Should the FFVII remake be more PC

[clowd]

For example, should they delete the scene where young Tifa tells young Cloud she wants to experience being saved at least once?

Should they delete this dialogue? And so on

 

[Jason Tandro]

I would say there's a happy medium. I'm against altering a work because it might offend somebody (such is the nature of life; anything you do will offend somebody), but I would like if some of these characters could be explored more. Keep in the "offensive" stuff but in segments like the cross-dressing sequence, maybe explore the "Bro" etc etc.

 

[RedFFWolf]

I'm going to say "No, I would like to keep things as they are", simply because I like to think, for that moment, this is a piece of Tifa's character that was coerced from this particular situation, and the same for other moments and other characters.

Imperfections, insecurities, and not trying to be the perfect (21st century) role-model makes characters that bit more real (and interesting). You also have environments such as Corneo's perverted world, which isn't a place to hold back the lewdness.

However, I think the final product will end up coming across more PC than the original game anyway, sadly.

 

[Alex Strife]

Absolutely not.

I find political correctness for the sake of political correctness to be quite silly. Just as I find those who want abide by the polar opposite for its own sake quite dumb.

Trigger warning (I guess?): It's like those feminists who are so caught up in their own battle that even criticise those women who WANT to be housewives and all. So what? Just because you shouldn't be forced to be a damsel in distress, it means you CAN'T be one?

Silly people...

 

[Claymore]

This is one of those issues which really riles me up. It's like people are not even allowed to have those thoughts anymore. I get the equality issue but there is absolutely nothing wrong with someone wanting that wish (be it a guy or a girl). The whole PC thing can really get out of hand and ends up just seeming utterly ridiculous. I absolutely do not want anything like that in the game changed.

Edit: Alex said it better than I could, lol.

 

[Octo]

The stairs sequence: I somehow doubt that is going to be kept as is, I mean these days running up 30 odd flights of stairs is not anybodys idea of entertaining gameplay. So it might get turned into a cutscene, or have frequent fights or removed entirely. But if they did keep it in, they should change 'retard' to moron or idiot or something, because that could cause offence.

As for Tifa's desire to experience be rescued. Leave that in, shes a small town young girl at the time she says that, it's character development - and we see how when she grows up she can take care of herself, and doesn't remain a damsel (and even if she did I don't really think that would be a problem, there should be room for all character types and not just girls who can kick ass)

Same thing with Cid and Shera. You can't go changing plot points because they're uncomfortable. If you do that you might as well make Shinra a green energy company who never did anything bad to the planet

Clouds crossdressing. The situation is played for laughs - a macho soldier type man in a dress is funny - thats sort of the root of humor, a subversion of expectations. It's not the same as laughing at someone who is actually transexual. It's the difference between laughing at Caitlyn Jenner (to pick a recent example) and laughing at Terry Jones as Brian's Mother.

I think it speaks volumes that Cloud is still a much admired character - if anything Cloud gets lambasted for being emo more than he does for crossdressing - In fact I don't think I have ever seen anyone disparaging Cloud, or indeed any of the other characters involved, aside from Corneo and his lackeys.

Furthermore, it puts Cloud, and the player (this notional impressionable teenage boy that everyone is so concerned about) in the shoes of a woman being leered at by dangerous creepy men. I think theres something valuable in that. When Cloud throws off his dress and says:

"I ain't INTERESTED in a buncha scrubs like you!"

We all cheer him on, because those creeps are going to get what is coming to them. Anyone who reads that scene as those guys being somehow justified in their actions because Cloud mislead them....well people like that are already twisted beyond hope.

 

[clowd]

About removing the stairs sequence: off topic but Im surprised by how many people in this forum are suggesting gameplay elements like that be removed from the game or reduced to a cutscene. On the same note I read somewhere else on this forum somebody wanted the gameplay area of climbing the wreckage to the Shinra tower removed or turned into a cutscene. Guys, I got a feeling that such gameplay segments added up to make up a big part of what FFVII is. Theres already going to be hours upon hours of cutscenes. The game needs all the gameplay it can get. Timing your jump when climbing the wreckage or climbing all those stairs gives us the chance to actually play the game. Otherwise its just battle, watch cutscene. Battle, watch cutscene. Battle, watch cutscene.

