Shin Megami Tensei series

Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
I just hit September. Anyone else notice how the dialog for everyone changes almost daily? That's very impressive. I don't recall that from the OG.
 

cold_spirit

he/him
AKA
Alex T
It's very impressive, and I love the feature that lets you know if there's new dialog.

In FES/Portable, most of the dorm dialog was combat orientated. It was how the game taught you a lot of the nuanced mechanics, like how bows have less accuracy, but a miss won't lead to fall down like a greatsword.

With Reload, since the combat was completely overhauled, I think all that became irrelevant, so they replaced it with actual story insights. Seems they were generous with it too!
 

Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
I feel like it's actually kind of a callback to Persona 2. In those games, the party dialogue constantly changed, and I found myself constantly talking to them. If they ever remake another Persona game, I really hope it's the Persona 2 duology.
 

Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
This probably seems like it's coming out of nowhere, but does anyone else feel that this (Persona) fandom has largely become aggressively disinterested in what these games are actually about, or in innovation for the series, in favor of memes and waifu shit, ever since Persona 5 came out? People get really mad when you talk about possibilities of future games that depart in any way from the format which I think has been followed fairly strictly for three games now and bordering on becoming stale if it's done again. Zero discussions about analytical psychology or the plots. Formulaic waifu trash culture is kind of a Reddit thing in general, but other fandoms do seem to have a stronger interest and curiosity in the actual stories and their longevity lol.

I think I just hate the prevailing opinions in this fandom in general. Like people begging for P4 to get remade which already stands up to modern gameplay and would be a pointless waste of resources, while having zero curiosity about P2.
 
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cold_spirit

he/him
AKA
Alex T
When I first beat P5 in 2017, I referred to it as Persona 4.5 to my friends because of how it didn't push the formula in any meaningful direction. Leading up to the release of P3R, I referred to it as Persona 3 Royal because of how tailored it was to the P5 audience. Innovation has absolutely been lacking for a very long time.

It's sad. Persona was an incredibly innovative series even before 3. With the original game, Atlus told a character-driven story to differentiate itself from SMT. And it wasn't a shallow effort. They dug deep into Jungian terminology to tell a story about the self, swapped demon classes with Tarot arcana to reflect the human consciousness, and incorporated a grid system into battle. With P2, their ambition grew so large that the story needed to be split into two parts.

And then came P3. At the time I remember people referring to it as Atlus's FF7. Innovation on top of innovation. A calendar system, anime cutscenes, AI controlled party members, and of course social links, which has spread like a wildfire to other RPGs. Social links will even appear in Metaphor Refantazio, Atlus's first new IP in over 10 years. P3 is arguably Atlus's most innovative title ever.

I think because of P3, and its follow-up P4, Atlus survived the PS3/360/Wii generation, which otherwise saw a lot of other RPG developers drown. It reached a lot of new players. Maybe too many. As we know from the LTD here, shipping will reign supreme, and that's exactly where Persona discussion went. The shipping war has been made all the worse because of social media, which rewards quick and reactionary takes.

Just look at what's on the Persona subreddit's front page today. Unfortunately, I don't see this changing anytime soon.

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Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
I liked P5 and I thought it was different enough to generate intrigue, but yeah, it was pushing it in my opinion. By "it," I mean in its reproduction of old concepts and gameplay that had already been done more than once.
Ryuji's cheap fake death
was when it really hit me that they would likely be serious about insulting my sensibilities in the future. There is something unsettling about a series that preaches nuance, truth, and depth, simultaneously trying to be mass produced.

Someone on that subreddit had said "it's not fair that young people would be deprived of new Personas." Have you ever heard of the concept of playing a timeless old game? I originally played FFVII 10 years after it came out. I really do not want to see the same formula for P6. I would like significant changes in setting and concepts. If it's another one of these mass produced top seller games, I'm out. Honestly I think it's rare for companies to retain or regain their artistry after they become big, so I often stay indie. I know I sound like an massive hipster right now, but I like my entertainment original and risky.

