Star Wars: Episode 7, 8... and BEYOND!

[Charles Xavier]

Just got home after the movie. Not quite awake right now, but some random thoughts:

Spoiler

1. Pacing issues, the movie SERIOUSLY didin't need to be 2.5 hours long.
2. Cop-out climax on the fight between Luke and Kylo Ren, which leads me to:
3. Luke's death: didn't like it one bit. I'm totally chill having to kill the character off, but the way he died just didn't do enough justice for me. At least he could have had ONE REAL lightsaber duel before kicking it.
4. Loved Yoda's cameo. Hilarious when he struck that lightning bolt to destroy the hut when Luke couldn't bring himself to. Great to hear Frank Oz again after so long.
5. Best scene probably was Kylo Ren killing Snoke and he and Rey taking on the red guards.
6. Too many questions still unanswered. We'll never know if Snoke was truly Darth Plagueis or not (unless I'm missing something here?).
7. Also, nothing on Rey's parents, except the revelation that they were junk people who didn't give two shits about their child (if I remember correctly). Though I may or may not be starting to question if Rey might still be Luke's daughter? Any chance?
8. I laughed when Luke casually chucked his lightsaber off the cliff when it was offered to him by Rey.
9. Humor's lacking a bit I felt.

So my verdict (for now) is 3/5. Underwhelming, disappointing and just okay at best, but I need to give this some more time and thought. Maybe I'll change my mind, but I can say for certain that any reviews from critics or fans clamoring and saying that this is THE best SW movie ever made is far too much of overstatement.

Tired as fudge right now so maybe some more thoughts later.

 

[Lex]

I feel the way Force feels about this, his thoughts most closely mirror my own.

@Interslicery,

Spoiler

I actually disagree with your point about nothing happening. The rebellion was completely decimated and our primary protagonist /antagonist developed a shit-tonne.

More general, spoilery and disjointed thoughts as they pop into my mind:

Spoiler

I spent the first 20 mins of the movie honestly... bored. I had no idea what was going to happen and I was really looking forward to it, but it didn't grab me in the beginning. I knew it would eventually, and it did. I'll probably enjoy the opening segment more when I rewatch it.

"Force Island" seemed pretty cool. I liked the moment of fear from Luke when Rey didn't hesitate to check out the "island's darkness". When she physically popped down there later was also super cool. Has that place appeared in any EU stuff?

Leia's floaty moment in space tbh was all I ever wanted for her character. I was hoping she'd physically use the force in a more direct way, but that was pretty cool nonetheless, even if I can understand why it might have been a bit controversial for general fans. Completely exceeded expectations when she recovered and had a part to play in the rest of the movie, but I've got to say I think they missed an opportunity with the footage they currently have to have explained her absence in the next film. I can't see any way for them to do that without awkwardness now unless they've kept some footage of her back for it. "Leia's the only one of the original trio still (physically) around but she's off doing shopping somewhere for the finale of this trilogy!".

Mark Hamill's best performance in anything, ever. I have to say, I got chills at certain points with him. It's been a long long time since I movie has managed to surprise me as much as this one did, and the moment we realise he's projecting is one I'll remember for a long long time. Guaranteed to be a force-ghost in the next movie. I also loved the moment he sat with Leia.

YODA! Hello!!!! He looked a bit weird but honestly I loved that moment - I think they took care of the possibility of it being a cheap cameo by having it just be between him and Luke. And they stayed true to original movie Yoda! Calm and hilarious rather than jumping about in poor CGI with a lightsabre. Amazing IMO.

Time to talk about Rey and Kylo. I couldn't be happier with their development in this movie. By the time this movie ends you have two developed characters and a balance in the force - Rey who chooses light but feels a pull to the dark, and Kylo who chooses dark but feels a pull to the light. I don't see Kylo Ren having any sort of Vader moment now, he's very solidly chosen a path as Rey also has. I really enjoyed their scenes together, particularly when they were kind of feeling each other out through the force (or Snoke I suppose) and then later when they fought together.

I don't give a shit about snoke.

I think it's hilarious that fans theorised so hard about Snoke in general and Rey's parentage for it to turn out the way it did, but I'm still not super convinced her parents were "nobodies". Time will tell, but I won't be disappointed if that really is the case.

