Relationship between Remake and the original? (split from the "How many parts?" thread)

#1
I thought the ending was stupid as hell, and has sucked a lot of the potential tension and buildup out of future parts. The idea of AC Sephiroth poking around in the past but limited in some way in his actions is something I could see being fun. Just as I was fine with a lot of the earlier segments that just seemed like playful nodding at the fact that the Remake kinda knows that it's a remake. But the idea that Zack can somehow be around while the original party is on a roughly similar trajectory makes no freaking sense at all and basically unravels the greatest narrative moment in the original, is a bridge too far. So yeah, I do hope it fizzles to a stupid nothing. I'd rather it be a blemish on part 1 than on the whole project.
But even with all that, I'm definitely nowhere near Shad's level. The fact that 90% of the game was more than I could have ever imagined is enough for me to be excited to see that kind of treatment to future moments. Assuming any of them still exist.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#2
But the idea that Zack can somehow be around while the original party is on a roughly similar trajectory makes no freaking sense at all and basically unravels the greatest narrative moment in the original, is a bridge too far.
Zack isn't around. The "Zack" that passed Cloud the Buster Sword is clearly dead because Cloud is carrying it on his back, still his FFVII self and proceeding with said story.

There is an alternate Zack, in an alternate universe that is seemingly going on his own adventure which we have no idea how is going to resolve.

I really don't think their intention is unraveling that moment. It's literally one of the most memorable and important to them. They're not dumb, it's just an AU that they clearly intend to mess with later. But not in regards to undoing the main scenario.

Otherwise the telegraph of Stamp, the nature of the obvious difference of the result, and Cloud staying himself as he metaphorically passes by Zack would not meaning anything.
 

Fiz

Pro Adventurer
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Eh?
#4
There's so much uncertainty with Zack that I think it's barely worth talking about at the moment. Who knows where that's going.
Yeah, I'd assume him alive and probably playable, I'd also probably assume he will become part of the group. But I wouldn't want to go too deep into how that will take shape because there are so many possibilities.
 

KindOfBlue

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Blue
#5
Technically Square did remake the Midgar portion but they also technically lied to us. This is not a Remake, this is a sequel.
But...it isn’t? A sequel implies you’d have to play the OG and the Compilation to follow the narrative and seeing as we’ve all done that and still don’t know what the hell is happening, I’m less inclined to call this a sequel. I know some new players might be interested to play the OG after the remake but I don’t think you have to do it really.

That to me seems like the fans doing the hype work FOR Square Enix when the work on its own should accomplish that level of interest. Instead people have to go through all these hoops, reading developer interviews and engaging in big-brain conspiracy theories and speculations to generate an investment in what's to come.
I don’t know if this is a fair statement, the reception to the game was pretty positive and none of this hype would exist if not for the work itself

For over 20 years I had dreamt of a Remake and the game delivered so much on that decades-long dream...only to get the ground beneath my feet shattered. I did not play Remake so that I could be humbled by the uncertainty of the future and have my basic expectations shattered. Real life already delivers plenty of those hard-to-swallow pills and even moreso now with covid.
It’s unfortunate that you feel that way about the remake, and I hope somehow it wins you over in the future. I guess I just don’t find anything particularly disappointing about this game. Is it stupid? Yes, but there’s plenty of stupidity in the OG. Does it betray the OG? Some people may think so but clearly the people who actually made it don’t feel that way and with how positive the reception is, I wonder where the disconnect lies exactly. Is it different? In some ways yes but they still faithfully remade what they said they would even with what they’ve added. So it’s like, I can understand these feelings but I just don’t see this direction as anything too subversive, at least not yet and certainly not to a point deserving of some of the most dramatic reactions I’ve seen. Like damn, you’d think Zack bashed Cloud’s head in with a golf club while Tifa helplessly watched or something with how some people reacted to this game lol.

Admittedly, I’m not in the best position to understand this sentiment seeing as I played the OG for the first time shortly before the remake. But I guess my feeling about all of this is that despite all of the fanfare, how much has actually changed? Are the characters really in that much of a different place than where they were in the OG? We can talk about the execution of the ending, sure, but as for what it means for the rest of the story, we simply aren’t there yet so there’s only so much I can say before all I have left is to make judgements on what might be rather than what is.

