Sephiroth *heavy spoilers*

[GoldSaucerPoints]

Hello everyone, new here and sorry if this post is not allowed or has been discussed before.


Beyond excited for the remake. FF7 was my FF game I played when I was eight years old and still my favourite FF.

The only direction thus far I can't wrap my head around is Sephiroth's presence so early on.

We hear snippets of him in Midgar, then have a flashback of him in Kalm and then see Jenova as him in the cargo ship.

I don't understand why he is being shown so early. I feel it's kind of disappointing for first time players, they aren't going to get this mysterious all powerful (and when I first played it genuinely thought there was no way I was going to beat him.)

Now he seems to be popping up everywhere and I'm going to be pissed as hell if "Those chosen by the planets." Is not played and if Sephiroth has that damn wing. He should not have it until the end boss fight, I don't know why but the wing thing irritates me.

Looking forward to the game but in my opinion it should have just been focused on Shin-ra until the end.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Kitase's own words from an interview published yesterday.

"In the original players had no prior knowledge of that world or many of its characters, so I really wanted to build Sephiroth up as this really major threat," Kitase - who directed the original 1997 release - explains. "You don't see him, you see the after of what he's done. You hear rumours about him to build up the fear of this massive evil presence without actually seeing it."

Years later, the characters have become a big part of popular culture, with the release of films based on the world such as Advent Children. Now, as Kitase points out, more players are aware of who these characters are, even if they haven't played the original release, which is why Square Enix didn't feel the need to hold him back and hide so much... “Looking at the the remake overall, it's clear that Sephiroth is going to be this massive presence overarching throughout the whole of the story, and this rival of Cloud’s throughout the whole story. So I really felt I want to include that in this first game in the project, to really have that feeling of him as a really clear presence right from the start.”

And I want to illustrate a point that I feel some fans don't quite perceive or notice, given their own frame of reference.

OG FFVII was released in 1997, and became a pillar of the FF franchise. It was the entry point for an entire generation of fans, not just to Final Fantasy, but JRPGs in general. It's incredible, moving and powerful story leads to this game being the "moment", benchmark or "first" for the genre in the hearts and minds of many fans.

However, that moment isn't exclusive or a benchmark to everyone who's a fan of FFVII or JRPGs now. It's not even the entry point for fans of Final Fantasy, or fans of FFVII. That moment has passed. Through continued relevancy and updated depictions, FFVII hasn't existed in only one era, genre, or depiction like past Final Fantasies. It's characters have adapted, grown, and changed through time. And because of this, it's overall presence beyond the OG have created new entry points, new moments, and new fans that actually aren't centered or framed around the OG at all.

It cannot be overstated how many new fans came into FF, FFVII, or JRPGs in general through Kingdom Hearts. When first released, the Final Fantasy characters served as a hook to pull in FF fans to the KH franchise but now, the reverse has happened. Fans of Disney, and Kingdom Hearts are being drawn to the FF franchise, and curiously looking to see where these FF characters come from. The memorable framing of that introduction is not the same as those who first played FFVII cold and experienced the story "raw" back in 1997 or around that time. Not only that, but the pop culture and aesthetic of FF is entirely different on account of graphics, tropes and the now establishment of the RPG genre. FFVII isn't most video game player's first FF anymore. For some it was X, for others XII, and more recently XIII and XV. The entire framing and impact of FF storytelling is by and large different than that of 1997.

Then there's the Compilation of FFVII. Advent Children was the sequel movie that fans of FFVII watched and consumed to see what happened after the OG, and witness the characters brought to life in a means far beyond anything imagined in 1997. Then the Compilation games served as sequels that fleshed out the lore of the story in the OG, and expand upon its unique universe. Yet, after a time the reverse began to happen there too. New fans began to actually enter the FFVII story and universe through the titles and sequels that came after it. More and more fans ended up interested and fans of FFVII not through it's own game, but through Advent Children and Crisis Core. These backdoor entry points to FFVII become the "moment" and memorable depiction that is affixed in the consciousness of some new fans. This is unusual for some to even conceive, but it's simply a matter of subjective taste, generational divide and the evolving nature of media presentation.

