Sephiroth and Vincent: Unpsoken Ties

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Yeah, I know there are threads about Cloud and Sephiroth's foemance but lets look into a more underlooked one like Sephiroth and Vincent. Yeah, both have never had a personal face to face time with each other but there is so much connection between them that its got to have affected Vincent on some level. I mean Vincent is awoken from his self imposed isolation with the revelation that his beloved's son is now a madman who is going to destroy the earth. Vincent mostly angsts about Lucrecia but rarely seems to focus on her son as his own person. He seems to see Sephiroth either as an extension of Lucrecia or Hojo. In both cases seeing it as his greatest failure. Although Sephiroth probably doesn't know jack about Vincent, most fans do wonder what would have happened if CC Sephiroth found Vincent and he told him the real truth instead of the fake stuff planted in the library.
 

Ravynne Nevyrmore

that one Lucrecia fangirl
AKA
Ravynne
The connections between Sephiroth and Vincent are the opposite of underlooked. Satan Impact, one of the first famous Vincent doujinshi from the 90s, was a Sephiroth/Vincent shounen-ai, and there used to be huge debates over whether or not Vincent was Sephiroth's actual father before all the ultimania guides came out and specified he was not. (I still like to think there was some question in Vincent's mind, but, headcanon. :monster:)

Or do you mean a connection between them aside from yaoi fanwank and paternity debates?
 

Starling

Pro Adventurer
I like to think that given the right circumstances, Vincent would've taken on a parental role in Sephiroth's life, even without being his actual father. After all, simply being Lucrecia's son seems to be enough. Because of this, I don't think I'm ever going to feel right shipping them. Now that said, Vincent and Sephiroth wouldn't necessarily get along if Seph were to simply find him during his visit to Nibelheim. I think the reason Vincent doesn't focus on Sephiroth as much as he does on Lucrecia is because he didn't get to know Sephiroth personally.
 
I don't think Vincent would have made much of a father. Better than Hojo, probably, but hardly father of the year. Fatherhood doesn't magically transform someone into a different man from the one he was before.

Also, can I just add that canonically Vincent had no qualms whatsoever about killing Lucretia's son. No "I hate to do this, but I know it has to be done" line.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Funny how Dirge fucked up all the ambiguity about Sephiroths parentage

From the OG:

Cloud …your son?
Hojo Ha, ha, ha… Although he doesn’t know. Ha, ha, ha… HA, HA, HA…!! What will Sephiroth think when he finds out I’m his father? Always looking down on me like that. HA, HA, HA…!!
Cloud Sephiroth is your son!?
Vincent ……!
Hojo Ha, ha, ha… I offered the woman with my child to Professor Gast’s Jenova Project. When Sephiroth was still in the womb, we took the cells of Jenova… HA, HA, HA!!
Vincent You……!
Cloud I can’t believe you’re the one who did this… The illusionary crime against Sephiroth…
Hojo Heee, hee, hee, hee! No you’re wrong! It’s my desire as a scientist! Heee, hee, hee, hee!
Vincent …… I was…wrong. The one that should have slept was… …You, Hojo!
Vincent is actually surprised by Hojo's revelation. The implication being Vincent thought it had been his baby, and unless Vincent has a 3rd graders understanding of how babies are made that implies he was bumping uglies with Lucy at the same time as Hojo. Ewww.
 
What does "illusionary crime against Sephiroth" mean, and what is it? I've always wondered.

If Vincent actually did think Sephiroth was his son, that makes it even odder than he never uttered a single line about how woeful it made him feel to have to hunt down and kill his own offspring, given how fond he was of beating himself up generally.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
What does "illusionary crime against Sephiroth" mean, and what is it? I've always wondered.

I'm wondering if it was a mistranslation, illusionary = hidden or secret perhaps? But even so it's a bit of an odd phrase to use.