But the idea that Zack can somehow be around while the original party is on a roughly similar trajectory makes no freaking sense at all and basically unravels the greatest narrative moment in the original, is a bridge too far. So yeah, I do hope it fizzles to a stupid nothing. I'd rather it be a blemish on part 1 than on the whole project.
Well we don’t know anything else about Zack other than what they’ve shown us so I don’t think any of us are in a position to make conclusions yet. I will say though, I don’t think they went through all this trouble just for it to be little more than a drop in the ocean and it’d be pretty pointless if it was. Where they go with this is what matters most to me more than any wild idea in itself...or most ideas, at least. I can tolerate some pretty ridiculous stuff but I’ve got my limits too lol.

I guess for me personally, I'd rather see artists do what they really want to and enjoy themselves rather than slavishly adhere to the expectations fans have for them.

I'm Tim Rogers' stupidly long video about the remake, he called the very idea of remaking FF7 an "existential nightmare" for Square. It's something that had been hanging over them for a very long time, something they kept getting asked about by fans and industry insiders alike. How do you think it felt to get asked "please remake ff7" by the first person to buy FF12 at its launch event? How do you think it felt to, time and time again, fail to surpass a game you made 24 years earlier in terms of public perception and sales? Do you think Nomura wants to be directing the FF7 remake? Nojima writing it? I get the feeling the answer is "no." I'm sure they would rather expend their creativity on something new and original, but here we are. Obviously nobody was forced to do anything, but I have to imagine that having FF7's long shadow hanging over them must be frustrating. I can't be mad if they want to take their own spin on retelling the story to get some creative fulfillment out of it. Of course, that's my opinion. Be dissatisfied if you want to be lol.
This is absolutely my attitude when it comes to stuff like this. If anybody thought this game was a cash grab before, imagine if they didn’t even want to remake the game. And yet the irony here is that had they gone for something more true to the OG even if they were uninspired to do so because “screw it, let’s just rehash what we already did and get it over with already” I imagine the purists who didn’t like the remake might be more satisfied.

M.O.T.O.R. would literally have been the lamest final boss possible.

People were speculating about how they'd replace it with something/someone even before we knew what Chapter 18 contained. So that was never gonna happen. Sephiroth was ironically the perfect choice. The next best one would have been Jenova.
Yeah, a Sephiroth fight was inevitable. No way we’d wait even longer just to face him. Hell, one of the reasons I think we could get three parts is because I can’t think of another excuse to put in a Sephiroth fight for each part other than having Cloud fight him in the Nibelheim flashback for part 2 and then saving the last fight for the end of part 3.

If we go as far as the Forgotten City or the Northern Crater, Jenova’s an obvious pick for a final boss. Or maybe they could do something with Zack. If not a final boss, I at least wonder if we can get a Cloud and Zack fight with Cloud just completely mindscrewed because he doesn’t remember who Zack is yet. Or another idea is maybe a boss fight against a Jenova-influenced Cloud?
 

ultima786

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ultima
#6
Fun fact: I've been supremely bored with the OG for years. :monster:

I genuinely think that FFVIIR is leagues better than the original game. Square Enix showed with FFVIIR that they can approach and reach modern "triple-A" quality in games, which is far more than I would have expected from Square. The excellent dialogue and voice acting alone has no right to exist, given the mediocre dialogue I usually associate their titles with. I still can hardly comprehend that we live in a timeline where Square developed a title of such high quality.

The developers indeed owe me nothing. I have more sympathy for their burden, always living in the shadow of the original FF7 as Odysseus put it, than I have bitterness towards them for "lying" about Remake. But my heart remains broken and there is nothing I can do about it other than wait. I know from experience that I can't force my heart to heal. The pain only gets worse if I try. So all I can do is wait.
OK so let's move this conversation to: What could the Whispers become that would unbreak the heart?