Sephiroth is a villain who has evolved through technology, tastes and pop culture. And what has made him stand out so effectively is his hybridization of villain-types. In the OG, he was an ominous Big-Bad/Supervillain but a unique depiction of the type within the JRPG and Final Fantasy series. A scientifically created superhero, imbued with superpowers that originated from an unknown alien monster that terrorized the planet 2000 years prior. At first he is an unknown force in the story, but upon his memorable introduction, we discover that he is in truth, the real Big-Bad villain of the story. Through flashback recollection, we discover that upon the discovery of his origin, he descends to madness and evil. Yet despite his supposed death, he returns even stronger, now ready to enact a scheme to essentially become a god. Alongside this, however, is the discovery that Sephiroth harbored a deep hatred for Cloud who thwarted his plans in the past. This defeat creates a hatred that motivates Sephiroth to cruelly manipulate Cloud and lie to him about his origins.

This hatred for Cloud while only revealed later on in the story, became one of the most iconic and memorable aspects of his character from FFVII on. While his mystery and big-bad supervillainy was the introduction for the first generation of fans, his bitter rivalry and hatred as a Nemesis type villain for Cloud would be the introduction and memorable aspect for a portion of new fans as well. This existence and evolution of his character is just as real, valid and essential because Sephiroth simply does not exist in a vacuum. From the single black angel wing over his right shoulder (which originated in Kingdom Hearts), to his iconic final boss music becoming his most associated track, this is Sephiroth. While the FFVII Remake will obviously remain true and tethered to the original story, Kitase honestly states that Sephiroth is adapting to the facts of the present in terms of his status as a pop culture villain icon. He's not a mystery, and he's a staple to the story. Furthermore, having him be a slow-burn type villain would simply not work in this Remake saga that will take an unknown amount of games to fully tell. The main story needs its main villain, and just as the story was adapted for multiple installments, so to must it's main big-bad.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

FFVII can't be FFVII without Sephrioth. It can be FFVII without Shin-Ra activly being on the scene. Advent Children proves as much. At least when it comes to character's motivations, "stopping Sephrioth from destorying the world" has always been the main force of the narrative. Part way through FFVII, the Shin-Ra plot really gets dropped because not even Shin-Ra can stop Sephrioth.

The vast majority of returning players will be looking for him in the Remake. Because watching Sephrioth play headgames with Cloud is... really fun to watch to be honest. Especially since we know Cloud wins in the end. You've got one character manipulating the other to helping them, only for the manipulated character to fight past the manipulation and beat them in the end.

Not setting that dynamic up right from the get-go would be a huge mistake and deprive the game of it's long term plot. And... this game desperately needs to establish it has a long-term plot. It has to convince the players to stick around for multiple games that all tell a part of the story, but not the whole thing. Leaving out the main antagonist from the first game run counter to that.

 

[Ite]

I don’t like Sephiroth in the Midgar section. All of the arguments about it are taking it from a meta perspective (you can’t deprive FF7 of its villain for a whole “part”) a marketing perspective (Sephiroth sells) or a novelty perspective (we don’t want the same story we got before). None of the pro-Sephiroth arguments seem to be about what’s best for the story, certainly not what’s best for the story long-term.

Y’all gotta think of the bigger picture here! Nothin worth fightin for was ever won without sacrifice!

20 years from now, when all the parts are out, and the OG is (even more) unplayably dated, the Remake, from Reactor 1 to Meteorfall, will be the story.

So, what changes serve that story? I don’t like the idea of Sephiroth mucking about during the Midgar section. It’s not a choice I would even smile at, were I in the writer’s room. But it is the choice they are going with. If it serves the story, fine. But I don’t think that choice was made to serve the story, and for that reason I’m extremely distrustful of it.

 

[oty]

I think it was both. You obviously has the Market aspect, since Sephiroth is a huge deal, but Kitase himself said about these allusions happening early on. Its definitely something the team picked up as a story element, and will have be a big deal in this and subsequent Parts

 

[Theozilla]

Also one really can’t separate the meta-aspect of a story from its narrative. They are interlocked/interdependent elements of a story, they don’t exist independent of each other.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

There's also the simple fact that the only explanations we can get right now are meta explanations. None of us know how the story will be changed... yet... And we're talking not just the changes in Midgar, but the changes over the entire game here. We aren't going to be able to tell if Sephrioth being in Midgar makes for a better narrative then what happened in the OG until the last game. Which is years away.

However, I think it does say something that those of us familear with the story of FFVII can see how Sephrioth being revealed earlier could work. Sephrioth showing up early changes the beginning part of the story sure, but it won't change the story so much that it automatically makes the narrative not work.

