Spoiler Free Questions Thread (All Spoilers Must Be Tagged!)

[Odysseus]

That's true. The compilation was full of good ideas that were just half baked (except for before crisis, that was pretty much all bad.) The remake may in fact be the place to see these ideas properly fleshed out. As long as this is something they WANT to make and not just something they're doing solely for profit, I think we're still okay.

 

[Saven]

No Gackt though.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

No Deepground. Deepground was such a dumb idea, it's why I could never get into DoC. I just couldn't suspend my disbelief that far.

 

[Odysseus]

No Deepground. Deepground was such a dumb idea, it's why I could never get into DoC. I just couldn't suspend my disbelief that far.

You just have to embrace how stupid it is, it gets sooooooo much better once you stop trying to take it seriously. Dirge is my favorite anime b-movie.

 

[Suzaku]

Dirge of Cerberus is a stupid game with stupid writing, but I think the worldbuilding for Deep Ground is solid. Especially the ruins of old Midgar and Mako Reactor 0. In my opinion, being able to see those locations was worth the price of admission.

It's also worth noting that DC was pretty firmly an experimental side project helmed by comparatively inexperienced developers, none of whom are working on Remake: Takayoshi Nakazato (director), Hiroki Chiba (writer), and Yukio Nakatani (art director).

Spoiler

For what it's worth, they seem to have reimagined Deep Ground somewhat in Remake. At least, the DG monsters that are set loose aren't anything that was seen in DC, more closely resembling makonoids or perhaps some of the heavily mutated Genesis copies from CC.

Datamined screenshots from the quest log:

https://imgur.com/a/CTJp3dM

The only visual callback is the bands of glowing light covering their bodies, though here instead of armor covered in blue LED strips, these creatures seem to have veins of red energy running through cracks in their hides.

Edit:

Spoiler

After thoroughly searching the datamined text, I don't think they're even actually referred to as "Deep Ground" anything in-game, only in the code and filenames. In-game, it seems that they are named as follows:

Type-0 Behemoth: Variant form of the behemoth monster, bred and raised as Shinra lab specimens. Other monsters quake in fear at the sound of their roar. (DeepGroundBehemoth_Standard)

Failed Experiment: Experimental specimens kept in the Shinra underground labs. They were soldiers once, but have been monsterized with cellular transplants from various large creatures. They lead groups of failed test subjects. (DeepGroundCommander_Standard)

Unknown Entity: Experimental specimens kept in the Shinra underground labs. They were soldiers once, but cellular transplants designed to enhance their strength have turned them into monsters. (DeepGroundCommander_Zako, DeepGroundMonster_Standard)

 

[Makoeyes987]

Dirge of Cerberus is a stupid game with stupid writing

It's also worth noting that DC was pretty firmly an experimental side project helmed by comparatively inexperienced developers, none of whom are working on Remake: Takayoshi Nakazato (director), Hiroki Chiba (writer), and Yukio Nakatani (art director).

Yup, and what's funny is that it literally was a toss up between it being a shooting game based on Yuna post FFX-2, or some other gun character, because guns. The team went with Vincent because they figured it'd be the most fun. Like, they were low-key required to do something since this was when S-E had to release games on everything on all platforms back then.

 

[Suzaku]

I mean, there's certainly stuff I like about DC (lore, worldbuilding, some of the art design), but the writing and directing really does not hold up. I find it kind of embodies the worst of the early 2000s stylistic tropes that bog down the entire Compilation and are thankfully being toned down and/or omitted from Remake in favor of more grounded, or shall we say tasteful, cinematography and dialogue.

If it were more tongue-in-cheek. I'd probably be more into it. Metal Gear Rising: Revengeance is stupid in all the best ways, but the Compilation takes itself too seriously. I loved it all back in 2005~, but going back and rewatching cutscenes nowadays, it gets awfully cringy at times. Even Crisis Core suffers from some of that pretentious gaudiness.

Personally, I'm ecstatic that Remake feels like a more artistically mature take on the series, and I'm really excited to see how they tie-in and reimagine the rest of the Compilation. And honestly, knowing how much time, money, and effort they're putting into realizing the world in HD, I sincerely hope they plan to do more with all these assets than just a remake of the OG game.

 

[Odysseus]

So I take it the writing from the script leak must be a lot better than the compilation's writing, then?

 

[Makoeyes987]

I find it kind of embodies the worst of the early 2000s stylistic tropes that bog down the entire Compilation and are thankfully being toned down and/or omitted from Remake in favor of more grounded, or shall we say tasteful, cinematography and dialogue.

You're right that it wasn't exclusive to Compilation back then. In a lot of Square's works from the early 2000s, the dialogue carried a fervid, melodramatic delivery which didn't always match the character model movements or scripting. Which resulted in very awkward delivery at times. You see it in Dissidia, BBS, DC and CC and other titles. Main line FF entries escape this problem due to fact the voice acting budget and overall direction were of higher quality like in FFXII and XIII, but in those lesser games and spin offs?

Hell, 358/2 I'd say mostly benefits from simply having most of its dialogue being text

It was a very awkward time. But I remember it fondly and enjoy it. It brought us to where we are today, after all.

The fact the characters are able to emote better aside from exaggerated hand and model movements along with the voice acting not being done in an empty room with no context or direction to dictate or polish their delivery, makes this and games of this gen so much better.

So I take it the writing from the script leak must be a lot better than the compilation's writing, then?

I can't say for sure given these are just subtitles but the dialogue definitely reads better. The dialogue is more fluid and natural. It's dramatic but less melodramatic.

