SPOILERS Sephiroth's Redemption Thread

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Someone over on tumblr posted an interpretation of Sephiroth's actions in the OG/AC which I don't really understand. I'd like to know what you guys think about it. I'll try to be succinct.

"When Meteor was summoned, [Sephiroth] had to surrender some of his memories to the Lifestream to help stop it. When he did that, he forgot a lot of his past before he knew of "what he was." Including what he looked like. And so he couldn't manifest himself as a Force Ghost to torment Cloud like you see him do in the Remake. So, he searched the Lifestream--memories of the dead and such--for remnants of himself. He found this leftover information about himself and used the Lifestream to create physical manifestations of his will. The three silver-haired boys in AC are not clones of him but ideas given form, given flesh."

I was surprised by the suggestion that Sephiroth was trying to stop Meteor, since he summoned it, and, I assumed, did so because he wanted to bathe in the flood of Lifestream that would rush to staunch the wound it made, thus transforming himself into a god. However, OP's point was that since he was already in the Lifestream when it rose to repel Meteor, he would have been destroyed, along with the Lifestream, if Meteor had succeeded, and so he needed to sacrifice part of himself to enable the Lifestream to drive back the very Meteor he had summoned while in the Lifestream.

This doesn't make sense to me, but it might to some of you who know more about this aspect of the game than I do.

 

[Shademp]

That sounds like a misreading of what is said in OtWtaS: Lifestream Black and White.

Lifestream Black 1

The man could sense the Lifestream trying to erode his spirit– the memories of his former experiences, thoughts and emotions. If he allowed himself be taken into the current, the being he once was would soon disseminate and disappear amongst the spirit energy cycling around the planet. The man thought this unacceptable. The planet was to be his to rule, and to become a part of that system would be nothing short of defeat.

The man sensed a large flux in the Lifestream. A sign of another, different defeat. When the Lifestream erupted onto the surface of the planet, the man thought that Cloud was no doubt certain of his victory. Cloud was the one who had twice sent the man into the Lifestream. The man knew that if one could hold onto some core of their spirit, then one could remain a separate entity, independent from the planet’s system. Cloud. The man decided to make Cloud that core. And he wanted to let Cloud know of that. I’m still thinking of you. And I’ll show you the proof of that as well.

Lifestream Black 2

When the Lifestream erupted onto the surface of the planet, the man had already surrendered his inconsequential memories to the planet. Memories from when he was a boy, of his few friends, of the battles when he was still unaware, of his life in bygone days– all these became a part of the inundation, encased around Meteor, and finally receded. At the same time, the core of his spirit, and those memories deeply related to it, moved from torrent to torrent, and traveled around the land, from city to city.

Sephiroth's old memories became part of the lifestream and joined the flux that gathered around Meteor. But there is no indication that Sephiroth's will actively "helped" in stopping Meteor. Rather, it was just memories being forcefully carried by, and becoming part of, the larger lifestream current.

My reading is that the defeated Sephiroth was forced to sacrifice parts of himself, like a lizard sacrificing its tail to survive, in order to avoid having his core will swallowed up. Though that's just my interpretation of why Sephiroth's "inconsequential memories" were surrendered in the first place.

Lifestream White 1

The woman had sensed a different presence within the Lifestream cycling around the planet. It was the vehemence of a strong will, one that would never join with the planet. She knew this consciousness. It was the man who had taken her life.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

So he didn't have to sacrifice his memories in order to enable the Lifestream to stop Meteor, he sacrificed memories he deemed unneccessary in order to protect the core memories of his identity?

I'm just confused by the suggestions in the OP that he would summon Meteor, yet somehow be unaware that the Lifestream would burst forth to protect the Planet, carrying him with it since he's in the Lifestream. Having the Lifestream burst forth to concentrate in one place seems to be his goal. In fact, wasn't he holding the Lifestream back, or Holy back, which is why Cloud needed to "kill" him before the Lifestream could burst forth? Had Cloud not "killed him" Meteor would have crashed into the Planet just as Sephiroth wished. Yes?