If Vincent actually did think Sephiroth was his son, that makes it even odder than he never uttered a single line about how woeful it made him feel to have to hunt down and kill his own offspring, given how fond he was of beating himself up generally.

Yes, very much so. I'm wondering if that was the reason Dirge put the kibosh on any possibility of that being the case, otherwise Vincent becomes a callous bastard somewhat.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
What he went crazy over in Nibelheim was being bred in a tank like the things in the reactor. 'Illusory' because he was actually born.

I'm not sure Vincent knew how little Hojo cared for li'l Sephy.

Vince: Talk! Why did you let this happen?

Not 'why did you do this'. Maybe he thought it was Lucy or Gast's decision.
 

Ravynne Nevyrmore

that one Lucrecia fangirl
AKA
Ravynne
The content of DoC doesn't negate the possibility of Vincent being Sephiroth's father. If anything, I personally think an argument could be made for Vincent's uncertainty about the issue within the game (which I'll go into below). It's the ultimania guides explicitly stating that Hojo is Sephiroth's father without even bringing up the question of Vincent's paternity that negates the likelihood of Vincent being Sephiroth's father.

I don't think Vincent thought that Sephiroth was his son at the time of that scene on the cannon. If for no other reason than that Vincent would have known either way that Hojo THOUGHT Hojo was the father, so Hojo stating that he is Sephiroth's father wouldn't be any big revelation to Vincent. Kinda like this:

Vince: "Lol Hojo thinks Seph's his kid but actually I'm the father."
Hojo: "Sephiroth is my son."
Vince: "!!! OMG NO SHE LIIEEDDDD."

Does not make logicness. :monster:

I chalk it up to poor translation, I guess? :quote: I think what that scene was supposed to convey was Vincent's surprise that Hojo only ever cared about Sephiroth as a specimen and not as a son, which is a weird place in the dialogue to put that reaction, but I believe we've already covered ad nauseam how poorly that scene was translated in a way that accurately conveys what it was supposed to convey. (I can probably dig up the other threads that go over it if anyone needs me to.)

Either way, nothing that Hojo reveals to Cloud there—in English, at least—is new info to Vincent. (Except maybe the "It’s my desire as a scientist" bit, if that's meant to contrast the "It's my concern as a father" implication.) So his surprise is weird.

————————————————————

What I mean about DoC hinting at Vincent possibly having been unsure about his paternity or lack thereof at some point in time is this:

Vincent: Is it true?
Hojo: Is what true?
Vincent: That Lucrecia...that..Dr. Crescent is to take part in this project?
Lucrecia: It’s true. Why are you so surprised?
Vincent: But using your own child...for an experiment?
Hojo: HA! I don't know what you're implying, but both of us are scientists. We know what we are doing. You are the last person to have any word in this. Now, leave us at once, boy!
Vincent: But...
Lucrecia: ...But what?
Vincent: ...
Lucrecia: If you have something to say...say it.
Vincent: Are you...are you sure...this is what you really want?
Lucrecia: Am I sure...? Am I sure?! If this only concerns me, then yes, I am sure!
Vincent: Oh...I...I just...
Narrator Vincent:All I did was watch... I didn’t even try to stop her...and then...

Emphasis on words that were emphasized in speech.

Here's the Japanese version for comparison, but I don't know where this translation comes from or how accurate it is:

Vincent: Is this true?
Hojo: About what?
Vincent: I’ve heard about this project from Lucrecia... [He changed his way of addressing her in the middle of the sentence.] I heard it from Professor Lucrecia...
Lucrecia: It’s true. So what do you want to do about it?
Vincent: Using the child inside your stomach for this experiment...
Hojo: HA! Do you know what you are talking about? She and I are both scientists. Moreover, this is OUR problem. Do you think it is the time for an outsider like you to speak?
Vincent: No...
Lucrecia: What?
Vincent: ...
Lucrecia: If you have something to say...say it right now.
Vincent: Therefore... Are you...are you really going to...
Lucrecia: What do you want to say? [Note: The original is “Nande ‘kimiha’ nanoyo!” I guess she wants to say, why do you have to be so polite and considerate towards me?] Are you talking about me? If it’s my problem, then it has nothing to do with you!
Vincent: Ah...right...even to me...
Narrator Vincent: I just wanted to see it... I wasn’t able to stop her...and then...

