Sephiroth's Swordsmanship: How legit is it?

[Blade]

Ever since playing the Dissidia games and later Crisis Core I've begun to wonder a few things about Sephiroth's fighting style.

I know he uses a technique called Octaslash, and it's the same technique Zack uses, implying they both had similar training in SOLDIER, but beyond that I know next to nothing.

There's no backstory on the Masamune, or even who taught swordsmanship to members of SOLDIER.

Another thing is the way Sephiroth uses the sword and the way his whole body moves while swinging the sword. It's less moving and more flying.

In FF you normally wouldn't question that and just accept it, but I have to wonder if they actually used Odachi or even Nodachi greatsword techniques with his style even as a reference at all. I also noted Sephiroth could equip spears in Duodecim as well.

At least with Cloud the way he swings a sword is convincing despite the physics not working.

I'm just trying to understand how far they actually WENT with Sephiroth's design.

 

[ChipNoir]

I mean, you're talking about a a school of martial arts versus a melee situation. Sephiroth doesn't take any of the stances or maneuvers typical across the general school of thought behind Japanese swordsmanship.

The thing about Sephiroth is he has more raw power in his pinky than pretty much anyone else. He doesn't need technique when a mere undisciplined strike can cut through a standard issue SOLDIER sword. He in fact cold-cocks Cloud during the Zero Hour Mobius episode, and that seems only slightly less lethal than using his sword. Dueling with Sephiroth is basically the equivalent of trying to withstand a sword bolted to the grill of a speeding mack truck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KxjGn30PDA

This is the only time we've ever seen him duel with what roughly equates as equals to his power at the time, and he takes no defensive stance, nor looks for openings. The sword is just an extension of his body. His real power is in his inhuman speed and strength. Anything he does with the sword is either going to be an inpentrable parry just by making contact, or lethal by sheer force, so he's not someone that has to rely on ever needing to outmaneuver someone's sword to get to them. His technique seems to be that he allows people to wear themselves down: They have to fully commit to a strike against his sword because letting up allows him an instant opening that is likely fatal by default. So all Sephiroth has to do is keep fending off blows till his challenger wears down. The only weakness he's ever really had is ego.

Otherwise, the only interesting thing about Sephiroth is he's left handed. Even if he were a traditionalist, he'd present some surprising elements just based on fighting against someone you're not as likely to encounter as a right handed person.

 

[Clement Rage]

Ordinary swordsmanship doesn't really apply, because the frame of reference is so different. His lunging distance is like fifty feet, and when every blade clash sends your opponent flying, there's no real room for finesse.

 

[Blade]

I get that he's powerful and fast, but why animate that aspect at all?

What frames of reference are they even using, if any?

Another thing is, if what you're saying is true, then the Masamune sword would break before Sephiroth did, you can't say the sword is unbreakable, no matter HOW deft the parry is.

Speed and friction would eventually melt the sword, and that's not exactly what happens when he's defeated by Cloud. (For reference he's matched blows with "Savior" Lightning in Dissidia NT, and her Crimson Blitz sword would sooner break on her in that high speed situation)

Sephiroth's parries are about the same as if he were using a one-handed rapier or cutlass way smaller than the sword's actual size. Kendo, to my knowledge doesn't use parries with one hand for a Katana, no matter how good someone is. And he takes "full-weight" parries too, hardly any redirection of force.

Sephiroth might as well be using an iron girder or a foam noodle, since he isn't using his Katana the way it was intended to be used.

 

[ChipNoir]

I get that he's powerful and fast, but why animate that aspect at all?

What frames of reference are they even using, if any?

Another thing is, if what you're saying is true, then the Masamune sword would break before Sephiroth did, you can't say the sword is unbreakable, no matter HOW deft the parry is.

Speed and friction would eventually melt the sword, and that's not exactly what happens when he's defeated by Cloud. (For reference he's matched blows with "Savior" Lightning in Dissidia NT, and her Crimson Blitz sword would sooner break on her in that high speed situation)

Sephiroth's parries are about the same as if he were using a one-handed rapier or cutlass way smaller than the sword's actual size. Kendo, to my knowledge doesn't use parries with one hand for a Katana, no matter how good someone is. And he takes "full-weight" parries too, hardly any redirection of force.

Sephiroth might as well be using an iron girder or a foam noodle, since he isn't using his Katana the way it was intended to be used.

Again, you're trying to apply logic where it doesn't exist. A character's raw strength/chi/spirit is the deciding factor. The weapon is just the medium. Even guns, given the rising strength of Barret and Vincent. Barret in particular is able to channel metaphysical blasts through what should be a standard issue machine gun easily found in slum markets all over Midgar.

For example, just the hologram of Sephiroth was able to split Zack's standard issue sword. But Angeal was able to use that same sword to fend off Sephiroth in person, and was able to use the same broken sword to fend of the hologram that had damaged it in the first place. The only changing factor here is the weilder of the weapon. So the weapon literally becomes the extension of whoever is using it. That is as close to a consistent rule as the FF franchise has ever had.

