- AKA
- TresDias
Star Wars: Episode 7, 8... and BEYOND!
- Thread starter Charles Xavier
- Start date
- AKA
- X
I think that one of the best articles that I've read in a good long while is this one from a week ago:
Guest Editorial: Clarifying J.J. Abrams’ Recent Statements on Rian Johnson's Direction With The Last Jedi. It covers a lot of things that helps to look at things from TFA into TLJ, and how there are a lot of concepts that we've seen in all 3 films that were outlined as far back as 2013, to help give some context around the idea about the story going off the rails or something along those lines.
Interestingly, it lead me to a piece of a Twitter thread with Pablo Hidalgo, that made me think a lot more about the sort of nonchalant way that Luke tosses the lightsaber aside. While it is his father's lightsaber, it also carries the echo of Yoda telling him that he wouldn't need it, and that what was in the Dark Side cave was, "Only what you take with you." which in this case was his lightsaber. Additionally, it's that same thing that causes the conflict with Ben. At that point, Luke's let go of the Force and even his own lightsaber is set aside, and tossing it away, rather than giving it back to Rey is its own sort of subtle lesson.
Additionally, I found this other Twitter thread to be deeply satisfying.
X
Guest Editorial: Clarifying J.J. Abrams’ Recent Statements on Rian Johnson's Direction With The Last Jedi. It covers a lot of things that helps to look at things from TFA into TLJ, and how there are a lot of concepts that we've seen in all 3 films that were outlined as far back as 2013, to help give some context around the idea about the story going off the rails or something along those lines.
Interestingly, it lead me to a piece of a Twitter thread with Pablo Hidalgo, that made me think a lot more about the sort of nonchalant way that Luke tosses the lightsaber aside. While it is his father's lightsaber, it also carries the echo of Yoda telling him that he wouldn't need it, and that what was in the Dark Side cave was, "Only what you take with you." which in this case was his lightsaber. Additionally, it's that same thing that causes the conflict with Ben. At that point, Luke's let go of the Force and even his own lightsaber is set aside, and tossing it away, rather than giving it back to Rey is its own sort of subtle lesson.
Additionally, I found this other Twitter thread to be deeply satisfying.
X
- AKA
- TresDias
More about that here.
- AKA
- X
Solid article. Lots of excellent contextual stuff there.
Interestingly, I stumbled on an even older interview with J.J. Abrams where he talks about working from something new from George's treatments, collaborating and Rian Johnson's the script for The Last Jedi working with the one for The Force Awakens. It'll be interesting to see how much of George's original plans are in place in the final episode, since from 7 & 8, it's clear that there's a pretty sizeable chunk of things that he'd planned that ended up being used.
With all of the Palpatine stuff, I'm really wondering what kind of connections we're going to have, given how seemingly candid Ian McDiarmid seemed about George telling him that Palpatine was flat-out hard dead. Given the whole back-and-forth around the scene on Mortis where George and Dave Filoni were VERY careful around that, it feels like those rules are properly in place. We've seen the ways that Sith have circumvented death (very well documented in that article Tres just shared), and the fact that the Palpatine voice clip was apparently pulled from an archive for the trailer makes me wonder is this is gonna be something with the World Between Worlds or something related to the event that kicked off the Sequel Trilogy that was mentioned in the visual dictionary for TFA:
The Cosmic Force is something that very much has been unexplored, but was definitely an intentional point that they were setting up in the beginning. Assuming that this is at all like what Palpatine was potentially involved with when it came to Anakin, that itself is something worth looking into.
While I feel like the under water exploration of the old Death Star is definitely going to be an important thing for Episode IX, Fortress Vader is still the bigger tease that feels like it's a really prominent resource that also connects to where so much of these things have been seeded, that hasn't been followed up on in the films. While he's preoccupied, I can't help but be incredibly surprised that Adam Driver wasn't at Celebration, nor were a number of the other newer cast members. It feels like there's a BIG piece of the other side of the story that's being intentionally kept quiet (the only new character was one we know encounters our little band of heroes), and it seems like tracing back to the unseen (in the previous Saga films) piece of Vader's Legacy is a likely point for that to take place at.
