to me, it seemed best to not drudge up things people would rather not think about - though I do not at any point deny (or feel the need to deny) that they ever happened. That would be doing everyone involved a disservice, and would be massively disrespectful to them.

And hey, maybe people still think I'm a piece of shit

But ultimately, someone's got to nut up and make the first attempt at moving on in some form or fashion, and in this case, it appears to have been Scott. Good job, him. I can understand people being unhappy about this (especially the way in which it was done), but I have a very real question for the people who still have those feelings toward him:

If he apologized, would it really change things between you? Would you feel any differently toward him? Would you become friends (again)?

You can sit around and wait for things until the cows come home (Olivia Wilde to fall madly in love with me, for example), or you can go and live your life without worrying about things that ultimately don't (or, at least, SHOULDN'T) have any effect on you (what someone you don't like said on the internet).

(and before you jump down my throat, scott's been on me before as well)
(and if you have a problem with me shoot me a message and let's open a dialogue - I'm sober now I promise)

I mean, an apology would always help in a situation in which someone had been wronged, because it shows humility and an understanding of how someone may have wronged the other person. In your case, the spirit of how you came back to the forums was good, and you have indeed kind of proven yourself to be different than you had been in the past. However, to not offer apologies because you don't want to drudge things up seems a little misguided, in my opinion. It feels more like a "sweep things under the rug" tactic, and it always leaves one wondering if there's a chance that things could go just as south as they did before. For someone like L, who apparently has a long history of being incredibly cruel to individuals, to come back without clearing the air between himself and the people he wronged would not be acceptable in my book. If he is allowed to come back and is willing to apologize, and he does, whether people reach out to him or not (once he's back, he can easily PM people he should apologize to), and then moves on in such a way that shows he has truly changed, then great, welcome back to the community. If things did not change, if he started "trolling" again, then of course there should and would be consequences. If it seems a bit probationary to do something like that, well, so what? We all have to pay for the consequences of our actions. But should we not also allow for the fact that people can and do change?

Obviously there have been instances of people who behaved badly, came back, and behaved badly again, but not everyone has done that. Some people grow up. Some people don't.

 

[Cabaret]

Read the first post Force stealer. I was asking if a review in policy was worth discussing regarding certain cases, L being one that has come up recently and worth using as a basis of whether the policy should be reviewed or not. But that's obviously moot now.

 

[Tetsujin]

People HAVE moved on. Cutting him off was doing exactly that.

I also find it ironic considering I have witnessed L himself as being incapable of letting go of petty shit in the past. People have put up with him and given him way more chances than necessary already.

I don't generally believe in holding grudges either but there is a limit with repeat offenses. I wouldn't tell an abused wife to give her ex another chance even if he truly is a changed man either

People are entirely entitled to say "this is too much". To hold it against them as being unable to let go is grossly unfair.

 

[Cthulhu]

wrt lifetime bans, we don't really have much of a policy on it since it happens so rarely. I don't think we've permabanned anyone in years (that wasn't banned previously already or wasn't a spambot trying to sell us viagra or stolen credit cards).

 

[Joker]

Spoiler

I've been working on this post for the last hour or so because I keep getting interrupted by my job - maybe it's not even relevant anymore by the time I get it posted, but oh well

Spoiler

At what point does one let go and just move on?

Ironic, perhaps, coming from me, but consider that after what happened some years past, I just sort of showed back up with no intention of causing trouble and slowly...idk, earned some measure of faith or trust or whatever back with the community, with little to nothing in the way of apologies upfront. Now admittedly, there were certainly some that came out along the way (thinking of Aaron and Ryu in particular here), but, to me, it seemed best to not drudge up things people would rather not think about - though I do not at any point deny (or feel the need to deny) that they ever happened. That would be doing everyone involved a disservice, and would be massively disrespectful to them.

And hey, maybe people still think I'm a piece of shit

But ultimately, someone's got to nut up and make the first attempt at moving on in some form or fashion, and in this case, it appears to have been Scott. Good job, him. I can understand people being unhappy about this (especially the way in which it was done), but I have a very real question for the people who still have those feelings toward him:

If he apologized, would it really change things between you? Would you feel any differently toward him? Would you become friends (again)?

You can sit around and wait for things until the cows come home (Olivia Wilde to fall madly in love with me, for example), or you can go and live your life without worrying about things that ultimately don't (or, at least, SHOULDN'T) have any effect on you (what someone you don't like said on the internet).

