SPOILERS State of the Shinra Military Address (*Open Spoilers*)

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Sup folks, as requested, here are my reflections on the Shinra Military as seen in the remake. Played up to the end of Chapter 2 so far.

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Overall, they're... okay. So far they've all appeared to be male, which was disappointing but not surprising. Encountered mostly in hostile situations where there isn't much room for character depth. I'm sad that I had to slaughter so many on the streets of Midgar, but that could just be my characteristic incompetence.

Not notably different from any other depiction of evil henchpeople. I imagine there will be more to say as things develop.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
In the early days, there was only so much you could expect, but we're now well into the game and they have stayed one dimensional, with little variety of opinion. I haven't been doing a Shademp like hunt for all lines of dialogue, but I have been paying attention to Shinra infantry NPCs, and there's little variety in personality, and when we do get to listen in, it veers towards laziness and callousness. Examples being the flamethrower people on the plate talking about half assing their jobs or the soldiers standing on the ruins of sector 7 seven whining about having to do their OT.

I do not have a stance on soldiers necessarily being paragons, far from it, but there are supposed to be people under those uniforms. And people generally vary. This isn't very evident so far. Maybe it'll change in the next few chapters, who knows.

This becomes especially glaring because everything non Shinra in the game has generally been more nuanced and subtle, because they have the space to explore it. Even Corneo, somehow. But within Shinra, all the nuance, subtlety, and variety has been given to the Turks, while the execs and infantry's one dimensionalness is played up instead of down.

It doesn't break the game, but it's very disappointing for me.
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
I dont get this at all. The Shinra high people (Heidegger, Hojo, Scarlet) are standard evil s*it, so they arent given that extra dimensionality. The low people (the grunts, the infantrymen) are basic enemies you fight through the whole game. I dont get how you can expand that?

And they even do. You got the Assess that says they are new recrutes. The game shows a grunt defying orders to save Sector 7. The game shows how much they are abused by the high people, constantly being bossed around and threathened. You are given a whole lotta faces for the entire Shinra company.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
It's not some impossible trick. FF9 did it. FF13 did it. We get a wide range of personalities among evil henchpeople dialogue, it's not so difficult to achieve, if you want to.
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
We actually do see much more personality from the troops here. In the first Chapter alone, soldiers remark that you can use magic, that you are a SOLDIER. You have multiple appearances all throughout the game that shows different infantrymen and how they are. Some are dicks, some are actually good. Why would every infantrymen that you encounter be it's own character? You meet like hundreds, it's impossible.
 

youffie

Pro Adventurer
I've wondered if the troops' lack of personality (mostly) is actually intentional, along with the party mowing them down mercilessly. Its all the more impactful that Cloud turns out to have been one of those faceless grunts later on, because they're shown as so disposable up to that point.

This is my take as well. After all, I don’t think it’s a coincidence that the first battle of the entire game (OG) is Cloud battling regular grunts and the last one is Cloud against Sephiroth. I actually find them very sympathetic both in the OG and in the remake.

I think I also remember a line from Cloud defending them, saying how they’re really just normal people doing their jobs or something to that effect. I can’t remember the exact wording or when it happened, but I liked it.
 

Odysseus

Ninja Potato
AKA
Ody
I always feel kinda bad for fighting them. In my first play through of the OG I got to the submarine, and inside you find the two grunts and the general who earlier roped Cloud into the parade at Junon, and I chose to fight them. They actually have in battle dialogue about trying their best and standing to the last man (I don't remember exactly anymore) and it got me sad enough that I reset the game so I could spare them instead.
 

Teioh

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Teiocho
I need to replay
'cus there was a part right at the beginning where they're chatting away and I felt really bad for popping out and spoiling their day. The words stay frosty were used :P
 

RhinoKart

Pro Adventurer
I really liked the grunt in Chapter 16

The one who recognizes Cloud. Now you could say he is bad at his job because even if he knows Cloud, he still should probably arrest the 3 terrorists standing in front of him, but the conversation hints at Cloud at least having a semi-positive relationship with this infantry man.

The grunt recognizes Cloud, says they went through training together, and admits that he stood up for Cloud to the other infantry men, saying he knew Cloud didn't die (and on top of that he doesn't just try and arrest him on the spot).

I hope we have this guy be a recurring infantry man, but I know that isn't too likely.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
I posted in chapter 15 on purpose, because I wanted to get my thoughts down before the Shinra building, which was the most likely spot that would change my mind or cement it.

Going into this game, circa chapter 2, I was, well, optimistic would be going too far, but had low enough expectations that I thought they might be met.