I've been thinking about this a lot. I think there is already a strong indication from Aerith that the Whispers are just the Cries of the Planet. If part 2 can simply show how Gaia has emotions, feelings, and these are manifestations of those misplaced feelings.... in a word, if they can explain how they are closely tied to OG lore, would this help? We would still have to grapple with the new element of 'time' which APPEARS to be an addition to the original lore. But to me, believing that the Lifestream is just an eternal, timeless flow would be more than enough to resolve their ability to act across history.

Edit: I should add, did they lie about Remake?
 

Sephiroth Crescent

Way Inside of the Pot
#7
OK so let's move this conversation to: What could the Whispers become that would unbreak the heart?

I've been thinking about this a lot. I think there is already a strong indication from Aerith that the Whispers are just the Cries of the Planet. If part 2 can simply show how Gaia Planet the Kid has emotions, feelings, and these are manifestations of those misplaced feelings.... in a word, if they can explain how they are closely tied to OG lore, would this help? We would still have to grapple with the new element of 'time' which APPEARS to be an addition to the original lore. But to me, believing that the Lifestream is just an eternal, timeless flow would be more than enough to resolve their ability to act across history.
Ninja-fix.

I should add, did they lie about Remake?
I don't think they exactly lied, but talking about how big Midgar was that you'd have to ride a motorcycle was at least a bit misleading, unless some translator messed with words (haven't checked). Maybe someone else has other examples of misleading things. No biggie for me, though.
 

KindOfBlue

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Blue
#8
in a word, if they can explain how they are closely tied to OG lore, would this help?
I mean, the purpose of the Whispers preserving destiny isn’t all that different from the Weapons defending the planet...what they’ve seemingly done really is taken elements of the Weapons and the Lifestream and leaned more into the time stuff that was only alluded to previously

Edit: I should add, did they lie about Remake?
I didn’t follow the promotions much so I can’t really say, but did they remake the Midgar portion of the story as they said they would? Yes, they did

Fun fact: I've been supremely bored with the OG for years. :monster:

I genuinely think that FFVIIR is leagues better than the original game. Square Enix showed with FFVIIR that they can approach and reach modern "triple-A" quality in games, which is far more than I would have expected from Square. The excellent dialogue and voice acting alone has no right to exist, given the mediocre dialogue I usually associate their titles with. I still can hardly comprehend that we live in a timeline where Square developed a title of such high quality.

The developers indeed owe me nothing. I have more sympathy for their burden, always living in the shadow of the original FF7 as Odysseus put it, than I have bitterness towards them for "lying" about Remake. But my heart remains broken and there is nothing I can do about it other than wait. I know from experience that I can't force my heart to heal. The pain only gets worse if I try. So all I can do is wait.
Even if the heartbreak feeling still seems a bit hyperbolic to me, you certainly have a much better attitude than most of the remake’s detractors
 

Fiz

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Eh?
#9
I should add, did they lie about Remake?
I think this comes down to a never ending argument about what the word "remake" means, where some people start using very rigid definitions whereas others consider the term remake to be more fluid. It ends up boiling down to what level of change constitutes it not being a remake at all. That in itself is so subjective as to be meaningless.

There are people who think moving away from turn based is an affront to the original and makes Remake a lie. Others feel like whether the battles are turn based or action is irrelevant. Then there are people who think any change in dialogue has bastardised the original, I've seen people having hissy fits over stuff that to me seems ridiculous... some that even border on the unhinged (nobody here, I mean like in YT reaction videos, some people are a bit... weird). Then there are other people who consider Remake to be really faithful despite the changes because most of it is.

I think people who claim they've been lied to are wrong, because if a company ever says they're remaking something then I would assume some fluidity over what that might mean. But at the same time, nobody is going to change anyones minds because what passes as OK is subjective.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
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TresDias
#10
For all I know, I'll end up hating the remake by its end despite my present excitement, so who but Sephiroth -- and to a lesser extent Aerith -- knows what the future holds. :monster:

And Nojima has made it abundantly clear what it's like when he doesn't want to be working on a given story ...
I mostly figured that was his idea and he was processing some mid-life shit. He's not been a Square employee per se for a good many years now, so I suspect he writes what he feels compelled to and SE entertains his impulses. "The Kids Are Alright," for example, came completely out of nowhere, at a time when FFVII and the Compilation were so far on the back burner they had fallen behind the stove.

