SPOILERS Sephiroth's Redemption Thread

[waw]

I wanted to make a thread discussing what it would take for Sephiroth to be "redeemed" in your eyes. That is, not do you think if he will be redeemed in Remake, but rather what it would take. I'm not sure where to put it, but I figured we will be discussing Remake a bit, so I put it in the Spoilers thread.

In various threads now, we've been discussing if Sephiroth is imprisoned in the Harbinger or came back willingly, if he's genuinely asking for Cloud's help at the Edge of Creation, and elsewhere we've discussed various aspects of his personality. As a young, stupid, kid who didn't know what a Fanfic was, I once read JenesisX's story in which Sephiroth joins the party in Nibelheim to fight against Jenova and as a young lad, I was quite moved by her characterization (I haven't returned to it since it was written and it was before any other FFVII content... so it probably leaves a lot to be desired in terms of personality and lore).

Then DOC and CC came out. Like many fans, I posited that Genesis's secret ending hinted at Genesis being the new big bad of the mythos, if not the "real" big bad all along, and CC showed a softer, more human side of Sephiroth albeit briefly. Heck, even in OG FFVII pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth wasn't entirely a jerk. So there was room to see our goth Samurai redeemed... I mean, if he wasn't the ultimate big bad, did he have to stay bad?

So what would it take for him to be redeemed for you, what would convince you given the lore?

I think I need the following things:
1. He has to overcome his Pride/Arrogance. Probably a slow burn, but lots of shows, like Loki, do these sorts of things.
2. He'd have to consciously go away from Jenova and fight those instincts. I don't think we can have a Jenova-connected Sephiroth be good.
3. He'd need a greater evil to fight, whether it was Jenova, Jenova's race, Genesis, etc.
4. He'd need a connection with a character other than Cloud. Like Kenobi-Vader, Kenobi can't redeem Vader, Cloud can't redeem Sephiroth. The hate and pain between the two is too great, but if someone younger, more ideallic, heck even Zack, reached out, I could see that being the path. Alternatively, a love interest could fill in here but Lucrecia/a loving mother like figure, also could work.
5. Sephiroth would need to sacrifice something he cares about in order to establish he's good. While a lot of stories make this the villain's life (again, Vader), I actually think for Sephiroth it would be his freedom. A chance at being truly free of fate, independence, and agency, almost an Atlas-holding-up-the-earth sort of thing or maybe even, like Golbez at the end of FFIV After Years: sailing the cosmos looking for something. In this case, it could be seeking out Jenova's home planet/race to destroy it.
6. Finally, I wonder if it would start with a Remnant.

A Remnant is both Sephiroth and not Sephiroth at the same time - his thoughtform, his will, his aspect, and not him. I believe it's in OTWTAS: Lifestream White that Aerith considers her own rival thoughtform to warn Cloud but is unsatisfied because it wouldn't look like her. (Maybe this is Maiden, but I don't think so....). We see at the end of AC, Kadaj crying out for Mother and it's a soft moment between him and Cloud - I don't know if Cloud could hold Sephiroth the same way. And yet, the Remnants return as Whispers (kinda) in Remake.

Sooooo... if one of those "Whispers" took a more mortal form and journeyed with the party, I think it would be a way of affecting Sephiroth's whole being, leading to his redemption. I think it would be an effective "redemption" arc with your Whisper buddy "dying" when they... what... become part of Sephiroth again? And that affects Sephiroth who now has those memories/experiences or whatever.

Again, this isn't theorizing of what we think will happen in Remake, but rather, if Nomura, Nojima, Toriyama, Kitase, etc... if all these guys were hell bent on redeeming Sephiroth... what would you need to see happen?

I once had an idea for a post-credit sort of scene to see Vincent mentoring a black-haired Sephiroth-reincarnated child (to show he wasn't touched by Jenova anymore).

 

[grooveorganic]

Oooooh, this is a good topic. I need a few days to think about this but you almost covered all of the bases I'd consider.

 

[Makoeyes987]

All of those are pretty much antithetical to Sephiroth.

1.) Sephiroth has always held his pride, even before he was evil. The one thing that defined him was his pride in his strength. Him abandoning that would be so out of character to the point of just... Why? Something that radical would need an entire game/story/etc to even begin to unpack or attempt. It'd be the most poorly written heel-face turn, otherwise.

2.) Jenova is what makes him "him" now. There's nothing left of him as a human. He surrendered those memories, feelings, and attachments to the Lifestream a long time ago. How could he go back from that? The only thing that gives him his power, agency and identity now is as the superior existence that is Jenova's legacy. That's again, a pretty tall order to just excise out of his identity.