It's a really good place to be thematically (especially what it means for Anakin's journey and the tone that it'd set for any confrontation there), not to mention that we're looking at the origins of the Jedi themselves throughout the series. In the Secrets of the Empire VR experience, there's a Proto Saber in Vader's castle, which is something that it seems that they wanted to be able to tie things in to later on, and it feels like this is the type of thing that would really follow up on Ben trying to finish something specifically that Anakin had started. Since we know he's been to the Forest Moon of Endor already, since he had Vader's mask, that really feels like the logical place for the story to move as it gets back into his origins, and likely the prophesy from the Prequels.
X
Interestingly, I stumbled on an even older interview with J.J. Abrams where he talks about working from something new from George's treatments, collaborating and Rian Johnson's the script for The Last Jedi working with the one for The Force Awakens. It'll be interesting to see how much of George's original plans are in place in the final episode, since from 7 & 8, it's clear that there's a pretty sizeable chunk of things that he'd planned that ended up being used.
With all of the Palpatine stuff, I'm really wondering what kind of connections we're going to have, given how seemingly candid Ian McDiarmid seemed about George telling him that Palpatine was flat-out hard dead. Given the whole back-and-forth around the scene on Mortis where George and Dave Filoni were VERY careful around that, it feels like those rules are properly in place. We've seen the ways that Sith have circumvented death (very well documented in that article Tres just shared), and the fact that the Palpatine voice clip was apparently pulled from an archive for the trailer makes me wonder is this is gonna be something with the World Between Worlds or something related to the event that kicked off the Sequel Trilogy that was mentioned in the visual dictionary for TFA:
The Cosmic Force is something that very much has been unexplored, but was definitely an intentional point that they were setting up in the beginning. Assuming that this is at all like what Palpatine was potentially involved with when it came to Anakin, that itself is something worth looking into.
While I feel like the under water exploration of the old Death Star is definitely going to be an important thing for Episode IX, Fortress Vader is still the bigger tease that feels like it's a really prominent resource that also connects to where so much of these things have been seeded, that hasn't been followed up on in the films. While he's preoccupied, I can't help but be incredibly surprised that Adam Driver wasn't at Celebration, nor were a number of the other newer cast members. It feels like there's a BIG piece of the other side of the story that's being intentionally kept quiet (the only new character was one we know encounters our little band of heroes), and it seems like tracing back to the unseen (in the previous Saga films) piece of Vader's Legacy is a likely point for that to take place at.
It's a really good place to be thematically (especially what it means for Anakin's journey and the tone that it'd set for any confrontation there), not to mention that we're looking at the origins of the Jedi themselves throughout the series. In the Secrets of the Empire VR experience, there's a Proto Saber in Vader's castle, which is something that it seems that they wanted to be able to tie things in to later on, and it feels like this is the type of thing that would really follow up on Ben trying to finish something specifically that Anakin had started. Since we know he's been to the Forest Moon of Endor already, since he had Vader's mask, that really feels like the logical place for the story to move as it gets back into his origins, and likely the prophesy from the Prequels.
X
- AKA
- TresDias
So.
@Clement Rage
@Roger
@Obsidian Fire
@X-SOLDIER
Apparently a new novel, "Master & Apprentice," was released this week. It finally gives us the precise original wording to The Prophecy of the Chosen One:
"Only through sacrifice of many Jedi will the Order cleanse the sin done to the nameless.
The danger of the past is not past, but sleeps in an egg. When the egg cracks, it will threaten the galaxy entire.
When the Force itself sickens, past and future must split and combine.
A Chosen One shall come, born of no father, and through him will ultimate balance in the Force be restored."
It pleases me infinitely to see that the actual prophecy made no mention of achieving balance by destroying the Sith. It, in fact, called for devastation of the Jedi.
My post from this past September is feeling somewhat vindicated with regard to this understanding of the Jedi Order:
All this was, indeed, just foolish and vain assumptions on the part of the Jedi Order after they became aware that the Sith still existed. And all the more so since the prophecy had specifically called for genocide befalling their order.
----
On a different note, but no less interesting in its possible implications for Episode IX, "Master & Apprentice" mentions another prophecy Qui-Gon was occupied with:
"He who learns to conquer death will through his greatest student live again."