I like P3R because it's an enhancement of a game that was great that needed serious gameplay upgrades (not unlike FFVII) to be playable again. Unfortunately, I think I would enjoy remakes of 1 and 2 more than whatever new Persona game they come up with. It's also totally OK to let a series end naturally and come up with a new series, but $$$. I don't see the point of buying the same exact thing pretending to be different, with a different name over and over again the way some people do.
 
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cold_spirit

he/him
AKA
Alex T
was when it really hit me that they would likely be serious about insulting my sensibilities in the future.

I had a moment like this too. In 2015, P5 director Hashino told Game Informer that the cast of P5 "no longer has a place where they belong to in society". The game itself depicts them as having fallen through the cracks, ostracized by their peers and and sometimes even their government.

I find the execution of this idea laughable and ignorant on Atlus's part in retrospect. Just a reminder, P5's cast consists of... a supermodel, an art prodigy, a class president, the heir to a billion dollar corporation... all of whom are fair skinned and thin. How do these characters represent the down-trodden? What about having a LGBTQ+ character? A non-Japanese character dealing with racism? A character with a disability? A character who is plus sized? You know, the kind of people who actually feel like they don't belong?

Dealing with mortality and finding one's true self, the main themes of P3 and 4, are universal. They're distinctly human. As such, humanity manifesting Nyx to bring a peaceful death or manifesting Izanami to smother truth feels appropriate. I can actually imagine my deepest desires wanting that. In P5, the main theme is rebellion against those who abuse their power (often while wearing a smile). And to that end, the game presents a variety of real-world, modern scenarios.

But instead of doubling down and critiquing the structural burdens that keep individuals in line, P5 shifts blame to humanity itself, stating that they are the ones who manifested a god to control them. That explanation just doesn't cut it. There's nuances in today's world that the storytellers shy away from. People aren't oppressed because they want to be, their will is depleted because it's been squeezed out of them. And who is doing the squeezing? Certainly not some god behind the curtain. In the real world, it's other people directly. P5 sets the stage and is stylish while doing it, but it ultimately delivers a substance-less message.

So to have P5's cast, again consisting of a supermodel and corporation heir, as the vehicles meant to inspire us to upset the status quo just comes off as naive to me. You know those people that point to clearly political games and say they're apolitical? I feel like that crowd would love P5. And you know what? At times it feels like P5 is catering to them. P5 barks loud, but it doesn't bite. The storytellers are out of touch and lack perspective

I apologize, I'm going beyond your original point. I'll reel it in.

I really do not want to see the same formula for P6. I would like significant changes in setting and concepts. If it's ano

Twitter leaker Midori, who has an so far impeccable track record, recently posted that P6 will keep the high school setting. Sooo I think the calendar system will return for sure.
 
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Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
@cold_spirit I think you are on point about it being politically apolitical. I've never thought about it that way, but I also haven't played the game in 7 years. I feel like MC is the only character that actually fits the description (even though he is conventionally attractive and able bodied). I liked how they captured the suffocating feeling of being ostracized and bullied through this character - I'd never personally seen bullying and dogpiling portrayed accurately prior to this. Not so much for the other characters. It seems like the barrier to entry for modern characters in anything is that they must always be beautiful, thin, and not sick or disabled... Even in stories about being subversive. Even Wednesday Adams had to have a glow up apparently. Dark skinned characters in media also tend to be presented in a "perfect" package and cannot escape this when they are fortunate enough to be depicted. As for P5, I think there is some value in showing how some people with a lot of privilege still resent "the system" (like Sae), but that's not what they actually said they were going for. LGBT characters are also not unheard of in Persona, as there are two of them in P4, not including Chie's relative nonconformity, so I agree it would've made sense to have one in P5 in line with its supposed themes.

Different game, but regarding the beauty thing, I saw someone recently complain about how My Time at Portia has ugly character designs, when they really just look like (cartoon versions of) actual, flawed faces, not unlike designs you'd see in much older American games.

Twitter leaker Midori, who has an so far impeccable track record, recently posted that P6 will keep the high school setting. Sooo I think the calendar system will return for sure.