(and before you jump down my throat, scott's been on me before as well)
(and if you have a problem with me shoot me a message and let's open a dialogue - I'm sober now I promise)

I mean, an apology would always help in a situation in which someone had been wronged, because it shows humility and an understanding of how someone may have wronged the other person. In your case, the spirit of how you came back to the forums was good, and you have indeed kind of proven yourself to be different than you had been in the past. However, to not offer apologies because you don't want to drudge things up seems a little misguided, in my opinion. It feels more like a "sweep things under the rug" tactic, and it always leaves one wondering if there's a chance that things could go just as south as they did before. For someone like L, who apparently has a long history of being incredibly cruel to individuals, to come back without clearing the air between himself and the people he wronged would not be acceptable in my book. If he is allowed to come back and is willing to apologize, and he does, whether people reach out to him or not (once he's back, he can easily PM people he should apologize to), and then moves on in such a way that shows he has truly changed, then great, welcome back to the community. If things did not change, if he started "trolling" again, then of course there should and would be consequences. If it seems a bit probationary to do something like that, well, so what? We all have to pay for the consequences of our actions. But should we not also allow for the fact that people can and do change?

Obviously there have been instances of people who behaved badly, came back, and behaved badly again, but not everyone has done that. Some people grow up. Some people don't.

This is nothing but very fair points.

With that in mind, in the spirit of parsing for subtext, I've taken note of two parts of your post in particular and will be taking that into consideration with regards to my own future here. Something for me to think about, you know? And for my part, I appreciate both the critique and the way in which is was applied.

 

[Channy]

So in the end I had to wait till I got home because you can't really type with two four year olds begging for your attention.

At what point does one let go and just move on?

I think usually if there is some form of communication between parties where some form acknowledgement of past grievances, without needing to delve into the past too much, and admitting that you might be somewhat regretful of it.... that usually helps, at least.

And hey, maybe people still think I'm a piece of shit

You're not all that bad.

but I have a very real question for the people who still have those feelings toward him:

If he apologized, would it really change things between you? Would you feel any differently toward him? Would you become friends (again)?

I'd feel a little better, somewhat. I mean, it could be put on and fake just to make appearances, and there's no way to really tell, but it's a start.

You can sit around and wait for things until the cows come home (Olivia Wilde to fall madly in love with me, for example), or you can go and live your life without worrying about things that ultimately don't (or, at least, SHOULDN'T) have any effect on you (what someone you don't like said on the internet).

It's not as if I'm sitting in my room, cowering, wondering what sort of spiteful thing Scott is going to say next. I mean, it never was like that. He didn't ruin my life. He didn't try to make it a living hell. But he certainly put in effort to make experiences here (and FCF) less enjoyable. So yeah, there would still be a feeling of walking on egg shells, not fear necessarily, but.. yeah.

Well it seems that there really is nothing L can do to make amends here, I'm sure if he did look you up Channy, you'd accuse him of stalking, I would if someone I barely knew, but who had upset me, contacted me out of the blue on more personal media.

That's both not true and completely unfair. I know enough of Scott that I wouldn't think he was some rando coming out of the woodwork to stalk me. But if he had made some sort of effort, sent a PM or something that started off with something along the lines of "Hey, sorry I was a dick to you in the past.." and went on to say how he may have changed of whatever, I would take that into consideration. Because it's the least you can do when you've been a really shitty person to someone, isn't it?

Spoiler: The rest of your post that I want quoted but can't specify more of

I don't think we are giving a blanket ' we know he was shitty in the past but let's move on' type of argument. It's more an argument of 'a lot of time has passed, he's a different person now and wants to make amends and come back into the community'. It's hard to go into detail when we're ignorant of the detail (I am at least). And it's not appropriate to start saying 'remember when he called X person a Y, Z times over, well he's sorry for that and won't do that again.' and continue to list everything he did wrong with a second hand apology. I'm asking people to look at how he has behaved in the last 2 times he's been on here, but it seems people only see the person he was and refuse to accept that things have changed.

I don't think L is some kind of sociopath that has a lot of people fooled and is just waiting for his chance to get on here to bully people, nothing he has done since I've been here (he's come back twice) has suggested that. And to want to make him grovel then say it's not good enough because he didn't do so in a particular way is petty imo. Earlier in his thread it was said that he should have tried to apologise, then that it should be him to contact people on other media to apologise, then that he should apologise to particular people directly, then that his apology is not sincere. We could have saved a lot of time in this thread if a straight up no, and no had been given instead of setting expectations to jump to then criticising them. It hasn't been said that these things will result in him coming back, just that he should do so. Well, my morals say that if you request an apology then get one, you shouldn't start picking it apart and saying it wasn't a good enough apology. And I'm afraid Lex that this is the point that I can't sympathise with the other side because this is very poor behaviour.

