SPOILERS Split from "Hopes for the remake (story/content)"

[eleamaya]

Idk which thread suitable for this, I dont wanna start a new one.

I'm thinkin' of how FF7R will be divided, part 2 will end in Ancient Temple as it can add the meta about destiny or something, then we'll get Aerith's death at the beginning of part 3. Cliffhanger can sell for the next part. Putting her death at the end of part 2 will risk losing fans who are not wanting to complete FF7R by buying the next part, like not wanting to move on. It's not like us buying OG with 3 CDs of a complete story whether you choose to play Disc 2-3 or not since you’ve paid for it. So to make us buy all parts, I can see that's a marketing strategy.

Nah, It's not only for marketing strategy but more for the shock value as her death happens at the beginning of the game. I don’t say it had to be first chapter, but still beginning. And then, the gamers are forced to move on from her death if they want to complete part 3. If you're upset/angry at her death just at the beginning of the game that SE gives you false hope, and some of you would turn off or even feel regretting spending your money for that and waste it, that's the goal to feel how it's real. If it happened as Part 2′ ending, the players' sadness had been gone when they play Part 3 since the gap between parts can be 2-3 years to be released.

Again, Temple of Ancient is better ending than Forgotten Capital to get a kind of meta like Part 1's CH 18... and to us determine to stop Sephiroth more, to give us more hope and stronger desire to save Aerith for next. Who knows if there was really an option/story mechanism to save her in Part 3 as the last part. And if you chose that, then you'd get the consequences of bad ending or something like that. Though, I'd be fine if there was no option to guide you for the rest of the chapters to different ending; so it ends like how it originally should be.

I'm okay even if they divide it into 4 parts since the story has a chance to be expanded. But still, Aerith's death is suitable at the beginning or in the middle of the game whether it's within Part 2/3/4 (that's why in OG, it's exactly in the middle: the end of disc 1). It's different from Zack's death in CC since CC is about his journey to be a hero and that's how his journey ends, but the journey in FF7 (both OG and Remake) still has to continue after her death and you need to feel that.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

There is no doubt in my mind that part II will end in Nibelheim, it would make a perfect arc. The game starts with the full flashback, where you see the town getting destroyed and burned down so when you, after a long journey where the characters come to terms with everything that went down that day, finally see it fully rebuild and intact, they get the first big clue that there is something wrong with Clouds story. It really would be the perfect high note to end it, obviously tho they will also mix some new mystery into that plus some Jenova/Sephiroth battle in the end

 

[KindOfBlue]

I think if you wanna go as far as Temple of the Ancients, you might as well push a little further for the Forgotten City. As for Nibelheim, I’m afraid if they end it there then it’ll force them to pad the game out more much like they did with Midgar, and we’d probably end up with more than three games for the whole story.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

I think if you wanna go as far as Temple of the Ancients, you might as well push a little further for the Forgotten City. As for Nibelheim, I’m afraid if they end it there then it’ll force them to pad the game out more much like they did with Midgar, and we’d probably end up with more than three games for the whole story.

they did say tho that they wanted to add compilation locations, so that would be some new content that would take up some space, I'm sure they will expand Yuffie and Wutai in a big manner since they set it up pretty hard in the first part. This also reminds me, didn't Kitase once got a bit pissed when it was assumed the remake will be 3 parts, which was kinda suspicious.

 

[eleamaya]

There is no doubt in my mind that part II will end in Nibelheim, it would make a perfect arc. The game starts with the full flashback, where you see the town getting destroyed and burned down so when you, after a long journey where the characters come to terms with everything that went down that day, finally see it fully rebuild and intact, they get the first big clue that there is something wrong with Clouds story. It really would be the perfect high note to end it, obviously tho they will also mix some new mystery into that plus some Jenova/Sephiroth battle in the end

Okay, then Aerith's death can still be put in the middle of Part 3. I'm just against it's put as ending as many people expect. Ending it in Nibelheim also can be equivalent as throwing Zack's mystery into the last scene XD.

Btw, isnt the first clue given in Gongaga?