 

[ForceStealer]

So he didn't have to sacrifice his memories in order to enable the Lifestream to stop Meteor, he sacrificed memories he deemed unneccessary in order to protect the core memories of his identity?

Yes. I have no idea why that tumblr user would think Sephiroth was trying to stop Meteor.

I'm just confused by the suggestions in the OP that he would summon Meteor, yet somehow be unaware that the Lifestream would burst forth to protect the Planet, carrying him with it since he's in the Lifestream. Having the Lifestream burst forth to concentrate in one place seems to be his goal. In fact, wasn't he holding the Lifestream back, or Holy back, which is why Cloud needed to "kill" him before the Lifestream could burst forth? Had Cloud not "killed him" Meteor would have crashed into the Planet just as Sephiroth wished. Yes?

Sephiroth was holding back Holy, not the Lifestream.

I mean he was only "in" the Lifestream for a few moments before it burst out to stop it. You had only just killed him. As for why he didn't know the Planet would do that in advance from his previous time in the stream, I think that's because the Planet would not have done that were it not for Aerith's influence.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I think tumblruser believes Sephiroth was in the LS the whole time since he didn't have a body.

But did he have a body?

I guess I just don't see a big difference between the LS bursting out of the ground to repel Meteor and the LS flowing through the ground to heal the wound caused by the arrival of Jenova. Meteor is an aerial threat; the Northern Crater is a wound in the ground. In both cases, the Planet and the Cetra worked together to make it happen. Given that Sephiroth knew the Cetra helped the Planet to try to heal the wound caused by Jenova, it's a bit short-sighted of him to have put Aerith in the Lifestream.

 

[Odysseus]

I think tumblruser believes Sephiroth was in the LS the whole time since he didn't have a body.

But did he have a body?

Yes

He was a rock.

 

[ForceStealer]

I think tumblruser believes Sephiroth was in the LS the whole time since he didn't have a body.

But did he have a body?

Yes...as Ody pointed out above, we see it.

I guess I just don't see a big difference between the LS bursting out of the ground to repel Meteor and the LS flowing through the ground to heal the wound caused by the arrival of Jenova. Meteor is an aerial threat; the Northern Crater is a wound in the ground. In both cases, the Planet and the Cetra worked together to make it happen. Given that Sephiroth knew the Cetra helped the Planet to try to heal the wound caused by Jenova, it's a bit short-sighted of him to have put Aerith in the Lifestream.

I mean Ifalna and countless other Cetra were already diffused in the Lifestream, if he wasn't concerned about them, I can't imagine he'd be concerned about one more half-Cetra.
The Planet would have used the Lifestream to try and heal the wound of Jenova's arrival regardless. The Cetra merely tried to help in attempting to cultivate the land. Using the Lifestream as an offensive weapon against a threat was clearly not in the normal cards for how it behaves. This was something novel that Aerith somehow managed to spur. And as we see in On the Way to a Smile and Advent Children, it wasn't without consequences either.

 

[waw]

"When Meteor was summoned, [Sephiroth] had to surrender some of his memories to the Lifestream to help stop it. When he did that, he forgot a lot of his past before he knew of "what he was." Including what he looked like. And so he couldn't manifest himself as a Force Ghost to torment Cloud like you see him do in the Remake.

Yeah, I see no evidence to support their claim that Sephiroth wanted to stop Meteor. He does sacrifice/cast off his "human" memories of sorts which becomes part of that Lifestream. I'm drawn to Hercules when he burns in the end - his body dies but his divinity lives on at Mt. Olympus. Jenova-Sephiroth/non-Planet-thing lives on. But perhaps we could conceptualize this part as wholly alien/foreign matter.

Sephiroth's old memories became part of the lifestream and joined the flux that gathered around Meteor. But there is no indication that Sephiroth's will actively "helped" in stopping Meteor. Rather, it was just memories being forcefully carried by, and becoming part of, the larger lifestream current.