I'm not fighting this cause because I particularly love L or even know him that well. We're not FB friends but have a quick chat on Skype every now and then. We had a laugh in ACF years ago, heintroduced me to Death Note which I loved. I'm pretty sure he has given me a hard time in the past and vice versa. I'm not labouring this point because of any friendship that makes me blind to who he really is. I'm doing this because I see a guy that was part of a community, fucked up... and fucked up royally, then on coming back, behaves himself but is kicked out again and again regardless. I just think that's wrong and it smacks of a vindictive attitude from the people he upset that I find very unsettling.

I think I would have more understanding for the other side if there was a bit more disclosure. I don't want to force anyone to dredge up stuff that will distress them, but it's as much a blanket conversation when one side is saying let's move on and put that in the past while the other is saying I can't it upset me deeply. There's nothing to work with on either side there as it shuts down any dialogue that could be.

I guess what I worry about most is the vindictiveness of all of this. IMO it's not right.

Edit: I'm not guilt tripping, believe me there is a lot of things here I could guilt trip people about, but it's not my style. I worry that shit I have said or done in the past is going to get hashed up and rubbed in my face down the line as it seems people can't move on. I don't believe in harbouring grudges and ill feeling towards a person over the long term, I feel it does more harm than good. But there's nothing I can say here that won't make y'all see what you want to see and jump down my throat, which is a big part of why I put this thread up in the first place, so as much as I dislike the deliberate misdirection of what I'm saying, I'm out.

I disagree that you're guilt-tripping, but there is.. something off about it that I'm not quite putting my finger on. Listen, I don't want to be the petty party; I don't want to be the single vote against Scott but when the brunt of the thread has said "Well, I've never personally dealt with the abuse he dishes out" well, that's when I had to speak up. Because while it may have been a few years ago, and while some may say "Well, it's just Channy" it's still really shitty behavior for a person to do. I know, hypocrite that I am but it's true.

What he's done and said in the past to me (sexual comments, but mostly physical and weight related), my friends, my ex (bf at the time), directly and indirectly (simply referencing me in threads that I wasn't a part of) is all just really shitty behavior of a person. No different than the sort of abuse and bullying you take as a child. And as much as I would love to believe in the good of people that he is a changed man, there is always some sort of malingering doubt that refuses to go because of proof.

So I'm sorry if it sounds like I'm just not letting past shit go. Sometimes it's not as easy as saying it out loud. But when you put your hand on the stove and burn it, you can probably bet you're not going to do it again.

 

[Mariketsu]

I have to agree with a lot of the points made here. In the end, it seems to really come down to the people who were hurt individually, imo. Some people may remain uncomfortable, others may not and well, that's us just being human beings. Sometimes we make mistakes to the point that things are lost permanently.

Hell, even I tried to give a former high school friend another chance 3 years after he acted increasingly weird to bordering on psychopathy, but, even though he acknowledged how he acted was wrong, he refused to realize that we had to start over, instead trying to sweep that whole mess under the rug and act like it never happened, like nothing had changed at all (he broke my trust severely with his crazy/mean antics). After that, I just wasn't having it anymore so I cut him off.

My Point is, sometimes people give chances, some more than others and some may never feel comfortable doing so. Sorry if I'm repeating myself xD, but, again, it seems it all comes down to an individual basis. Just my say on the matter.

~ Raz

 

[Mage]

Cab, in the event you aren't as done here as you currently feel, be aware that I'm very nearly at the point of closing this thread and putting the kibosh on further discussion about this due to your increasingly uncooperative and -- being completely honest -- insulting dialogue. Everyone else has discussed this with civility and good faith.

It's clear from your last post that this is more about you than L, so let me be clear: Anybody who wants to dredge up past grievances against you to challenge your place here has long since missed their chance.

I have no idea WTF this post even means. Cab did nothing more than her usual style of provoking thought and dialogue on something she felt there needed better clarification on. I've just read through four pages and not seen where this is about Cab. Feel free to enlighten me.

There is nothing here to warrant closing the thread at the time it was written and I'm just pissed I wasn't here a week ago. Do you know she felt under attack and has taken a hiatus? What a way to treat a member. There's something not right about this place and hasn't been for a while - why attack someone you disagree with like that? I keep getting the impression that if someone posts a comment that falls outside of the usual 'nod along' responses, they're getting singled out and criticised, whether the criticism is fair or not.