 

[KindOfBlue]

Okay, then Aerith's death can still be put in the middle of Part 3. I'm just against it's put as ending.

I think that would make the Remake take a lot longer than necessary if they waited that long to kill off Aeirth. Besides, having the next game end with Aerith’s death and letting that simmer for a few years seems like just the kind of downer they’d go for to really strengthen the impact of her death.

they did said they wanted to add compilation locations, so that would be some new content that would take up some space,

Unless they want to make it at least four games long, I doubt they’ll want to dwell too much on compilation locations

also I'm sure they will expand Yuffie and Wutai in a big manner since they set it up pretty hard in the first part.

I think there’s a chance people might be overestimating how large of a role Wutai might play in the future as well

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Okay, then Aerith's death can still be put in the middle of Part 3. I'm just against it's put as ending.

Sure, I think part three will be everything from the temple of Ancient to the moment when the Weapons get loose. I can see them ending that part with Tifa looking through the window to see Meteor up in the sky. Another perfect cliffhanger: Aerith dead. Cloud gone. Weapons causing havoc. The rest of Avalanche nowhere to be found and in the middle of all that, our Tifa all alone.

 

[ForceStealer]

Aerith's death makes for a lousy game break. No arcs are completed there (not even hers, really). As stated above, the end of the Northern Cave sequence with Cloud giving the Black Materia to Sephiroth, the Weapons' release, and Meteor summoned is where you make an act break. That is where the party is at their lowest and the stakes are the highest.

Making Aerith's death the cliffhanger endpoint would completely and utterly rob it of the entire point of her death being sudden, undramatic, and pointless.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I suppose that works too, though I wouldn’t call Aerith’s death a lousy break seeing as its how disc 1 ends. Sure, the rest of the game was available at that point but I don’t think the issue of no arcs being completed would be any different by ending in the Northern Cave, quite the opposite really. Makes for a hell of a cliffhanger though. Still not too keen on pushing that as far back as game 3, I’m sure they could cover all of that in one game.

sudden, undramatic, and pointless.

I don’t think it could ever be “sudden” for those of us who already know it unless they change it, but I don’t think they were going for “undramatic” and “pointless” either. But how would having that be the end point take anything away from it?

 

[a_apple 2.0]

Aerith's death makes for a lousy game break. No arcs are completed there (not even hers, really). As stated above, the end of the Northern Cave sequence with Cloud giving the Black Materia to Sephiroth, the Weapons' release, and Meteor summoned is where you make an act break. That is where the party is at their lowest and the stakes are the highest.

Making Aerith's death the cliffhanger endpoint would completely and utterly rob it of the entire point of her death being sudden, undramatic, and pointless.

I agree, the idea is to get people hungry for the next part, but if you end the game with a characters death it always feels final. Like you end a game that way when the story ends like in CC, but in ff7s case the story is only getting really started at that point.

 

[KindOfBlue]

I agree, the idea is to get people hungry for the next part, but if you end the game with a characters death it always feels final. Like you end a game that way when the story ends like in CC, but in ff7s case the story is only getting really started at that point.

How would killing a character make people any less hungry to see the rest of the story though? Her death happens about halfway through so there’s plenty of story covered and plenty more to come at that point so it still leaves a good number of plot points unresolved.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

How would killing a character make people any less hungry to see the rest of the story though? Her death happens about halfway through so there’s plenty of story covered and plenty more to come at that point.

If you were invested in her story, and the game ends with her death it's kinda the moment where you clink out. If you put her death somewhere in the middle they can put in some out of the grave moments with her or can hint at her LIfestream shenanigans taking place, maybe even bait her coming back or something for the next part. If it's ends with her dying it's just a bummer

 

[ForceStealer]

I don’t think it could ever be “sudden” for those of us who already know it unless they change it, but I don’t think they were going for “undramatic” and “pointless” either. But how would having that be the end point take anything away from it?

