Should the Turks be more Sympathetic?

[CameoAmalthea]

In Advent Children the Turks ally with the main characters against the Remnants and the dynamic between everyone is much friendlier than in the OG where the Turks essentially the Team Rocket of FFVII.

For example, when Reno calls Tifa in AC she laughs like she's talking to an old friend- which can be kind of bizarre considering Reno is the one who dropped the Sector 7 Plate.

Over all, the compilation shows the Turks as more sympathetic. In Crisis Core they're you allies, in Before Crisis they're the protagonists, and in Advent Children they're friendly with their former enemies and very much in hero territory. Since the Remake will be part of the compilation and be made with this new characterization in existence would it make sense if the Turks were more sympathetic.

Perhaps if later in the game, after the events in Wutai and Tseng's death you learn - maybe from Reeve is allied with the Turks and takes responsibility for the dropping of the plate in Case of Denzel regardless of his lack of involvement , that the Turks had little choice or something like this. If they hadn't done it they would have been killed and would have been carried out - I don't know - something to make the forgiveness/friendliness we see in AC make more sense as well as bring the bad guy Turks we see at the beginning of the game with the Good Guy Turks we see in Crisis Core and Before Crisis (although even then they're still morally grey).

I'm finding it hard to imagine reconciling the lighter softer Turks we get in AC with the OG, or imagining how Tifa and other others would get to the point they'd be on friendly terms.

 

[Clement Rage]

No. Detailed thoughts later, a bit pressed for time at the mo.

 

[Roger]

No. That Tifa would be this friendly to Reno makes little sense, yes. Not to mention Cloud letting the people that oprhaned Denzel talk **** about how well he takes care of him, but the remake shouldn't have to cover up the Compilations mistakes.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

I guess I'm more of a compilation fan and would rather see a remake bring the OG story in line with compilation rather than just ignore it.

 

[Roger]

I guess I'm more of a compilation fan and would rather see a remake bring the OG story in line with compilation rather than just ignore it.

There's nothing to ignore. They still did these things in the Compilation and the idea that they didn't have a choice is ridiculous. The whole reason the plate needed to be dropped in the first place is because Shinra Inc. CAN'T track down six people in their own city. To begin with, the people that Shinra would turn too for tracking someone on the run down and silencing them ARE the Turks. Ergo, they can leave Shinra whenever they want too and they'd almost certainly get away with it. They stay and follow orders out of genuine loyalty, which is the only way to explain their behaviour in Advent Children too. Even if it doesn't explain Tifa and Cloud's.

 

[Octo]

No. That Tifa would be this friendly to Reno makes little sense, yes. Not to mention Cloud letting the people that oprhaned Denzel talk **** about how well he takes care of him, but the remake shouldn't have to cover up the Compilations mistakes.

I think that one passed me by but yeah, thats pretty bad writing.

I'd rather they kept them like they were in the OG. Plus, if *if* they're going to remake Before Crisis (given that it wasn't released outside of Japan) then they could just do that and make it, y'know, not suck balls quite so much as it did.

The more I think about the plot of that game the more embarrassing it is, that they had to make 'old' Avalanche such bad guys and the Turks glorified cub scouts.

I guess theres nothing that could be done about AC though.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

Before Crisis opens with AVALANCHE attempting to blow up a reactor - just like in the original game - but instead of playing as the terrorists you play as a Turk trying to stop it - with emphasis that people will die if the reactor is destroyed. The Turks still do defend Shinra from AVALANCHE when Shinra is destroying the planet - AND do other morally reprehensible things like kidnapping people who are forcibly recruited into SOLDIER.

The difference is the levels AVALANCHE is willing to go to in order to win - such a hijacking the Junon Canon and destroying Midgar - massive civilian casualties - versus less civilian casualties in just targeting the reactors. Eventually Fuhito went over the deep end and decided humanity needed to be destroyed to protect the planet but even then it's an interesting discussion about what makes a group or a cause good or bad.

I like that in Novellas we get to see Barret grappling over the deaths he's responsible for from the Reactor bombings. The over all question of how far are you willing to go for a cause and how far is too far.