3.) Now this can actually happen. I mean, he's not completely irrational. As shown in things like Dissidia, he can logically align himself with those he would wish to torment to work against a greater threat, or rather, a threat that would hinder his own ambitions long term.

4.) Sephiroth has no connections. Cloud literally is the only thing left, and it's a bond of twisted hatred and obsession.

5.) Sephiroth has nothing he values or cares about, other than himself. So that'd be hard to do.

6.) This is interesting because there's some truth to this. A remnant is Sephiroth because it comes from him, however it also acts sort of independently because it's an offshoot of him. So Kadaj, which was Sephiroth's insanity, cruelty, but also child-like and innocent, was able to reveal a type of vulnerability and agency beyond his creator. He's still very much part of Sephiroth but he's sorta like... An offshoot made from his essence.

The best comparison I can make is how the incarnations of Naraku are both Naraku and not Naraku in Inuyasha. He creates these beings as extensions of himself to follow his will but they also develop and carry their own agency to varying degrees. So how that would work is up in the air, but that wouldn't really be "Sephiroth" that would be... Something derived from Sephiroth.

And you remembered correctly, that was Lifestream White, not Maiden.

 

[grooveorganic]

2.) Jenova is what makes him "him" now. There's nothing left of him as a human. He surrendered those memories, feelings, and attachments to the Lifestream a long time ago. How could he go back from that? The only thing that gives him his power, agency and identity now is as the superior existence that is Jenova's legacy. That's again, a pretty tall order to just excise out of his identity.

I wonder about this. A running theory is that Sephiroth on the Edge of Creation is Advent Children Sephiroth, and he's somehow gone back to the past, and basically re-found all of the scattered pieces of himself like they were horcruxes or something. So wouldn't this mean he's gotten his humanity back?

He did have roots before Jenova, even if most of them were with Shinra. He also had a desire to leave Shinra before the Nibelheim incident, but also after Angeal and Genesis (allegedly) had died. I think the problem is he's never gotten to think about what his life would be like without the title of SOLDIER. It would help if we got more of his inner thoughts.

 

[Makoeyes987]

In Lifestream Black, he throws away his human memories, attachments, etc in order to retain his identity in the Lifestream and focus on his goal of creating Geostigma and getting revenge. I think if that's AC Sephiroth then that sorta puts that perspective centerstage of what he feels towards humanity. He wants to preserve the Planet, not humanity. That's what Aerith says as well.

For all we know the only reason his personal pronoun is "ore" in the Edge of Creation is to mindfuck Cloud in a vain attempt to deceive him. Apparently it even briefly worked since Cloud felt a slight questioning and desire to accept his hand but then he resisted by clenching the Buster Sword instead.

So I'm more inclined to believe it's Sephiroth being a duplicitous villain who knows how to work Cloud's head. I don't think it's indicative of humanity.

 

[TurquoiseHammer]

Even though I'm firmly in the "he's just manipulating Cloud" camp, I still think this is really fun to think about, not least because it's clear the writers want you to at least remotely consider the possibility, if only to inhabit Cloud's shoes.

For me the big question is: what would have to have happened to Sephiroth after AC for him to do a 180 like this, personality-wise. In other words, what event happened or what new knowledge did he gain in the Lifestream to completely realign his aims and motivations? Genesis is of course the major dangling story thread left over after DoC, so it's a reasonable place to start. And if we're talking Genesis we also need to discuss Minerva. I also need a bit to cook up some theories.

In Lifestream Black, he throws away his human memories, attachments, etc in order to retain his identity in the Lifestream and focus on his goal of creating Geostigma and getting revenge.

Man I had such a good shower thought about this that completely went out of my head. It had to do with how EoC Sephiroth seems to have regained these memories. Ughhh what was it?

 

[Clement Rage]

If he comes to the conclusion that his scheming is futile, he might walk away from it.

'It's the end of the universe, what did I achieve with all my strength?'

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Sephiroth getting over his pride in his strength is the big one for me. Everything else about him kinda flows from that. He *needs* to be the strongest, most special existence there is. He always has, even before he goes crazy. He has a Superiority Complex a mile wide (if burried very deep down where it's hard to see while he is sane).