A sequel implies you’d have to play the OG and the Compilation to follow the narrative and seeing as we’ve all done that and still don’t know what the hell is happening, I’m less inclined to call this a sequel.
I think most of us use "sequel" to mean "occurs successively in a fictional continuity's sequence of events." By our (mostly) common understanding that Remake is -- as a matter of cause and effect -- happening because the original game's sequence of events happened, that fulfills the qualification.

Some may get into a tizzy over whether it's accurate to claim "Finding Dory" is a sequel or a spin-off, but I'm going to call it a sequel and get on with gettin' on. :wacky:
 
AKA
The Engineer
#11
But...it isn’t? A sequel implies you’d have to play the OG and the Compilation to follow the narrative and seeing as we’ve all done that and still don’t know what the hell is happening, I’m less inclined to call this a sequel. I know some new players might be interested to play the OG after the remake but I don’t think you have to do it really.
I find it very telling that SE is releasing Ever Crisis. And even teasing it with it being *another* way that they could remake the OG... with the implication that Ever Crisis is the "faithful" remake people wanted. Ever Crisis is... essentially the devs getting everyone "up to speed" on what happened in the Compilation already. Whatever is coming in Part 2, they really want us to know the story of the Compilation already. That alone tells me Remake is more of a squeal to the Compilation than anything else.
Edit: I should add, did they lie about Remake?
Technically no. They are very much "threading the needle" with what info they are giving out. It feels like they're making sure everything they say *technically* isn't a lie... while the way the audience will take it is very different than what they actually mean or are really talking about. However, the fact that it feels like they are doing that... makes it feels like they are purposely hiding something that they maybe should be talked about. If just so that they don't give people the wrong impression about what game they are actually making.

And that I think *definetly* happened. While I don't think NKN outright *lied*, I do think they really, really, really, dropped the ball when it came to setting player expectations appropriately with the marketing. They spent too much "time" in trailers showing how Remake was going to be "the same" as the OG. And very little time showing how substantial the changes were going to be. There's more than enough plot elements that are different from the OG that aren't... massive spoilers for where Remake was going to go. And I'm... still kind of shocked they didn't spend more time exposing people to the idea that there would be very large changes in Remake to the plot.

Show us stuff like Leaf House, Jessie's dad, Cloud going nuts and almost killing Jonny. Things that we *know* didn't happen in the OG and that can't be interpretated as "they extended this scene in the OG". As far as I can tell, everything the marketing showed us was rooted in scenes we wanted to see from the OG. There was new stuff *added* to the scenes, but nothing like a completely new event that never happened in the OG. And I think showing more of that in the marketing would have helped prepare certain sections of the fandom for the kind of game they were getting. Rather than smack them in the face with it out of nowhere.

My initial reaction to Remake was like Shademp's. The kind of game Remake turned out to be was not the game SE made me think I was getting. The only way I have become okay with it is deciding that SE failed on the marketing. And that they should have marketed this very differently than they did.

Because... going into Remake assuming it is a *sequal* to the Compilation makes it really, really fun. I like the Compilation, especially Crisis Core, and you can see the same design logic of Crisis Core's story-telling all over Remake. Remake very much feels like it picked up where Crisis Core left off (just with the good Crisis Core ending a lot of people hoped they could get). Do I want to see where Remake *as a sequal* goes? Hell yes!

The trouble is... getting to "this is a squeal to the Compilation" is... not at all how this game was marketed. It was marketed as being the game everyone has wanted since FF8 was made: a remake of the OG with amazing graphics. And with Ever Crisis being a thing... I'd say we now know we are never going to get that...
 

