[Spoilers] Material Ultimania Plus discussion

[Makoeyes987]

I too think it will ultimately follow the OG's directly just like the first game followed the OG 95% of the time.

But the writers can still do that while playing with the expectations, context, and framing of the scenario for the audience. Doing certain things differently or remaking them entirely. Like, the more I think about it, the more the whole Sector 7 Pillar assault in the Remake makes sense.

Cloud's being built up as Sephiroth's destiny defying ally (or puppet ). In fact, Cloud (and through him the rest of the party), get better at it more and more as the story progresses. Thanks to their efforts, the Sector 7 slums aren't a complete loss of life like before in the OG. This time a good number of people escape while before, only a small handful even survive in the OG. Cloud and Tifa make it up the pillar fast enough to prevent Reno pushing the button, and then they beat the shit out of him so bad that Rude fears for his life. The Whispers have to directly intervene to give Rude enough time to hit the button, save Reno and keep the plot on course.

Sephiroth's perspective, thanks to this ambition, may still cause him to wish Aerith dead, if only because it'll make Cloud stronger.

Because, upon Cloud's failure to save the Sector 7 undercity, Sephiroth appears to Cloud but he doesn't just taunt him. He says, "You have failed again, I see. But through suffering you will grow strong. Isn't that what you want?" And in Japanese he says, "Loss makes you stronger." That's a pretty dark, and morbid way for Sephiroth to think of making Cloud stronger. Mental torture and anguish (which he conveniently already enjoys inflicting on Cloud) will also make Cloud stronger, and it's also his desire. It's a pretty messed up dynamic, but perfect for Sephiroth.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

They’ve spent over a year telling fans they’re following the OG but even now people doubt it.

Because they've given us *good reason* to doubt it.

Particularly these two sections...



You have Nojima himself saying they *planned* to have the story of Remake diverge "only slightly" this early into Remake and then Nomura says they decided it have it diverge more... only to cut back on the divergence when it got to be too big. But it sounds like the story of Remake diverging from the OG story has been there since Day 1.

And then Nomura says that there is a second meaning to the title of "Remake" that he can't answer right now, but that we (should) find out in a few years what it is.

Kitase is even more blunt about things changing in other interviews. Even Toriyama himself says that the Remake shouldn't have to follow the OG exactly.

So you have the devs saying two opposing things at once. And some people latch onto one thing (that it will be like the OG) more than the other thing (that Remake will diverge and change what happened in the OG). Other people latch onto how the devs say the OG will change more than how it will stay the same.

No one knows *what* exactly will change and not change at this point. Only that some things are chainging (Zack and other people are now alive) while other things are the same (the Plate still drops). Holding on too tightly to either one view or the other just sounds like a recipe for disappointment down the line.

 

[OWA-2]

Maybe the bigger changes will happen only in Zack's timeline?

 

[cold_spirit]

Why would the timeline split? What force would cause it to do that? The new future is now the only future there ever was or will be. The previous future doesn't exist and never did. How can the planet contain future memories of things that aren't going to happen? There are no inconsistencies because the contradictory event never took place and never will.

In the past I've advocated that there isn't any time travel at all in this story, at least not in the tradition sense. Just separate, asynchronous timelines that certain character consciousnesses have jumped between. A multi-verse. People have said to me "well that's just semantics, it doesn't really change anything", but I disagree. It answers the issue you're describing. I don't think there are any "future memories", just memories of a timeline that's already past. I agree with Mako that time is only flowing forward. As such, Chapter 18 Sephiroth wouldn't be from the future (because that hasn't happened yet), but from another timeline altogether. A timeline that has maybe ended or is close to ending. To say it another way, I don't think that Chapter 18 Sephiroth is trying to change the past. I think he's trying to divert the other timelines from the meeting the same "destiny" as his own.

Likewise, I don't think the destruction of the Whispers propagates in both directions of a timeline. To me, they exist in the present just like anything else. Destroying Whisper Harbinger presumably releases all timelines from their influence from that point on. It's probably too late for the timeline where Chapter 18 Sephiroth is from, but maybe not too late for the Beagle and Terrier timelines.

Now, as OWA-2 said, what they're probably gonna say happened is that Zack's last stand we witness is on a different timeline. (Which, fine, although that doesn't really explain why the two timelines weren't, you know, lined up. Why would the destruction go back to that point on the other timeline?)