What undoes Sephiroth is not Jenova per say. It's Zack's question of "what do you mean you're not a a normal SOLDIER?". That sends Sephiroth into a tailspin as he realizes that he's just another one of Hojo's human experiments and Sephiroth *can't* be like anything else. He won't allow for it. Being like something else makes him out not to be "special". The rest of Nibelheim is Sephiroth finding something else that can make him special again. First it's that he's the "Last Cetra" since Jenova was thought to be a Cetra. Then he finds out what Jenova actually is which is even *better* for him. Now he's the only successful son of Jenova which nothing else can be and he's strong enough to overcome anything on the Planet that wants to make him more like everything else.

The ultimate form of this is how the Lifestream is absorbing him. The Lifestream absorbs *everything* that is alive on it. If the Lifestream succeeds in absorbing Sephiroth, that proves he is (ultimately) just like everything else on the Planet. And he can't stand that idea.

 

[Ghost X]

To redeem himself, in my eyes, he'd essentially have to be a different person. Pathologically, it doesn't seem like he has that capacity . Some people can do really bad things, and change, and be horrified at the person they were, but I don't think that's Sephiroth .

 

[Eerie]

If he comes to the conclusion that his scheming is futile, he might walk away from it.

'It's the end of the universe, what did I achieve with all my strength?'

Amusingly, we had a rant with a friend on Twitter about big bad guys who wanted to destroy everything and I was like "yeah, what will they do if humankind is destroyed? Grow potatoes?" which led us to Sephiroth needing to become a farmer before he decides if he really wants to wipe out humanity

The ultimate form of this is how the Lifestream is absorbing him. The Lifestream absorbs *everything* that is alive on it. If the Lifestream succeeds in absorbing Sephiroth, that proves he is (ultimately) just like everything else on the Planet. And he can't stand that idea.

In a sense, this is why I feel that Sephiroth can only be redeemed through accepting death. If he's ever redeemed, it won't be because he becomes a good guy, it's because he will accept to dissolve in the Lifestream. The amusing point, to me, is this would probably give the Lifestream a big boost and another long way before the planet truly dies, instead of the 7 seconds away. This is how he'd redeem himself.

 

[waw]

Whew, y'all don't realize how much elation I get from these silly posts. I geek out way too hard seeing your replies and thoughts. I wanted to get to everybod at least a little bit, these are really worthwhile.

All of those are pretty much antithetical to Sephiroth.

I agree. I actually think of Walter White in Breaking Bad. (Open spoilers ahead). By the end of the whole series, folks debate if he's "redeemed" or not (same for Ben/Kylo and Vader, right?) Folks disagree whether a final act of selflessness is enough to "redeem" one's soul or something like this. And so far, we have no real reason for Sephiroth to redeem himself, there's no one he cares about. I mean, at least part of Naraku loved Kikyo (mostly in a messed up way buuut) and tugging on that string could have done it.

Heck, maybe there will be a CloudxSephy finale that'll put Cleriths and Clifas to absolute shame, just to make this work!

We'd need to see some sort of new connection, rather a retconned in old connection I imagine - could be Sephiroth's sister or lover (early Aerith development ideas) that would help bring him around. I do think Lucrecia could be used to work something in.... while these aren't connections Sephiroth feels, they might be something he or a Remnant of him could stat to feel... IF...

n Lifestream Black, he throws away his human memories, attachments, etc in order to retain his identity in the Lifestream and focus on his goal of creating Geostigma and getting revenge. I think if that's AC Sephiroth then that sorta puts that perspective centerstage of what he feels towards humanity.

So the Remnants are parts of him, right? Youthfulness, brash, arrogant, his allure, stuff like this. What if there's a fourth Remnant, one that is what he cast away, human memories, attachments, etc, something he kicked out of his being and that's something different/redeemable? This comment, Mako, may be the best path to finding a redeemed (at least part) of Sephiroth.

He did have roots before Jenova, even if most of them were with Shinra. He also had a desire to leave Shinra before the Nibelheim incident, but also after Angeal and Genesis (allegedly) had died. I think the problem is he's never gotten to think about what his life would be like without the title of SOLDIER. It would help if we got more of his inner thoughts.

I actually think Zack could connect him to some of those roots. While I don't actually believe this is the end goal of having Zack around again.... I mean... If there's anybody alive that could connect with a pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth, eternal puppy Zack could be that guy. And his willingness to forgive and love and all this could set him apart from Cloud and play a very different role. Doubtful, but a skillful writer might be able to make that work. But would the audience buy it? Not without some sort of greater threat looming, I think.

Which leads to...

In other words, what event happened or what new knowledge did he gain in the Lifestream to completely realign his aims and motivations?

