So where do we stand on the big remake mystery now?

What is going on with Zack?

  • He's in an alternate timeline, and we'll follow his adventures there, similar to a Laguna approach.

    Votes: 9 18.0%
  • He's in an alternate timeline, and eventually he will find a way to cross over to the main one.

    Votes: 12 24.0%
  • He's dead and in the lifestream, shown by the constant pure white backgrounds.

    Votes: 6 12.0%
  • He's in the main timeline with Cloud and co!

    Votes: 22 44.0%
  • He's in the main timeline but he's a ghost, that is why no one in the church reacts to him.

    Votes: 1 2.0%

  • Total voters
    50

Roundhouse

Pro Adventurer
A certain character returned at the end of p1, as we all know -- the fan favourite, Zack.

After Intermission, and now the trailer for REBIRTH, combined with all the time to think and speculate with others, where do you stand on his return now? I've included the most popular theories in the poll, along with popular reasoning for them.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Not sure what would cause a change in opinion thus far. However I will say I think he's definitely in an alternate timeline given the fact he has his own version of Cloud, his own Buster Sword, a different version of Stamp, and he's shown doing things in the past that are completely paradoxical and contrary to the past that matches with Cloud in FFVII. Namely...Living and keeping the Buster Sword :monster:

Zack's presence is going to eventually be known in some form or fashion. Either he'll appear in the Northern Crater thanks to Sephiroth revealing his existence as part of his effort to break Cloud down, or he'll be present in the final battle. But he's a Chekov's Gun; something major is going to happen with him. Something is going to happen, and I think it'll play into Cloud's fractured psyche and identity. I don't think he's going to "join the party," replace Cloud, derail the original story or anything weird like that. But his presence will be felt and used in some way.
 
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Tetsujin

he/they
AKA
Tets
By the time we see him at the church at the end of Intermission, I'm fairly certain he's in the regular timeline.

I think the singularity exploding caused some timey wimey shenanigans causing him to gradually cross over on his way to Midgar to the point of when the singularity was originally created (aka a different timeline at a point that is 3 months ahead) and that he isn't really aware of it happening. I also think Cloud isn't gonna cross over and when he leaves the church to look for Aerith he's gonna be asking where he's parked his Cloud because he could swear he was right there :flipmonster:

Why only Zack? Who knows, but the shockwave of the singularity sure knocked him on his ass and seemed to leave Midgar and its citizens itself unaffected so he's a special boy for pLot rEasOns or something :monster:
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
As soon as we see Stamp again in the same scene/location/etc of Cloud and the others, we will know for certain where Zack is and what we're dealing with. If it's the same Beagle Stamp that existed before, it'll be certain Zack is somewhere else.

If it's not, then there you go. Stamp is a purposeful clue.
 

cold_spirit

he/him
AKA
Alex T
I'm all in on alternate timeline / universe and believe this will impact the party's journey in a big way. Previously wrote about it at length here. Reposting my theory below for good measure.

  1. The Beagle and Terrier universes exist as separate realities at different points in time (i.e., December 0007 in Beagle occurs simultaneously with September 0007 in Terrier). Small variations exist between the universes, such as Stamp's breed.

  2. In the Beagle universe, Zack dies in a last stand against the Shinra army.

  3. In the Beagle universe, an unspecified event occurs involving Aerith and a mysterious Sephiroth. This event threatens Aerith’s life/continuity. The planet activates the Whispers to intervene and restrain the mysterious Sephiroth.

    As a direct result, Aerith receives memories of another universe and the ability to transfer these memories to others. The Whispers begin to actively monitor the situation and intervene to maintain continuity. Additionally, Aerith loses her ability to commune with the planet and is no longer able to hear the voices of the lifestream in her garden.

  4. In the Beagle universe, the events of Final Fantasy VII Remake unfold. This culminates with the party fighting Whisper Harbinger and Sephiroth inside the Singularity. At the same time in the Terrier universe, Zack fights against the Shinra army. Whispers are present at this fight to ensure Zack is killed.