Nomura: "Back at the time we were designing the game, I was frustrated with the perennial cliche where the protagonist loves someone very much and so has to sacrifice himself and die in a dramatic fashion to express that love. We found this was the case in both games and movies, both Eastern and Western. But I wanted to say something different, something realistic. I mean, is it right to set such an example to people? "

Kitase: "In the real world, things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad attached to it. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling, but a feeling of emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think 'If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood."

They were absolutely trying for undramatic and pointless, that's why it follows the typically melodramatic, drawn-out, immediately undone sacrifice of Cait Sith in the Temple of the Ancients. To rest the entire ending of an RPG on her death puts that drama back on it, and makes it seem as though it will ultimately build to something, when really doesn't. It also robs it of the sense that they have to immediately press on, despite wishing to quit or spend time mourning.


And yes, all of this assumes they don't just change how everything happens because *throws up arms*

 

[Eerie]

Unless they want to make it at least four games long, I doubt they’ll want to dwell too much on compilation locations

I've the feeling that it's going to be 4 parts, what's with Nojima wanting to *add* locations and also probably wanting to develop others like Junon and Wutai which are full of potential (although to be honest, Wutai could also be a red herring). So 4 parts, if not 5 ^^'

 

[Saven]

Meteor being summoned is the perfect place to end Part 2 (or 3 if it ends up being 4) from both a narrative and gameplay standpoint IMO. I always thought Part 1 was going to be Midgar for the same reasons.

Part 1 - First game in the series. Midgar in the original serves as the first Act of the game from a narrative standpoint. By the end of it, the conflict is set and it starts small only being in the first city (and biggest area to cover in the game) to get the core gameplay mechanics down. Shinra HQ served as a respectable final dungeon. Red XIII doesn't need to be developed in full just yet because you won't be able to use him for long. The game ends on an exciting motorcycle chase where at the end, Cloud and co. go out into the world to hunt for Sephiroth and leave the Shinra behind for now. Still think Square-Enix should've put in a FFI/FFIII/FFIV Prologue to end the game here which I thought would've been a cool homage to the other FFs, but that's just me. (MAYBE for the rumored PS5 release!?)

Part 2 (if it's three parts) - If they go for three games, then it covers all of the second Act that starts with the Nibelheim flashback and goes all the way until Meteor is summoned where like apple mentioned, where the stakes are at an all time low. WHAT WILL HAPPEN NEXT!? The Whirlwind Maze is a great way to finish the game off from a gameplay standpoint too. Nothing has to be developed beyond what the Highwhind/Gold Chocobo/Submarine can explore yet.

Part 2 (if it's four parts) - However, if they go with four parts, I think Nibelheim/Mt. Nibel will be the final place in Part 2. It splits the very long Act II up into two separate parts almost evenly. From a narrative standpoint, beginning the game with the flashback and concluding it with a return back to Nibeheim where you find Sephiroth there already makes sense. The Shinra Manor (or Mt. Nibel Mako Reactor) can serve as the final dungeon where you find Sephiroth who mindfucks Cloud even more with The Reunion which he begins to talk about at this point of the game. This sets up the next game's plot which will conclude with the Reunion taking place. Like Red XIII in the previous game, Vincent doesn't need to be developed and can serve as a guest member. Cid can wait until the next game where he can introduced right away in the opening. For the world map, SE will only need to develop the Eastern Continent and most of the Western Continent. This is where you part ways with the Buggy if it ends here. The Nibelheim flashback can serve as a great tutorial to start the game with Sephiroth showing Cloud how to fight in battle.

Part 3 - This will start in Rocket Town stealing the Tiny Bronco (or maybe a Zack/Cloud flashback if that isn't exciting enough for an opening?). As mentioned above, the Reunion is being set up for the rest of the journey. The Tiny Bronco is available early on and opens up a ton of the world map (which depending on how they scale the world map, will now allow you to swim around all the main continents). The Tiny Bronco will be the main transportation vehicle for the rest of the game. I imagine it will be utilized better than the original game and you can explore islands Wind Waker-style (add Compilation areas in this entry?). As I mentioned above, there will be no need to build the rest of the world yet that the Highwind, Gold Chocobo, or Submarine can explore. Aerith's death is a great gut punch for this specific game's Act II and happens midway through. The rest of the game leads all the way up to Meteor being summoned.