I'll think of more to say later.

 

[Tetsujin]

Few more spoiler impressions:

Spoiler

Snoke throne room.

Ben and Rey kicking ass together. Best fight scene in Star Wars, yes? Yes.

I don't know how I feel about Snoke gone and Kylo being the new Supreme Leader. I like him as a character but I don't know if I feel him being the "big bad". This is one of those things where I really need to see where they go with that in the next movie.
Cutting Snoke in half was a well done moment though, lol.

Phasma. Good thing I never gave a shit because she went out like a chump. Boba Fett v.2 confirmed.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Spoiler

Finn & Rose's trip to Canto Bight AKA Casino Night Zone is really, REALLY important for what the larger point of the film is.

In the prequel era, and even in to the original trilogy, we're always looking at what are ultimately the machinations of Darth Sidious, and the push against them drawn from the way that conflict unfolded, and it's always been about Army A Vs. Army B. We spend a lot of time looking at Side A & Side B, but not enough time really gazing into the gritty underbelly of the war machine itself. Like DJ points out, the rich are profiting off of the conflict, no matter WHO they're supporting. Fighting to make sure Side A wins isn't really what ultimately matters, and good guys and bad guys are manufactured concepts that really just drive that war machine (the prequel era being a HUGE example of that).

With the New Republic totally and utterly decimated, and the Resistance boiling down to nothing left — who joins their cause and why? Why join the cause at all? What's the fight actually FOR? It can all be distilled to the scene with Finn & Rose on the speeders. You're fighting to save what you love — not destroy what you hate.

If you look at Return of the Jedi, that's what Luke's battle with Vader was all about, and why he didn't fall to the Dark Side. He fought to save the part of Anakin he knew was good, whereas in Empire, he fought to destroy Darth Vader. He tosses away his lightsaber rather than destroy the Emperor. Winning isn't about just being victorious in the conflict, it's about actually helping the people who need it.

Finn is THE person who represents that because he's a defector. You could win by blowing up a battle station with hundreds of thousands of enemy troops, or you could win by dismantling what the First Order is at its core, so that everyone stands against it with you. The end of the film is all about showing that the big battles FEEL satisfying, but they're not effective at actually WINNING, and it's little acts like freeing a bunch of abused race horses that actually build up a reason for people to believe in you and rally to your cause. While Casino Night Zone feels like a pointless side quest, they actually are the only ones who succeeded in winning the biggest battle that the Resistance is currently losing.

I think this is also the biggest disconnect with a lot of people who just WANT the big space battles, heroic moments, and fairytale storyline, but this digs deeper in to what that conflict MEANS in a world 30 years later, when the First Order rose out of the darkness, because war makes money. How do you actually STOP that, and really, truly WIN?

That's where TLJ leaves us, and why IX is gonna be so interesting to see how it tackles that issue.

X

 

[Lex]

Spoiler

Finn & Rose's trip to Canto Bight AKA Casino Night Zone is really, REALLY important for what the larger point of the film is.

You're not wrong, however

Spoiler

the extreme meandering is a totally valid criticism and definitely one I share. I didn't hate these sequences, but they were done in a way and interspersed around other shit that's far more interesting. Most people understand that they play an important plot and set up role, but the fat could certainly have been trimmed.

 

[Tetsujin]

I agree with Lex but also X made me appreciate a little bit more what they were going for with that side plot

Another thing that actually really bugs me:

Spoiler

Okay so...Luke.

Decided for a brief moment to maybe possibly kill his own nephew in his sleep.

Whoa. Hold the fuck on. I'm not sure if I'm okay with this!

This is the man who faced Darth Vader and said "I can save him. There's still good in him."
This is the man who decided despite his own father having been on the dark side of the Force for two decades, depite having been the right-hand man of the Emperor for so long and despite having committed numerous atrocities on behalf of his master and the Empire and for his own selfish desires...that he can save him. That he can still turn him away from this.
The man who threw away his lightsaber in the end and told the Emperor politely to sod off. And was rewarded for his faith in his father at the very end.

And this man now - however briefly and even if it was followed by immediate shame and regret - decides maybe it's best to kill his own nephew in his sleep? When the only "crime" Ben committed is being very powerful and susceptible to Snoke's influence?