Back on topic,

I think the whole Cloud cross dressing thing is a poke at transgender people. If we can laugh at Cloud for dressing up like a woman, then why cant we laugh at Caitlyn Jenner? Bruce Jenner was an olympic athlete who looks huge in the womens clothes he wears, so he fits as a subversion of expectations.

Well, I dont understand all the fuss about retarded and why its considered such a bad word. It should stay in the game for the simple fact that it is not PC. Just like how alot of the humor in the Epic Rap Battles of History series on youtube is not PC, as well as the routine of many comedians, thats what helps make it so funny.

I just think its kind of funny how society keeps deciding what is off limits and what is not. For example its commonly accepted for people to call Americans stupid and fat. Nobody cares in fact many believe thats the truth. But when somebody says a person or even an inanimate object is retarded, people jump up in arms that somebody might have been offended by simply hearing the word when it wasnt directed at a person or people.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The cross-dressing scene is iconic and has to stay. People will just have to deal with it. People who suggest that it is a deliberate attack on transgender people (and I don't mean you, Clowd. I've seen a lot of this argument on tumblr) are reading way more into it than was ever intended - and given that there are other transgender people in Wall Market, like the Beautiful Bro, we really can't say that this game is transphobic or promotes transphobia.

The question is, should fiction portray human beings as we are, or portray an idealized, PC version of what we should aspire to? I'm firmly in the former camp, and therefore have no problem with a Cid who abuses Shera and a Shera who puts up with it. He learns the error of ways in the course of the game. That's more important than presenting a bunch of characters who are already so perfect there's no room for growth.

 

[Octo]

I think the whole Cloud cross dressing thing is a poke at transgender people. If we can laugh at Cloud for dressing up like a woman, then why cant we laugh at Caitlyn Jenner? Bruce Jenner was an olympic athlete who looks huge in the womens clothes he wears, so he fits as a subversion of expectations.

Well, because Caitlyn Jenner is now a woman, not a man dressing as a woman. Laughing at her because she doesn't look however the hell people think a woman "should" look like - if they're 'too tall' or 'too fat/thin' is just being mean and shallow.(For the record I think she looks pretty good)

EDIT: And we're not really laughing at Cloud for dressing as a woman, thats not how the game frames it - we're laughing at his discomfort.

Also, in general I don't really think it's ok to laugh at anyone for how they look/dress - unless they're doing it for comic effect of course - eg Monty Python, Kenny Everett, Dame Edna etc.

Plus, in the game - nobody has a go at Cloud for crossdressing, except Corneos lackeys and we can't expect them to be fine upstanding citizens because they're the bad guys. At worst, Tifa asks him:
"Why are you dressed like that!? And what are you doing here!?" "Forget that, what happened to you after the fall!? Are you hurt!?"

So again, nobody really cares. Cloud is uncomfortable about it but thats because he's built up this macho 'cold-hearted mercenary' persona, and Aerith has forced him to put that aside in order to save Tifa - something that matters.

About removing the stairs sequence: off topic but Im surprised by how many people in this forum are suggesting gameplay elements like that be removed from the game or reduced to a cutscene. On the same note I read somewhere else on this forum somebody wanted the gameplay area of climbing the wreckage to the Shinra tower removed or turned into a cutscene. Guys, I got a feeling that such gameplay segments added up to make up a big part of what FFVII is. Theres already going to be hours upon hours of cutscenes. The game needs all the gameplay it can get. Timing your jump when climbing the wreckage or climbing all those stairs gives us the chance to actually play the game. Otherwise its just battle, watch cutscene. Battle, watch cutscene. Battle, watch cutscene.

I definitely dont want battle/cutscene/battle/cutscene rinse repeat to happen (and I definitely want the shinra debris climb to stay in because that creates atmosphere) I just don't think it would be very interesting if we're climbing stairs only with better 3D HD graphics, I can see SE looking at that and changing it, maybe they'll include fights or more of a stealth element. As it is it's pretty boring and it already is more or less a cutscene only with the additional pain in the arse of us having to press the D pad.

 

[Pixel]

The retard line is wrong, like a lot of it, including a lot of Barret's swearing.