One possible meaning for this -- and perhaps the most simple explanation -- is that it's referring to how Qui-Gon would become the first known Jedi to become a Force Ghost.
As I said, it is a simple explanation. But it doesn't really resonate. In what way does Qui-Gon live on through his greatest student that other Jedi Knights wouldn't have with regard to their students?
I can't help but wonder -- and it seems I am not alone in this -- if "He who learns to conquer death" is Darth Plagueis. Conquering death was supposed to be his schtick after all.
Could "Palpatine" be coming back because Palpatine hasn't really been Palpatine since he killed his master in his sleep? Was that all planned on Plagueis's part so that he could become disembodied and possess Palpatine's body?
Has this been his game for decades? Was that the plan for Vader? For Luke? For Kylo or Rey? Was Snoke another vessel?
Or maybe I'm just reading way too much into it. =P
@Clement Rage
@Roger
@Obsidian Fire
@X-SOLDIER
Apparently a new novel, "Master & Apprentice," was released this week. It finally gives us the precise original wording to The Prophecy of the Chosen One:
"Only through sacrifice of many Jedi will the Order cleanse the sin done to the nameless.
The danger of the past is not past, but sleeps in an egg. When the egg cracks, it will threaten the galaxy entire.
When the Force itself sickens, past and future must split and combine.
A Chosen One shall come, born of no father, and through him will ultimate balance in the Force be restored."
It pleases me infinitely to see that the actual prophecy made no mention of achieving balance by destroying the Sith. It, in fact, called for devastation of the Jedi.
My post from this past September is feeling somewhat vindicated with regard to this understanding of the Jedi Order:
All this was, indeed, just foolish and vain assumptions on the part of the Jedi Order after they became aware that the Sith still existed. And all the more so since the prophecy had specifically called for genocide befalling their order.
----
On a different note, but no less interesting in its possible implications for Episode IX, "Master & Apprentice" mentions another prophecy Qui-Gon was occupied with:
"He who learns to conquer death will through his greatest student live again."
One possible meaning for this -- and perhaps the most simple explanation -- is that it's referring to how Qui-Gon would become the first known Jedi to become a Force Ghost.
As I said, it is a simple explanation. But it doesn't really resonate. In what way does Qui-Gon live on through his greatest student that other Jedi Knights wouldn't have with regard to their students?
I can't help but wonder -- and it seems I am not alone in this -- if "He who learns to conquer death" is Darth Plagueis. Conquering death was supposed to be his schtick after all.
Could "Palpatine" be coming back because Palpatine hasn't really been Palpatine since he killed his master in his sleep? Was that all planned on Plagueis's part so that he could become disembodied and possess Palpatine's body?
Has this been his game for decades? Was that the plan for Vader? For Luke? For Kylo or Rey? Was Snoke another vessel?
Or maybe I'm just reading way too much into it. =P
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
.... Whoa. That's... That's a pretty heavy revelation there. The Jedi were the ones that had to be purged, after all.
But, what the fuck? Why would the Force want the Jedi Order to be decimated like that? Why would "balance" be achieved by the wielders of the Light Side being massacred, and the Sith basically gaining the upperhand?
What was the problem with the Jedi Order in regards to the universe? I'm just.. Kinda surprised at that.
...So Ole' Papa Palpatine had another trick up his sleeve.
As the saying goes, you can't keep a good man down.
But, what the fuck? Why would the Force want the Jedi Order to be decimated like that? Why would "balance" be achieved by the wielders of the Light Side being massacred, and the Sith basically gaining the upperhand?
What was the problem with the Jedi Order in regards to the universe? I'm just.. Kinda surprised at that.
...So Ole' Papa Palpatine had another trick up his sleeve.
As the saying goes, you can't keep a good man down.
- AKA
- TresDias
@Makoeyes987
A number of answers to your question can be found in that discussion from September, but can also probably be summarized in this quote from "The Clone Wars" episode "Overlords":
"There are some who would like to exploit our power. The Sith are but one. Too much dark or light would be the undoing of life as you understand it."
