[Spoilers] Material Ultimania Plus discussion

Eerie

Fire and Blood
#1
This thread is dedicated to talking about the Material Ultimania Plus. Until its release in July, I guess we'll have to do with the little bits some fans have snatched from this promotional video:


FYI, there's already a Reddit thread around this.

I only have sources for the cloti scene in chapter 1:


With its translation, here:

In the center column, top: Tifa 8 years old: Are you ignoring me again?

In the red text: in reality, Tifa actually didn't realize Cloud was there
So basicallyyyyyyy... this means it's a modified memory by Jenova. Personally, I think it's a big hint at the Lifestream scene, right here from chapter 1, where we have what Cloud wanted, even as a kid: to be noticed by Tifa. Him ignoring her is probably how he truly acted around her and the other boys, which gives that weird impression about this flashback.

This did send clotis fans looking up for other flashbacks, FYI, and the only untainted one by Jenova is probably the promise scene. It's the only one without the greenish glow, and the only one that doesn't give him a headache.

From the reddit thread:

クラウドがエアリスの顔を認識したことをきっかけに意識ノイズが起きる、エアリスとクラウドの間にセフィロスが立っている。 「お前には誰も守れない。ああ、自分さえもな」 これはクラウドの心の中のセフィロスのセリフ​

Cloud recognizes Aeris's face which causes a ringing noise in his ears, and Sephiroth stands between them. "You can't protect anyone. Oh, not even yourself." This is Sephiroth inside Cloud's heart (in his mind/subconscious).​

Interestingly, they use 認識 which would mean "recognise" but I expect more expert in Japanese to kick in for a nice translation because I'm not sure how this one has been translated. It's arguably interesting if it's really "recognise" or simply describing stuff that we know about - to me it doesn't look in game that Cloud "recognises" her, rather that he becomes aware that she is here? His reaction to her seems more in tune with that interpretation. But maybe I am wrong, I've been often in the past, so why not.

Other stuff seen:

  • "Run, Cloud. You have to leave, you have to live" - Sephiroth says this line to Cloud, and Cloud replies "Bastard!" Well... that line Sephiroth said? That's apparently what Cloud's mom Claudia said to Cloud - presumably after Sephiroth stabbed her and she lay dying. Sephiroth is mocking the fact that he killed Cloud's mom.
OK, this one is siiiiiiiiiiiiiick, like holy shit, I didn't catch this and it's both awesome and... holy shit, I'd be so mad if I were Cloud right at this moment. Incredibly powerful.

Cloud's cool move where he gives Tifa the flower? He's apparently mimicking Zack's flirting style there
And I mean, LOL, no wonder that seemed TOO SMOOTH for Cloud! And Tifa noticed immediately, saying how unlike him that was haha. Spot on, Tifa. What's interesting to me is that how he flirts in chapter 3 with her the devs have noted that he's awkward (in the bar, which I completely agree with lol), so there's a gradation between his SOLDIER self and the way he acts more relax around Tifa.
 
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AKA
AlexT
#5
So basicallyyyyyyy... this means it's a modified memory by Jenova. Personally, I think it's a big hint at the Lifestream scene, right here from chapter 1, where we have what Cloud wanted, even as a kid: to be noticed by Tifa.
It would be sick if the Lifestream sequence in part 3 or whatever unravels these scenes. For example, first we're shown the memory as we see it in Part 1 with the Jenova effect, then it transitions to a clearer version with the true event.

Also perfect that the promise scene is the only one without the Jenova effect, considering that's the first memory Cloud and Tifa relied on in the OG to find the true Cloud.
 
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Eerie

Fire and Blood
#10
It would be sick if the Lifestream sequence in part 3 or whatever unravels these scenes. For example, first we're shown the memory as we see it in Part 1 with the Jenova effect, then it transitions to a clearer version with the true event.

Also perfect that the promise scene is the only one without the Jenova effect, considering that's the first memory Cloud and Tifa relied on in the OG to find the true Cloud.
I am absolutely persuaded that we are going to see that all these memories are fake, they're clearly preparing the ground for the Lifestream scene, and it's going to be awesome.

I had noticed that while the placement of Cloud remembering the promise seemed random, it also made a stronger point for Cloud and Tifa to determine it as real; because Tifa doesn't talk about it, he remembers by himself, and Jenova can't look at Tifa's memories at this point. It was a big plot hole in the OG, but not anymore. I am glad they have this covered, even if it seemed random at first.
 