So, just considering the English dialogue, for now, we have Vincent approaching Hojo and asking him if something is true. Hojo asks Vincent to clarify exactly which issue Vincent is seeking verity about (implying there could be more than one issue). Lucrecia comes in and challenges Vincent a bit on his personal feelings about her using the baby for an experiment.

Now maybe it's just me, but I see this as being a very masochistic scene for Lucrecia where she's kind of like, she put all the pieces in place to fuck up her love life, like dominoes, and she's looking at Vincent standing in front of those dominoes, and she just needs him to knock them over, but of course he's being timid and polite because he's Vincent. And she's like, "Come on, do it. Push them over. Ask the questions that will hurt you enough to kill everything so that you and I can't possibly even be an option." And then she's even more angry because he's being so fucking nice and polite about it.

So she goads him a bit, pushing him to push the dominoes. "Why are you so surprised?" Or I guess in the Japanese version, she asks, "What do you want to do about it?" which seems even more direct and confrontational.

Vincent stammers and awkwardly cites his uneasiness as the morality of her actions, in English. In the Japanese translation, I find it interesting that he apparently refers to the baby as "the child inside your stomach" instead of "your own child." Maybe it's a poor translation thing, but "the child inside your stomach" sounds less "this baby issue is obviously a you thing and not a me thing" and is more ambiguous about who the baby might belong to.

That's when Hojo interrupts with the opportunity to mock Vincent. "HA! I don't know what you're implying, but both of us are scientists." He stresses both "implying" and "us." "Implying," as in, "There's something else you're trying to get at here," and "us," as in, "Me and Lucrecia and not you." Does that not hint that Hojo might be implying that Vincent might be implying that the role Hojo plays in deciding what happens to the baby could actually be Vincent's role instead? It sounds to me like Hojo is saying, "Lollll butt out, this is MY kid, not yours." And suggesting that Vincent is implying differently, well, implies that Vincent might have thought differently.

"You are the last person to have any word in this. Now, leave us at once, boy!" I think him calling Vincent "boy" is odd and I'm not really sure what they were going for. I also realize there doesn't seem to be the same weirdness in the Japanese version, unless Hojo speaks to Vincent in some Japanese verb tense that implies an elder speaking to a child or something. It could just be about the scientist/Turk distinction. Or it could be a way of calling Vincent's masculinity into question because he wasn't the one who knocked up Lucrecia, punctuating his whole point with that.

In the Japanese translation I have, Hojo instead says, "Moreover, this is OUR problem. Do you think it is the time for an outsider like you to speak?" which I think is even more explicit in calling to Vincent's attention his lack of paternity.

Which, of course, isn't about Vincent's necessary lack of paternity, but that Hojo seems to think Vincent might have had a question about it.

Vincent says, "But..." and trails off. Lucrecia sounds like she's gritting her teeth when she asks, "But what?" And then when he doesn't say anything, "If you have something to say...say it." Pushing, pushing, pushing his goddamned timid hand toward the dominoes.

"Are you..."

She waits.

"Are you sure..."

She's still waiting.

"...that this is what you really want?"

Lucrecia explodes into anger. Why? She urged him to ask what he wanted to ask, and she was holding something back before, while she waited for it. Is his eventual question not the one she wanted? Was she expecting a different question?

In Japanese, he seems to just stammer some more and maybe she's getting frustrated with him for that. But even then, it's like, "What are you trying to say? What are you trying to ask me? Just ask it."