I know this is going to come off as biased because I'm friends with both Cab and L, but the request for a discussion on the matter wasn't unreasonable, but shooting Cab's comments down with 'it's a permaban, the hint is in the title' isn't conducive to discussion either.
I think it says a lot about the present state of mind from some members that I am going to clarify that was paraphrasing one of Force's comments.

Not that it matters any more now, but when I first joined ACF I got some fucking awful treatment from L. I don't know how it compares to anyone else's experience but my early ventures into the spam section on a couple of occasions had me logging off rather upset, to the point I thought about abandoning the forum altogether. The only reason I didn't was because I'm a brassy cunt and gave as good as I got in response.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I concluded this was more about her when she seemed to say so in her last post: "I worry that shit I have said or done in the past is going to get hashed up and rubbed in my face down the line as it seems people can't move on."

I'm sorry she felt attacked (really), but if she felt attacked by a post where I promised to take up for her if someone tried to start something, I don't think there's much I could have done to avoid that.

 

[Geostigma]

There is nothing here to warrant closing the thread at the time it was written and I'm just pissed I wasn't here a week ago. Do you know she felt under attack and has taken a hiatus? What a way to treat a member. There's something not right about this place and hasn't been for a while - why attack someone you disagree with like that? I keep getting the impression that if someone posts a comment that falls outside of the usual 'nod along' responses, they're getting singled out and criticised, whether the criticism is fair or not.

Idk about all this.

Literally no one attacked her here ,and the extremely slight amount of criticism she did receive was in regards to her saying we were all being petty and vindictive. Didn't realize not wanting to be called petty and vindictive and pointing it out is attacking someone.

It wasn't my intention to attack or make Cab feel slighted, and I highly doubt anyone else here wanted to do that as well.

None the less though I'm sure many of us here , myself included, are sad to hear she feels that way. Personally I just figured with Holidays being well the Holidays, that she was taking a Holiday
Knowing now that this thread made her want to approach TLS with caution is a bummer and hopefully we can work towards making her feel more welcome around here.

As far as the implied cliqueness of TLS atm. I don't think it's like that. I more often then not somehow always disagree with lots of points here and don't feel jumped on. Let's not forget how actually shitty TLS was when it certainly did have a clique roaming around here

Not that it matters any more now, but when I first joined ACF I got some fucking awful treatment from L. I don't know how it compares to anyone else's experience but my early ventures into the spam section on a couple of occasions had me logging off rather upset, to the point I thought about abandoning the forum altogether. The only reason I didn't was because I'm a brassy cunt and gave as good as I got in response.

There's a gigantic difference between what we did to new members in the Spam section on ACF and what is allowed on TLS though. Even as a environmental effect in ways.

New people like yourself would pop into Spam and knew that if they just stuck with it and could handle being told to "fly away noob" for the millionth time they might be allowed in 6 months down the road. It was like a shitty frat with stupid hazing rituals.

Except in L's case he was like that Frat guy who finally graduated and decided sticking a broom handle up his new Bosses ass was an excellent idea. Repeatedly. There's a time and a place and TLS was never meant to be either. So naturally people who didn't come from ACF aren't gonna take that shit and even some people from ACF were pretty tired of it too.

 

[Lex]

[EDIT: @DN (Post now deleted by DN)]:I don't want to make you feel stupid or like your opinion doesn't matter, but the L discussion was kind of over and continuing it like that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I understand that you wanted to share your opinion but I'm not sure that does us any good at this point.

@Cab stuff:

Knowing now that this thread made her want to approach TLS with caution is a bummer and hopefully we can work towards making her feel more welcome around here.

That's really all I want to say about it. A lot of us are fiery opinionated people and Cab is one of those people, so I'm surprised that this has affected her but more importantly I'm sorry that it has and I hope she'll come back soon. We clash sometimes but I always enjoy reading what she's got to say/ chatting with her on Skype (haven't done so in a while actually).

 

[Channy]

I spoke with Cab by PM a few times after the thread kinda dwindled and she did indicate she was taking a bit of a break, but the two of us had settled things. I held nothing against her, she knows that, and understood where I was coming from with the L thing, but she did feel slighted by others and said she was stepping away for a while. I think things kinda escalated in a weird way when it didn't need to, and maybe it came from interpretation of assuming people were feeling one way when they weren't.

....<_< vague enough yet?