I really like the moral ambiguity of the OG in terms of playing as a terrorist group - they're rebels against a bad regime that is killing the planet and clearly Shinra is evil in how it responds - but they're still willing to kill to bring change. I liked that BC made you look at AVALANCHE from the other side of the coin - people like Elfe and Shears were very sympathetic heroic people but so were the player Turks.

The reason they stay in Advent Children is loyalty to Rufus - this is specifically stated in Case of Shinra. Rufus saved their lives at the end of BC - so they've sworn to stay by him. I don't think they have any loyalty to President Shinra in particular since he was going to have them all executed - and I don't think they were enthusiastic about dropping the plate. But had they refused to do it they would have been killed - and since this comes like right after they were about to be executed for treason I'm assuming they were being watched pretty carefully. I find that relevant.

I don't want them to be innocent in this. I like the idea that no one is innocent, but no one is a evil either (except President Shinra and the execs who supported this).

 

[55-]

I think the fact that the Turks are the most likable murderers you'll ever meet is absolutely genius and I would be incredibly disappointed if they tried to take away that ambiguity.

I remember watching Reno drop Don Corneo off Da Chao Scar-to-Mufasa style and being like "Oh yeah. . . Reno kills people. I totally forgot."

Tseng is one of the most interesting characters to me. I can't think of any other characters like him. I'm always like gawwwd, idk how to feel about u Tseng. Sometimes he's an incredibly sympathetic guy and you think you get the guy and then he's (BC spoiler)

Spoiler

shooting and killing the people you spent the whole game trying to save,

and you're like WTF TSENG.

Spoiler

(BTW I outright reject to the scene after the credits. I will not let it devalue how genius I thought that plot twist was.)

I remember replaying FFVII and being reminded that Tseng's introduction in the game involves him slapping Aeris and spouting off some pretty standard asshole villain lines. That's the way his character is introduced. And then you find out that couldn't have been easy for him to do. And that endears you to him.

I'm not surprised at all that Tifa would talk to Reno like a friend. That's how we all feel about the Turk's, right? They've done some horrible things, but they're damn likable.

A big part of the reason why I connected so strongly with the Kids are Alright - or at least the amount of it I've been capable of reading - is because, well. First off, I feel like, all the pieces of the compilation present very different feeling representations of the world of the narrative based on the perspective through which you're seeing the story. In DoC, everyone talks like Vincent, it's always night time, everything is very large and dramatic. In CC, I thought the music felt very different than in FFVII, but I thought it suited Zack very well. It's electric guitars and action, then it's soft and sad. Perfect for an aspiring hero, who ain't too man to openly sob when his friend dies. So anyway, I ended up feeling like Evan's FFVII was my FFVII. It really resonated with me as, the world through Evan's eyes was the way I was seeing it all along.
Contributing to that feeling for me, was the character descriptions.
A quote from Kyrie, RE the Turks: "They laugh, and seem charming, even kind, but they’re not normal people. Those were the eyes of people who always fight. Those were the hands of killers."
I thought that was an amazing description. That was the kind of shit I've been trying to say about the Turks for years.

So yeah, I'd be incredibly disappointed if they tried to make the Turks more likable by taking out the whole murderers part, but I don't think that's gonna happen.

Reading the Kids are Alright made me feel like Nojima may have been responsible for whatever tiny imperceptible thing in FFVII that made me connect more hardcore with the franchise than I have any other story. I trust him immensely.

 

[Channy]

Not even just the Turks but even Rufus was a little soft towards Cloud during their conversation. Definitely not the same guy who was ready to kill him at the top of the Shinra building.

The Turks and Shinra definitely need to bring back the badassery.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

Oh I'd definitely still have them be killers. I don't really like fanfic that tries to white wash their actions. I like things to stay in shades of grey, no black or white.

I think Rufus was great in AC. He's manipulative. In AC he needs Cloud and says what he needs to in order to get Cloud on his side. In the OG he has no reason not to shoot this guy.

 

[55-]

I think Rufus was great in AC. He's manipulative. In AC he needs Cloud and says what he needs to in order to get Cloud on his side. In the OG he has no reason not to shoot this guy.

Yooo Rufus is my fave let's talk about him forever.

What I've always loved about Rufus is what's most important to him is whatever best serves his needs. Sometimes this aligns with our goals, and he's wrecking Sapphire Weapon, sometimes this stands in the face of our goals, and he's trying to execute Tifa and Barret on live TV.