One of the bigger problems with the story in the OG was how... confusing some of the details were about Sephiroth and his origins and his relationship with Cloud. Establishing those earlier and more precisely does make the OG narrative clearer. So it's easy to see this change making the story better. And none of that goes into metta reasons for this change either; it's a story-telling reason for it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I don’t like Sephiroth in the Midgar section. All of the arguments about it are taking it from a meta perspective (you can’t deprive FF7 of its villain for a whole “part”) a marketing perspective (Sephiroth sells) or a novelty perspective (we don’t want the same story we got before). None of the pro-Sephiroth arguments seem to be about what’s best for the story, certainly not what’s best for the story long-term.

Y’all gotta think of the bigger picture here! Nothin worth fightin for was ever won without sacrifice!

20 years from now, when all the parts are out, and the OG is (even more) unplayably dated, the Remake, from Reactor 1 to Meteorfall, will be the story.

So, what changes serve that story? I don’t like the idea of Sephiroth mucking about during the Midgar section. It’s not a choice I would even smile at, were I in the writer’s room. But it is the choice they are going with. If it serves the story, fine. But I don’t think that choice was made to serve the story, and for that reason I’m extremely distrustful of it.

I honestly think the story will be better served short-term and long-term. There are three reasons for this.

The first reason, is the story will firmly establish and delineate who's in control and the main villain of FFVII. The ambiguity and slow-burn of Sephiroth in the OG was an effective, well-done and unique way of introducing one of the most popular FF villains in the franchise. However, to this day, there are fans who do not quite understand the relationship between Sephiroth and Jenova. There are still some who think Jenova was in control, Sephiroth was somehow a puppet of Jenova's will, and every permutation that exists under the sun. This makes the plot of VII unnecessarily convoluted. A clearer establishment of Sephiroth's role as the main villain, and anchoring his Nemesis villain-type along side his Big-Bad villain-type, helps to clarify the story.

The second reason, is that Sephiroth's inclusion allows for a deeper, more enriched and memorable depiction of Cloud's mental instability within the framework of the game. Because this Remake is a multi-game release, a slow-burn is simply not possible. These games have to be capable of being enjoyed independently while simultaneously telling the overall story of FFVII. This means, that they have to satisfy the requirements and desires of the majority of players, while also staying true to the OG's story. The best way to do this, is to lean in heavily into Cloud's mental instability, depict it differently, more intensely, and utilize Sephiroth's connection to Cloud via Jenova cells. Sephiroth is Cloud's nemesis, and this Remake depiction opens up numerous unique and memorable opportunities to flesh out Cloud and Sephiroth, while being new yet in-line with the theme and plot of the OG.

The third reason, is that it allows Sephiroth to be a more present force in the narrative and showcase his personality and characterization. This is of course, antithetical to his OG depiction, and seen as sacrilege to some fans. However, I'd argue that this would actually improve on a shortfall in the OG's depiction of Sephiroth. FFVII's slow-burn and late presentation of Sephiroth's presence was perfect for the OG and players going in blind to it's story entirely, yet it came at the expense of giving Sephiroth a strong characterization within his own game. Sephiroth's personality was present in the OG, yet it was this brief depiction in VII that served as the foundation for his subsequent appearances afterwards. Sephiroth has more lines of dialgoue as a character, outside of his main game. It would be very bizarre, unsatisfying, and botched storytelling to withhold Sephiroth for years and years in the Remake of FFVII; it would weaken the multi-game installment story by robbing the narrative of it's primary villain, while botching the best opportunity to utilize current gen technology, hardware and graphics to give Sephiroth in his originating game, a greater personality.

Games and stories this generation thrive on villains who memorialize themselves strongly, personally and showcase emotion. This is why subsequent villains of contemporary FFs have had memorable, strong personalities that illustrate who they are and why you should care about them. There's a reason why Emet-Selch of FFXIV became the highest rated FF villain in a recent poll by NHK, taking the 6th place of most popular FF character. Sephiroth is now the second most popular FF villain, taking 11th place. And Kefka is third at 43rd place. Sephiroth and FFVII does not benefit from Sephiroth being hidden away from the player. By showcasing FFVII's villain and making him well-written, charismatic, and properly framed within the Remake's story, it can strengthen VII's plot, Cloud's mental struggle and of course Sephiroth's own characterization.

So there you go

 

[Ite]

Also one They are interlocked/interdependent elements of a story, they don’t exist independent of each other.

inb4 death of the author tidal wave

You’re certainly right in many respects, especially when it comes to the crowd that is going to be there on release. And even relating to this project, it’s coming with the same baggage any remake has, be it King Kong or the like.