    With the defeat of Whisper Harbinger, Zack survives in the Terrier universe. However, this also releases the mysterious Sephiroth from the Whisper’s restraint.

  5. The mysterious Sephiroth pulls Cloud to the Edge of Creation and speaks of a great joining and ultimate end that will come to themselves and the planet. He offers his hand in allyship, but Cloud refuses. After a short battle, the mysterious Sephiroth leaves Cloud with a warning. Considering his knowledge and demeanor, it would appear the mysterious Sephiroth is from another universe altogether. A universe where the planet has already met its ultimate end.

  6. In the Terrier universe, the unspecified event involving Aerith and the mysterious Sephiroth is allowed to unfold now that the Whispers no longer exist to intervene. Afterwards, the slum community gathers at Aerith's church to mourn.

  7. In the Beagle universe, the party arrives at Kalm. At the same time in the Terrier universe, Zack arrives at Aerith's church.
Note: I don’t believe Remake is a time travel story. It’s a multiverse, akin to the Spider-Verse. Multiple realities are occurring simultaneously and characters/memories are jumping between them. Aerith does not “see the future” nor does the party “change the past” to save Zack. Instead, Aerith has been influenced by another universe (one where the original game's events have already occurred) and likewise the party's victory over the Whispers influenced the Terrier universe (allowing Zack to survive). Time is progressing linearly throughout all of this.

ffviir-timeline7.jpg
 
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Fryguy07

Rookie Adventurer
Oh Zack is defnitely alive. Everything that theyve shown supports it. He's not in an alternate timeline, were already IN the alternate timeline!! Thats what remake is. Not the same timeline from original. Its OK guys just accept it. We have a NEW story with a new adventure! This is a good thing. :-)
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
>What will become of the planet?

>What's Sephiroth's endgame?

>What is fact and what is fiction?


"We're getting a NEW story with a new adventure!"

.....

If you say so. :monster:
 

Fryguy07

Rookie Adventurer
That's what it sounds like to me.. Why would they ask those questions? If we were going to follow the original storyline then they are already answerd. BUT, since were not following the original, lose questions are opened to be asked.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Aerith's speaking to the party and if you listen to the Japanese dialogue, it's nowhere near as ambiguous.

And those questions the trailer ask address the 3 major plot points of FFVII. The major points showcased in the main story. They're not new or unknown at all. The trailer "asks" those questions to set up and showcase what the game will be about.
 
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Fiz

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Eh?
I think he is in the timeline with Cloud and Co. I don't think it makes sense to have Cloud and Co in one timeline and Zack in another. It just convolutes the story.

We don't know what the structure of the FF7 universe is right now, and whether there are multiple timelines or not, we don't know where anyone is. There might be a single warped timeline, it might also be multiple timelines, but this doesn't mean they are in different timelines because we don't know whether Cloud and Co exited the singularity into their own timeline or the other timeline.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
But why would they ask questions we already know the answer to?? Doesn't make sense to me..logically

Because not everyone playing FFVII-R has played the original. Old players aren't the only audience for this, and the writers have more respect for their work than to treat it as a retread affair. They aren't going to outright spoil or assume everyone who's watching/experiencing this plot is someone aware of it all, or even wants to be.
 

Smoothie King

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Pat
They weren't literally walking past each other in that scene. Somebody would probably have reacted otherwise.
But if they are in the same timeline and they are in the same location then how are they not literally walking past each other? If it took place beforehand then how can Cloud simultaneously be in different times, in the same timeline in the same exact location?
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
But if they are in the same timeline and they are in the same location then how are they not literally walking past each other? If it took place beforehand then how can Cloud simultaneously be in different times, in the same timeline in the same exact location?
1656224751774.png

Also, Zack's last stand was a month before the main story of FF7, and I'm not sure why anyone thinks that's different here.
 