And then her responses in English and Japanese are totally different. In English, she says, "Yes, I am sure," presumably meaning, "Yes, I am sure that this is what I want to do with my baby." In Japanese, she says, "This is my problem and by the way you're not involved in it," which seems to speak more directly to an implicit paternity debate. But even the English "Yes I am sure," which notably does not repeat the "sure about wanting to do this" part, might be intended to imply a different sort of, "Yes, I'm sure." As in, "Yes, I confirm what Hojo just said to you; I'm sure Hojo's the baby daddy and not you." As in language that is often used in issues of paternity along the lines of "sure," "certainty," etc.

And then Vincent kind of drops it and just mopes. In English he emits a feeble "I just," but in Japanese he seems to repeat the part that directly relates to him.

Then there's the weirdness about "just wanting to see it," but I'll chalk that up to poor translation meaning wanting to see her wellbeing or whatever. :monster:

————————————————————

Anyway, that's all a *possible* interpretation. I'm not saying they necessarily meant all these things to mean all those things, because that would be kind of conspiratorial, but I do think it's possible we were meant to wonder if they might have actually been hinting at a different issue than the one being outwardly discussed.

And for what it's worth, I only had to add one line at the end of it giving the whole thing context in order to actually change it into an indisputable paternity debate in my fanfiction. :monster:

However, I think this scene effectively quashed Vincent's belief that Sephiroth might have been his son, which is why by the time of FF7 he does not seem to be under that impression.
 
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Ravynne Nevyrmore

that one Lucrecia fangirl
AKA
Ravynne
Also, yes, I would like to think that Vincent might have raised Sephiroth as his son if he could have gotten his act together a lot sooner than he did. Unfortunately Vincent had his own issues to deal with, and didn't even deal with those. So.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
I have a feeling that since he didn't know Sephiroth personally I think he would see him as an extension of Hojo. In a way I think it could have made him felt easier about taking him down because Sephiroth is the child of his hated foe. Sephiroth is the product of everything that has gone wrong in his life.
 

Ravynne Nevyrmore

that one Lucrecia fangirl
AKA
Ravynne
Well, not to keep bringing up the Harry Potter comparison, but
it's the same as with Snape, Lily, James, and Harry. Snape "hated" Harry because he was James's son, but also went out of his way to be protective of Harry because he was Lily's son
. I would like to think that, as far as having one's heart in a noble place goes, Vincent is a better man than
Snape
and would be willing to overlook Sephiroth's Hojoness because of his Lucrecianess. After all, Vincent is the guy who said, "If she is happy, then I don't mind," while the rest of us were going, "What the fuck dude you should definitely mind a little." Because of that proclivity that Vincent has to put Lucrecia before himself (even if/when he arguably shouldn't), I think that if the opportunity had ever arisen for Vincent to take part in Sephiroth's upbringing, he would have been able to love him as Lucrecia's son instead of hate him as Hojo's.

But because he didn't raise him and form any sort of bond with Sephiroth personally, I don't think he views him as a son in FF7 or has any sort of love for him. It's probably hard for him to look at the guy, because he resembles Lucrecia a bit. I really wish the OGC had gone into this a bit more, but tbh I think the reason why it didn't is because Vincent is an optional character who, for the most part, only had opportunities to voice an opinion about anything in situations where any third party member was expected to say something. And those things were usually not about Vincent. He didn't get a whole lot of scenes to talk about himself, really.

DoC could have brought it up, but then it was kind of nice having just one part of the compilation not about Sephiroth, and I think they made a point of keeping it that way.
 
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jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Well, not to keep bringing up the Harry Potter comparison, but
it's the same as with Snape, Lily, James, and Harry. Snape "hated" Harry because he was James's son, but also went out of his way to be protective of Harry because he was Lily's son
. I would like to think that, as far as having one's heart in a noble place goes, Vincent is a better man than
Snape
and would be willing to overlook Sephiroth's Hojoness because of his Lucrecianess. After all, Vincent is the guy who said, "If she is happy, then I don't mind," while the rest of us were going, "What the fuck dude you should definitely mind a little." Because of that proclivity that Vincent has to put Lucrecia before himself (even if/when he arguably shouldn't), I think that if the opportunity had ever arisen for Vincent to take part in Sephiroth's upbringing, he would have been able to love him as Lucrecia's son instead of hate him as Hojo's.