KindOfBlue

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Blue
#12
By our (mostly) common understanding that Remake is -- as a matter of cause and effect -- happening because the original game's sequence of events happened, that fulfills the qualification.
But we don’t actually know if the events of the original actually happened already in-universe, otherwise wouldn’t any remake of anything also be a sequel by virtue of just coming out at a later time? The OG only really “happened” to those of us who played it already, so I would think the remake would need to establish in-universe that the OG already happened for it to be a sequel so I think spin-off would be more accurate in this case

I find it very telling that SE is releasing Ever Crisis. And even teasing it with it being *another* way that they could remake the OG... with the implication that Ever Crisis is the "faithful" remake people wanted. Ever Crisis is... essentially the devs getting everyone "up to speed" on what happened in the Compilation already. Whatever is coming in Part 2, they really want us to know the story of the Compilation already. That alone tells me Remake is more of a squeal to the Compilation than anything else.
Well the remake is going to include material from the whole Compilation so of course they’ll want to make it more accessible but I don’t think that’s enough to make the remake itself a sequel if the events of the Compilation still haven’t actually occurred...while it would certainly help to have an awareness of the Compilation, you don’t actually need it from what we’ve seen so far

a remake of the OG with amazing graphics.
That is quite literally what they did lol
 

Fiz

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Eh?
#13
I find it very telling that SE is releasing Ever Crisis. And even teasing it with it being *another* way that they could remake the OG... with the implication that Ever Crisis is the "faithful" remake people wanted. Ever Crisis is... essentially the devs getting everyone "up to speed" on what happened in the Compilation already. Whatever is coming in Part 2, they really want us to know the story of the Compilation already. That alone tells me Remake is more of a squeal to the Compilation than anything else.Technically no. They are very much "threading the needle" with what info they are giving out. It feels like they're making sure everything they say *technically* isn't a lie... while the way the audience will take it is very different than what they actually mean or are really talking about. However, the fact that it feels like they are doing that... makes it feels like they are purposely hiding something that they maybe should be talked about. If just so that they don't give people the wrong impression about what game they are actually making.

And that I think *definetly* happened. While I don't think NKN outright *lied*, I do think they really, really, really, dropped the ball when it came to setting player expectations appropriately with the marketing. They spent too much "time" in trailers showing how Remake was going to be "the same" as the OG. And very little time showing how substantial the changes were going to be. There's more than enough plot elements that are different from the OG that aren't... massive spoilers for where Remake was going to go. And I'm... still kind of shocked they didn't spend more time exposing people to the idea that there would be very large changes in Remake to the plot.

Show us stuff like Leaf House, Jessie's dad, Cloud going nuts and almost killing Jonny. Things that we *know* didn't happen in the OG and that can't be interpretated as "they extended this scene in the OG". As far as I can tell, everything the marketing showed us was rooted in scenes we wanted to see from the OG. There was new stuff *added* to the scenes, but nothing like a completely new event that never happened in the OG. And I think showing more of that in the marketing would have helped prepare certain sections of the fandom for the kind of game they were getting. Rather than smack them in the face with it out of nowhere.

My initial reaction to Remake was like Shademp's. The kind of game Remake turned out to be was not the game SE made me think I was getting. The only way I have become okay with it is deciding that SE failed on the marketing. And that they should have marketed this very differently than they did.

Because... going into Remake assuming it is a *sequal* to the Compilation makes it really, really fun. I like the Compilation, especially Crisis Core, and you can see the same design logic of Crisis Core's story-telling all over Remake. Remake very much feels like it picked up where Crisis Core left off (just with the good Crisis Core ending a lot of people hoped they could get). Do I want to see where Remake *as a sequal* goes? Hell yes!

The trouble is... getting to "this is a squeal to the Compilation" is... not at all how this game was marketed. It was marketed as being the game everyone has wanted since FF8 was made: a remake of the OG with amazing graphics. And with Ever Crisis being a thing... I'd say we now know we are never going to get that...
I think this is a damned if they do and damned if they don't kind of thing. I don't think they have done anything wrong or badly tbh.

Firstly, this "they hid that there would be changes" thing... here is the trailer:



The trailer showed various things that are obvious changes:

1. Sephiroth appearing in front of Jenova, Aerith telling the group that this is in fact Jenova, Sephiroth saying "a touching reuinion" before Cloud charges at him.

2. We clearly see the whispers flying around the Shinra building and the group

3. Aerith announcing that Shinra isn't the real enemy and something more serious afoot

If that wasn't enough to be like "okay, something is going on with this" then I don't know what is. Those are some pretty big changes, and something like Remake kind of works on the surprise. I think they gave as much as they could. I'm not really sure what people want SE to have done differently in the marketing?