I don't think it's uncommon for multi-verses to work like this. The Spider-Verse, arguably the most popular multi-verse in fiction, operates with separate, asynchronous timelines, just like what I'm proposing for Remake. Spoilers for Into the Spider-Verse's post-credit scene: it's revealed that Spider-Man 2099 looks over all timelines, including the modern day one we witnessed throughout the movie. Just an example.

 

[OWA-2]

Oh god, no! Don't turn Sephiroth into an antagonist with good intentions, Square, please, I beg you!

 

[Cae Lumis]

Maybe the bigger changes will happen only in Zack's timeline?

Therein lies the rub, doesn't it: What version of time-travel are we experiencing? Is it one time-line being actively rewritten or two timelines in order to maintain continuity between the two, or two parallel timelines with events occurring side-by-side? Until we finally get solid answers on the nature of Zack, Biggs, Wedge, Jessie and whether or not they are co-existing in the same timeline as the main party of FFVIIR, this... is gonna turn into one massive grudge match of a debate...

Minerva and Madokami help us all, it'll turn into The Great Timeline Debate (GTD)! If that does become a thing, do credit me for the name.

 

[KindOfBlue]

Exactly, y’all got great points but none of it answers my question lol (and really, there’s no way to answer it until we see the rest of the story so I’m not stressing too much).

Regardless of what changes are made, I want to know if either A. we have two parallel timelines, with Zack dead in one and alive in the other, or B. we’ve overwritten the previous timeline where Zack died with one in which Zack lives. Because whether the answer is A or B, you can still go in either direction of completely diverging from the OG, slightly deviating from it, and everything in between.

I also agree that when all is said and done, we’ll be in largely the same place we were at the end of the OG, and I think both of the aforementioned approaches could have their own ways of doing that.

 

[OWA-2]

But we already know they are in different timelines... ?

Toriyama: "An important theme of this story is “Loss.” If all characters you see are able to survive in the future, then perhaps that would be in a different world."

 

[Makoeyes987]

I would say it's like 75% that we're dealing with multiple timelines akin to XIII-2, where diverging branches create separate different worlds.

Given that revealing commentary and all else that's been revealed with Aerith, and then of course Stamp, it fits. Granted, it's not set in stone but it's likely.

 

[cold_spirit]

I would say it's like 75% that we're dealing with multiple timelines akin to XIII-2, where diverging branches create separate different worlds.

Given that revealing commentary and all else that's been revealed with Aerith, and then of course Stamp, it fits. Granted, it's not set in stone but it's likely.

To me, the Stamp difference implies that the Terrier timeline has always existed alongside Beagle, not that Terrier diverged from Beagle. It shows that the two timelines have slightly different histories going back further than Zack's last stand.

Right now that may not seem like an important distinction to make, but I think it'll become important later. It allows the Terrier timeline to do other interesting things beyond Zack's death. For example, maybe Jessie never joined Avalanche in Terrier. Maybe Zack will see her on posters for the Gold Saucer. However, if Zack's last stand is a divergence point, then Jessie would have already joined forces with Biggs, Wedge, and Tifa to form their own Avalanche cell in Terrier. This means we once again lose the opportunity to see her on stage. Again, just an example.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Rufus is in bed with Avalanche, I'm calling it now. If it turns out I'm wrong I will eat humble pie.
The exact nature of his connection with them is yet to be revealed.
I see Reno's line which in Japanese is, "this is sketchy as fuck" has been rendered in the English version as "You sure you want to do this personally, Boss?" Why the change, I wonder? Japanese game makers have a tendency to assume that other-language players aren't quite as quick on the uptake as Japanese players.

"What happens when free will exists, but there exists a person capable of observing the future? Wouldn’t that choice already be predetermined from that person’s perspective?"

No. In a world in which free will exists, they could only be looking at a vision of a possible future, not a future that's already happened or is bound to happen. It's like the difference between an architect's blueprint and a photo of a completed building. Some people here (Mako obv but also others, I can't remember who-all) are arguing that Sephiroth has travelled backwards in time from a future which has already happened on that timeline in order to alter that timeline so that future won't happen, but we already know he's going to fail because if he hadn't failed that future would no longer exist for him to travel back from.

You can't have a world in which free will and destiny as properly defined co-exist. That can only happen if destiny is defined as a set of possibilities.

 

[a_apple 2.0]

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417712626881101827

hmmm I'm starting to realize that the devs try to hammer home that Cloud is a crusty 16 old kid who is as horny as everyone else in this game

 

[Eerie]

@Obsidian Fire nothing you linked tells me they’re not following the OG. They are. Are there big changes in part 1 compared to the OG? Yes. You have to remember that to them Wall Market was thought as a big change - and in all honesty it was! Yet they were still following the OG. We have to understand that it is what they mean when they talk about big changes. In your head expecting something and in their heads it’s two totally different things. This is why they have created a new timeline for what they consider as the biggest changes, ie characters who survive when they should be dead.