That honestly seemed very out of character and it really bugs me. I don't think this is Luke.
And I now understand some of the comments Mark Hamill made before the movie came out. He said he disagreed heavily with how Rian Johnson saw his character. And when it comes to this moment I feel the same. That just...felt wrong.

Opinions?

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I know what ya mean, Lex but I think that part gets glanced over too much so I wanted to call it out a bit. It could've been tighter, but I think that it's about the only time you felt like you could breathe a bit during the film, so I kinda enjoyed it's looseness. Also, on Tets' point: I also felt that way about it at first, until…

Spoiler

…I thought back to the fact that Luke isn't the best at emotional control when it comes to others. He abandoned his training on Dagobah when Han & Leia were in danger to face Vader. When Vader threatened to turn Leia to the Dark Side in RotJ, he lost his fucking mind and went after Vader with pure rage, and it was only after seeing Vader's own severed robotic hand that he snapped back and remembered himself.

If he reached into Ben's mind and felt that same sort of deep corruption threatening his students and everything that he loved, that's where Luke is fundamentally the weakest. I believe that he had that split second of wanting to kill Ben to stop it, and caught himself a split second too late.

I think that this is hard to digest, because we don't get to see the mostly 30 years of Luke being the paragon of awesomeness that he was in every moment until then. We only get to see him post the OVERWHELMING consequences of a split second of weakness, and broken.

That's also why I felt that the scene where Yoda comes back to him was so important for the two of them, because it really helps to show that Luke's weakness is always when he's focusing on the future and not the present. Worrying about Leia turning and evil Ben, and not reigning in his own anger and darkness that those bring out of him. Yoda helps Luke internalize and accept his failure isn't a failure, but a learning experience, and that's what given Luke the presence to project himself across the Galaxy to an army to stand up to Ben in a way that he couldn't bear to in person.

Also, I love that Luke says, "See ya around, kid." — because he is obviously using a Han Solo line as a way to really underscore his connection to Ben in a way only they would understand (including specifically leaving the dice behind long enough for Ben to find). He gets to prove that even if a failure seems utterly crippling and character-destroying, it can be overcome if you look at it as a learning experience and not a failure (like basically every character had to learn throughout the film).

This is one of those films that the more I think about all the little details, the more I REALLY like it. I think I'd like it even more upon a second viewing a in like a week or so. It feels like it really benefits giving it time to digest how it's different, and then dive back into it.



X

 

[Carlie]

I feel deflated and with so many mixed feelings. I'm fully in favor of breaking away from the Star Wars recipe but it has to work and there were a lot of parts in this movie where it didn't. Maybe I need to watch it again or let sink in for a few more ours to appreciate it more, I don't know.

For tonight I just want to focus on one of my favorite scenes

Spoiler

and that is Luke and Leia's reunion. It was lovely and touching, and it just brought back the sadness of Carrie being gone and we will never get another scene of these two together.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

I'd read a bunch of the tl;dr spoiler tags and share thoughts. I've found that chatting about it has really helped me appreciate it a lot more, and helped settle on things I was wrestling with about it.

I also think that it'll be tough to know how to feel about this chapter without IX to give us a better feeling of the whole picture.





X

 

[Tetsujin]

I think a lot of people had a similar feeling when Empire first came out. Now it's a fan favorite but I heard back then it was a bit more divisive and mixed in fan response.

Spoiler

One of the things I wanted was more of the protagonists sharing scenes together as I really like the Rey/Finn and Finn/Poe dynamics and their chemistry but in this movie they're mostly split up.

This is something that Empire did too which I never really gave much thought because obviously the entire trilogy was out already and Jedi united the main characters again so any such craving was instantly satisfied.

(nevermind the fact I watched Empire *after* Jedi. )

 

[Charles Xavier]

A few more thoughts:

Spoiler

1. The Stormtroopers hardly any role. They literally were just cannon-fodder in this film.
2. Still feeling bummed out that there was no real fight between Luke and Kylo Ren. I was honestly looking forward to that the most. And may I point out that this is probably the first SW movie (not counting 'Rogue One') NOT to have any lightsaber duels?
3. That scene from the trailer of Rey running across the field at night and with her lightsaber is nowhere in this movie.