Leading money would be Genesis/Minerva, unless some thoughtform/Remnant over powers or wants to break free? I think part of what we might actually see in the Remake Saga is a Sephiroth that wants to be truly free, even from Jenova's instinctual influence, from his own fate, and his connection with Cloud. What if part of him goes too far? If we we're talking about a bigger, badder event, is it that Sephiroth dooms himself, so part of him wants to stop himself?

Can FF7 even legitimately have a threat bigger than Sephiroth? Would it even be FF7 then? Star Wars has struggled, in some ways, to move beyond Palpatine and Vader, though arguably, for certain fans at least, enemies like the Vong, Thrawn, or the anceint Emperor all have successfully moved that dial. For many SW fans, it's not all about Palpatine anymore... Could FF7 fans ever feel the same thing?

If he comes to the conclusion that his scheming is futile, he might walk away from it.

Which, I think, is critical. Either he has to see his scheming dooms himself and he tries to stop himself, (if that time travely sense is even possible here) or he know he'll never be able to achieve it and in the face of total failure, he was humbled.

Again, I do think part of his ask to Cloud was genuine... if Cloud would have joined him willingly, he'd have broken fate and maybe achieved his goal. I doubt that was any sort of "redemption" though.

Sephiroth getting over his pride in his strength is the big one for me.

What sorts of things do you see could possibly do this? My friends and I had a FF7 tabletop campaign years ago, when Remake was first announced and we had a story about Sephiroth having a pet Behemoth when he was a kid. A little Behemoth puppy, that grew too big and rampaged through Midgar and he had to put it down. It was a simple way of humanizing Seph, putting your rabid dog down is instantly heartbreaking for anyone (we had two players cry that night). It was also a simple way of hardening his heart early on, and the "puppy" was a nice reflection of Zack biting him in the end, or trying to.

And yet... only Sephiroth could have a Behemoth pup as a pet XD

The ultimate form of this is how the Lifestream is absorbing him.

Honestly, that's a good send off - Sephiroth allowing himself to be absorbed by the Lifestream to fend off something greater and more destructive than himself, or hold the planet together after Meteor, something like that. It is a great send off BUT, it has to be earned, something has to push him there to make him care enough about the Planet.

Is Kadaj's "Mother?" line at the very end of AC enough? Was that part enough to make part of Sephiroth feel different about Aerith/Minerva/Planet that she/it is the real Mother?

To redeem himself, in my eyes, he'd essentially have to be a different person. Pathologically, it doesn't seem like he has that capacity .

Yanno, I keep coming back to this, and it's why that Remnant thought keep sticking in my mind. In some ways it feels like a cheapened out - it isn't Sephiroth being redeemed, just his humanity or some part of him or whatever. But on another level, I'm kind of okay with it.

which led us to Sephiroth needing to become a farmer before he decides if he really wants to wipe out humanity

I lol'd. I've wondered what he would do. So, not gonna lie, I had a silly head canon theory since the early 2000s that Jenova was an FFIV Lunarian gone-wrong and that Sephiroth was descended from them. Sephiroth's ultimate "happiness" would be finding this race of magical masters and being taken in by them. But After Years theoretically killed most of them, kinda? But they way they "sail the cosmos" in their Moon, searching for a Planet and guiding life, and Golbez's redemption arc all seemed somehow fitting for ol' Silverlocks.

In a sense, this is why I feel that Sephiroth can only be redeemed through accepting death.

If he's ever redeemed, you'll be right. it'll be through death, but I hate it.
I hate that Kylo, Vader, Walter, and so many others get redeemed at the point of death. The only redemptions that really mean something to me in Star Wars is Ostranders comics run with Quinlan Vos, Xesh, and then Revan. These three darksiders get redeemed to the Light Side, but they have to live with their sins and spend a lifetime trying to fix them. That means something to me... death can be such an easy out. Like, Vader, you murdered children, destroyed planets and ruined countless lives. And he just dies and everyone's like... live on as a savior and Force Ghost, you balanced the force.... what a hero!

Nah man, he's a genocidal, arrogant bastard who did ONE thing after COUNTLESS bad things, how is death fair?! You got a karmic debt MFer and you need to work it off!!!!

I would be so remiss, I think, if Sephiroth is redeemed in death. He needs to almost live with that guilt (a la Vincent and Cloud) and work to make the world a better place, as bizarre as that may sound.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I think if Sephiroth redeemed himself, he'd be the protagonist of this story, not Cloud, and he'd be the one who saved the Planet, not Cloud. Cloud would become a support character, albeit a well-rounded one with his own arc of character development.
I don't think anything less than sacrificing himself to save humanity, or at least to save some people, can redeem him now. It's his actions that count, not his feelings or his words.