Ryeleigh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Rye
But if they are in the same timeline and they are in the same location then how are they not literally walking past each other? If it took place beforehand then how can Cloud simultaneously be in different times, in the same timeline in the same exact location?

Because the two scenes aren't literally happening at the same time, they're just showing them concurrently? Just because Zack's fate changed, it doesn't mean the whispers yeeted him forward in time.

And you know, what Odysseus said.
 

cold_spirit

he/him
AKA
Alex T
Interesting, we appear split. 9 votes for alternate timeline, 9 for the same timeline, and 1 for "Zack is dead".

Question for people who think Zack and the party are occupying the same timeline: Do you think the party's past was changed? That the party jumped to an alternate timeline where Zack survived? Or that Zack crossed over to the party's timeline?

I have issues with all three...

On "the party's past was changed": Why is Stamp's breed different? If the storytellers wanted simply to show that Zack survived, then why complicate things with another version of Stamp?

On "the party jumped to an alternate timeline where Zack survived": What happened to the versions of Cloud, Barret, Tifa, Aerith, and Red XIII already living in that alternate timeline? Am I to really believe that they were "overwritten"?

On "Zack crossed over to the party's timeline": What happened to the mako-poisoned Cloud travelling with Zack? Why did the crossing over occur after Zack walked by Aerith in Remake's ending?

I understand that no one can fully answer the above questions. There's purposefully not enough information yet. Though I still think they create more problems than solutions.

However, if one assumes for a moment that Zack is in another timeline from the party's, then none of the above issues exist. Why is Stamp's breed different? It signifies that an alternate timeline exists with a slightly different history. What happened to the versions of Barret, Tifa, Aerith, and Red XIII already living in that alternate timeline? They're going about their lives. What happened to the mako-poisoned Cloud travelling with Zack? Well... he's with Zack!

By assuming there's an alternate timeline, or a multiverse as I call it, the only question remaining is "how will Zack's survival affect the party?" Though it should be noted that none of the other theories answer that either. And, considering Remake ended with the party fighting the embodiment of fate, I don't think crossing between timelines / universes is out of the realm of possibility for this series moving forward.

So yeah, that's what I always get caught up on. And just to be clear, even though I think Zack and the mako-poisoned Cloud are in another universe, I'm not putting them there to "hide them away" from the main story. The exact opposite actually. I think Zack and the multiverse will play a major role in the Remake Project moving forward. It will have planet-shattering ramifications.
 
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Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
Question for people who think Zack and the party are occupying the same timeline: Do you think the party's past was changed? That the party jumped to an alternate timeline where Zack survived? Or that Zack somehow crossed over to the party's timeline?
Here is my dumb asshole explanation for how a single timeline could work without drastically changing anything about what happened in Remake before the singularity despite Zack being alive.

Zack drags Cloud to Midgar. Since he is on the run, and Shinra is looking for the guy who wiped out their whole platoon, he lays low for a while. He doesn't go to Sector 5 straight away since Shinra would know about his relation with Aerith, and as such they'd look there first. So let's say Zacks living with Cloud in a hovel in Sector fuckin 3 or something, doing odd jobs to make money while keeping a low profile. One day, Cloud, either of his own volition or spurred on by Sephiroth's will*, leaves Zack's home and begins stumbling his way to Sector 7. There he would meet Tifa, and things would happen exactly as before from there, except this Cloud would not have the Buster Sword. His false persona would still develop because reasons. Meanwhile, Zack would notice his buddy has mysteriously gone missing, and would begin looking for him. He's all the way in Sector 3, however, so he's searching far from where the plot is happening. Midgar all in all lasts four days, do he wouldn't expand out far enough to catch wind of Cloud's involvement with them yet. After Cloud and co had left Midgar would be when he goes and looks in Sector 5 finally, and hear talk of Aerith going around with a blonde merc who kinda looks like Zack. This is when he'd go to the church to speak with Aerith, only to find her missing. He'd learn that Avalanche had fled Midgar, maybe from Elmyra, and head out to follow them. Meanwhile, this alternate version of Avalanche would be overwritten with the version of them we actually played as after they leave the singularity, difference being they remember the old timeline and Cloud has a Buster Sword as well, because from his personal history Zack still died. This revelation would serve as the backbone for a new twist moment down the line.

