[Spoilers] Material Ultimania Plus discussion
- Thread starter Eerie
- Start date
I don't know about any of you, but I've had three near-death experiences. Maybe one of them wasn't 'near death' but 'actual death' and I'm now living in an alternate timeline. I wonder how my kids in the other timeline are getting on. Hope they're okay without their mum.
ultima786
Pro Adventurer
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- ultima
It appears to me that Toriyama is trying to tell us the character is dead. Period. Loss is still a theme of the story. But alive in some other way. I can’t help but read this as, they’re gone, but death isn’t death because they are always alive in our hearts and death is movement to the next world (the promised land).
I really don’t think that’s timeline stuff, but rather, afterlife stuff.
The TerrierStamp Bag in Zack’s scene is maybe symbolic of memories in the Lifestream being misrepresented.
TurquoiseHammer
Pro Adventurer
I think we need another pair of eyes on the "different world" interview response, or better yet a scan of the Japanese. Audrey is a great asset to the fandom but she has made mistakes before, mainly because she's pressured to blaze through content so quickly. If I had to give my interpretation based on her translation, I'd say Toriyama is obliquely confirming that Jessie has also survived, but she and Biggs are in a different timeline (i.e., the one where Zack survived). I think he's saying that "loss" is an essential theme in FFVII, and deaths aren't just being erased willy nilly—there is significance to these characters surviving in an alternate timeline (perhaps they counterbalance other tragedies in that timeline).
Ordering from PlayAsia with my damn Gematsu coupon was a bad idea. My copy hasn't even shipped!
Ordering from PlayAsia with my damn Gematsu coupon was a bad idea. My copy hasn't even shipped!
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- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
People have looked at the scan and the Japanese and it says "world." I don't think she's mistaken, there's nothing to indicate a separate meaning or misunderstanding here. Hopefully you'll get your copy soon.
I agree that he's telling us that loss is still a theme of this story, but Nomura has also stated quite clearly we see some unexpected survivals in the ending. They're clearly described as being alive and all. "Alive in some other way" like, "they live on in our hearts" would be... silly lol. Like, you don't emphasize and show off these characters as being alive, surviving and then backtrack so deceptively like that. That just seems flippant with the material and writing. I mean, I do think that they may have died in the present timeline, but there's a clear indicator that something is up elsewhere. These two concepts aren't mutually exclusive from each other and can be genuinely explored in compelling and emotional ways. Sci-fi does it all the time, and FFVII is firmly rooted in the sci-fi genre. And once again, time travel is firmly in the wheelhouse of Toriyama and Kitase. This is a genre they're not just experienced in writing in, they enjoy it.
TurquoiseHammer
Pro Adventurer
I wasn't so much talking about the specific phrase "different world" as the whole paragraph. It would be nice get a more idiomatic translation of the last sentence in particular.
And thanks, me too! Might cancel and use a different service.
ph14basicbitch
shinra merch buyer
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- koda
Uhhhhhhhhh hi I own the Ultimania Plus and was linked this thread.
Toriyama's quote... Hmm... reading it in Japanese, I guess I would say it's, "But, since 'loss' is a central theme, wouldn't a future where all of the characters live result in a different world?"
I see this as him asking a rhetorical, hypothetical question about FF7 as a whole. Like, yes, you see Biggs. Sure, maybe Jessie lived too, who knows. But, if the end result is everyone lives, then why is the story about loss?
Toriyama's quote... Hmm... reading it in Japanese, I guess I would say it's, "But, since 'loss' is a central theme, wouldn't a future where all of the characters live result in a different world?"
I see this as him asking a rhetorical, hypothetical question about FF7 as a whole. Like, yes, you see Biggs. Sure, maybe Jessie lived too, who knows. But, if the end result is everyone lives, then why is the story about loss?
ph14basicbitch
shinra merch buyer
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- koda
Oh, it seems I can't edit my posts.
While the text does literally say "different world", since it's talking about the hypothetical future of the in-game world of a 24 year old established video game, I think "result in the world being different" would be a more natural English way of phrasing this?
While the text does literally say "different world", since it's talking about the hypothetical future of the in-game world of a 24 year old established video game, I think "result in the world being different" would be a more natural English way of phrasing this?
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
That's... Not the same thing and then the previous statement about "loss" makes no sense. Please, don't assume the Japanese translation and meaning would be that esoteric and ambiguous.
It's the same way one would describe there being a literal different world from the one we're in. I don't know why people think a straightforward sentence translated and looked over by a reliable translator and then others is this ambiguous. Audrey literally talked about this text on stream because people seem to think this is hard to extrapolate in context but it's clear. A separate world. That meaning isn't that hard to convey.
It's the same way one would describe there being a literal different world from the one we're in. I don't know why people think a straightforward sentence translated and looked over by a reliable translator and then others is this ambiguous. Audrey literally talked about this text on stream because people seem to think this is hard to extrapolate in context but it's clear. A separate world. That meaning isn't that hard to convey.
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ph14basicbitch
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- koda
So you think the phrase "僕らはお互いに住む世界が違うのだ" means that the speaker and the person they're talking to live in literally physically different separate alternate dimensional worlds? Rather than, you know, figuratively living in different worlds, like the English expression? And also, you claim that Japanese would never be esoteric or ambiguous?
Interesting. Fascinating. I one day hope to achieve your level of Japanese.
Interesting. Fascinating. I one day hope to achieve your level of Japanese.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Considering that the Remake story literally has the premise of multiple timelines, time travel, and alternate worlds baked into the bestiary of the final bosses of the game like Whisper Harbinger, Rubrum, Viridi, and Corceo (the last three being spiritual versions of the silver-haired Sephiroth Remnants of Advent Children) ... Yes. Yes I do.