 

[a_apple]

I saw a pretty interesting take on reddit about what Sephiroths real goal might be, baisically Sephiroth tries to replace Clouds real self with himself to get Clouds body as a new vessel. In the Remake we got a couple of scenes where in the og Cloud comunicates with his true persona but in the Remake Sephiroth interupts everytime Cloud tries to do that. He 'replaces' Clouds true persona with himself.

 

[ultima786]

I love you all. Sephiroth will not be redeemed. What a nightmare story scenario that would be.

 

[waw]

I saw a pretty interesting take on reddit about what Sephiroths real goal might be, baisically Sephiroth tries to replace Clouds real self with himself to get Clouds body as a new vessel. In the Remake we got a couple of scenes where in the og Cloud comunicates with his true persona but in the Remake Sephiroth interupts everytime Cloud tries to do that. He 'replaces' Clouds true persona with himself.

Seph wanting Cloud's body, knowing that Cloud can beat him on the mental playground and shove him out, does make sense why he may genuinely ask Cloud to join him. For whatever reason, Cloud's limits seem past all humans, and arguably even Sephiroth's. He's a freak of nature that's beyond all others... ostensibly at least. So if that's at all true, then yeah, I could see Sephiroth wanting that to be his vessel and Cloud "letting" him in willingly could be the goal in Part 1. Not just vampiric, horrific.

I've wondered a bit, and I doubt it'll be the case, but I could see a situation where they flip the script of the original: Sephiroth successfully takes Cloud's body in Part 2 and instead of killing Aerith, kills Tifa (who like, I don't know, shoves Aerith out of the way?) then Zack replaces Cloud as the protagonist and he and Aerith continue their love story and have to sadly kill Cloud to free Sephiroth. I 100% doubt this will be the case, but when Zack's reveal happened, I considered it.

Evil Cloud is, possibly, the only way they could make Cloud scarier, while keeping the heavy tragedy of the original.

I love you all. Sephiroth will not be redeemed. What a nightmare story scenario that would be.

I can't emphasize enough that I agree with you and I don't think Sephiroth will be redeemed. As I said in the first post, it's really about if Square tried to redeem Sephiroth, what would you need to see to feel it/believe it. I don't think in anyway that'll be the case.

 

[grooveorganic]

I love you all. Sephiroth will not be redeemed. What a nightmare story scenario that would be.

I wish this was true, but the bar for villain's being redeemed/atoning is extremely low and very rarely requires a long drawn out sequence of events, let alone actual acknowledgment from the bad guy themselves. Some of them don't even have to do anything to get better, they just claim they'll live better going forward. Genesis is public enemy #1 for this.

I have to ask. Which crimes are we considering when we're thinking about his redemption? Technically he hasn't done the worst if we just go off of the remake. Can he be held responsible and redeemed for something he hasn't done yet?

And to add; Another thing to consider is how redemption isn't just about the person seeking it, it's if people hurt by them accept it.

Cloud and Tifa could just straight up let go of their anger and forgive Sephiroth for killing their families and destroying their town and once that's done... Would we even be allowed to be mad at Sephiroth anymore?

Or Sephiroth could just... stop and literally do nothing else and this story ends.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Some of them don't even have to do anything to get better, they just claim they'll live a better going forward. Genesis is public enemy #1 for this.

This never happened. Genesis wasn't redeemed, he was cured and able to go back from being a monster. That's not really "redemption." In fact, Genesis was never revisited to even be given the chance for redemption. Saving Genesis from degradation was for the benefit of Zack's heroism and fulfilling Angeal's wish to save his friend. And that's a far cry from making it about Genesis being redeemed. Totally not the same thing.

And Sephiroth has to this date, offered zero interest or desire to be redeemed. He doesn't even believe he did anything wrong. He's not in a vulnerable state. So it's like offering forgiveness to someone already burning the village and cashing out the loot.

Cloud and Tifa could just straight up let go of their anger and forgive Sephiroth for killing their families and destroying their town and once that's done... Would we even be allowed to be mad at Sephiroth anymore?

And why would they ever do this? This is sorta like putting the cart before the horse. What in the world would be gained by them just swallowing that grief and nullifying their own emotions? Forgiving someone who's unrepentant, believes they're a god and hates every human alive does what now?