He exists in a grey zone, and he's hard to pin down. It's hard to see him as a threat post-FFVII, because he's so fixated on the idea of associating the Shinra name with good things that all he's doing, as far as we know, are things that we want/need done.

Is he just doing that for personal gain? Did the events of Case of Shinra humble him and make him a better guy? More concerned about the effect he's having on the planet? Reeve seems to think so in DoC, but Reeve's a sweetheart, so maybe he's projecting.

When I was playing these games for the first time, (like 9 years ago, I was late to the FFVII party), I was super into Rufus because I was fascinated with the idea of manipulation and the evil businessman trope. I thought for sure everything he does ever in the compilation was part of an elaborate ruse for personal gain, and I was like, Reeve bby u better be careful, we don't ACTUALLY know why Rufus is giving the WRO donations, but there's gotta be an ulterior motive. It ain't to give the Shinra a good name, he's doing it anonymously.
Nowadays I really don't know though. Maybe he is doing it in an effort to do what he can to repair the world his dumb father damaged.

Rufus is a beautiful mystery and I appreciate that ambiguity.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

I'd assume Rufus has some level of control over the WRO even just advisory - just not publicly since it wouldn't go over well since he's not popular since all the blame for what happened landed on him. Or else he just feels he has a responsibility to the world since he was raised to rule it. Shinra fell down around him almost as soon as he got it, but he still has a need to impact the flow of history.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

FWIW, I think BC presented the Turks sympathetically because the story was told from their viewpoint. However, I also think the game was trying to convey that the initial idealism of the young Turks was gradually eroded as they became more and more conscious of what an amoral, self-serving organization Shinra was, and that gradually their loyalty ceased to be loyalty to the company and became an entirely personal loyalty to Veld, Tseng and Rufus, as well as a personal mission against Avalanche Mark I.

In the OG the Turks (and Rufus) are seen from Avalanche's point of view and that's how it should stay. They may not be absolutely evil, and they all have redeeming qualities, but they are definitely not the good guys. I would hate to see Square Enix change this.

The dropping of Sector Seven is just a fictional version of those many real-life situations where you have to ask where the moral responsibility lies: with the man who gave the order to commit an atrocity, or with the person who fulfilled his or her duty by carrying the order out. Most of us like to think that we could never be complicit in an atrocity, but psychology and history both show us that almost anyone can and will commit atrocities given the right combination of circumstances, which means that, far from being the embodiment of evil, Reno is just an ordinary guy. He epitomizes what Hannah Arendt called "the banality of evil": evil that takes days off, evil that likes to enjoy a beer and a bit of holiday time with its mates, evil that doesn't believe in working too hard; evil that went to all the trouble of teaming up with Avalanche to hunt down Don Corneo "because it's our job".

 

[Dragonslayer Ornstein]

boom clap, boom boom boom clap -

I can't see that sound fitting if they don't bop people.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

You know, I think what I'd really like would be more On The Way To A Smile adaptions and interquels explaining how everyone comes to terms with each other- because I just never got the jump from OG to how friendly Tifa is in game. I mean - at the end of the game you have the option not to fight the Turks if you teamed up in Wutai - but I guess I never got not hating them and I'd like it spelled out more.

I mean, maybe this means I'm not a nice person but like when they come upon Tseng bleeding to death outside the temple of the ancients, if it were me, seeing what they'd seen - part of me would want to just kick him while he's down - preferably somewhere painful.

 

[Starling]

Maybe it just wasn't worth holding a grudge against them when everyone who was alive by the end of the OG was stuck having to work together to rebuild some semblance of infrastructure and minimize deaths from the aftereffects. If you were willing to help, then that was enough to have a second chance and try to make up for your mistakes as best you could. After the OG, everyone is left to face the consequences of their actions, including Barret and Tifa.

 

[CameoAmalthea]

True - I guess what I'd like is to see more of the On The Way To A Smile Novellas adapted so we can see everyone coping afterwards (and so I can cry over them)

 

[Splintered]

Twenty page essay to follow soon

 

[Still Unnamed]

Only if it helps them accomplish their mission.

 

[Clement Rage]

In Advent Children the Turks ally with the main characters against the Remnants and the dynamic between everyone is much friendlier than in the OG where the Turks essentially the Team Rocket of FFVII.