I'm curious to see where IX will go.

Spoiler

I'd predict it'll be at least a year if not more, after the events of this film, as I'd assume Leia would have passed on off-screen between movies

.

With Fisher's death and the sudden shift of director, how significantly do you think IX will be different?

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Insofar as IX is concerned, it was always designed to be Leia-centric, which can't be the case, and is likely related to the directorial difficulties that's why JJ is finishing out the trilogy, which I feel is ultimately for the best, because it'll be the cohesion that will ultimately tie the trilogy together.

Spoiler

Given that TFA & TLJ are literally back-to-back, and we end with a totally shattered Resistance, they're providing ample opportunity to give space between VIII & IX. It's clear that the message about what the Resistance needs to do and what it needs to be involves fundamentally reaching out and rebuilding all over, so I'd expect a time gap of some significance to set the stage and let the heavy developments really set in.

It also provided solid ground for Leia's passing to feel natural in universe, so that it doesn't seem like a bunch of handwaving to cover for Carrie's own sudden passing. I figure we'll see something like we do in RotJ, where it's later, but it doesn't feel forever away. In VI, Luke came back in black, force-choking Gamorrean Guards, giving away R2 & 3PO, and with a new lightsaber, but them rescuing Han (who was on ice) made it clear that they did groundwork to infiltrate Jabba's palace with Lando, but there is also a clear time gap of some length to let everything settle in. I'd expect that same general thing with IX.

The biggest thing is that TESB left you with huge reveals, and TLJ left you with all of the mysteries rendered ultimately meaningless in the face of the question of the identity and future of the Resistance itself.

X

 

[Charles Xavier]

Spoiler

Those amphibious hut maids were good for a laugh

Spoiler

Was anyone here thinking of Final Fantasy IX's Treno or Final Fantasy VII's Gold Saucer when Finn and Tico were in Canto Bite?

 

[Lex]

I agree with Lex but also X made me appreciate a little bit more what they were going for with that side plot

Another thing that actually really bugs me:

Spoiler

Okay so...Luke.

Decided for a brief moment to maybe possibly kill his own nephew in his sleep.

Whoa. Hold the fuck on. I'm not sure if I'm okay with this!

This is the man who faced Darth Vader and said "I can save him. There's still good in him."
This is the man who decided despite his own father having been on the dark side of the Force for two decades, depite having been the right-hand man of the Emperor for so long and despite having committed numerous atrocities on behalf of his master and the Empire and for his own selfish desires...that he can save him. That he can still turn him away from this.
The man who threw away his lightsaber in the end and told the Emperor politely to sod off. And was rewarded for his faith in his father at the very end.

And this man now - however briefly and even if it was followed by immediate shame and regret - decides maybe it's best to kill his own nephew in his sleep? When the only "crime" Ben committed is being very powerful and susceptible to Snoke's influence?

That honestly seemed very out of character and it really bugs me. I don't think this is Luke.
And I now understand some of the comments Mark Hamill made before the movie came out. He said he disagreed heavily with how Rian Johnson saw his character. And when it comes to this moment I feel the same. That just...felt wrong.

Opinions?

I agree, but I think this can be easily

Spoiler

headcanon'd. IMO Luke saw the darkness in Kylo and his "moment of weakness" was actually a massive Vader flashback/ flashforward. I think he realised in that moment what Kylo would become, and felt he could end it before he became a massive villain. Even with the potential for redemption, Luke's thought process was likely overtaken by the need to stop another Vader rising.

It's still problematic in some ways, but that's how I feel about it. I'm not super mad and I don't think it's too out of character given the context.

 

[Ghost X]

Spoiler

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard Rian Johnson isn't uber knowledgeable about the franchise, so any "out of character" stuff I thread through that explanation hole.

 

[ForceStealer]

Spoiler

Also, I love that Luke says, "See ya around, kid." — because he is obviously using a Han Solo line as a way to really underscore his connection to Ben in a way only they would understand

Spoiler

I also loved this, both for that reason, and I thought it meant he was going to survive the movie...:/ I know because of Force stuff it's true anyway...but still.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I watched it last night and haven't finished digesting it yet. I probably won't be finished until the next one comes out. For now, I'm just thankful to have the way X's brain works around to give footing to that process.