 

[ultima786]

There is nothing they could do to convince me that Sephiroth is redeemable. He’s literally so cryptic, mentally torturous to Cloud, and gloats about killing his mother and village. I can’t read anything in part 1 outside of this context. Yes he wants to save the planet, but it’s clearly for his own purposes. He perhaps is showing Cloud how powerful and great life would be for him under his wing, but that isn’t mercy or kindness by any stretch

 

[Makoeyes987]

Nevermind that'd be completely "off brand/out of character" for Sephiroth. What in the world would S-E even do with a Sephiroth like that?

That's a hollow shell of a heroic protagonist that's filmsy as wet cardboard. Sephiroth doesn't fit that role at all. It'd be weak, just like it would be weak to flip Cloud with a face-heel turn. They don't fit their opposite roles and switching them to play those roles would be trite. Just shock value.

A heroic Sephiroth is just a perfect pristine hero with basically nothing dynamic save for perfection. What's that bringing again? The fascination with sane, heroic Sephiroth is only because of who he becomes in the story as the villain.

 

[grooveorganic]

And why would they ever do this? This is sorta like putting the cart before the horse.

I'm not Nojima, Nomura, Kitase, or Toriyama, so I don't know what they'd do with Sephiroth or why. I can't even tell what the hell they want us to think of Sephiroth right now. After ch. 18 did you know what was actually up? I just made up an example for how far left things could go when someone wants to find a way to absolve a villain of their wrong doings. I've literally seen this kind of thing happen in real life, because people get tired of being angry and want to move forward.

I doubt Cloud or Tifa would ever be written to forgive Sephiroth, but it is fun to think about that type of thing.

A heroic Sephiroth is just a perfect pristine hero with basically nothing dynamic save for perfection. What's that bringing again? The fascination with sane, heroic Sephiroth is only because of who he becomes in the story as the villain.

Perfect and pristine isn't what I got from Cloud talking about Sephiroth in the og. Before CC, we didn't even get a point of view about Sephiroth's real personality that wasn't filtered through Cloud. Yet, despite Cloud's mako/mimic/delusional revision of Nibelheim events, he wanted us to understand that Sephiroth used to be different. This was all before Cloud went into details about how Sephiroth could even fight or lost his mind. He was the one who called Sephiroth his friend. Cloud still idolized and revered Sephiroth, probably up until Aerith gets killed by him. Thinking on this more, I've seen plenty of people say that Cloud's need for revenge might also stem from some twisted need to save the man he once looked up to.

We're getting a chapter for Sephiroth that's supposed to be about when he was younger with Ever Crisis sometime next year so maybe that might shed some light on what kind of person he was prior to the war and CC events. Does that matter now? *shrug* Will that help in the case of developing a redemption arc, who knows. I don't personally think they're going down that road, even though I joke about Sephiroth going wild card, because the window for that has passed.

But the remake is already on some new worlds and parallel timelines shit, so why not?

 

[abigail]

tldr; i cant think of a way Sephiroth could be redeemed in my eyes. I just can't.

what could make me change how i see him? have him make different choices. which then becomes things like for instance: Nibelheim doesnt happen. or goes differently. Effectively Sephiroth *never becomes the villain in the first place* in order to become something that i feel is redeemed.

ie: he never does anything that requires redemption

and someone who would make different choices in the situations he does. might a different person than the one we know. Like still Sephiroth, but with a different value set or something. at least while he was alive pre-Nibelheim Incident.

And I barely know who that is.

Sephiroth has a tragic backstory. i dont think i need to go over any of that. But given that back story, or depsite some of it. he makes choices that lead to him becoming the BBEG of FF7 and FF7R. hell, he casts a shadow over the compilation.

and it's part that he made active choices to become the monster. and well as (the person i barely know/understand) that would even opt *into* that. Yes he is not operating on the same information some others are, in similar circumstances (notably: Cloud, Zack, Angela and Genesis). And some of that information is innacurate and just out right wrong.

But in my mind he opts into becoming the villain, and begins with Nibelheim. tho depending on who you ask on that planet, he had already become a villain years before (wutai, i'm talking about Wutai).

several parts victim, of experiements, shinra in general, and jenova nibbling at his mind. but other people in similar positions have NOT gone the "then i am a msonter, and i want to [end all life on the planet]" route.

Genesis came close, sure. and dont think i've let him off the hook for CC. My feelings are mixed/complicated for him at BEST. so don't think all anyone has to be is "not Sephiroth" to be redeemed in my eyes. and i ONLY mentioned Genesis. because compared to Sephiroth. I've not really forgiven him? I understand where he was coming from. but Forgiven? no. "I've not forgiven or forgotten. You get a 2nd chance, i GUESS. but you're on notice"

and if Genesis is even more a victim than Sephiroth is, and i have him on notice. Why would I think that Sephiroth is even redeem*able*?