And again, Audrey already addressed this. Her translation is clear and understandable.
That very same verbage of calling alternate timelines different "worlds" is how it's exactly described in FFXIII-2. Another FF game directed by Toriyama and produced by Kitase.
This is not rocket science or hard to understand. This is exactly how they've characterized the concept both in their own language, and localization. I don't get why it's hard to accept.
TurquoiseHammer
Pro Adventurer
I have to imagine Toriyama would have a strong incentive to equivocate when answering a question like this. "The worlds we each inhabit would be different" isn't quite what I imagined the Japanese to be; it's a little less explicit. I do agree with Mako that multiple/alternate timelines are what's going on in the story, but this quote isn't putting any nails in any coffins.
ph14basicbitch
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- koda
Idk Mako you seem to be confusing my post with a post that says "the alternate timeline / universe / etc things don't make sense" or "creators said there is no alternate timeline or alternate world", or that, "because Toriyama said [x], all of [y] is invalidated". But uh, I'm pretty sure I didn't say any of that.
As for Audrey, I have DMed Audrey before on Twitter in regards to things she's posted. She thanked me for catching her misreadings. She isn't infallible. I actually have no idea what she even translated this as - someone linked me this thread, asked me about because there was a request for another translation.
As for Audrey, I have DMed Audrey before on Twitter in regards to things she's posted. She thanked me for catching her misreadings. She isn't infallible. I actually have no idea what she even translated this as - someone linked me this thread, asked me about because there was a request for another translation.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
I don't think it's necessarily putting "nails in coffins" either, but as a cohesive statement that makes sense in context of FFVII-R and Toriyama's words, Audrey's translation is accurate and doesn't really need this much parsing.
Toriyama is saying that a major theme of FFVII-R is "loss" (in the sense of loss of life, which also matches up with the theme of the OG). So, if we see every character who has seemingly died miraculously survive, then with that theme of "loss" in mind, maybe we're only seeing these surviving characters in a "different world." Because the theme is "loss." How does one reconcile that supposed theme with there being a clear opposite outcome of said theme being shown in front of us?
How that different world unfolds or reveals itself is a mystery but the context and syntax makes sense.
Fair enough, she isn't infallible but this was addressed before. I'm not saying she's perfect but I'm not seeing the reason for doubt, especially given the context of what's asked and what Toriyama gives as his answer.
Here's the tweet where she offered her translation.
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- AKA
- TresDias
Perhaps you should look at the example sentence @ph14basicbitch was asking about ... XD
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Anywho! My copy of the book is waiting for me when I get home from work, so I can throw my potentially flawed interpretation into the ring soon as well.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Lol I get what you're saying, yeah that sentence wouldn't actually mean that in everyday speech. I was just referring to context implied in Toriyama's answer about dead people seemingly all surviving in a story that's supposed to carry the theme of "loss."
I do hope you come up with a third version, Tres! That will make this even more fun. 
TurquoiseHammer
Pro Adventurer
I think when Toriyama got this question, his first instinct was to reassure fans that characters aren't just going to be brought back from the brink of (or beyond) death on a whim—because to be fair, this does seem to happen to FIVE characters in the game! To me the emphasis seems to be on preserving the theme of "loss," and then by way of explaining these frivolous "resurrections," Toriyama offers that three of them (Zack, Biggs, Jessie) may only have happened in a different world/timeline.
ph14basicbitch
shinra merch buyer
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- koda
Hm. I don't quite follow how Audrey got "in a different world" from ちがう世界になる, but it's cool. Multiple interpretations and resources are always nice to have. 
Cae Lumis
Lv. 25 Adventurer
Hm. I don't quite follow how Audrey got "in a different world" from ちがう世界になる, but it's cool. Multiple interpretations and resources are always nice to have.
Its the "chigau" doing that, which can be translated a bit more literally as "differently" or "wrong" depending on context, and if you take it with what Toriyama is talking about (namely that the theme of the Original Final Fantasy VII is about loss), saying "This world would be different from the original" is a valid way of rendering it. In addition, seeing that Sekai does make me think Toriyama isn't being literal in the sense of "Zack, Biggs, Wedge, & Jessie are in a new timeline", but a in general and overall "then the world of this story would be different, right?"
TurquoiseHammer
Pro Adventurer
Ohh, koda, I thought you were saying Toriyama literally used the phrase "住む世界が違う" in his response... like, as if speaking from the perspective of the surviving characters. Big derp.
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Toriyama's referring to the Remake though. He's speaking about the events of the FFVII Remake, where Biggs survives and Jessie might be saved or might not be saved. Within that question and answer, the OG FFVII isn't being referred to at all. Toriyama made that statement regarding the theme of "loss" towards the Remake.
ph14basicbitch
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- koda
Ya JP modifiers can be funky. (I think of the fish and cat chart...) But... hm, yeah I don't really see it as "literally another world / timeline" here either. He proposes a hypothetical future, for a hypothetical world.
Ohhhhhhh, sorry lol. I was just using a random example sentence.
Here you are: 登場人物の全員が生きつづける未来だとちがう世界になってしまうかもしれません
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Yes, Toriyama isn't literally using the phrase "timeline" in that answer, and that's not what's been stated by Audrey's translation. However, in interpreting the context, a "hypothetical world" doesn't really communicate anything by itself. A different "World"/"世界" is a term that has been used numerous times in several FFs, particularly FFXIII-2 which Toriyama directed, as a way of referring to different eras or timelines, where events unfold differently and carry multiple possibilities. They're called different worlds, universes, etc.
So a hypothetical future where everyone lives, that's a different world from the story that's themed on loss carries a certain context. I'm not sure what other meaning could be implied in him saying the story is themed on "loss" and then a future could happen where a different world is shown where everyone lives?
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