Regardless of the rest of it, though, I will say it was disappointing to

Spoiler

introduce and then quickly and so unceremoniously kill off the A-Wing pilot who had the Blue Leader call sign.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

Spoiler

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've heard Rian Johnson isn't uber knowledgeable about the franchise, so any "out of character" stuff I thread through that explanation hole.

Given that all of the directors work incredibly closely with the Lucasfilms Story Group who are literally the most knowledgeable people about everything Star Wars on the planet, I don't believe that at all.





X

 

[Clement Rage]

Given my ridiculous overreaction to TFA when it came out I don't want to say too much, I still don't know what to make of this.

Spoiler

I never cared who Rey or Snoke was, so that didn't bother me. I kind of suspected before going in that we'd end with Snoke dead and Kylo Supreme Leader.

Save v Destroy is such a brilliant theme, it's normally one I'd be 100pc behind, but everyone in this story is just trying to save people, and all the plans lead to catastrophe after catastrophe, sacrifice after sacrifice. Everyone's attempts to save people just killed more of them. There's so few survivors that they fit on the Falcon.

Adam Driver really sold Kylo well, he had probably the best performance of the film.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

So, in talking to someone else today, I happened to stumble on something in conversation that makes me think that IX has the potential to make some REALLY big things from what VII & VIII have given us:

Spoiler

VII set up for a lot of misdirection, in hinting at the sort of classic Star Wars questions that we all wanted answers to and were expecting to be given – which makes VIII seem like it's going off the rails, but it has a VERY clear direction where it's pushing IX. That direction (as I've mentioned before) is all about why the Resistance matters, and that REAL victory isn't just blowing up the bad guys, because truly winning is much more complicated.

The whole reason the First Order exists at all is that the Rebellion and the New Republic ultimately failed true victory against the Sith & the Empire. That's the reason the cycle has looped back around through 3 Skywalkers in the Skywalker Saga. That's even why VII and IV are so incredibly similar. It sets up to expose that while they're both satisfying, they're also fundamentally flawed, and the purpose is to learn from the mistakes, and how to change to do better and give a real victory.

That's what the whole film of VIII is all about in every single piece. What makes this even bigger is the fact that Kylo Ren's journey is something that is INCREDIBLY important in its developments:

Ben is like all of the Skywalkers in being able to be tempted towards the Dark Side. Anakin was scared to the Dark Side by fear of Padme's Death, and Luke almost falls when he's afraid of what could happen to others when looking into the future, and it's even that same fear that ultimately pushed Ben over the edge. It's all about failing, and learning from those failures to improve, which Ben seems to have done on both fronts.

Kylo Ren's name change and helmet was part of his own drive to emulate Darth Vader in an attempt to become like his grandfather. Snoke intentionally shakes that resolve in order to tempt out Rey by connecting the two of them, while he poked at Ben's insecurities about his path towards the Dark Side. Ben has actually managed to achieve something that not even Darth Vader achieved – he destroyed his incredibly powerful and unmatched manipulative Dark Side Master and became the Supreme Leader of a military force that also destroyed the resistance/rebellion.

What's most interesting about this is that he manages to draw more and more power out of his own suffering, because he's exactly NOT a tactician like Snoke or Palpatine. He's alone and is constantly unsure of himself even now. If you look at the four biggest traits that he possesses, they're – Fear, Anger, Hate, and Suffering – which are the core emotions that embody the Dark Side of the Force. He's literally perfect as the main representation of the Dark Side that is needed to overcome, especially when you look at the core message of VIII being all about needing to save what you love and not destroy what you hate, you've made the task of defeating Kylo Ren and saving Ben exponentially more difficult but even more clear.

At the same time, you have the fact that the Knights of Ren are still un-revealed, and the Resistance is teased to be gathering their own Force Users. It's almost certainly building up to a culmination where we get to see what a true victory is for the Galaxy & the Force. What that is, and what it looks like is going to be incredibly interesting.

My biggest hope is that because Ben manipulated both the Light AND Dark parts of himself to gain power, and Luke mentioned the flaws of the old Jedi Order, that by the end of IX the new Jedi become about maintaining the Balance, and the Sith become about upsetting that balance.