But as for your assertion that “one can’t really can’t separate the meta-aspect of a story from its narrative” I would have to hard disagree. If the art is good, I get so drawn in that time and space outside of what the art is showing me can very easily cease to exist. Like, when I watch Jurassic Park, even though I’ve seen it a jillion times, seen the making-of, and I’ve worked in film, I still believe that’s a real T-Rex when I’m watching it. (A paleontologist mightn’t but I digress).

Edit: didn’t see those other posts! All y’all make excellent points. I’m still a scared rabbit about this, but we’ll have to wait and see.

My big hope with this project is that it’s the kind of thing we SHOULD send people in blind for, long after the last DLC is out. I want people to go in blind and have the best possible version of FF7 that they can have. If all the parts are out, you’re *not* missing out on Sephiroth.

 

[Theozilla]

But as for your assertion that “one can’t really can’t separate the meta-aspect of a story from its narrative” I would have to hard disagree. If the art is good, I get so drawn in that time and space outside of what the art is showing me can very easily cease to exist. Like, when I watch Jurassic Park, even though I’ve seen it a jillion times, seen the making-of, and I’ve worked in film, I still believe that’s a real T-Rex when I’m watching it. (A paleontologist mightn’t but I digress).

Even if you’re completely drawn to the narrative of a film though, you yourself still doesn’t cease to exist. You’re still an individual shaped both consciously and subconsciously by culture and media around you. That’s what I mean by meta elements of story. The very fact that individuals vary in their subjective tastes is inextricably linked to how we’ve been molded by media, even if we haven’t ever seen it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I get the point you're making there, @Theozilla -- just having seen pre-release trailers and read pre-release interviews becomes part of the meta digestion of the product.

I think @Mr. Ite is ultimately more concerned with how the work will stand on its own, decades from now, removed as much as possible from such considerations.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Given the elevation of the writing showcased thus far, I'd say we're in for a much higher quality product than say, Dirge of Cerberus circa 2006.

The entire framework of the writing, dialogue, and of course, the gameplay, is of a much higher quality and level of development than we've seen in anything from FF. Nevermind Compilation of FFVII spin offs, this is a mainline Final Fantasy title getting the type of effort, development and resources it deserves. I really don't see them screwing this up.

It's all full power from here, from Square-Enix and the development team. And most importantly, it's a project of passion.

 

[jazzflower92]

Yeah, I think Sephiroth in this version should be able to be given the ability to have his pre-evil character fleshed out. I also hope we do see more of his childhood and maybe even years in the military.

 

[Dee]

FFVII can't be FFVII without Sephrioth. It can be FFVII without Shin-Ra activly being on the scene. Advent Children proves as much. At least when it comes to character's motivations, "stopping Sephrioth from destorying the world" has always been the main force of the narrative. Part way through FFVII, the Shin-Ra plot really gets dropped because not even Shin-Ra can stop Sephrioth.

Fact. There just comes a point where ShinRa realizes they're fucked and won't be able to stop the main antagonist who was really that from even before the release of FFVII.

The vast majority of returning players will be looking for him in the Remake. Because watching Sephrioth play headgames with Cloud is... really fun to watch to be honest. Especially since we know Cloud wins in the end. You've got one character manipulating the other to helping them, only for the manipulated character to fight past the manipulation and beat them in the end.

This bolded part is one of the things I enjoyed the most. The dynamics between them, seeing how much it affects Cloud who's already suffering from mental and emotional trauma given everything that's happened to him, his family, his townsfolk, his friends (Zack, etc). He's struggling with it all because of Sephiroth. And Sephiroth, funnily enough, is getting cock-blocked by this puny failed-SOLDIER when all he wants to do is take over the planet.

Not setting that dynamic up right from the get-go would be a huge mistake and deprive the game of it's long term plot. And... this game desperately needs to establish it has a long-term plot. It has to convince the players to stick around for multiple games that all tell a part of the story, but not the whole thing. Leaving out the main antagonist from the first game run counter to that.

I agree with this, too. If you see Cloud just kind of being a dick to everyone and acting the way he does so nonchalantly, without a care in the world but money, it kind of doesn't make sense. They could have introduced things a little later on, but the story is so complex with so many characters being affected by either this huge corporation or one silver-haired SOLDIER would really benefit from at least hinting to the reason why things are they way they are, why certain characters act the way they do. I'm glad we get to see Sephiroth more because he's very interesting. And I think the original needed to flesh out Sephiroth's reasoning behind why he went apeshit on everyone.