A number of answers to your question can be found in that discussion from September, but can also probably be summarized in this quote from "The Clone Wars" episode "Overlords":
"There are some who would like to exploit our power. The Sith are but one. Too much dark or light would be the undoing of life as you understand it."
- AKA
- Smooth Criminal
Wow... That's some shit I had absolutely no clue about! 
Admittedly, I have not been deep into Star Wars since I was a kid and read the Timothy Zahn Star Wars books, Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising, and The Last Command. Oh, and I loved the Dark Horse comic series Dark Empire.
Suffice to say, the new stuff that's been released, especially in reference to the new trilogy, I've simply not followed at all. So this is all very interesting.
Like damn. With the way the Old Republic sounds, its as if Old Xehanort's nightmare end for the universe came true here, hence the need of a Chosen One toFORGE THE X-BLADE AND SUMMON KINGDOM HEARTS end the tyranny of the light.
...That's a pretty damn good point. I even remember as a kid seeing the Phantom Menace and the rest of the prequels and stuff and going, "lol why the hell aren't the Jedi fucking these Hutts up, rolling into Tattoine and ending all this slavery?" Like, I understood it was an "Outer Rim" world and not subject to the Republic's laws but I thought it was kinda weird that these allies of justice jedi kinda didn't do much at all.
It seems that the Jedi got bogged down being arms of the state/Republic, rather than agents of the Force at large. And that ended up blinding them to the obvious and prevented them from what they should've been really focused on.
I really love the idea of the Light Side and Dark Side of the Force being two halves of the same thing, and there being a means of balancing both and not having them constantly at each other's throats. Although, that seems almost too easy on the surface. I'd imagine it'd be hard to wield both and keep them in balance, right?
But damn, this is some stuff I had no clue about existing at all. That's pretty mindblowing about how the Jedi and the Sith were at each other's throats like that.
...However I have one question. If the Light Side and the Dark Side of the Force must be kept in balance.... How does one actually achieve such an aim? Dark Side Force users kinda have a tendency to lose their rational minds when they really cut loose with this power. And if Sith teachings are what I remember them to be, doesn't its teachings kinda lean hard on lethal training and stabbing your fellow students and even your teacher in the back when necessary? That seems like a pretty dangerous doctrine of Force use. So how does that co-exist with the Light Side? Let alone merge with Jedi?
EDIT:
Further reading has answered my above question. Eschewing the dogma of both factions is essentially the solution. Since there really isn't a "Light" or "Dark" side of the Force. It's literally just the Force. Focusing on one or the other apparently causes a galactic Force imbalance that manifests itself as conflict and destruction to inhabitants of the galaxy. Which is kinda strange.... How would one ideally rectify this situation in the first place? Are Jedi just to feel out how the Force is and act accordingly? Like, reading the waves of an ocean current and going with the flow, when applicable?
Given all this, it's actually kinda shocking to imagine that bitter old man Luke was actually right all along in his decision to not stay and fight with his friends in the conflict against the First Order. He was actually wise and correct to remove himself from the galaxy and avoid the conflict entirely. That's fascinating in it's thematic implications on use of power, conflict and pacifism.
This part of X's post made me seriously lol cause it's so true.
Admittedly, I have not been deep into Star Wars since I was a kid and read the Timothy Zahn Star Wars books, Heir to the Empire, Dark Force Rising, and The Last Command. Oh, and I loved the Dark Horse comic series Dark Empire.
Suffice to say, the new stuff that's been released, especially in reference to the new trilogy, I've simply not followed at all. So this is all very interesting.
Like damn. With the way the Old Republic sounds, its as if Old Xehanort's nightmare end for the universe came true here, hence the need of a Chosen One to
...That's a pretty damn good point. I even remember as a kid seeing the Phantom Menace and the rest of the prequels and stuff and going, "lol why the hell aren't the Jedi fucking these Hutts up, rolling into Tattoine and ending all this slavery?" Like, I understood it was an "Outer Rim" world and not subject to the Republic's laws but I thought it was kinda weird that these allies of justice jedi kinda didn't do much at all.
It seems that the Jedi got bogged down being arms of the state/Republic, rather than agents of the Force at large. And that ended up blinding them to the obvious and prevented them from what they should've been really focused on.