Either way, hopefully that provides some interesting food for thought about where things could go, and why I'm more and more stoked about TLJ the longer I spend thinking about it.





X

 

[looneymoon]

Spoiler

I just got back from it and I'm glad to see I'm not the only one who reacts the way I am about this movie. There was a lot of pacing issues, and a lot of what was going on frankly felt like filler. The humour lacked a lot of punch and was sometimes awkwardly placed. A lot of the way they built up the drama took me out of the movie a bit - it almost felt like the characters were breaking the 4th wall, that they were aware they are in a Star Wars movie. The Force Awakens definitely did that too, but it felt a lot more seamless.

I did appreciate a lot about the movie though, so I feel dishonest only mentioning its faults. I felt very involved with the central conflict. The good vs evil, Rey vs Kylo, Rebels vs Order felt modern and relevant to contemporary viewers. The stakes felt real and all the crazy action sequences felt like they came with real consequence.

Overall, I liked it a lot more than Rogue One, but not quite as much as The Force Awakens. I just hope that with Episode IX they tell a tighter, more focussed story than what happened here.

 

[X-SOLDIER]

The whole cast just seems wonderful: https://twitter.com/JoonasSuotamo/status/942057576417644544





X

 

[Claymore]

Got back home from the cinema at around 4am, but needed to sleep before posting my initial thoughts. I absolutely loved it ... and I'm still buzzing even now. I loved what it did, and the individual character journeys woven throughout it. I had seen the final setting of the story when playing multiplayer in Battlefront II the other day and geeked out completely in the cinema, lol.

It was funny, it was sad, it had heart ... and not to be too corny, but it had 'balance'.

Still need to collect my thoughts and read everyone's reactions here, but I honestly loved it.


EDIT:

Love what you have written in your posts X. Completely agree 100% on your impressions.

 

[Airling]

I was super pessimistic about this film. TFA didn't do much for me personally, so I kept my expectations low for in case TLJ was more of the same. And so, I am pleasantly surprised by how great I found it to be.

My suspicions about where this is going for IX:

Spoiler

I joked before and said almost the only way I can see myself enjoying IX is if they just go "fuck it" and use something like the semi-crazy fan theory I heard that Rey is sort of a reincarnation of Anakin, in that she is a powerful force-user tasked with bringing balance. I feel like they almost went one up on that, because so many things about this point to that being true, in a way.

Snoke claims to have created the connections between Rey and Ben, but it happens again after his death. My personal off-the-wall theory: They are both to be bringers of balance, representing light and dark. They share those connections because to the force, they are two sides of the same coin. As X points out, Ben is a very good representation of the dark side. Rey is so solidly on the light side, that even physically throwing herself into the darkness yields nothing.

So, by the end of IX, I suspect the concepts of "Jedi" and "Sith" will evaporate. It seems to me that on a fundamental level, Yoda and Ben are in agreement: The wars, the fighting, the struggles, for centuries of galactic history, mainly brought about over those two groups. And so, Yoda, symbolically kills the Jedi order by letting the sacred texts burn, and Luke becomes the last person to be trained in those ways.

X mentioned that central concept of saving what you love instead of destroying what you hate, and this will become the central conflict of IX, I think, because it leaves our main protagonists in a very conflicted position: Rey does not want to see the Empire and the Sith succeed, but saving what she loves also means letting that happen, and the same for Ben with the Resistance, since they obviously care about each other.

By the end, I suspect, there will be many force users again, but instead of being Jedi or Sith, instead of adhering to the artificial barriers imposed by some people centuries ago, they will exist in the true nature of the force: Balance.

Also, I loved the fact that there was no huge fight between Luke and Ben. Raising his sword had caused the problem in the first place, and so it felt like Luke going back to the way he knew he should have done it to begin with. It was Luke being Luke again: Deliberately compassionate, no matter the cost to himself.

The pacing didn't really feel off to me. All the little things just make me more invested in the entire setting. But it's for sure not for everyone.

 

[Charles Xavier]

Spoiler

By the way, did any of you notice that small moment when General Hux was about to kill an unconscious Kylo Ren, until he woke up?