*(Crisis Core complete guide states Cloud regaining partial consciousness from his Mako poisoning was because Sephiroth was awakening as well)

This scenerio avoids confusing things like Reno not knowing who Cloud is, Rufus not becoming president, and any other awkward things that might result from the Midgar scenerio happening differently in the rewritten timeline. I've seen theories go as far as saying Sector 7's plate didn't fall in new timeline, but then you'd really start fucking with pre-established character motivations and relationships. Also you'd have to throw out a lot of what Yuffie experienced because she wasn't in the singularity, and as such a new Yuffie would be introduced from the one we played as in that case. I don't think it'll get that complicated. Frankly, I expect everything besides "Zack is alive now!" to be brushed aside with little explanation.

On "the party's past was changed": Why is Stamp's breed is different? If the storytellers wanted simply to show that Zack survived, then why complicate things with another version of Stamp?

My thinking in this scenerio is that it's like the mall in Back to the Future. Before the past is fucked with, it's the Twin Pine mall. Afterwards, because Marty ran over one of the pine trees, it's the Lone Pine mall. Before history is changed, Stamp is a Beagle. Afterwards, he is a Terrier. As for WHY the breed changes, I have no idea lol. Guess the whispers weren't around to influence Shinra's PR anymore. I can imagine a scene in Kalm where someone notices that Stamp looks different, but brushes it off.

On "the party jumped to an alternate timeline where Zack survived": What happened to the versions of Cloud, Barret, Tifa, Aerith, and Red XIII already living in that alternate timeline? Am I to really believe that they were "overwritten"?

Explained above. Yeah. But outside of Cloud having a different sword and Zack in his true memory being dead, they are functionally identical.

On "Zack crossed over to the party's timeline": What happened to the mako-poisoned Cloud travelling with Zack? Why did the crossing over occur after Zack walked by Aerith in Remake's ending?

Not part of my scenerio so I don't have an answer. In any case, as you can see in the Ultimania page I posted, the other Cloud is supposed to be an element that makes this confusing lol.

However, if one assumes for a moment that Zack is in another timeline from the party's, then none of the above issues exist. Why is Stamp's breed is different? It signifies that an alternate timeline exists with a slightly different history. What happened to the versions of Barret, Tifa, Aerith, and Red XIII already living in that alternate timeline? They're going about their lives. What happened to the mako-poisoned Cloud travelling with Zack? Well... he's with Zack!

My thing with this is that this implies the alternate reality already existed, but my take away from the ending is that our actions have created the universe Zack is alive in. I genuinely believe the whispers only exist as a plot element to
A) get Zack back on the table
B) Excuse any changes they make going forward
But what you're saying is that there was always a terrier timeline, and all we did was somehow nudge that one into having Zack live. Possible, but I think it overcomplicates what I view their objective as being since you'd need to introduce another plot device to drag that alive Zack over to where our characters are. Not out of Square's ball park, but again, I think the one and only point here is "Zack's alive now!" and don't think too hard about the implications beyond that lol.

By assuming there's an alternate timeline, or a multiverse as I call it, the only question remaining is "how will Zack's survival affect the party?" Though it should be noted that none of the other theories answer that either.
Yeah there's no telling, which is why I'd appreciate it if a certain someone would stop demanding people write him a plot synopsis of a game that's not out yet to justify the change to him lol. That's what we'll see, one way or another. Zack's gonna get involved. It be happening.

Or, you know, ZACK'S STILL DEAD IT WAS ALL A PRANK IT DOESN'T MEAN ANYTHING LMAO *starts just gobbling down all this delicious red herring* FUCK I LOVE FISH! *smashes wine bottle*
 
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