For example, when Reno calls Tifa in AC she laughs like she's talking to an old friend- which can be kind of bizarre considering Reno is the one who dropped the Sector 7 Plate.

Over all, the compilation shows the Turks as more sympathetic. In Crisis Core they're you allies, in Before Crisis they're the protagonists, and in Advent Children they're friendly with their former enemies and very much in hero territory. Since the Remake will be part of the compilation and be made with this new characterization in existence would it make sense if the Turks were more sympathetic.

Perhaps if later in the game, after the events in Wutai and Tseng's death you learn - maybe from Reeve is allied with the Turks and takes responsibility for the dropping of the plate in Case of Denzel regardless of his lack of involvement , that the Turks had little choice or something like this. If they hadn't done it they would have been killed and would have been carried out - I don't know - something to make the forgiveness/friendliness we see in AC make more sense as well as bring the bad guy Turks we see at the beginning of the game with the Good Guy Turks we see in Crisis Core and Before Crisis (although even then they're still morally grey).

I'm finding it hard to imagine reconciling the lighter softer Turks we get in AC with the OG, or imagining how Tifa and other others would get to the point they'd be on friendly terms.

You are giving a lot of weight to that one overly perky greeting. I wouldn't go so far as to call them friends. The only other thing she says to them is "Did you find them?" Which is all business.

Now, on the other hand, Cloud's interaction with Rufus and the gang is just short of hostile. Rufus tries to spin him a sad story, and Cloud is having none of it. When he threatens to leave, Rufus has to work really hard to keep him in the room, and ultimately fails to get him on his side.

Vincent saves Tseng and Elena, but despite the fact that they were 'brutally tortured', his opinion is that 'they had it coming'. They're not suddenly best friends.

Worth noting is that the reason Cloud gets attacked by the remnants is that Rufus told them he had JENOVA's head. Without giving him any warning. (And no, 'i've got work for you' is not the same thing as 'three Sephiroth remnants are going to try to kill you')

As for case of Shinra, Elena's loyalty is to Tseng, not Rufus, Rude explains his motivations as just not knowing how to do anything else. Reno says something ambiguous about regrets.

And you're kinda pulling the fact that they had no choice and would have been killed out of nowhere, as per this
post of mine

Hijacking it is! Make that thread if you want, I'll be there.

We see how powerless Reeve is in disc two. All it takes is one word from Heidegger and soldiers march in and take him away. And all he did was get a bit mouthy. Reeve's actions are certainly not equivalent.

The Turks have far, far more options. They have the skills to disappear (shown in game), have a bunch of blackmail material (shown in game), are good at wriggling out of orders (shown in game), and often don't get punished for directly defying orders (shown in game). They're not willing to give up about two hours of vacation time in Wutai, and as a direct result, soldiers die. They had choices.

The dropping of Sector Seven is just a fictional version of those many real-life situations where you have to ask where the moral responsibility lies: with the man who gave the order to commit an atrocity, or with the person who fulfilled his or her duty by carrying the order out

Why not both?

 

[Octo]

This pretty much sums up my feelings on the 'grey morality' of Shinra/Turks

Like, in BC it wasn't like they had Avalanche doing the same kind of stuff Barret and Co were doing, they went out of their way to make Avalanche bad bad and not just from the Turks pov - all those Ravens and stuff.

I'm sure Tifa and Barret do carry guilt, but I don't like the idea that their crimes and Shinra's cancel each other out. And it's not as if under Shinra - who own the news media and the police/military, pretty much everything - that any kind of reasonable peaceful protest would be allowed or even make a dent.

Sure the Turks are not 100% evil, but I wouldn't call it a grey area, unless it's a very very very very very very dark grey

 

[CameoAmalthea]

Perhaps I am reading too much into the greeting - but it still seems weird that she's laughing when she answers the phone rather than 'why the hell are you calling me or nearly hanging up"

But then maybe I'd be more keen to hold a grudge.

As for case of Shinra, Elena's loyalty is to Tseng, not Rufus, Rude explains his motivations as just not knowing how to do anything else. Reno says something ambiguous about regrets.