I don't mind the calendar system being repeated, since it is Persona after all, but another Japanese high school is just played out. For setting, they already did a mid-sized city, the boonies, and Tokyo, all in Japan. With the themes of death, identity, and rebellion, respectively. I suspect that the new game will be less than original, to put it lightly. I think they just need to let this series end if they have any self-respect, especially since there isn't really a centralized lore to expand on that is actually gluing these games together.

Also, it is sounding like P2 is getting the remaster treatment and P4 is getting a remake. This is so lazy. P2 with all else it has to offer will sit unplayable (fuck random encounters) to a modern audience, with slightly better graphics, while the game that already had a definitive, modern version, will get a remake as an easy cash grab. I honestly don't think I'd buy a P4 remake, or P6, unless they find a way to do something particularly incredible with them.

Saw some fan yesterday basically talking about how Jung's work was useless. I think I'm ready to be done with P3R and check out of the Persona fandom after that honestly.

Also, anyone have SMT recommendations they think I may like? I haven't actually ventured into those games because of analysis paralysis.
 
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Lulcielid

Eyes of the Lord
AKA
Lulcy
Also, anyone have SMT recommendations they think I may like? I haven't actually ventured into those games because of analysis paralysis.
Don't know what exactly are your preferences but this are good options:

Shin Megami Tensei III: Nocturne (PS2/4, Switch, Steam). Easily the most accessible SMT with the HD ports. I personally would pick the original PS2, not a fan of some of the visual changes in the HD version.

Shin Megami Tensei IV (3DS).

Devil Survivor: Overclocked (3DS).

Shin Megami Tensei: Strange Journey (DS).

Shin Megami Tensei: Digital Devil Saga duology (PS2)
 

Strangelove

AI Researcher
AKA
hitoshura
i am seconding strange journey (throwback to the style of smt1-2/if), devil survivor (tactical rpg), digital devil saga (more story-focused with a set cast of party members), and nocturne because it's one of my favourite games (i haven't played 4). also would add the devil summoner - kuzunoha raidou games because i also like those.

i still haven't played p5 (i missed the chance to play the royal when it was on game pass because i just assumed it would be there for a longer time, but i do have the original version from when it was part of that ps5 game collection), but i think you could do the 'fallen through the cracks of society' with characters like an art prodigy (the difficulty in making a living as an artist in a society where generating profit is prioritised) or a model (exploitation of workers in the industry that might be overshadowed by how glamorous it appears). but rich child of billionaire might not make the cut lol. introducing the star of p6, that billionaire's son who when viral a few years back trying to be a filmmaker. riveting stuff

maybe persona has suffered the same fate as fire emblem, where a new entry becomes wildly popular (3 for persona, awakening for fire emblem) and seems to take over the series. i haven't played fe either, but i think since awakening romance/~waifus~ seemed to grow in prominence and leave some older fans disappointed? it's perhaps inevitable that some people will feel that way when a series goes in a different direction like that, but it's also disappointing to see the creators (or corporate overlords) being adverse to change especially after seeing success by mixing things up.


in other news, i'm happy to see smt5 going to other platforms but also not 100% positive about it. for one, i keep seeing people talking negative about the quality of the original version's story so are you saying i have to play 40-80 hours of an unsatisfying story before possibly getting to an improved one lol (as i understand it you select a path which start the same then branches off but i am still going to want to see the original one to appreciate the differences)

and secondly, i just really don't want to buy the first release of an atlus game at full price now. if they're just going to release an expanded edition later. the last 3 persona games got new versions, strange journey got one, devil survivor, catherine. might as well wait and see if they release a better version later. it's not so bad if it's at least moving to a modern console i guess (strange journey and devil survivor going from ds to 3ds, catherine from ps3/360 to ps4/switch i think?). but still. square used to do this with their international versions but at least they had the decency to completely change the audio language and not give you an option to change it back. wait no. (nice to see the end of that)

on top of that, their dlc practices take the piss. if i look at the sales page on the playstation network i can count on seeing a lot of entries for atlus games. separate items for extra exp/money/resource drops, multiple costumes or resource packs. at least they go on sale fairly often but still.