But because he didn't raise him and form any sort of bond with Sephiroth personally, I don't think he views him as a son in FF7 or has any sort of love for him. It's probably hard for him to look at the guy, because he resembles Lucrecia a bit. I really wish the OGC had gone into this a bit more, but tbh I think the reason why it didn't is because Vincent is an optional character who, for the most part, only had opportunities to voice an opinion about anything in situations where any third party member was expected to say something. And those things were usually not about Vincent. He didn't get a whole lot of scenes to talk about himself, really.

DoC could have brought it up, but then it was kind of nice having just one part of the compilation not about Sephiroth, and I think they made a point of keeping it that way.

Vincent and Cloud were the closest people to know Sephiroth but even then it wasn't on a personal level. Cloud's interactions with Sephiroth were second hand. Vincent never got a chance to bond with him because he got shot before it could happen. It would have been an interesting to make him think about Sephiroth just so that he can stop angsting over Lucrecia. Then again if he had any thoughts on Sephiroth they would be an extension of Lucrecia. It would be interesting if a former research assistant appeared and tried to contact the gang to give them information about Sephiroth's upbringing. I think the person who would be most interested in hearing this would be Vincent out of some curiosity for how his beloved's child was raised. I think one of the most neglected aspects is what was Sephiroth's childhood like because even the secondhand resources don't say a word about it.
 

Ravynne Nevyrmore

that one Lucrecia fangirl
AKA
Ravynne
It would be interesting if a former research assistant appeared and tried to contact the gang to give them information about Sephiroth's upbringing.

Why would anyone do that? That would seem to come out of left field.


I think the person who would be most interested in hearing this would be Vincent out of some curiosity for how his beloved's child was raised.

I don't know if I agree with that. I think the info would be of more tactical interest to the group than of personal interest to Vincent. I'm trying to imagine if someone I had an unrequited love for had a kid with someone else and I don't think I'd give a flying fuck about hearing how the kid was raised. I'd probably prefer not to hear about it at all.

And I think Cloud would have been way more interested in knowing how Sephiroth grew up than Vincent would be, anyway. Cloud just had more interest in Sephiroth than Vincent did.


I think one of the most neglected aspects is what was Sephiroth's childhood like because even the secondhand resources don't say a word about it.

This I agree with.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Why would anyone do that? That would seem to come out of left field.




I don't know if I agree with that. I think the info would be of more tactical interest to the group than of personal interest to Vincent. I'm trying to imagine if someone I had an unrequited love for had a kid with someone else and I don't think I'd give a flying fuck about hearing how the kid was raised. I'd probably prefer not to hear about it at all.

And I think Cloud would have been way more interested in knowing how Sephiroth grew up than Vincent would be, anyway. Cloud just had more interest in Sephiroth than Vincent did.




This I agree with.

I think this character would have a sense of lingering guilt like Vincent about standing by and doing nothing while something wrong was taking place. Unlike Vincent s/he never brought up any complaints because of how Hojo took care of those who talked up. This assistant I believe would have heard about the group's exploits and was interested in contacting them so s/he could give more information about Sephiroth's early years.
 
"jazzflower92 wrote:
It would be interesting if a former research assistant appeared and tried to contact the gang to give them information about Sephiroth's upbringing.
Ravynne wrote:
Why would anyone do that? That would seem to come out of left field.

Yes, but it's the sort of thing one could easily see happening in this game.

Cloud: [to NPC] Have you seen a man in a black cape?

NPC: Oh, you're looking for Sephiroth? I remember when he was just a little boy...
- Tell me your story
- Go away and don't bore me

NCP: In those days, I was a junior scientist with Shinra. I felt so sorry for the poor little boy. So many needles every day. I wondered where his mother was....