 

[X-SOLDIER]

So, without diving TOO deeply into all of this, since there are a lot of inter-related themes to what I've been writing about over the last year, what I touched on a bit in the last article I wrote, and what I just wrote when talking about parallels to how Itachi is used in Naruto (while still being as long-winded as one might expect of my tl;dr) – it's very much all about what Sephiroth's understanding is of his own circumstances for what you think here.

Even looking at the original lyrics in Latin for One-Winged Angel, Sephiroth is in literally maddening amounts of existential pain and psychological torture over the nature of his own existence being absolutely fucking monstrous. He's also extremely charismatic and actively manipulative, which are facets of his personality that allowed him to ultimately beat Shinra at their own game by being an even more perfect monster and representation of narcissistic manipulation of others towards his own ultimate ends, at the expense of everyone else on Earth. That's why Genesis always envies him, while Sephiroth deeply hates but accepts what he is in Nibelheim.

Ultimately, I an important part of the nature of Sephiroth's character is that you're MEANT to always be hesitant to trust him, because he's someone who's good enough to beat the authoritarian regime of Shinra's most refined narcissists at their own game. In the moral lesson of the story, he's the person you should NEVER grant the type of power he desires. The question is – is that the REAL Sephiroth, or is just that the monster that he knows he made himself into, in order to survive his hellish existence as a human science experiment, and also (what he may or may not know) the son of the most ethically immoral and inhumane mad scientist who created him. Did the pre-Nibelheim Sephiroth just lose track of who he was along the way the way that Cloud did post-Nibelheim? We know that in Case of Lifestream Black that Sephiroth gave up those more human aspects of himself to survive, which means that he still had those tucked away somewhere during FFVII. Whether his ego had completely eclipsed those parts of himself, or if he was merely manipulating that as a tool to be what was necessary are both just as likely.

It's why I think that Godzilla is the best starting point to look at the themes of a "perfect monster" in a story about those themes. In the quote from Godzilla's creator Ishiro Honda, "Monsters are tragic beings. They are born too tall, too strong, too heavy. They are not evil by choice. That is their tragedy. They do not attack people because they want to, but because of their size and strength, mankind has no other choice but to defend himself. After several stories such as this, people end up having a kind of affection for the monsters. They end up caring about them." This is a natural evolution of sentiment that comes from understanding something. The difference between most Kaiju and Sephiroth is that he has intentional agency for all of his actions – but only because those are the types of manipulative evil that Jenova represents as the monster meant to mirror the evils of Shinra. Sephiroth is still designed as the exact same type of ultimately tragic monster that perfectly turns those things against the ones who created him.

In the context of Remake, probably the best representation of the evolution of the themes that One-Winged Angel used in its lyrics are from the 2016 Shin Godzilla's theme Who Will Know, and especially why Sephiroth CANNOT let go of his connection to Cloud. It encapsulates the idea that this is a monster who is impossible to redeem, who must be opposed at all costs, but who should be regarded with fear, awe, respect, and above all else – pity. It's why that song plays when Shin Godzilla is being attacked out of fear and hatred for all of the danger that be poses, and is left standing utterly unharmed in a sea of flames – in the same way that Sephiroth is during the Nibelheim incident. It's why Shin Godzilla's ending emphasizes that the more that pain evolves to survive, the closer it becomes to being something human – and it's never truly dead, but it's always just waiting to reemerge – exactly why Jenova couldn't be killed, but was just put in stasis like all the other Lovecraftian entities her design echoes.

The key here in Final Fantasy VII is just whether or not CLOUD absolutely loathes and anathematize Sephiroth at the end of Remake and murders him out of revenge for Nibelheim & Aerith like he seemingly did in FFVII, or will he instead openly make it clear that he pities Sephiroth like he does at the end of Advent Children in order to close out their conflict with one another for good? (Ultimately, I think that this is the most psychologically and ideologically important clarification to emphasize in the original story, which is why Remake is doing what it is).

In both versions of that scenario – Sephiroth is still destroyed. That's for the same reason that Sephiroth destroyed Jenova rather than allow himself to just become her, and the call of Reunion literally never goes away. It represents the aching emptiness of those losses that you can never have back that are a part of being human. I don't think that there is EVER a way to definitively state whether Sephiroth's ends would ever justify his means, specifically because they represent a path to a world that cannot co-exist with the one where Cloud and everyone else are. There is everything necessary to allow Cloud to recognize that they're both driven by identical forces towards opposing ends, and to treat his final face-off against Sephiroth in one of two ways depending on how Cloud grows throughout the course of the story.