ちょっと！ エンギでもないこと言わないの！
It's something like "Wait a sec! Don't say such dire/ominous things!"

I'd localise that to sound more like Tifa, So something like
"Hey! Stop being so damn dramatic!"

 

[Mayo Master]

IMO, political correctness is a sure way to make characters bland and a story watered-down.
I tend to view political correctness as the mutant brother of censorship, and it's uncalled for more often than not.
If someone were offended by the contents of FF7, I feel like the person would be actively looking for feeling offended.

I wouldn't mind the script to be significantly revised, only to improve the quality of the narrative, character development, etc. - regardless of PC.

 

[Sprites]

I don't see why anything should be completely cut out, tweaked maybe to suit the changes to the console but not entirely altered. I find the scene where Tifa asks Cloud to save her quite sweet. I know when I was a little girl I always wondered if I ever got in trouble would I be saved by a handsome Prince or something, it's a sweet notion and I think given Cloud and Tifas relationship as kids it works because Tifa starts to think more about Cloud to the point of developing feelings for him, so I like it a lot.

Climbing the stairs might be tedious but some of that dialogue is gold I usually take the stairs for the dialogue alone, Barrett worrying climbing all those stairs are gonna kill him and he won't see Marlene again to that wonderful comedy moment where Tifa is standing higher up on the stairs and realised that the boys can see up her skirt, it's hilarious I'd be very disappointed if they didn't include that stuff.

Cross dressing Cloud scenes are a must, I can't wait for him to ask awkwardly for the Honey Bees to put makeup on him.

The golden wire of hope scene could be made more intricate, more challenging, more jumps timed, pieces of collapsing debris if anything you could be expanded that rather than make it into a cutscene.

 

[Alice]

I remember playing the FFVII fan re-translation and Tifa doesn't call Barret a retard at all in that. I don't remember what she says but I remember thinking that it felt far more tame. Assuming that re-translation is as faithful as it says, I think some content we suspect could be removed might not be included for reasons of being faithful to the Japanese script as opposed to the English translation. In that sense, it's not really cutting content. Maybe they'll embrace stuff from the English, though. I wouldn't be surprised, but only time will tell.

All I know is I'd get a laugh out of "this guy are sick" and other such lines being voiced, even if it's just unused audio hidden away somewhere, haha.

 

[Pixel]

I remember playing the FFVII fan re-translation and Tifa doesn't call Barret a retard at all in that. I don't remember what she says but I remember thinking that it felt far more tame. Assuming that re-translation is as faithful as it says, I think some content we suspect could be removed might not be included for reasons of being faithful to the Japanese script as opposed to the English translation. In that sense, it's not really cutting content. Maybe they'll embrace stuff from the English, though. I wouldn't be surprised, but only time will tell.

All I know is I'd get a laugh out of "this guy are sick" and other such lines being voiced, even if it's just unused audio hidden away somewhere, haha.

This fan "translation"?
https://youtu.be/tVuNigFiLPU?t=1h14m22s

It's garbage

 

[Ite]

Cloud is the only person uncomfortable in the cross dressing scene. Notice that no one in Wall Market judges him for it. In fact, to them, it's totally normal, and Big Bro (while he seems confusing from a cis perspective) is a daunting figure in Sector 6, with contacts everywhere and devoted followers, even among the manliest of macho men.

 

[Starling]

The whole point of the stairs sequence was to give a fight free option. They can't add fights to it. Considering Barret's complaints, the time it takes to repeatedly run up the steps makes sense. They could cut out the transitions between flights but have Barret and Tifa wait for you at set points if you're behind them.

The retard thing is considered offensive because it's tied to a history of people thinking of autistic people as less than average humans, wanting them sterilized and generally not treating them like human beings. It's preferable that people stop using the term but its use in older times should still be acknowledged. In my opinion, works of fiction should be free to show that characters aren't always politically correct, just as real people aren't. However, the political incorrectness shouldn't be played as right, even if it isn't played as wrong. Making everyone who's politically incorrect an unambiguously bad person isn't really the way to go either.