AKA
The Engineer
#11
Lifestream scene is going to be even more incredible than the original's at this rate!
Both Kitase and Nomura have said the Lifestream Sequence is like... the most impactful scene in the OG for them. They will probably make it *very* obvious that it is the emotional heart/climax of the entire story this time around.
"Run, Cloud. You have to leave, you have to live" - Sephiroth says this line to Cloud, and Cloud replies "Bastard!" Well... that line Sephiroth said? That's apparently what Cloud's mom Claudia said to Cloud - presumably after Sephiroth stabbed her and she lay dying. Sephiroth is mocking the fact that he killed Cloud's mom.
Wow, Sephiroth's line alludes to Clouds mom final words and I didn't even realize, despite making total sense.
I remember saying long ago that line about running away spoken from Sephiroth could have been mocking his Mother's last words or something rather than being an allusion to Zack....
The one problem I have with this interpretation is that Sephrioth kills Cloud's Mom the same way he kills everyone else in Nibelheim in the OG and CC. He does it because she's there, not because she's anyone special to *Cloud.* I have a hard time seeing Sephrioth specifically remember "Oh, this is Cloud's Mom; I should remember this death to torment Cloud with it" at this point. Cloud hasn't gotten Sephrioth's attention yet by almost killing him in the mako reactor because... Sephiroth hasn't gone to the mako reactor at this point even.

There just feels like there's a bit of a character motivation issue here for Sephiroth. Although... I wonder if they're going to restructure Nibelheim a bit so that we see a lot more of Nibelheim burning from Cloud's perspective rather than Zack's (finally). We never actually do get to see Cloud's perspective on the week between the first reactor visit and Sephiroth burning the town after all. We just jump to Zack finding Nibelheim already burning and most of the town-people already dead. It certainly feels like... something... could be missing here...
 

KindOfBlue

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Blue
#12
I have a hard time seeing Sephrioth specifically remember "Oh, this is Cloud's Mom; I should remember this death to torment Cloud with it" at this point. Cloud hasn't gotten Sephrioth's attention yet by almost killing him in the mako reactor because... Sephiroth hasn't gone to the mako reactor at this point even.
I think Sephiroth just remembers this after the fact, Cloud does confront him with “Mom...Tifa...My town...give it back...” while stabbing him so I imagine it’s something he didn’t think much of at the time but became an important thing to remember afterwards
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
#13
This is from the cloti FC, I thought it would fit better here:

But it's then also interesting that his forward visions of Aerith's death is also accompanied by that whole green tinge / static noise / headache so what does it all meannnnnnn
Indeed, it's interesting because then, it means that Jenova is showing him the future - we know that Aerith, Sephiroth and Jenova who are in the Lifestream can receive information from the future, so it means that it's the "memory from the future" showed by Jenova that makes Cloud "react", probably because he can feel the sadness of that upcoming scene without understanding why.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#14
We know contact with Aerith and those who've had contact with her triggers awareness of the Arbiters of Fate.

But we don't know if awareness is what causes visions of the future.

I don't know if the green static is indicative of Jenova, however. Tifa and Red XIII's visions of the future also had that green static too and those didn't come from Jenova.
 
AKA
The Engineer
#15
I don't know if the green static is indicative of Jenova, however. Tifa and Red XIII's visions of the future also had that green static too and those didn't come from Jenova.
There's no reason why they couldn't have. Jenova's power lies in making people see things that aren't there. Weather or not they have Jenova Cells in them is... irrelevant. Sephiroth making people see what he wants them to see of the future is... just about what he does at the Northern Crater and in the Shinra Hologram room. This would just make one more *known* place where he's mucked around with the party's memory at large.

It bears repeating that this was how Jenova manipulated the Cetra. She made them see/think things that weren't actually there to manipulate them against each other. Sephiroth doing it to the party fits right in with that.

The only thing that seems to make a difference is *distance* from Sephrioth, but given Cloud is a Sephrioth Copy with very shaky mental barriers to Sephrioth.... that's not exactly a problem at the moment. Sephiroth is... pretty much there in some sense the entire time already.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#17
There's no reason why they couldn't have. Jenova's power lies in making people see things that aren't there. Weather or not they have Jenova Cells in them is... irrelevant. Sephiroth making people see what he wants them to see of the future is... just about what he does at the Northern Crater and in the Shinra Hologram room. This would just make one more *known* place where he's mucked around with the party's memory at large.