From what little I've learned about Japanese fencing, Sephiroth doesn't follow any school of discipline I've ever seen. Nor does he work with any western style of swordplay either. NONE of the sword wielders in any Final Fantasy game does for that matter.

They just go with what looks cool. There really isn't anything more to Sephiroth than that, but a more educated lore expert than I can probably prove me wrong.

In short, yeah, if some other schmuck tried to wave Sephiroth's sword around, it'd likely be a clumsy tool, or they'd fail to even be able to lift it.

 

[Blade]

I'd love to meet this "more educated lore expert" you hypothetically speak of.

It just irks me that they don't even use anything resembling real-world logic. I mean, yeah, I get it, it's "Fantasy", and all that... but some of it HAS to at least make sense for it to "look cool", right?

 

[Lestat]

If you apply real world logic to ff7 then you have more problems than just "how does sephiroth use his sword"
The game has never tried to tie in any individual character to a real world fighting style so it's not hard to jump that sephiroth just knows how to use his weapon.

As previously mentioned above if you take into consideration that physically sephiroth is more powerful than any other person on the planet its not exactly a hard jump to conclude that when he swings a sword he knows exactly how much force is needed for any individual battle. When you watch his fights across ffvii and even in kingdom hearts he is cold calculating and deliberate with his moves. He makes up for lightning fast speeds with the size of his sword and the fact that all he essentially needs is one swipe and he can cleave someone in two.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Ever since playing the Dissidia games and later Crisis Core I've begun to wonder a few things about Sephiroth's fighting style.

I know he uses a technique called Octaslash, and it's the same technique Zack uses, implying they both had similar training in SOLDIER, but beyond that I know next to nothing.

Funny thing about that: turns out Zack has a special ability (I'm not even sure if he realized it) to copy other people's techniques and even create new ones based on them. This entry from the Crisis Core Complete Guide talks about it:

Limit Breaks
When your spirit energy rises to its ultimate limit, for a short while it aligns with and emits from your body. Furthermore, Zack is unusual in that he can copy Limit Breaks, such as taking Aerith’s “Healing Wind” Limit Break from FFVII and turning it into his Limit Break “Healing Wave”. In the same way, Cloud takes his Limit Break “Meteor Rain” from the original Limit Break Zack created based on him called “Meteor Shot”.

It just irks me that they don't even use anything resembling real-world logic. I mean, yeah, I get it, it's "Fantasy", and all that... but some of it HAS to at least make sense for it to "look cool", right?

I wouldn't count on that. Remember the way the motorcycles were moving in "Advent Children"?

Sephiroth might as well be using an iron girder or a foam noodle, since he isn't using his Katana the way it was intended to be used.

That is a humorous but accurate way to sum it up. And I now want to see Seph wielding a pool noodle in "Dissidia NT."

 

[hian]

Sephiroth's basic stance in the actual game is actually a lazy version of a conventional Kenjutsu stance.
It goes by different names in various schools -
The most common one is kasumi no kamae, or as you can see below as is in the case of Katori Ryu, Te ura gasumi.

As for the way he fights in the compilation?
It's just flashy bullshit because it looks cool - because that's literally the only thing that was considered when making those scenes.
So you might say his swordsmanship, as least what little you see of it in the OG is legit. What you see of it in the compilation, is just "animu bullshit".

Cheers,

Resident Lifestream Martial artist

 

[JechtShotMK9]

As for the durability of his sword, in AC at least, it's pretty clear that it is an extension of himself.

In the other cases, I just assume that he's basically Trunks, and channels his chi through it.

 

[Arala]

Sephiroth's basic stance in the actual game is actually a lazy version of a conventional Kenjutsu stance.
It goes by different names in various schools -
The most common one is kasumi no kamae, or as you can see below as is in the case of Katori Ryu, Te ura gasumi.

As for the way he fights in the compilation?
It's just flashy bullshit because it looks cool - because that's literally the only thing that was considered when making those scenes.
So you might say his swordsmanship, as least what little you see of it in the OG is legit. What you see of it in the compilation, is just "animu bullshit".

Cheers,

Resident Lifestream Martial artist

Thanks, Hian. That was really interesting. I wonder whether they'll go for the legit swordsmanship (a bit like in the original game) or whether they'll go for the flashy nonsense (like in the compilation) in the remake?

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Thanks, Hian. That was really interesting. I wonder whether they'll go for the legit swordsmanship (a bit like in the original game) or whether they'll go for the flashy nonsense (like in the compilation) in the remake?

I assumed it'd be both. I'd bet on seeing more standard but capable swordsmanship from Sephiroth pre-Nibelheim like when he and Cloud are palling around in flashbacks. Once he becomes the full-time floating around entity, I expect we'll see more flashy Dissidia-style stuff.





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