I really love the idea of the Light Side and Dark Side of the Force being two halves of the same thing, and there being a means of balancing both and not having them constantly at each other's throats. Although, that seems almost too easy on the surface. I'd imagine it'd be hard to wield both and keep them in balance, right?
But damn, this is some stuff I had no clue about existing at all. That's pretty mindblowing about how the Jedi and the Sith were at each other's throats like that.
...However I have one question. If the Light Side and the Dark Side of the Force must be kept in balance.... How does one actually achieve such an aim? Dark Side Force users kinda have a tendency to lose their rational minds when they really cut loose with this power. And if Sith teachings are what I remember them to be, doesn't its teachings kinda lean hard on lethal training and stabbing your fellow students and even your teacher in the back when necessary? That seems like a pretty dangerous doctrine of Force use. So how does that co-exist with the Light Side? Let alone merge with Jedi?
EDIT:
Further reading has answered my above question. Eschewing the dogma of both factions is essentially the solution. Since there really isn't a "Light" or "Dark" side of the Force. It's literally just the Force. Focusing on one or the other apparently causes a galactic Force imbalance that manifests itself as conflict and destruction to inhabitants of the galaxy. Which is kinda strange.... How would one ideally rectify this situation in the first place? Are Jedi just to feel out how the Force is and act accordingly? Like, reading the waves of an ocean current and going with the flow, when applicable?
Given all this, it's actually kinda shocking to imagine that bitter old man Luke was actually right all along in his decision to not stay and fight with his friends in the conflict against the First Order. He was actually wise and correct to remove himself from the galaxy and avoid the conflict entirely. That's fascinating in it's thematic implications on use of power, conflict and pacifism.
This part of X's post made me seriously lol cause it's so true.
Last edited:
- AKA
- TresDias
@Makoeyes987
Yes, I think you answered all your own curiosities there. =)
The Force is actually much like the Lifestream. It's a cyclical current of energy, the spirit of the cosmos essentially. It provides new life with the energy to live, and when that life ends, it returns to the cosmos.
As explained in "The Clone Wars" episode "Destiny" when describing the planet known as the Wellspring of Life:
"All that surrounds us is the foundation of life, the birthplace of what your science calls midi-chlorians, the foundation of what connects the Living Force and the Cosmic Force. When a living thing dies, all is renewed. Life passes away from the Living Force into the Cosmic Force and becomes one with it. One powers the other. One is renewed by the other."
That episode also contains a powerful allusion to the broken balance of the Force, as Yoda is confronted on that planet with a Dark Side manifestation of himself that grows stronger when Yoda denies that the apparition is part of him, and is only defeated when Yoda acknowledges the truth:
----
In other news, someone noticed this:
"The ship that abandoned Rey in the TROS trailer?"
----
Also, there's this bit of hilarity:
"A Star Wars fan correctly guessed the eventual title for Episode IX and Emperor Palpatine's return in the sequel trilogy way back in 2012."
Yes, I think you answered all your own curiosities there. =)
The Force is actually much like the Lifestream. It's a cyclical current of energy, the spirit of the cosmos essentially. It provides new life with the energy to live, and when that life ends, it returns to the cosmos.
As explained in "The Clone Wars" episode "Destiny" when describing the planet known as the Wellspring of Life:
"All that surrounds us is the foundation of life, the birthplace of what your science calls midi-chlorians, the foundation of what connects the Living Force and the Cosmic Force. When a living thing dies, all is renewed. Life passes away from the Living Force into the Cosmic Force and becomes one with it. One powers the other. One is renewed by the other."
That episode also contains a powerful allusion to the broken balance of the Force, as Yoda is confronted on that planet with a Dark Side manifestation of himself that grows stronger when Yoda denies that the apparition is part of him, and is only defeated when Yoda acknowledges the truth:
----
In other news, someone noticed this:
"The ship that abandoned Rey in the TROS trailer?"
----
Also, there's this bit of hilarity:
"A Star Wars fan correctly guessed the eventual title for Episode IX and Emperor Palpatine's return in the sequel trilogy way back in 2012."
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
You sure you want me to post? I really don't wanna drag this thread on another massive tangent that ruins it for everyone, I'm really, genuinely sorry about that.