How exactly do they tell us that its a "requel" without spoiling it? If they'd shown extra stuff with Jessie, where would they be now? In exactly the same place because people would then be saying "well they told us they were just expanding it".

I also don't think it helps that people try to twist what they're saying into what they want to hear. Like the statements they've made after Remake, I feel like they're quite clear. Then other people seem to think they're saying it'll all be the same, when thats not what they're saying.

It almost verges on people needing to be spoon fed exactly what it is and exactly what will be changing before they will accept that there might even be changes, and unless SE spoon feed them with the info then they will have been lied to.

I'm already expecting it, when part 2 drops there is going to be this whole hoo-har that its diverged in some substantial ways and that SE have been lying to them because they said "they aren't changing FFVII into something completely different", while a lot of us will then be sat there going 🤦🏻‍♂️ at it all.
 

KindOfBlue

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Blue
#14
It almost verges on people needing to be spoon fed exactly what it is and exactly what will be changing before they will accept that there might even be changes, and unless SE spoon feed them with the info then they will have been lied to.
I like to apply Occam’s razor with stuff like this. People will find all sorts of ways to explain how the changes work and there’s this meta narrative that directly ties into the compilation by way of in-universe plot devices. Which isn’t wrong per se, I just feel like a lot of that stuff can be explained more simply by just accepting that it’s a remake and not a sequel and moving on lol. Like why is Aerith more powerful this time? We could make hours of commentary exploring the vast meta-narrative devices and lore across all of the compilation and related novels to find an answer OR...we shrug our shoulders, just say “because they remade the story and she can do that now” and move on. Now, if they firmly establish that the OG already happened in-universe, then I’ll be more inclined to call it a sequel.
 

ultima786

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ultima
#15
I didn't mean to get a whole thing going about if Shademp should like the remake or not lol. The man is free to like what he likes and dislike what he dislikes. I was just trying to say that things being different was basically inevitable because Nomura, Nojima and the rest of them are very creative people, and being that they're remaking the game they've been stuck in the shadow of for most of their careers, they're gonna do it their way. I agree with Tres that the prospect of something new is much more exciting than the alternative, but I know not everyone is going to feel that way, and that's fine.
I just think throwing around terms like betrayal and heartbreak is a bit dramatic lol.
i think the word 'heartbreak' is real enough for a lot of people. The fact that this game means SO MUCH to people ... it's kinda expected that some or even many would feel heartbreak at changes like what we saw. All i'm saying is, if we can emerge from that feeling realizing that we were treating OG like a family member that we felt were entitled to a certain type of experience, a certain feeling, a certain love and honoring... when we can move past that it was US who were privelaged to experience this heart-felt story and characters.... we will realize we can experience the FF7 world anew without all the strings attached. That's my humble take.

...Like why is Aerith more powerful this time? We could make hours of commentary exploring the vast meta-narrative devices and lore across all of the compilation and related novels to find an answer OR...we shrug our shoulders, just say “because they remade the story and she can do that now” and move on. Now, if they firmly establish that the OG already happened in-universe, then I’ll be more inclined to call it a sequel.
I think enjoying the OG's relation to Remake gives it spice and context and more meaning. It doesn't have to devolve into feeling betrayed. It appears clear to me though, with all the flash-backs (flash forwards?) in remake that the developers do have a layer of meaning that cannot be fully appreciated without OG and some sense that "this new story wants the old story to be on your mind as you experience it."
 

Fiz

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Eh?
#16
I like to apply Occam’s razor with stuff like this. People will find all sorts of ways to explain how the changes work and there’s this meta narrative that directly ties into the compilation by way of in-universe plot devices. Which isn’t wrong per se, I just feel like a lot of that stuff can be explained more simply by just accepting that it’s a remake and not a sequel and moving on lol. Like why is Aerith more powerful this time? We could make hours of commentary exploring the vast meta-narrative devices and lore across all of the compilation and related novels to find an answer OR...we shrug our shoulders, just say “because they remade the story and she can do that now” and move on. Now, if they firmly establish that the OG already happened in-universe, then I’ll be more inclined to call it a sequel.
This is where I disagree though, I don't think you need to go into any massive meta discussion or deep dive of the compilation.