 

[Octo]

The retard thing is considered offensive because it's tied to a history of people thinking of autistic people as less than average humans,

Not just autistic, but a whole range of mental and physical disability.
I remember when I was at school, it was spaz or spastic or mong - and it was always directed at any kids that were different/unpopular (like me ) Retard seemed to come much later, probably through the influence of american television. But it was a while before I learned what it actually meant.

 

[Starling]

The specific term retard is short for mentally retarded, which is usually meant in relation to autism. I think spaz was more about seizures and hyperactivity. Regardless, ableism has been a pretty big social issue. I've hear the mongol thing in relation to Down's syndrome but never applied to someone who wasn't. That was more from my parents' or grandparents' generations though.

 

[Theozilla]

The retard line is wrong, like a lot of it, including a lot of Barret's swearing.

ちょっと！ エンギでもないこと言わないの！
It's something like "Wait a sec! Don't say such dire things!"

I'd localise that to sound more like Tifa, So something like
"Hey! Don't you dare say that!"

Yeah, even if hypothetically there was absolutely zero changes in content (there's likely going to be at least a few changes) just having a better translated/localized script will likely address/fix a lot of the issues from the OG.

 

[Interslicery]

Cloud is the only person uncomfortable in the cross dressing scene. Notice that no one in Wall Market judges him for it. In fact, to them, it's totally normal, and Big Bro (while he seems confusing from a cis perspective) is a daunting figure in Sector 6, with contacts everywhere and devoted followers, even among the manliest of macho men.

Even the tailor who makes the dress for Cloud is depressed, disillusioned, etc. But making dresses for men gives him new life and motivation. It's never treated as a bad thing.

 

[ForceStealer]

The staircase climb wasn't "fun gameplay," but it was a kind of a joke in and of itself. The whole time you're thinking "they're not actually going to make me go up 59 flights of stairs, are they? ...Yup."

The retard line is wrong, like a lot of it, including a lot of Barret's swearing.

ちょっと！ エンギでもないこと言わないの！
It's something like "Wait a sec! Don't say such dire things!"

I'd localise that to sound more like Tifa, So something like
"Hey! Don't you dare say that!"

Yeah, but...that's a much more boring line. I'm not saying you have to keep retard, but I prefer that she chide him for saying something stupid then acting like he's actually going to make it an endless staircase by suggesting it. And, even then, Tifa's been living in the slums for awhile by this point, so I could see her picking up some harsher, un-PC language when annoyed. But I know that's putting more thought into it than the localizers probably did.
Same goes for Barret's swearing. Japanese doesn't even really have swearing, so you would lose it all in a direct translation.

 

[Starling]

Sometimes localizations change things in a way that's so iconic it's kept. For example, Vegeta's "It's over nine thousand!" The thing to keep in mind with translations, is that you can't just give the literal meaning of the sentence. You also have to account for culture and multiple meanings of particular words, as well as make sure the end result flows well as a sentence. From Japanese to English, Tifa would be better off saying something around the lines of quit being an idiot than she would saying he shouldn't overreact, as it makes more sense when conveying the level of annoyance Tifa probably has towards Barret at that point.

 

[OneThousandCuts]

I don't have much to add that hasn't already been said, but with a dystopian world like that of FFVII's, too much concern with political correctness has the potential to ruin the characters if it's allowed to run amok.

People sometimes say or do unintelligent, rough, insensitive, or uninformed things. Sometimes it's malicious, and sometimes it's not. That's just human nature, and to censor the reality of human nature makes for a boring, unbelievable story. One of the things that made me fall so very much in love with FFVII to begin with was its brutal honesty on that subject, and to take that away...that would just make my stomach turn.

 

[Pixel]

Well if you wanted to go harsher, something like "Stop being such a drama queen" or "Stop being so dramatic" would work better. Calling a character a retard is taking too much liberty with the script. It changes the characterisation

 

[Cat on Mars]

Talking about what's PC in North America or Europe in regards to a Japanese game always strikes me as odd. What westerners might consider offensive isn't a Japanese developer's concern... never was. Remember the controversy over RE5, some years ago?

Spoiler

In case you don't: http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2010-08-25-capcom-aiming-to-avoid-future-controversy

Now, if we're talking about localization, that's a whole different thing. I'll take a faithful traslation over keeping one of the 90's more overused words any day.

Tl, dr; I don't get the question.