My understanding of those phrases is that it's not the entirety of the prophecy.
All that said,
It's Qui Gonn that has the rigid, myopic view of the prophecy. He's convinced it means exactly what he thinks it means.
The Jedi Council keep saying things like 'A prophecy misread may be' 'The chosen one the boy MAY be' 'Always in motion is the future'. They know prophecy is tricky and dangerous, they are wisely skeptical. For all the talk about the Jedi being arrogant and inflexible, they're pretty humble and flexible in the PT we see.
Re Tattooine, what can the Jedi do about it? It is difficult to exert the machinery of the Senate to go and save Naboo, which is a republic member state, which Tattoine is not. They could seize power and turn the republic into a dictatorship, but that's defeating Sauron to set yourself up in his place.
They can, what, form a private army? What then? Invade and occupy Tattooine? Economically sanction Tattooine? It's run by crimelords, their imports aren't official channels anyway. Black markets absolutely thrive under sanctions, you just make Jabba rich and the ordinary people suffer. Freeing slaves by force just results in their masters blowing them up.
All that said,
It's Qui Gonn that has the rigid, myopic view of the prophecy. He's convinced it means exactly what he thinks it means.
The Jedi Council keep saying things like 'A prophecy misread may be' 'The chosen one the boy MAY be' 'Always in motion is the future'. They know prophecy is tricky and dangerous, they are wisely skeptical. For all the talk about the Jedi being arrogant and inflexible, they're pretty humble and flexible in the PT we see.
Re Tattooine, what can the Jedi do about it? It is difficult to exert the machinery of the Senate to go and save Naboo, which is a republic member state, which Tattoine is not. They could seize power and turn the republic into a dictatorship, but that's defeating Sauron to set yourself up in his place.
They can, what, form a private army? What then? Invade and occupy Tattooine? Economically sanction Tattooine? It's run by crimelords, their imports aren't official channels anyway. Black markets absolutely thrive under sanctions, you just make Jabba rich and the ordinary people suffer. Freeing slaves by force just results in their masters blowing them up.
- AKA
- TresDias
It wasn't the fault of any one of us alone.
Though, if I'm being honest, what is the point of this thread if not to discuss "Star Wars"? That's all that we were doing.
That's the spirit!Clem said:
Clem said:
My understanding is that it is. Certainly nothing in the paragraphs before or after the quoting of the prophecy suggests otherwise.
What have you seen?
Clem said:
Not that Qui-Gon is without his faults, but that's neither here nor there.
Questioning whether Anakin is the one spoken of in the prophecy doesn't at all speak to what the order expects the prophecy to mean. Yoda suggests the prophecy may have been misread, yes, and kudos to him for doing so. However, we're still dealing with a scenario where an exchange like this casually takes place:
----
Mace Windu: It's very dangerous, putting them together. I don't think the boy can handle it. I don't trust him.
Obi-Wan Kenobi: With all due respect, Master, is he not the Chosen One? Is he not to destroy the Sith and bring balance to the Force?
Mace Windu: So the prophecy says.
----
Despite the prophecy not saying any such thing.
Hell, when Obi-Wan is pouring his guts out after believing he has killed Anakin, he still references this canonized (within the Jedi Order) assumption as though it were so obviously what the prophecy said:
"You were the Chosen One! It was said that you would destroy the Sith, not join them! Bring balance to the Force, not leave it in darkness!"
Clem said:
"More than nothing."
That's my response to "What can the Jedi do about it?" =P
That the Jedi weren't living up to their own legend -- that they were no longer fulfilling their purpose -- was put in stark focus the moment Anakin Skywalker asked "Have you come to free us? ... Why else would you be here?"
From here, I'll let the new "Master & Apprentice" book say the rest:
"Qui-Gon understood that the Republic's powers ended at its borders...but its influence did not. Surely that influence could be brought to bear more often, to help enslaved persons. Why had this never come to pass? This rot has been festering within us from the beginning, he thought."
- AKA
- X
Hoping to go through Master & Apprentice, as well as Dooku Jedi Lost while I'm on my long flight while moving at the end of the month. I have the two Thrawn books as well that I've been meaning to binge through (likely all via audiobook to make my life easiest). Especially looking forward to checking them out now that there's all of this new context to them.