Part 3 or 4 - The final entry in the series (and the beginning of the original game's climax with Meteor roaring in) and it starts with an exciting opening with Tifa and the rest of Avalanche escaping from Junon as Sapphire WEAPON attacks the city. Right afterwards, you get the Highwind, which will allow you to explore most places on the map now. By this point, SE will have all the core mechanics down and this will be likely be the most non-linear entry. With the Highwind (and later the Gold Chocobo and Submarine), you can now explore all areas of the game and do a ton of side quests after waiting so long for the end of the game. Since the original game zips by at a pretty fast rate here narrative-wise, I can see SE adding some filler to it like they did in Part 1, which will better utilize the Highwind and Submarine (hopefully the latter). The OG's original superbosses are now available, most of the ultimate items that weren't available previously are now, and you end the saga by defeating Sephiroth and saving Gaia forever! (or will they after challenging destiny in Part 1? )

 

[KindOfBlue]

If you put her death somewhere in the middle they can put in some out of the grave moments with her or can hint at her LIfestream shenanigans taking place, maybe even bait her coming back or something in the next part.

I mean you could still do these things no matter where you put her death. Besides, if losing investment in the story because of her death is a problem, then I don’t think it will make much of a difference where it happens unless if they changed it and saved it for the very end of the whole story (which is definitely something I’d rather not have).

If it's ends with her dying it's just a bummer

Yes, exactly!

Nojima wanting to *add* locations and also probably wanting to develop others like Junon and Wutai which are full of potential (although to be honest, Wutai could also be a red herring)

I took it as less a red herring and more of just reflecting how much expansion Wutai got in the compilation. By the time we actually go there in the story, they’ve already been defeated so I didn’t really interpret the multiple namedrops as them setting up something big for them in the future but that’s left to be seen.

More than three games just seems like too much padding to me (not that it matters to them because I’d buy them all anyways). I understood the padding for the first part since they wanted to stay in Midgar but having that much padding across multiple locations seems like a bit much, you know?

They were absolutely trying for undramatic and pointless, that's why it follows the typically melodramatic, drawn-out, immediately undone sacrifice of Cait Sith in the Temple of the Ancients.

I don’t think “undramatic” and “pointless” are the right words to describe it though, as it’s a pretty dramatic moment in the story nonetheless and far from pointless. I think the execution (no pun intended) of her death is where the magic is since it seemingly happens about as suddenly as death itself often happens and that empty feeling they wanted to evoke is exactly why I could see them ending a game with her death if anything or at least having it happen towards the end of part 2 and ending at the Northern Cave.

To rest the entire ending of an RPG on her death puts that drama back on it, and makes it seem as though it will ultimately build to something, when really doesn't. It also robs it of the sense that they have to immediately press on, despite wishing to quit or spend time mourning.

But it does build to something, her death is what leads to Sephiroth’s defeat. Honestly though, the original game was a pretty big mood whiplash from watching a friend die to having a grand old time snowboarding so maybe some down time wouldn’t be so bad. Cloud is pretty resolved to stop Sephiroth after Aerith’s death anyways when he asks the others to join him, so I don’t think we lose any sense of urgency that wasn’t already diminished by the Icicle Inn minigame. Either way, my takeaway from the creators’ words wasn’t strictly a commentary on when to kill a character, but how. I don’t consider ending one game with her death as detracting from this because it’s not the end, you know? We know there’s a lot more story to come. Now, if they pushed her death to the very end of the whole remake or didn’t kill her at all, then I think it would lose what made it special.

 

[LNK]

I'm still hoping it's three parts. Whether part 2 ends at the Ancient Temple, or with

Spoiler

Aerith's death

doesn't matter to me. If the next parts are like part 1, I will like them

 

[ForceStealer]

But it does build to something, her death is what leads to Sephiroth’s defeat.

By a lucky break, though, not by design. She didn't have to die for them to win.