i still plan on playing p3r for the nostalgia, but it's also annoying that there's now 4 versions of that game and i don't think you could call any single one a 'definitive' version. you can play the original and miss out on any additions. you could play fes and get the extra post-main game story. you might go for portable for the choice of male or female protagonists. or reload for modern quality of life stuff and updated graphics. but neither version has all of these additions or even most. portable at least has a modern port, but fes' story is stuck on the ps2. especially since we had nocturne hd recently, which had the content from the chronicles edition and the original maniacs with dante as dlc. if reload is going to only have the male protagonist like p3/fes, it could have at least had the fes story as well. or are they leaving that for a persona 3 deep overclocked reload the full body royal golden.


i looked up what kazuma kaneko had been up to since i don't think he has had much involvement in development at atlus since strange journey, and the last thing he had done is like. some illustrations for an nft thing. and they're not even that interesting. disappointment abounds.
 

cold_spirit

he/him
AKA
Alex T
@Rydeen, for SMT recommendations, if you want to play one right now, I'd say SMTIII Nocturne is a great starting point. It's available on modern platforms and still looms large in the western fandom as it was the first mainline SMT game we received.

If you can wait, SMTV Vengeance is releasing in June. V places great emphasis on exploration, greater than any previous SMT, but the story takes a hit. Vengeance looks to rectify this issue and make further improvements to the game's balancing. Really really excited for this one. SMTV and Elden Ring are the only games in the past five or so years that had me glued to my chair for 6+ hours at a time (very unhealthy, be sure to stretch and hydrate folks!) It was the exploration element in both that had me hooked. Such a joy to navigate and discover the maps.
 

Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
Spoiler tagging everything just in case.

So how did everyone feel about the ending this time?
Even though I knew from the start exactly what would happen, I was effected by it the same way I was the first time, to the point of actually feeling in touch with the bygone era when Anime Jesus and P4 changed the way I lived my life.

I'm not a staunch completionist, so I was fairly happy with my game file. I maxed out almost all the social links thanks to the prayer/dating URL. I believe this game is supposed to make you feel like you're always running out of time, and generally not being able to max out all the social links fits the theme. I completely missed student council girl and got up to 9 with student council boy, and also missed the champion runner boy. I was happy to max out the SEES links, especially Aigis.
I know she's an android, but I wish she were dateable, because the emotional intimacy between her and MC feels stronger than any of the other characters, and I think their character progression was really similar, actually.
I chose Mitsuru since she was my favorite in the original. Not all social links are created equally in Persona and people like to hate on the Suemitsu link - unfortunately I agree. I played as FemC originally so I never got him. That link was horribly paced and had too many loose ends. Kenji is one-dimensional AF. My non-SEES favorites were the elderly couple and Mutatsu just like during my FemC playthrough, as well as Yuko. I really loved the evening micro-events in this remake, especially since MaleC doesn't have social links with the male characters. These games absolutely hinge on being emotionally attached to your teammates.

As for crazy Personas, I made a Zouchouten with Getsu-ei and a social link boost and had him for like 4 months mid game. Seriously, he was an ATK beast on enemies with no weaknesses.
 

PrinnyWesker

Lv. 25 Adventurer
Just wondering, does anyone else feel like the calendar system becomes a slog in the last 1/4 of the games? Once you have your stats maxed and have done all the night time S-Links?

I'm sleeping day and night to advance the story rn and its killing me lol
 

Rydeen

In-KWEH-dible
Just wondering, does anyone else feel like the calendar system becomes a slog in the last 1/4 of the games? Once you have your stats maxed and have done all the night time S-Links?

I'm sleeping day and night to advance the story rn and its killing me lol
When I ran out of nighttime social links and no longer had need for stats, I just did the dating site to raise affection for the day links and did the evening pseudo events. I never didn't have anything to do during the day.
 
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