 

[Odysseus]

I think the issue here is how people are interpreting what they mean by "diverges from the original." Some people are assuming that means the plot will go totally off the rails and be something completely different from the original, but many of their comments, even the ones Obsidian posted above, seem to indicate that what they mean is more along the lines of taking bigger liberties with what happened originally and adding new stuff.

Chapter 4 was a big divergence, the honey bee inn was noted as something they considered a big change as Eerie noted, adding Sephiroth a bunch was a big change, having them fight him was a huge change, and yet the story itself is still on course more or less. I think that's what they mean. Some scenarios may play out very differently, new plotlines will be introduced, many liberties will be taken with the original material probably even more than in the first part, but the original plot will still be the framework that is followed. I think that's what the deal is.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Some people here (Mako obv but also others, I can't remember who-all) are arguing that Sephiroth has travelled backwards in time from a future which has already happened on that timeline in order to alter that timeline so that future won't happen, but we already know he's going to fail because if he hadn't failed that future would no longer exist for him to travel back from.

Depictions of multiverse theory in fiction often treat time travel as fundamentally synonomous with universe/timeline hopping. In other words, it may not be possible for Seph to travel backwards within his own universe; it may only be possible for him to travel "sideways" to the desired time period in an alternate timeline that's "slower" than the pace of the universe he hails from.

Think of different time periods in these instances less as a "when" and more a "where." Their personal calendars may be asynchronous, with it being September 0007 in one (Zack's Last Stand), December 0007 in another (President Shinra's death), and seven seconds from the end of the world in yet another -- but from the perspective of the wider multiverse observing these three individual lines of time, all are the up-to-date present moment.

That's what @cold_spirit and I suspect we're dealing with anyway. The developers could still do something off the wall.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Thanks, Tres, that makes sense.
I guess what I'm not understanding is this: what exactly are the limits to Sephiroth's powers, and are those limits observed consistently?

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

Thanks, Tres, that makes sense.
I guess what I'm not understanding is this: what exactly are the limits to Sephiroth's powers, and are those limits observed consistently?

We don't know yet to the first; and probably not, but I'm hopeful on the second. lol

 

[cold_spirit]

Added more to my ongoing timeline diagram. The squiggle just represents an obscenely long period of time. The "???" is the big mystery. Did Sephiroth sidestep to another timeline? Did Aerith attempt to follow? Are they from the timeline where the original game took place? Did their sidestep result in the creation of the Whispers? All that is what I'm leaning towards, but I'm also keeping an open mind to whatever SE throws at us.

 

[ultima786]

But we already know they are in different timelines... ?

Toriyama: "An important theme of this story is “Loss.” If all characters you see are able to survive in the future, then perhaps that would be in a different world."

But what does “different world” mean? I’d rather it be the Lifestream. Maybe our dead characters don’t realize they have returned yet and are having trouble “letting go” and dissolving into the Lifestream.

What if Sephiroth’s plan to have “our world become a part of it one day…” is simply to create the Promised Land?

The promised Land was always seemingly within the Lifestream. What if Sephiroth has learned how to manipulate the Lifestream and is planning to simply destroy the world and be the ruler of all Life within the Lifestream?

You heard it here first, folks.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I really think it's grasping at straws to keep believing that the characters like Zack or Biggs aren't really alive and are simply residing in the Lifestream version of the Farplane or something, at this point. I get not wanting to swallow the Time Travel Tea being served with the Remake Meal, but I don't think substitutions are possible at this restaurant.

Like, it's been drilled into our heads that they're alive. And the living don't reside in the Lifestream. A "different world" is the same terminology used in XIII-2 to describe visiting parallel or branching timelines that basically show history on vastly different courses than before. This kind of story isn't unprecedented, in fact this is Toriyama and Kitase's familiar territory.

That plan for Sephiroth sounds exactly like what he did in the OG, so I don't quite see that as being illustrative of the new plot threads going forward. But I do believe this certainly does have to do with Sephiroth trying to make his ideal Promised Land a reality. Maybe he's trying to create a superficial utopia that overlaps the Planet's true fate and willingly get humanity and the life of the Planet to submit itself to him. Who knows. But it's clear he wishes to avert the future end of the Planet to ensure its perpetual survival, so he can end it on his terms.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Double post for an interesting post.