Using Aerith as an example, it's alluding strongly that Aerith is already kinda dead and is now something different to what she was in OG.

A few examples of this...

1. The flash forwards showing her death (this makes it not a straight up Remake)
2. Chadley tries to Access her and can't, commenting that something is unfathomable about her
3. Marlene pulls away from her looking a little scared, Aerith tells her to shush, then Marlene to my eyes looked like she was checking Aerith is actually physically real when she reaches her hand out to her.
4. Marlene then comments that "Aerith is kinda..." and stops

Then load everything else about her new powers on top of it and I don't think we need a huge discussion to conclude that the likely completion of that sentence is probably "Aerith is kinda a ghost" - or something along those lines. Probably more like we are seeing Guardian of the Planet Aerith in a physical form rather than OG Aerith.

I don't think "is this history repeating itself after the compilation" is really the interesting thing to discuss, I tend towards questions like "is Aerith even mortal?" in Remake, or are her and Sephiroth "something else"?

To firmly establish now amounts to spoiling the plot of Remake, and in execution I don't think its a sequel in the normal sense, I think its a remake and a sequel in one. Remake isn't being subtle.
 
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ultima786

Pro Adventurer
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ultima
#17
2. Chadley tries to Access her and can't, commenting that something is unfathomable about her
Wait what? lol, where is this? But anyhow, this doesn't mean she's dead. It just means she's deep. But maybe she's dead, or rather, some sort of consciousness emerged from the Lifestream.
 

KindOfBlue

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Blue
#19
i think the word 'heartbreak' is real enough for a lot of people. The fact that this game means SO MUCH to people ... it's kinda expected that some or even many would feel heartbreak at changes like what we saw. All i'm saying is, if we can emerge from that feeling realizing that we were treating OG like a family member that we felt were entitled to a certain type of experience, a certain feeling, a certain love and honoring... when we can move past that it was US who were privelaged to experience this heart-felt story and characters.... we will realize we can experience the FF7 world anew without all the strings attached. That's my humble take.



I think enjoying the OG's relation to Remake gives it spice and context and more meaning. It doesn't have to devolve into feeling betrayed. It appears clear to me though, with all the flash-backs (flash forwards?) in remake that the developers do have a layer of meaning that cannot be fully appreciated without OG and some sense that "this new story wants the old story to be on your mind as you experience it."
Oh I’m not saying there isn’t a connection to the OG that enhances the remake, I’m just saying that in itself doesn’t make it any less of a remake
 

Fiz

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Eh?
#20
Wait what? lol, where is this?
When you visit Sector 5, after you've delivered the flowers to The Leaf House and Aerith goes inside and tells you to explore the town. If you spoke to Chadley he will collect your completed quests and offer the Summon VR. Don't speak to Chadley, ignore him. Return to the Leaf House, once Aerith is in your party, then go speak to him and he will have an optional scene with Aerith. He attempts to "scan her" but can't, comments that its all very strange.

But anyhow, this doesn't mean she's dead. It just means she's deep.
I don't know, when these things happen they tend to mean a certain thing. Plus, add everything else on top and it does point in that direction, no?

But maybe she's dead, or rather, some sort of consciousness emerged from the Lifestream.
Something like that I think.
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
#21
This is where I disagree though, I don't think you need to go into any massive meta discussion or deep dive of the compilation.

Using Aerith as an example, it's alluding strongly that Aerith is already kinda dead and is now something different to what she was in OG.

A few examples of this...

1. The flash forwards showing her death (this makes it not a straight up Remake)
2. Chadley tries to Access her and can't, commenting that something is unfathomable about her
3. Marlene pulls away from her looking a little scared, Aerith tells her to shush, then Marlene to my eyes looked like she was checking Aerith is actually physically real when she reaches her hand out to her.
4. Marlene then comments that "Aerith is kinda..." and stops

Then load everything else about her new powers on top of it and I don't think we need a huge discussion to conclude that the likely completion of that sentence is probably "Aerith is kinda a ghost" - or something along those lines. Probably more like we are seeing Guardian of the Planet Aerith in a physical form rather than OG Aerith.