 

[Suzaku]

So I take it the writing from the script leak must be a lot better than the compilation's writing, then?

Yeah, it's much more naturalistic overall, and honestly feels more like it was written primarily by and for Westerners rather than translated from Japanese. There's still some melodrama and cheese--and verbal grunting with seemingly every physical exertion, judging from the trailers--but this time around the dialogue feels like something real people might actually say. It might just be top tier localization, but KH3 had similar dialogue improvements that make me think Nomura and Nojima may have simply matured as writers, or are maybe being influenced more by Western productions.

 

[Wol]

The dialogue feels nice overall, outside of some relatively forced puns and jokes I noticed in the demo, though KHs writing doesnt inspire any trust on my part lol

 

[Theozilla]

What's the big issue with grunts? It's not like people don't make sounds during physical exertion in real life either.

 

[ForceStealer]

Anime and anime-inspired things definitely overdo it, though I didn't think this particular scene was super guilty of that. At least everything happening here involved surprise or exertion.

A better example is Noctis refueling the Regalia, geez dude the nozzle doesn't weigh that much

 

[Rydeen]

Excessive anime grunting is for thirsty fangirls. In all seriousness, though, I don't mind anime grunting either (but haven't watched the offending footage). People grunt plenty IRL. I have been watching anime my entire life, however, so maybe I'm biased.

 

[Theozilla]

I guess I just don't understand why it's being referred to as "anime grunting" (and I watch a lot of anime too), because as stated before, people grunt in real life too. And it's not like video game characters made by Western developers don't grunt when they are physically exerting themselves?

 

[ForceStealer]

It's just stuff like this

No one makes that much noise while filling up with gas (there's even more after where this cuts off where he closes the gas tank panel)
It doesn't bother me that much, and I don't think the scene of the troops on the platform here was an egregious example of it. But I know what they're talking about.

 

[Theozilla]

It's just stuff like this

No one makes that much noise while filling up with gas (there's even more after where this cuts off where he closes the gas tank panel)
It doesn't bother me that much, and I don't think the scene of the troops on the platform here was an egregious example of it. But I know what they're talking about.

Okay sure, I can understand examples like that as excessive exertion sounds (though it's not unbelievable, I've seen people make even more extreme sounds for menial movements). But I still don't see how excessive examples like that are somehow unique and/or more frequent in anime (and other Japanese media), I've seen those types of excessive grunts/sounds in Western media too.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It's so ubiquitous to me I didn't even notice it before. Like, I didn't really pay attention to Noctis' noises while pumping gas aside from the sound he made when done as rubbed his hands together.

I think it's a combination of not leaving too much silence, and conveying a sense of activity or motion in scenes for the characters. Like, now looking at other scenes in XV, they do make vocalizations but they're the sort of sounds you'd probably only hear yourself if you were the person making them. Like a sigh or a grunt to one's self. It's kinda interesting cause again, it's just so ubiquitous that I never even noticed it before. It just sorta felt part of their own emotive expression for the scene.

 

[ForceStealer]

It's definitely an anime thing, and it's different in degree from Western media. Just search it on Google and look at all the results of videos and people asking about it, lol.

 

[Erotic Materia]

it's just so ubiquitous that I never even noticed it before

Yes....it's very present in anime and other japanese media. But for people like me who rarely watch anime, it sounds unnatural/forced, to the point of being distracting. It's not just the fact that sighs/grunts are there, it's that the way they're expressed is so not like how a person would react.

I've pointed this out before, but it's too good of an example to not use again: our very own FF7R, the latest trailer, at the ~4:25 mark.

Spoiler: *GASP!* *hngh?* *!* etc.

Some of the grunts/sighs/gasps/etc are natural, especially when doing something physically demanding, like kicking a shinra guard in the stomach. But the way surprise is expressed by that weird gulp of air is, well, weird. An actual verbal response would be far more natural, in my opinion. And 30 uninterrupted seconds of various non-verbal grunts/sighs/gasps before anyone actually says anything? UUUUUUGGGGHHH.

Ok, I'm done. You may begin lobbing your firebombs at the weeb-hater.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Okay so like, the first gag/grunt I imagined Jessie or someone like, choked the guard out and we were hearing their last gasps of breath and resistance.

The next grunt was the guy gasping in shock at the sound of their ally being choked.

...The rest is from the guard neglecting their cardio, thus getting winded from running a short distance to check the source of said choking sounds

Like, it's fucking hilarious now that I'm noticing. The second guard is making a lot of choking/gasping noises but in my head it sounded perfectly natural before but counting the amount is like.. Pretty high.

... Then Wedge jumps down and makes a noise which to me makes sense but... Everyone's making noises....

LOL this is too wild.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah I don't think that scene in particular is really a severe example of it. The gulp of air is because Jessie's choking someone out, like Mako said. And they're trying to be stealthy, so why would anyone be saying anything? I find Noctis with the gas way more distracting

 

[Erotic Materia]

It's not about them saying/not saying anything. It's that half the sounds that are made (including from the Shinra guards, who have every reason to NOT be quiet) are unnatural. Which is my overall complaint in general.

 

[Odysseus]

Look forward to "anime grunt removal" mods in 2021

 

[Maidenofwar]

Just chiming in to say that when I am seriously startled taken blindside and startled I let out a literal involuntarily high pitched scream ... one occasion was when I was riding and the horse got spooked and broke into a gallop and I screamed before I could help it ... I got a row ? ... so yeah YMMV ?