I was referring to this line:

"After the incident, President Shinra and the executives ordered the Turks to be disbanded and killed but rescuing them from such a grave situation was Rufus who was the Vice President at the time. Rufus was their patron and now that Reno has helped secure his safety and reunited with the colleagues who he never thought he would see again, Reno was glad that he will have no regrets to leave behind any more"

Which seemed to indicate, at least Reno, has a need to pay back Rufus/look out for him.

So my interpretation was that at the time of the plate drop they weren't particularly loyal to President Shinra or the company - but stayed primarily because they owed Rufus.

I just don't see Sector 7 as mindless loyalty to the company or an order that could have been refused. More like an impossible situation -

I guess for me - it seems that someone who does and says what Reno does when the plate is dropped, should be someone we get to kill violently later in the game.

But maybe I'm more keen on black and white thinking - either someone has a reason to be forgiven or should be punished. And we know the Turks aren't wholly evil.

I don't think BC AVALANCHE was evil either. I think Elfe was a hero - and most of the fighters were justified because Shinra had destroyed their life and would have destroyed the planet. However, they crossed the line by becoming like Shinra in order to fight it - making Ravens to counter SOLDIER. The idea that if you adopt you enemies tactics you can become just as bad as they are and to beat Shinra the original AVALANCHE became just as willing to sacrifice lives and experiment on innocent people.

I the message is no one is truly evil - everyone thinks they're doing the right thing. The BC Turks learn Shinra is more corrupt/not worth fighting for - and Shears turns on Fuhito when he tries to destroy the world because it's too far.

I like the idea that they're all fighters caught in a war - convinced what they're doing is right. Which is not to say that AVALANCHE 2.0 is as bad as Shinra - but I don't think the Turks are total monsters - which is something I'd like to see in the text of the game itself.

Because, as stated, I'm perhaps too black and white in my thinking and think in a narrative people who do monstrous things are either monsters who we should get to kill or have a reason we should forgive them which is revealed.

 

[Knuxson]

Regarding Tifa's behavior when talking to Reno in AC, it is a little weird, and probably is at least somewhat because of how popular the Turks are as characters. However, in the OG, after the sector 7 event, the Turks are shown in a more positive light, such as at Gongaga, Wutai, and later at the return to Midgar where they begrudgingly fight you, or you choose to not fight them. Therefore, I think with the passage of time it makes sense that Tifa doesn't outright hate him and tell him off when he calls. However, at the same time, I think it should have been more of a "we can coexist" kind of attitude.

Also, it could be that Tifa, and Barret, regret the lives they took as part of AVALANCHE, and don't see the Turks as being all that much worse. Still, it shouldn't come across as chummy as it did.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

I think it's a lot easier to write off Tifa's giggle in ACC as a mistake on the part of the director*, rather than try to integrate it into the canon of Avalanche's relationship with the Turks. That said, she'd likely be more willing than Cloud or Barret to let bygones be bygones, since for her Sephiroth, not the Turks, is the face of Shinra's evil. Also, Rude and Reno did help Avalanche rescue Yuffie, and kept their word by not trying to fight Cloud and Co even when ordered to do so.

*Tifa isn't a giggly sort of woman anyway. Everything about that scene is totally out of character for her, especially since she was preoccupied with worrying about Cloud just moments before she answered the phone. I think the giggle scene was put into the movie not because it's true to Tifa's character, but so all the fangirls would squee and cry "Ooo, she must be talking to Reno!"

PS That video is perfect! "Are we the baddies"?

 

[Clement Rage]

They had me at the 'mechanisation of agriculture' joke. Must look them up.

Agreed. The line works, but I reckon the writer was expecting her to put a bit more bite into it. In universe, maybe she's too far into 'the customer is always right' mode. Running a bar, you'd have to be able to deal with some complete douches with a straight face.

I dunno, Cloud was just passing through, but that was Tifa's bar, she's lived there a while, she'd know people. It's the second time Shinra's destroyed her home, I don't see her letting it pass too easily.

"After the incident, President Shinra and the executives ordered the Turks to be disbanded and killed but rescuing them from such a grave situation was Rufus who was the Vice President at the time. Rufus was their patron and now that Reno has helped secure his safety and reunited with the colleagues who he never thought he would see again, Reno was glad that he will have no regrets to leave behind any more"

Hmm, that line could be interpreted as undying loyalty, but it could also be interpreted as a 'now we're even' type of situation.