Looks like we don't have to worry about them skipping the Huge Materia quest.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1417861892102492170

 

[Obsidian Fire]

Depictions of multiverse theory in fiction often treat time travel as fundamentally synonomous with universe/timeline hopping. In other words, it may not be possible for Seph to travel backwards within his own universe; it may only be possible for him to travel "sideways" to the desired time period in an alternate timeline that's "slower" than the pace of the universe he hails from.

And yet one of the most famous time-travel stories of all time, Back to the Future, runs on there being only one timeline that exists that keeps getting rewritten. The characters don't "hop" dimentions or timelines. They instead to travel *backwards* in time to change things to nudge the current timeline in a different direction and then travel *forwards* to their "present" time to make sure they nudged the timeline in the right direction... And then keep repeating the same process several times over, each time traveling back to a different point in the past to nudge the timeline in different directions.

So far... Remake *seems* to follow such a "rewrite the timeline" logic pretty well. Even the main players in the time-travel of Remake match up *really* well to the main characters in BTTF. Sephiroth is a dead ringer for a "Biff" character (purposely changing the future to suit himself). Aerith is the "Doc Brown" (takes a longer to come around to the idea of changing the future, but once she does, she goes full in on it). The "Marty" is ironically... the Whispers/Feelers. They both want to exist in the Future and are *trying* to keep the Past on track (making sure Marty's Mom falls in love with the right person vs. making sure the people who impacted Fate a lot impact it in the same way this time around). Cloud fits best as "Marty's Mom" from the first two movies (the person everyone going back in time is trying to nudge in the right direction for *their* ideal version of the Future to come about).

There's a lot more versions of time-travel out there than "universe/timeline hopping". They're just usually a lot harder for people to wrap their heads around when it comes to explanations (and I'd argue the ramifications of such time-travel are a lot more narrativly interesting than the ramifications of "universe/timeline hopping" is). Thing is... FFVII has a lot of weird stuff going on in it, so it's... kinda the perfect place to *not* do "universe/timeline hopping" and instead do something else where the stakes of the time-travel matter a lot more (at least in theory).

Some good explorations of the different kinds of Time-Travel and their narrative ramifications (and some common pitfalls).

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

The only time travel stories I like are the ones when somebody goes back in time to "fix" something, fixes it, and is immediately obliterated from existence.

IIRC, didn't Marty start fading when it looked like his mother might end up with someone other than his dad? He and Doc didn't go back in time in order to fix anything, they were just nerds messing around with a time machine. It was only once they'd gone back in time that they realised Marty needed to intervene in order to bring his mum and dad together and so ensure his own birth. See, that makes sense.

 

[Obsidian Fire]

The time-travel in Back to the Future is kicked off when the terrorists Doc Brown stole uranium from (to power the time-travel device) shoot him and *really do* kill him right in front of Marty. Marty then goes back to the past to (a) escape from the terrorists and (b) to warn Doc Brown about how he's going to die so that Doc Brown can *prevent* it. Doc Brown doesn't want to hear about it because he doesn't want the future changed.

While waiting for Doc Brown to fix the time-travel machine (because it got shot by the terrorists and got broken) Marty *accidentally* runs into his mom during the event where she fell for his dad and she falls for him instead. This makes Marty start to disapear from photgraphs (and Real Life later on) and kicks off Marty's goal of getting his parents back together (and making them into cooler parents in the process.

Over the course of the movie, Doc Brown gets over his aversion to changing the future and in the years between Marty traveling back to the "present" and the "present", Doc Brown reads Marty's note about how he dies in the "present" and makes *sure* he won't end up dead that time around.

Back to the Future 2 and 3 are all *about* changing the future by going back to the past *on purpose* with multiple time-travelers traveling to different points in the past (and back) all in an effort for them to get a present and future they really want to live in. The series *does* make it really obvious that the future *is not* set in stone though and little changes can have everything big effects to inconsequential effects provided they're the *right* changes being made.

 

[Makoeyes987]

Yeah, but I don't think Back to the Future is applicable to this at all.

We have two Clouds, two Buster Swords, two Stamps, at least two Sephiroths, commentary about there being a possible other world where people who live past their tragedies may reside in, and the fact there's clearly separate histories where one aligns with the proper progression and experiences that make up what happened previously in FFVII, and then this other history where things that never happened (such as Zack surviving), are happening before our eyes.

That's just not indicative of a single timeline that's merely changing itself over and over again. There's a delineation of consequences and events that happen one way, and then the other way elsewhere. That doesn't mean they aren't linked but they're not casual or the same "timeline."