FF7 Remake is a great game in a lot of ways, but this aspect is so much worse than I could possibly have imagined. It's super strange, because everything else is more nuanced and subtle. And I mean everything. Sector 5, 6, and 7. The Abzu bossfight. Much of the dialogue is cleaner and more natural. Biggs, Wedge and Jessie get more depth, as does AVALANCHE as a whole. Marco the Tattooed man, Marle, Weapon shop guy. all of it.

Everything except Shinra.

Heideger and Scarlet had their faults in the original game, but they were also very effective and dangerous when the need called for it. That's gone now. Scarlet killed one of her own men in one specific occasion in order to (successfully) motivate her men into shooting straighter, leading to them blowing Barret's arm off immediately afterwards. Here, she allows her own people to die for no reason at all. Heidegger can't organise Airbuster being ready on time despite having all possible warning he could ever want, down to live feeds of his targets.

I was expecting the Shinra infantry to be mostly disregarded, but instead they're actively humiliated at every turn. We get scene after scene of them being terrible at what they do, at one point being a literal footstool for no apparent reason, and several scenes where their laziness and cowardliness is played for laughs. Not only that, nuance and humanity that was in the original game is actually taken out, unlike everywhere else.

Take those two gate guards in sector 7. They have like, six lines in the OG, but they have more nuance and variety there. Somehow. Inexplicably.

Their dialogue in this game involves the older guard yelling at the younger one for not being strict enough, and then the next day, weakly threatening to arrest Gwen (the person that gives you the quest in the factory)

Dialogue they had in the old game includes the young guard asking the older one if he wants to go see Loveless later, and the implication that the old guard keeps ragging on the young one, because the job is dangerous and he wants the younger one to stay sharp. They have that classic 'wait, you're worried about me?' 'Of course not' conversation.

All that warmth is gone in the remake (if I just missed it, I'm sure someone will correct me.) And when the pillar comes down, in the OG, they're not guarding that gate at all, just watching the pillar in horror like everyone else.

There's also train man, who is still there in the remake but taken out of his Shinra military uniform and put in something more conductor-ish.

Shinra HQ was a big opportunity to see the troops in their home having casual conversations. We didn't. We did have Kunsel knowing person, but that's basically just foreshadowing, there's no character of that infantryperson in it. We get conversations that are mostly complaining about their jobs or being lazy, and moments where they flinch so that Rufus can look better by comparison.

It's so blatant and contrasting to everything else in this game that it seems deliberate. It goes beyond my preferences here, this is less subtlety than we had in the PS1 era, unlike... everything else in the game. Corneo's lackeys get more varied characterisation!

Shinra HQ was really oddly done. Once upon a time we had infiltration mingames and a general impression of a need to be stealthy, this time the crew just carves their way in with no effort to hide and somehow it works. It was the perfect place for having minigames to talk/stealth your way to get keycards as well as worldbuild Shinra and its employees, and they actually made it simpler than before. Just do the grand tour, and then Domino hands you the card for the next floor. We could've had social engineering puzzles or stealthing past security, but that all got taken out.

Meanwhile, there's a bunch more minigames and character given to the slums. It's such an odd omission.

I don't know how this happened, it's so inexplicably terrible compared to everything else in the game. It's baffling.

I didn't go into this with huge demands, my expectations were actually low, because I know few people care as much about this as me. But this somehow was below my worst expectations. I can barely believe how shoddily written the company beyond the Turks and Rufus turned out to be.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
.... This is not shoddy writing.

This is deliberate showcasing of how Shinra treats their lesser grunts/infantryman as Red Shirts.

The most succinct summation of Shinra's attitude towards their foot soldiers is in Chapter 8, before Reno comes down from his perch after Cloud takes down 5 of his infantryman detail.

"Good ole what's-his-face... Hardly knew ya." -Reno

You get a teaser of the Huntsman in Chapter 2 leading the search for Cloud and directing security. We see and hear infantrymen lament getting thrown to the wolves during the pillar assault, they say numerous unique lines of dialogue in battle, such as stating how they won't let AVALANCHE take down Midgar and their way of life as Wutai spies, and you hear the infantrymen talk amongst themselves as they search for AVALANCHE in Chapter 15 too. The sector 7 guards have tons new dialogue than they ever did in the OG btw. If you actually listen to them post plate fall you hear them reflect and conversate about what they've witnessed and how happy they are to quit Shinra and work for the people.

And how much Cloud and the others choose to hide is up to you. They 100% try to be as stealthy as possible but due to a combination of mishaps and unforseen interventions they get outted. But they do try to be stealthy and avoid the entire Shinra military coming at them at once. And you get a very clear glimpse of the normal Shinra employees by speaking to them, hearing Tifa reflect on their normalcy and hearing them talk on the phone with their families or amongst themselves about the horror going on outside.