This is curious. As we've been discussing elsewhere, there are two components of the person that goes to the Lifestream: their Will and their Kokoro/Shin/Consciousness/Heart/Memories. It's pretty clear to me that Sephiroth's "will" doesn't get cast off, but his "kokoro" does, and that gets absorbed into the Lifestream. (There's such room to play with what that cast off is/looks like/exists like.) It does have his form/memories before he fell into evil completely, his few memories, etc.

So he didn't have to sacrifice his memories in order to enable the Lifestream to stop Meteor, he sacrificed memories he deemed unneccessary in order to protect the core memories of his identity?

My take on this is that Sephiroth gave up his "tether" to humanity - any of the things that might make him sympathetic/redeemable/connected to the Planet. So, memories of his middle school girlfriend, his dog Pongo, his buddies Genesis and Angeal, Gast's incredible fatherly affection and care... you know... all that canon material that makes Sephiroth human. (Oh wait no, all fanfic stuff, nevermind ). But that sort of material that grounded him and would pull him away from Jenova - I think he willing cast it off.

I'm just confused by the suggestions in the OP that he would summon Meteor,

Tumblr OP is confused!

 

[Smoothie King]

He's already irredeemable at this point. Even if you took away the atrocities of the original, as if they didn't happen, his cunning has tricked a severely disturbed man (Cloud) and his friends into destroying fate itself so that he can retroactively recreate the world in his own image. He wants to be God, and as the saying goes, absolute power corrupts absolutely. There's no going back from that.

On top of all this, the only way he can be stopped is if Cloud (who has been mentally tortured by Sephiroth) literally kills himself.

It's late and I'm not explaining myself with any form of lucidity, but you get the point. The guy is beyond the beyond when it comes to being insane. He's a sadist, a mass murderer, a complete psychopath.

 

[Roundhouse]

Speaking from a jokey perspective, it would be amusing. Speaking from a serious perspective, it makes no sense and would be ridiculous. (I'll also note that your last sentence is exactly what people said about a certain Naruto character before a certain plot twist that I dislike, but we've all covered this ground before...)

Redemption isn't really on the table here unless we're joking around. If they really wanted to experiment with a more morally grey Sephiroth in remake, though, I think they would have to make use of the time travel stuff to somehow incorporate the Sephiroth from the first part of Crisis Core or even earlier.

 

[cold_spirit]

Sooooo... if one of those "Whispers" took a more mortal form and journeyed with the party, I think it would be a way of affecting Sephiroth's whole being, leading to his redemption. I think it would be an effective "redemption" arc with your Whisper buddy "dying" when they... what... become part of Sephiroth again? And that affects Sephiroth who now has those memories/experiences or whatever.

The Devil May Cry series pretty much does this exactly with its big bad.

Spoiler: DMC5

Vergil, Dante's twin brother, literally splits himself between his demon and human halves. The demon half seeks power and opens a portal to hell. The human half, powerless to stop it, seeks Dante and Nero to fix his mess. As they adventure together the human half begins to see the error in his old ways. In the end the two halves merge and create an enlightened Vergil, perceptive of the deep seated pain that motivated his quest for power.

I liked it! It allowed us to see a vulnerable side of the big bad, made the big bad the source of conflict, and added a bit of mystery all without directly involving them. Likewise, the other character's previous biases couldn't interrupt the relationship. It was clever.

 

[Roundhouse]

What bad stuff has Seph actually done so far in the remake?

- Makes a passionate plea to save the environment and the planet. Tells Cloud to run from danger and be safe, to stay alive.
- Deliberately demonstrates the power of the Dementors when he forces their hand to resurrect Barret.
- Shows them a vision of the future so that they can be prepared and prevent it.
- Doesn't even want to fight Cloud, tries to ask for his help instead. When Cloud refuses, he still doesn't hit Cloud even once despite Cloud attacking him constantly. He disarms him peacefully and then warns him about meteor before leaving him alone.
- Clearly wants to defy destiny and the Dementors, which will in turn avoid the 'bad ending' that Nanaki warns the party about.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Pretty sure Sephiroth's passionate plea towards Cloud to save the planet involves reminding him just how much fun he had killing his Mom, butchering his hometown and how he'd hate for such a warm memory to be lost to time forever.