Honestly though, the original game was a pretty big mood whiplash from watching a friend die to having a grand old time snowboarding so maybe some down time wouldn’t be so bad.

I've never agreed with this viewpoint, but I seem to be in the minority on that. But given the first part, I'm confident the time between death and Great Glacier will be greater than in the original. So then everyone can do some filler sidequests in Icicle Inn and then maybe they won't feel like the snowboarding is "inappropriate."

 

[KindOfBlue]

By a lucky break, though, not by design. She didn't have to die for them to win.

While it may seem like a lucky circumstance from the POV of the characters, it’s still a situation made by the creators in the first place by their own design. Plus, didn’t she need to be in the Lifestream to use it to reinforce Holy?

But given the first part, I'm confident the time between death and Great Glacier will be greater than in the original. So then everyone can do some filler sidequests in Icicle Inn and then maybe they won't feel like the snowboarding is "inappropriate."

I mean that’s pretty much exactly why I could see them ending the game at her death and starting the next one there, to soften that whiplash a bit. Hell, I’d be fine taking the snowboarding minigame out of that part altogether and just leaving it at Gold Saucer if they wanted to push the ending to Sephiroth getting the black materia.

 

[ForceStealer]

While it may seem like a lucky circumstance from the POV of the characters, it’s still a situation made by the creators in the first place by their own design. Plus, didn’t she need to be in the Lifestream to use it to reinforce Holy?

When I said "design," I meant the characters' "design" in-universe, not the developers', sorry. The casting of Holy doesn't require a sacrifice and thus was not the characters' intent as it was with Cait Sith in the Temple.

And possibly, but also had she not died it would not have taken them so long to learn about Holy and what she was trying to do, so they may have been able to release Holy long before Meteor was so close to impact.


And yeah, as I've said elsewhere, I've never found the silent trip down the mountainside that ends with them stranded in the middle of a glacier to be a "grand old time" so I've never seen the mood whiplash. I guess they could cut out the balloons if it helps people?

 

[KindOfBlue]

When I said "design," I meant the characters' "design" in-universe, not the developers'. The casting of Holy doesn't require a sacrifice and thus was not the characters' intent as it was with Cait Sith in the Temple.

And possibly, but also had she not died it would not have taken them so long to learn about Holy and what she was trying to do, so they may have been able to release Holy long before Meteor was so close to impact.


And yeah, as I've said elsewhere, I've never found the silent trip down the mountainside that ends with them stranded in the middle of a glacier to be a "grand old time" so I've never seen the mood whiplash. I guess they could cut out the balloons if it helps people?

But would they have been able to defeat Sephiroth in time with Aerith alive anyways? The gang still lost at least a week to being captured by Shinra while Cloud was incapacitated along with everything else that happens between Meteor being summoned and Sephiroth’s defeat. I think one way or another, something would have to trigger the Lifestream to reinforce Holy. Shoot, it’s probably best that Aerith died when she did or else it would set her up to actually have to sacrifice herself willingly later, which I don’t think anybody wants.

 

[Stiggie]

I agree, the idea is to get people hungry for the next part, but if you end the game with a characters death it always feels final. Like you end a game that way when the story ends like in CC, but in ff7s case the story is only getting really started at that point.

I think you're underestimating the power of an ending to jumpstart a new beginning.

Lets take FFVII remake and Fellowship of the rings as an example.

Fellowship of the rings ends without any great evils being defeated, the fellowship just breaks, and Boromir dies. And yet, it doesn't dissapoint, and it does leave us wanting more, the reason is simple, it didn't end with Boromirs death and the breaking of the fellowship, no, it took the time to add a few minutes afterwards showing the new road the story would be taking. Aragorn, Legolas, and Gimli will not abandon Merry and Pippin to torment and death, upliftingly they are going to hunt for orcs.
This is contrasted with Sam and Frodo who also end the movie looking to the future, but a bleak one, with a message from the past from a dead team member reminding us of what we've been through, but also priming us for what's to come.