In all of Cloud's narratives, whenever Cloud is left paralyzed by the horrors of the world and his powerlessness in it, Sephiroth is there to motivate him forwards towards an end that forces Cloud to become stronger in order to overcome those feelings. This is the critical part of Sephiroth as a literally accurate depiction of the experience of someone facing PTSD and trauma – especially in the context of war veterans seeing hallucinations of enemy combatants that they personally killed. That's why Sephiroth's closest thing to "redemption" is always when Cloud finally is finally at peace, which is why that also represents the opposite of Sephiroth's own self-motivation of, "never being reduced to just a memory" which is in conflict with the world he is forced to pursue so long as he has ANY agency.

I think that this is why Sephiroth can't even be redeemed, because the horrible path he was given isn't one that leads to redemption. It only ever leads to his own safety at the expense of everything else – it is deserving of pity just as much as it is necessary to bring it to an end. That's essentially the key role of the "bad guy" in what's meant to intentionally echo the themes throughout all of mythological tragedy. Sephiroth's very nature from BEFORE his biological conception is created in a way such that he has no way to exist in harmony with the world – either he shapes the world to fit himself, or he's destroyed by it.

Is he manipulating Cloud to ensure his own destruction? No. "I will not end. Nor will I have you end." If anything, I think that the closest he can ever get to redemption is if he actually and genuinely decides to trust Cloud with his own fate, and no longer has to coax Cloud into actions towards his own ends – but that's the issue with Cloud's key weakness in never being able to do that, and why Sephiroth is always there to serve that end for him psychologically after Cloud kills him. So... who's actually the puppet here?

There are plenty of ways to interpret that relationship, but I think that Sephiroth being a perfect monster is why redemption's not ever what he needs in the same way that it's exactly everything that Vincent is driven by. Ultimately, it's an idea that doesn't really have contextual meaning for his character if you try to pin down what he needs to be redeemed for/from – as they are the same as the very nature of his existence that drives his & Cloud's actions.



X

 

[Roundhouse]

Just for fun, do you think a Naruto style route could ever work here, Soldier?

We find out Sephiroth didn't actually do that stuff at Nibelheim (after all, we only see the end of it, which could be staged or a Jenova mimic illusion). We never see him kill the Zolom, Cloud and co just (quite rudely) assume that it was him. He could be an animal lover for all they know. We never see him cut down Tseng either, just a vision of it. The president? We don't see him kill him. We only see the sword sticking out of him. Aerith? Maybe Sephiroth did that because Holy would have wiped out everyone on the planet after judging them.

Obviously I'm joking here, and the much more feasible option is the NewRoth trying to be good in the remake, but that would be very tricky to pull off too. I think you'd need to think of an even greater threat than Roth, and have him help Cloud to defeat it.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I think there's... a kernel of "benevolence" in what the Sephiroth from chapter 18 is hoping to accomplish. If you want to look at it that way.

Sephiroth is clearly trying to avert the Planet's demise. He is apparently aware that somehow, someway, the Planet will eventually suffer a permanent end that will ultimately conclude everything that exists or will exist in the future.

So he wishes to subvert that, and wants Cloud to help him defy that destiny.

However.

There's something fundamentally at odds with that desire. The truth is all things live to die. Death is the natural order of life. Living things, from animals, humans, and even planets eventually return to the original flow of spirit energy to cycle on through with existence and produce new life. A planet that subverts that order to live forever becomes a stagnant, dead planet frozen in time. Like Terra in FFIX.

Sephiroth wants to hold the Planet in perpetual existence so he can control it and all the precious things, like his hate for Cloud, their conflict, the pain he inflicts on him, etc. He wants that all to never fade. So, is that really a good thing? Is subverting the natural order of life, death and new life a "good" goal? I think that's a very important question Cloud will have to consider because yeah, Sephiroth wanting to protect the Planet is "good." But how "good" is it?

 

[Odysseus]

Sephiroth wants to hold the Planet in perpetual existence so he can control it and all the precious things, like his hate for Cloud, their conflict, the pain he inflicts on him, etc. He wants that all to never fade. So, is that really a good thing? Is subverting the natural order of life, death and new life a "good" goal? I think that's a very important question Cloud will have to consider because yeah, Sephiroth wanting to protect the Planet is "good." But how "good" is it?

Why is this the plot to Sonic and the Black Knight