I'm not sure how you missed all of this.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
This is one of the things I was actually pretty pleased with in the remake :huh: The OG had the shock twist factor that worked for it, so I don't think this level of focus on the grunts would have as much place. However, going into remake knowing about Cloud's identity, I thought the scenes with the infantrymen created some nice dramatic tension. I was glad how it made them feel more human from the get go, rather than just a random battle. I started the game immediately feeling bad mowing them down. I didn't think it was really meant to be comic relief, per se. Maybe props to highlight how cartoonishly awful their bosses are, but I personally enjoyed the cartoonishness of Heidegger and Scarlet so... :P

I dunno. I feel like there's a lot to criticize about the remake but I can't say this is something that strikes me. Now that I think about it, scenes where the infantrymen are portrayed as just people doing their jobs takes up a decent amount of space in the script. Maybe there could have been a bit more variety in personality/models/enemy design to em, but that's hardly anything that would stand out enough to ask for more on that.
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Like, I've said this before about the Remake and I think it's applicable here.

Say what you will about the new overarching meta plot, the final chapter and down-in-the-weeds adjustments to the fantasy setting of this game but if there's one thing the writers nail without question, it's the characters, their personalities and interactions.

Even if you find time travel and AUs as appetizing as steamed clams for a lunch you never ordered, the characters and overall love and emotion they put in making these people more than just hollow pixels playing a part is apparent. This the only FF game I've ever given a fuck about killing the human enemies in battle. And I make it a point not to give a fuck.

These Red Shirts don't feel quite as Red Shirt-y as most FF enemy troopers. They go out of the way to remind you they aren't Clone Troopers wearing the same face under their helmets ready to Order 66 anyone they're told to at a moment's notice. They are just sad sacks caught between a Buster Sword and a hard place.
 
AKA
Alex
Dialogue they had in the old game includes the young guard asking the older one if he wants to go see Loveless later, and the implication that the old guard keeps ragging on the young one, because the job is dangerous and he wants the younger one to stay sharp. They have that classic 'wait, you're worried about me?' 'Of course not' conversation.

A variant of that specific conversation is in the remake. It happens in Chapter 4.

The mistake you made is assuming that guard NPCs have one conversation and that's it. There are several examples of guards (the duo here, the Huntsman, the Chapter 16 guard) who either make multiple appearances or have dialogue tied in with multiple chapters.
 

Theozilla

Kaiju Member
“Effective and dangerous” are definitely not what I got from Heidegger and Scarlet’s OG portrayals. They were extremely cartoony and Team Rocket-esque buffoons.
Also I don’t get the point of using Scarlet’s portrayal in Barret’s flashback as a comparison when the Remake hasn’t gotten to that point in the narrative yet, there’s not much reason to assume she won’t be portrayed ruthlessly in it when the Remake has been doing so already (e.g. her treatment of the Reactor 5 news reporters, leaving the Shinra scientists to face the brunt of the synthetic Materia explosion, etc.).
As for Shinra as a whole, as others have mentioned the game dedicated numerous time to humanizing the employees of Shinra (and the military personnel too). I definitely don’t understand the claim that the Remake’s portrayal of Shinra’s military is less nuanced than the OG’s.
 

Roger

He/him
AKA
Minato
Heideger and Scarlet had their faults in the original game, but they were also very effective and dangerous when the need called for it. That's gone now. Scarlet killed one of her own men in one specific occasion in order to (successfully) motivate her men into shooting straighter, leading to them blowing Barret's arm off immediately afterwards. Here, she allows her own people to die for no reason at all. Heidegger can't organise Airbuster being ready on time despite having all possible warning he could ever want, down to live feeds of his targets.


All the murder Scarlet did in Corel was already for no reason at all, not the guards, not Barret and Dyne, not the village they burn down, it was all a pointless display of Scarlet's cartoony evil. As for Heidegger, if the man was able to do his job under President Shinra's command we don't ever really see it, we only see the Rufus days who sees Heidegger as useless and capable of nothing more then empty bluster.

Remake Heidegger seems far more effective and dangerous, even if his men didn't manage to prepare Airbuster quickly enough.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
Okay, I've played through some of the relevant chapters again to double check.


There is a lot of enemy chatter, but it's primarily situation specific variants of 'there they are, get em'. When they're unique dialogue, it's those flamethrower guys complaining about their job, or the SOLDIER complaining about having to do OT (standing on the wreckage of sector 7, you'd think they'd have some thoughts on it)

Giving life to enemy grunts is not very hard, in most FF games you get to walk around talking to military members at different points. Even the black mages in FF9 get their moment protecting Vivi from black waltz 3.

With PS4 tech, it's much easier to do this. Everything else got expanded, but there's still limited chances to talk to Shinra infantry.