I don't think "is this history repeating itself after the compilation" is really the interesting thing to discuss, I tend towards questions like "is Aerith even mortal?" in Remake, or are her and Sephiroth "something else"?

To firmly establish now amounts to spoiling the plot of Remake, and in execution I don't think its a sequel in the normal sense, I think its a remake and a sequel in one. Remake isn't being subtle.
That’s what I mean though, that you can explain it that way without the rest of the compilation
 
#23
For every developer statement like this:

View attachment 9434

There's an equal and opposite statement like:

View attachment 9435

Ultimately, the last word should be given to the game itself. On this topic, Remake plainly states:

View attachment 9436
I personally don't consider those two statements contradictory or equally opposite of each. Like change the subject to the 1933 King Kong to the 2005 King Kong, or Manhunter 1986 and Red Dragon 2002 or the Hannibal TV series to each other. They all tell the same the same general story and are not completely different but they are also new story takes and there is a level of unknown going into the new takes on the story, but none of those aforementioned examples are sequels to each other either.

I certainly didn't, and I've never heard anyone say so, in going-on 24 years.

For that matter, "This dude died and then came back to life" definitely didn't occur to me, and I'd bet every dollar I have that no one else considered that before they considered that he just went into hiding and has been biding his time for [X] reasons.
Eh, I've seen others assume that. But either way my greater point is that even with than change between the Remake and OG, it doesn't really spoil or ruin the upcoming twist for the characters or new players as their still remains a mystery of what exactly happened during the Nibelheim incident. And it would be completely in character for Sephiroth to use parts of the truth initially then twist it later just to gaslight and mess with Cloud's head.

This is where I disagree though, I don't think you need to go into any massive meta discussion or deep dive of the compilation.

Using Aerith as an example, it's alluding strongly that Aerith is already kinda dead and is now something different to what she was in OG.

A few examples of this...

1. The flash forwards showing her death (this makes it not a straight up Remake)
2. Chadley tries to Access her and can't, commenting that something is unfathomable about her
3. Marlene pulls away from her looking a little scared, Aerith tells her to shush, then Marlene to my eyes looked like she was checking Aerith is actually physically real when she reaches her hand out to her.
4. Marlene then comments that "Aerith is kinda..." and stops

Then load everything else about her new powers on top of it and I don't think we need a huge discussion to conclude that the likely completion of that sentence is probably "Aerith is kinda a ghost" - or something along those lines. Probably more like we are seeing Guardian of the Planet Aerith in a physical form rather than OG Aerith.

I don't think "is this history repeating itself after the compilation" is really the interesting thing to discuss, I tend towards questions like "is Aerith even mortal?" in Remake, or are her and Sephiroth "something else"?

To firmly establish now amounts to spoiling the plot of Remake, and in execution I don't think its a sequel in the normal sense, I think its a remake and a sequel in one. Remake isn't being subtle.
I really agree with @KindOfBlue on this matter, all that stuff you listed doesn't equal Aerith being a ghost or a Kaworu-esque time-traveler/looper, it seems far more simple to just interpret that Aerith can do that stuff and is more mysterious simply because as already stated it's “because they remade the story and she can do that now” than trying to interpret that as evidence of Aerith looping and being someone who has already experienced the OG events.

I could understand viewing the Remake as a "spiritual sequel" to the OG and Compilation in the sense that the Remake draws upon previous works as part of its creation and players who experienced the OG and Compilation can have an enhanced appreciation and understanding of the Remake.
But calling the Remake as sequel in the definition that its own narrative "occurs successively in a fictional continuity's sequence of events" in relation to the OG, like the Rebuild Evangelion films are to the TV series and End of Evangelion, just doesn't have enough evidence yet IMO. Currently it just seems like a Remake with a lot self-referential meta stuff in it, but nothing that firmly says the events of the OG have already occurred in some form already in the Remake's continuity/universe.
 
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