If Vincent knew that Sephiroth was the victim of a genetic engineering experiment, and also knew and loved his mother, then he would have some feelings of concern for him, I think.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
Yes, but it's the sort of thing one could easily see happening in this game.

Cloud: [to NPC] Have you seen a man in a black cape?

NPC: Oh, you're looking for Sephiroth? I remember when he was just a little boy...
- Tell me your story
- Go away and don't bore me

NCP: In those days, I was a junior scientist with Shinra. I felt so sorry for the poor little boy. So many needles every day. I wondered where his mother was....

If Vincent knew that Sephiroth was the victim of a genetic engineering experiment, and also knew and loved his mother, then he would have some feelings of concern for him, I think.

Yeah, that actually should have been included in the game. Just to give more depth into Sephiroth's childhood. I kind of wonder why nothing was put. The only information mentioned is in some older outside material that say that when Sephiroth was young he was experimented on to see the reactions of a person with jenova cells with Mako.
 
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Ravynne Nevyrmore

that one Lucrecia fangirl
AKA
Ravynne
I think this character would have a sense of lingering guilt like Vincent about standing by and doing nothing while something wrong was taking place. Unlike Vincent s/he never brought up any complaints because of how Hojo took care of those who talked up. This assistant I believe would have heard about the group's exploits and was interested in contacting them so s/he could give more information about Sephiroth's early years.

Now you're just getting into fanfiction. :P


Yes, but it's the sort of thing one could easily see happening in this game.

Cloud: [to NPC] Have you seen a man in a black cape?

NPC: Oh, you're looking for Sephiroth? I remember when he was just a little boy...
- Tell me your story
- Go away and don't bore me

NCP: In those days, I was a junior scientist with Shinra. I felt so sorry for the poor little boy. So many needles every day. I wondered where his mother was....

Yeah, but that scenario's more realistic than someone approaching the team all like, "OH HAY I HAVE SOME INFO ON SEPHIROTH YOU NEED TO KNOW!" :monster: That's running into a person, not being approached. I prefer this.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
What does "illusionary crime against Sephiroth" mean, and what is it? I've always wondered.

It means "I was translated improperly." :awesome:

Cloud actually says, "I can't believe you're doing this ... to atone to Sephiroth ... " (「あんたがこんな事をしているのは……、セフィロスへの罪滅ぼし……」). That's why Hojo says that Cloud is misunderstanding, and that he's actually doing this to satisfy his curiosities.
 

jazzflower92

Pro Adventurer
AKA
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
It means "I was translated improperly." :awesome:

Cloud actually says, "I can't believe you're doing this ... to atone to Sephiroth ... " (「あんたがこんな事をしているのは……、セフィロスへの罪滅ぼし……」). That's why Hojo says that Cloud is misunderstanding, and that he's actually doing this to satisfy his curiosities.

If CPS was in that world Hojo would have been arrested a long time ago. Then again if CPS is in that world it is probably owned by Shinra.
 

Ravynne Nevyrmore

that one Lucrecia fangirl
AKA
Ravynne
ShinRa's Child Protective Services Department probably collects children from abusive and negligent households in order to use them for genetic experimentation.

This is actually how they stock SOLDIER.
 
There's a whole series of missions in Crisis Core in which Zack has to recover children who have escaped from a Shinra Orphanage.

It's mission 7-5-x, part of the "Seeking Priceless Items" set of missions.
 

Ravynne Nevyrmore

that one Lucrecia fangirl
AKA
Ravynne
There's a whole series of missions in Crisis Core in which Zack has to recover children who have escaped from a Shinra Orphanage.

It's mission 7-5-x, part of the "Seeking Priceless Items" set of missions.

That's awesome, I'll have to look into it.

Though, to be fair, there are probably a lot of natural orphans in a world with so many monsters running around. Not to mention the Wutai War.
 
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