The plea naturally falls on deaf ears.

 

[Mobius Stripper]

What would a redeemed Sephiroth even look like? I can't envision anything that isn't wildly anticlimactic.

God, I really hope they don't do this.

 

[Mobius Stripper]

I also think it is important to ask not only what Sephiroth would have to do in order to be redeemed, but why he would seek redemption. Sephiroth is gleefully and unrepentantly evil. There's nothing that serves as any semblance of a morality chain for him, so any redemption arc would either come out of nowhere or require an extremely intricate setup around Sephiroth's motivations and history.

I should also establish outright that I am COMPLETELY baffled by the entire thing with the whispers. I have no idea what the creators are trying to do with them, and I therefore have no idea whether or not I think it is totally stupid. All discussions and theories around it are extremely confusing to me.

 

[Roundhouse]

I was joking, Mako XD

 

[OWA-2]

The best comparison I can make is how the incarnations of Naraku are both Naraku and not Naraku in Inuyasha. He creates these beings as extensions of himself to follow his will but they also develop and carry their own agency to varying degrees. So how that would work is up in the air, but that wouldn't really be "Sephiroth" that would be... Something derived from Sephiroth.

Did you know that both characters are voiced by the same actor? Toshiyuky Morikawa.

 

[Roundhouse]

Now that we have established that EOCRoth is a FutureRoth, separate from the Roth we know and mysterious, does this pave the way for, if not a redeemed Sephiroth.....a morally ambiguous one? Like the kind who is trying to save the planet, the kind who doesn't hit Cloud even once even when being attacked....exactly the kind we see at the end of remake.

 

[Makoeyes987]

He literally tried killing Cloud and the others earlier. Not sure how that's not hitting him.

Why he wants to keep the Planet from dying is the better question. And I would never take the intentions of someone like Sephiroth at face value.

The developers literally said that the nebulae that represent Sephiroth in the ending were meant to convey "Sometimes beautiful things in life don't come from positive places."

 

[Roundhouse]

That is a bit confusing, didn't even realise the boss fight Roth was EOCRoth. Not sure why he wants to fight and then suddenly is only wanting to talk and team up with Cloud just after.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Because Sephiroth enjoys fighting and messing with Cloud, especially while he's confused about his identity. There's a very real hate yet begrudging respect he feels towards Cloud.

 

[Roundhouse]

This ?Roth is seeming more and more like he could turn into a MorallyAmbiguousRoth or GoodRoth. The only thing against it is that he attacks the party as Mako notes, but that can be explained in a bunch of ways, because no one ends up seriously injured after that. If SE really are going for a GoodRoth in terms of ?Roth specifically, how would you all react?

 

[Makoeyes987]

There's literally nothing that implies that. He tries to kill the party and is shown to actively still be harboring intentions of summoning Meteor. He wants to "save" the planet by killing humans. If the Sephiroth at the Edge of Creation is morally ambiguous then so is the one in FFVII.

I have no idea how that's morally ambiguous. Just because he's not using watashi doesn't make him even adjacent to good.

 

[jeangl123]

This ?Roth is seeming more and more like he could turn into a MorallyAmbiguousRoth or GoodRoth. The only thing against it is that he attacks the party as Mako notes, but that can be explained in a bunch of ways, because no one ends up seriously injured after that. If SE really are going for a GoodRoth in terms of ?Roth specifically, how would you all react?

The script pretty much spells out that he's still evil when he's talking to Cloud at the end.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Exactly.

Like, all one needs to do is look at pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth in CC, compare it to how he looks there in the Remake and listen to their Japanese voices.

Does Sephiroth's facial expressions even look the same? Are his gestures and voice similar? Just because he uses "ore" doesn't change anything. He's mindfucking Cloud for his own purposes.