It bears repeating that this was how Jenova manipulated the Cetra. She made them see/think things that weren't actually there to manipulate them against each other. Sephiroth doing it to the party fits right in with that.

The only thing that seems to make a difference is *distance* from Sephrioth, but given Cloud is a Sephrioth Copy with very shaky mental barriers to Sephrioth.... that's not exactly a problem at the moment. Sephiroth is... pretty much there in some sense the entire time already.
The reason I don't think it's connected to Jenova is because they receive those visions from Whisper Harbinger. And Whisper Harbinger is a being created by the Planet to protect it. If anything, those visions are strongly implied to be the memories of the Planet itself.
 
AKA
The Engineer
#18
The reason I don't think it's connected to Jenova is because they receive those visions from Whisper Harbinger. And Whisper Harbinger is a being created by the Planet to protect it. If anything, those visions are strongly implied to be the memories of the Planet itself.
Except Jenova used people's own memories against them to. Using the memories of the Planet against itself is right up Sephrioth's ally. That's... how he's been manipulating Cloud ever since the OG.

And it's... really obvious Sephrioth wanted Cloud and Co. to fight against Harbringer. If he hadn't opened the portal to Harbringer in the first place, they would have never tried to fight it in the first place. So I think it's pretty reasonable to think that Sephrioth might have planned for Cloud and Co. to see the future from Harbringer for various reasons.

And if you do think Sephrioth is in the Lifestream... well... we know he's trying to take control of it. Him taking taking control of Harbringer isn't too much of a stretch either given we see him control other Whispers in the 2nd-to-last fight with Cloud in the Singularity. And that's after Harbringer is "dead". So him messing with what memories Cloud and Co. get from Harbringer... yeah... I can buy it.
 

Misterbadguy

Phantom Lord
AKA
METEODRIVE
#19
Except Jenova used people's own memories against them to. Using the memories of the Planet against itself is right up Sephrioth's ally. That's... how he's been manipulating Cloud ever since the OG.

And it's... really obvious Sephrioth wanted Cloud and Co. to fight against Harbringer. If he hadn't opened the portal to Harbringer in the first place, they would have never tried to fight it in the first place. So I think it's pretty reasonable to think that Sephrioth might have planned for Cloud and Co. to see the future from Harbringer for various reasons.

And if you do think Sephrioth is in the Lifestream... well... we know he's trying to take control of it. Him taking taking control of Harbringer isn't too much of a stretch either given we see him control other Whispers in the 2nd-to-last fight with Cloud in the Singularity. And that's after Harbringer is "dead". So him messing with what memories Cloud and Co. get from Harbringer... yeah... I can buy it.
Whilst I'm not a big Chapter 18 fanin terms of gameplay (the bosses themselves are fine but it's more or less just a gauntlet), the wider implications of what Sephiroth is aware of and more importantly what he's now capable of is massively intriguing, and honestly it ended up being the cherry on top of the game for me. Say what you will about the Whispers, but him using an aspect of the Planet against itself as well as the party is well within character.
 

Eerie

Fire and Blood
#20

Well, I knew Cloud's behaviour did not match with recognising someone (Aerith in this instance) - it's more "as he became aware that she was there". And the rest of the text insist that he doesn't trust her at all - which match my opinion that he does not accept the flower right away (the talk Aerith has with him after about it is supposed to give us the hint that she had to insist to give it to him).
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#21

Well, I knew Cloud's behaviour did not match with recognising someone (Aerith in this instance) - it's more "as he became aware that she was there". And the rest of the text insist that he doesn't trust her at all - which match my opinion that he does not accept the flower right away (the talk Aerith has with him after about it is supposed to give us the hint that she had to insist to give it to him).
I meant to post last night to clarify that when I saw your previous post about it. Even in English, "recognition" is used as much to mean "acknowledgement of presence" as it is to mean "recall of past familiarity."
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
#24
Boom.

It's starting to makes sense now. The parallel plot of the Remake begins to reveal itself.

The nature and pacing of revelation and understanding feels really familiar. I mean, this is going to give us something to chew on for a good year and some change. I figure they'll be more forthcoming as things go forward.

EDIT:

WHELP.

 
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