FFVII:R ends very similarly, with what would basically be a simmer in the escape from Midgar, however, that would leave us looking back when for a cliffhangar we want to audience to be looking forward. This is why Remake was never gonna end with the death of Shinra, which closes a chapter, but with the pursuit of Sephiroth, which starts a new one. Now the actually added boss battle nonsense was in no way necessary, but what was VERY necessary, the thing that actually ends the game properly, are the few minutes on the edge of Midgar, where we see our heroes stepping out into the future, Cloud vowing that as long as Sephiroth is out there, he'll follow him, Barret saying goodbye to Marlene.
Hell, Tifa's "count me in", and RedXII saying "if it's to be a hunt, you could use a nose like mine" directly parallels Gimli and Legolas joining Aragorn to hunt some orc (we have his axe, and his bow after all).

The ending clearly ends a chapter, but opens the new chapter that the climax we just experienced got emotionally invested in.

The reason I say this is because I think you're forgetting that the scene with Aerith dying doesn't end with Aerith dying, or being lowered into the water. There is something that comes after. Cloud and Company, in the shell house, vowing to go after Sephiroth.
I don't know about you, but that seems oddly fitting, we have a game with magic, hope, and adventure, where we accompany an ancient fulfilling her Destiny. Then at the end, that story shatters, and in that darkest moment, before closing off the game, we start with a new sensation, either a vow to not let Aeriths death be in vain, and to continue the task she left us, or perhaps even an air of revenge.

I think Aeriths death finalizes nothing, I don't think a better event to kickstart a new chapter exists. In comparison, what does the temple of the ancients kickstart really?

 

[KindOfBlue]

There is something that comes after. Cloud and Company, in the shell house, vowing to go after Sephiroth.

That’s exactly what I was getting at earlier. Now, there is a chance they could go full “NOMURAAAAAAAA (angrily shakes fist)” with the the Jenova•LIFE boss and turn it into some insane extended sequence, but I think that brief moment of downtime afterwards where Cloud asks his friends for help is a good way to lead into the next act.

In comparison, what does the temple of the ancients kickstart really?

Pretty much my same thoughts about ending at Nibelheim but especially ending at the Temple. Might as well stretch it a little bit further to the Forgotten City at that point. I do at least like the idea of ending at the Northern Cave, I just don’t know if they’re going to want to start what is potentially the last installment of the remake with Cloud being in a coma for like the first third or so of the game.

 

[eleamaya]

I think Aeriths death finalizes nothing, I don't think a better event to kickstart a new chapter exists. In comparison, what does the temple of the ancients kickstart really?

What I mean is Ancient Temple as a climax battle. But the actual ending or the last scene is she leaving the party to face Sephiroth alone and Cloud as the party leader decides to pursue Aerith after his hesitant at first. I think it's similar to Frodo's decision to leave and face Sauron alone, he's afraid of the Ring corrupting his friends, same as Aerith doesnt want Sephiroth to corrupt Cloud as she sees how bad it is in Ancient Temple. The different is Aragorn as the party leader decides to rescue the other members who's taken by the Orcs, not to follow Frodo. And in FF7R, Aerith is the only one who has this danger, so they also want to protect/rescue her. That's why having her leaving is a good cliffhanger for us to save her, especially since her death has been hinted at since Part 1 multiple times. Then, despite being spoiler, her death at the beginning of next game will hit the same.... the shock and the loss, but we have to keep going on to complete the journey without having to wait for the next release 2-3 years apart. Seasonal TV Series have this kind of cliffhanger especially when the character has designed for people to be invented but story doesn't end yet. Why they don't kill Glenn at the end of the Walking Dead season but for us having to start the new season with his death? Because it could've had a chance that it isn't him who would be the next victim. But half the fandom also expect it's likely him. It's like gambling, same as Aerith when some of us really hoped she could've survived this time.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

This assumes that her death scene plays out the same way it does in canon to begin with... and I think it's highly likely the story will be different enough by the time of Forgotten City that "Aerith dies here" isn't going to happen at all like it does in the OG.

If you assume the plot will be rather different past Midgar, that really opens up a lot of different options for pacing and where to put the game breaks.