Additionally, if you haven't checked out the Fortress Vader comic arc, I'd highly recommend it, as it feels more and more like it's going to be an important one the more we keep seeing other little bits of contextual seeding throughout these other new books & games & things.
It's neat to feel like we're actually hitting the big picture from the right perspective.
X
Additionally, if you haven't checked out the Fortress Vader comic arc, I'd highly recommend it, as it feels more and more like it's going to be an important one the more we keep seeing other little bits of contextual seeding throughout these other new books & games & things.
It's neat to feel like we're actually hitting the big picture from the right perspective.
X
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
A second hand account from someone that has read the book. Qui Gon is interested in prophecies, and sends Obi to look into all of them, not just the chosen one version. Those lines are part of several different prophecies, and may not be the entirety. Maybe X can correct me when he gets hold of it.
"So the prophecy says" IS a line doubting the prophecy. Obi Wan is saying that they should trust Anakin because of the prophecy, and Mace's reply implies "but is it right?" He does doubt it.
Obi's rant is about his hopes for Anakin being dashed. He believed in it because Qui Gonn did
"More than nothing" ain't a plan, and assumes that they are doing nothing.
Notable about those revealed lines is, they could equally apply to the sequel era. Maybe Anakin was never the chosen one after all.
Order 66 and the Clones, or Kylo's massacre and the nameless FO stormtroopers?
Palpatine in TPM, or his presumed return in 9?
"So the prophecy says" IS a line doubting the prophecy. Obi Wan is saying that they should trust Anakin because of the prophecy, and Mace's reply implies "but is it right?" He does doubt it.
Obi's rant is about his hopes for Anakin being dashed. He believed in it because Qui Gonn did
"More than nothing" ain't a plan, and assumes that they are doing nothing.
Notable about those revealed lines is, they could equally apply to the sequel era. Maybe Anakin was never the chosen one after all.
Order 66 and the Clones, or Kylo's massacre and the nameless FO stormtroopers?
Palpatine in TPM, or his presumed return in 9?
- AKA
- The Engineer
Seeing how different this is from what the Jedi Order "knows" the Prophecy to be in the Prequels, I wonder how many of them actually know what the Prophecy really says. You've got who knows how may millennia of language and culture shifts from when the Prophecy was first given to the Prequels. I could really easily see people making a translation of the Prophecy to whatever the "current language" of the galaxy was at the time and then having that process repeat every time something in language or culture shifted. Throw in a few Sith who would love for the Jedi to get a wrong impression of what the Prophecy really said and... yeah... could totally see no one knowing what the Prophecy really says because they've always "known" what it says. And couldn't be wrong about that.
On another note.... While the "Jedi" and "Order" are both mentioned in the Prophecy, the "Jedi Order" itself isn't. Given how long ago the Prophecy was given how how at one point the Jedi were just "Force Users" and not "Light Side Force Users"... maybe those are two different groups of people?
Unless something super crazy happens, I can't see the Chosen One being anyone other then Anakin. Luke, Ben, and even Rey, have their fathers accounted for. Anakin never has.
The idea of the Force sickening is a rather interesting one. And I wonder how far back that happened. Presumably it's when the Jedi split into the Jedi as we know them in the Prequels and the Sith... But I also wonder if that could have been whenever the Jedi stopped doing what the Force wanted them to do as a group which isn't necessarily the same thing as the Jedi/Sith split.
Either way... lots of fun stuff in there. It better make it's way into Episode XI somehow...
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
With regard to Tattooine, the mere fact that it exists in the state its in is not in itself a failing of the Jedi.
Closest explanation I have is the slaves in Mexico right now, as it is considered to be one of the major hubs of trafficking. US Law Enforcement has poured literal billions into trying to curb the power of the cartels, and so has the Mexican government. There is a very strong argument that different policies would have achieved better results, but whatever your views on that, nobody has a finger snap solution to make them vanish, because these questions are difficult.
Declaring literal war killed a lot of people, but didn't break their power, and whatever your preferred solution might be, the failing it's not that no one cares or that no one is doing anything right now, but that all the potential answers are blood drenched and difficult, and by no means guaranteed to have results.
Whatever your preferred response is, deciding that US law enforcement agencies need to be dismantled as a result of failure to curb the cartels seems like it would be unlikely to improve the situation, and has good odds of making it worse.
I am very open to correction here, y'all certainly no more about this than me.
Closest explanation I have is the slaves in Mexico right now, as it is considered to be one of the major hubs of trafficking. US Law Enforcement has poured literal billions into trying to curb the power of the cartels, and so has the Mexican government. There is a very strong argument that different policies would have achieved better results, but whatever your views on that, nobody has a finger snap solution to make them vanish, because these questions are difficult.
Declaring literal war killed a lot of people, but didn't break their power, and whatever your preferred solution might be, the failing it's not that no one cares or that no one is doing anything right now, but that all the potential answers are blood drenched and difficult, and by no means guaranteed to have results.
Whatever your preferred response is, deciding that US law enforcement agencies need to be dismantled as a result of failure to curb the cartels seems like it would be unlikely to improve the situation, and has good odds of making it worse.
I am very open to correction here, y'all certainly no more about this than me.
- AKA
- TresDias
It's possible the lines may all be separate prophecies, but there's absolutely no reason to believe we haven't now seen the Prophecy of the Chosen One in its entirety.
Here is the three-page chapter in question:
By the way, I think either you misunderstood your friend's account or their recollection was off. As you can see there, the line(s) we're concerned about came up in that chapter in which Qui-Gon is a teenager.
Perhaps you or your friend is thinking of this instead?:
Clem said:
You're entirely missing the point, though. What is important here is what Mace believes the wording of the prophecy to be. Whether he has doubts about Anakin or the prophecy itself is not the question at hand. Doubting it is not the same as ascribing to it words that it doesn't contain.
His response shows us clearly that he, like Obi-Wan himself, just accepts the prophecy to contain wording it doesn't.
For the record, though, Mace was open to the possibility of the prophecy. Recall him reminding Obi-Wan in Episode II of Anakin's grander importance:
"Remember, Obi-Wan. If the prophecy is true, your apprentice is the only one who can bring the Force back into balance."
I quoted a passage to you from the new book that says as much:Clem said:
"Qui-Gon understood that the Republic's powers ended at its borders...but its influence did not. Surely that influence could be brought to bear more often, to help enslaved persons. Why had this never come to pass? This rot has been festering within us from the beginning, he thought."
"Why had this never come to pass?"
"Never."
And on another page, Yoda defends the doing nothing (with an extremely bizarre excuse):
More than that, the book's epilogue also tells us that Qui-Gon spent the rest of his life (approximately seven more years) "arguing that the Jedi should push the Republic harder on combating slavery ... to anyone who would listen":
And in the event one may think we're supposed to believe Yoda is the correct one in that debate above, I have to point to this quote from Qui-Gon on the back of the book -- as I'd argue it makes our intended understanding of who was right altogether clear:
I think that kind of answers the cartels+slavery question as well.
Definitely some of it could apply to the sequel era. I fully expect that some does.Clem said:
I do think Anakin has to be the Chosen One, though. There's that whole "born of no father" thing, which I can't imagine comes up often. But there's also no reason the "through him" part of it has to be limited to solely Anakin's own actions or lifetime, so it may essentially be that we have other "Chosen Ones" who are in place to fulfill that bringing of ultimate balance directly and indirectly because of him.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Y'know, it appears you're right.
Sigh. There goes a lot of my interest in the setting.
Sigh. There goes a lot of my interest in the setting.
- AKA
- TresDias
Well, now I feel bad. =(
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Not on you. "I'm right, but no one will listen to me" is so, so much less compelling to me than "this is a complex issue with no easy answer".
- AKA
- TresDias
I can see that point. It would have been a worthwhile direction worth exploring too -- but we might get essentially that from the "Black Panther" sequel. I kind of expect to see some repercussions for the similar well-intended thinking at the end of that one.
Clement Rage
Pro Adventurer
Doubt it. Closest I ever got was BVS and Iron Fist 1, both of which had large vocal hatedoms and lost their edge in the sequels.