I was flat wrong about those sector 7 troopers, I will admit that.

If it was a Shinra culture deal, you'd expect it to change among other characters, right? It doesn't.

A lot of potentially dramatic confrontations end up being randomly played for laughs. Let's look at entering the Shinra building. We could have had either AVALANCHE finding a good hiding spot and getting through security, or else a good security detail finding their spot. Instead we get them not being found...and then Barret falls over.

Worst of both worlds.

At the ends of chapter 4 and 17, we have confrontations with troopers... and then Roche and Cloud decide to play bowling with their bikes, ripping the tension right out of the scene with some slapstick. Hey, look at that last guy run, teehee.

Chapter 5, we get comedy cutaways to Heidi and friends. Chapter 7, despite all the warning they have the Airbuster isn't ready on time. There's a constant thread of comedically screwing up through the portrayals. I get it, you need some of that, but its undercutting a lot of potentially dramatic confrontations.

On Heidi and Scarlet, they're the ones who come up with the Rocket and Sister Ray plans, and Heidi is calm and capable when Weapon attacks Junon. That's well ahead of the timeline here, of course, but their role was expanded to fit the remake, but it's expanded to comedy incompetence.
That was there in the original, but they also had some edge. But the comedic sociopathy gets dialled up and the effectiveness doesn't get dialled up in equal measure.

Scarlet killing one of her own men is expanded to allowing a bunch of researchers to die for no reason, and doing... nothing much else, the whole game. That's in line with the OG timeline, but if you're going to expand the role, why make her one of her only scenes a comedy screwup?

I don't expect anyone to care about this, it's kind of one of my hang ups, but Lic said she was interested in my perspective on the Shinra military, so here it is. For me, it's extremely one note and frustrating. Y'all don't have to agree.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Y'all don't have to agree.

Roger that!

I'll start with apparently not getting your sense of what makes for comedy. That seems to make up the large bulk of your gripes: a sense of finding things (that I mostly found some form of disturbing or unsettling) comedic.

Obvious exception to the bike bowling shenanigans. That's comedic when it's Roche doing it because the guy is a fucking lunatic choosing to rescue his enemies. When Cloud does it, it's a mix of badass and funny (the comedy coming from the callback to Roche's wackiness).
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
I think the crux of what I'm not understanding is from having recently seen a playthrough of the OG. Heidegger and Scarlet are referred to as "Gyahaha" and "Kyahaha" in a mocking tone. The are anime antagonists. I really think this is the feeling Remake is trying to draw from.

I'm not saying you can't be disappointed in what you're disappointed in, but claiming that this aspect is "inexplicably terrible compared to the rest of the game" when there's a lot of other issues going on with this game... it seems like a very bloated criticism, imo.
 

Clement Rage

Pro Adventurer
You mean we disagree on stuff? Who woulda thought?

This happens to be a particular thing that I care a lot about. I enjoyed this game a lot, but with regard to Shinra, they're doing everything that I didn't want to see. Everyone values different things, I broadly enjoyed most of the rest of it. You may disagree, and that's okay. I just found the treatment of Shinra jarring next to the treatment of everything else.

Everything in this game is bigger and more expanded than in the OG. Sector's 5, 6, and 7. Corneo's organisation gets more detail. The neighbourhood watches get more detail.

Shinra...was bigger, but expanded? I don't know. It felt oddly... simple. The OG Prez viewed the Promised Land as a fairy tale that was 'too appealing not to pursue', here he's betting the farm on it. If he wanted to go to war with Wutai, surely there are easier ways than blowing up half your own capital? We could've got to talk to people within the Shinra HQ, and I mean have conversations, not overhear NPC dialogue.

Shinra HQ is simplistic in the OG, but it wasn't the final boss area in the OG. There was so much room for expansion, where the crew has to sneak in, getting keycards one by one by running sidequests pretending to be employees, getting to know people and departments and doing favours until they got the next one, or going through the floor where everyone's gone home except security drones to break into the office where the next one is.We could've, you know, broken into offices and read files, got a real sense of the building and how it worked.

Instead we got three whole floors of tour guide and then Mayor Domino just handed you the next card for free.

Reeve has derogatory nicknames for his colleagues, that he doesn't use to their faces. They can also have soldiers march in and arrest him. Heidegger et al have their cartoony moments in the OG, but they also have moments where they get stuff done. They've bigger roles here, in which the cartoony moments get expanded, but the 'getting stuff done' part is played down. Scarlet blows up her own people, she doesn't get a chance to be dangerous. Heidegger confronts them in the lobby, but there's no tension in the scene... oh no, four infantry, how unstoppable, and then we get a bunch of jokes.

("They're surrounded, sir."

"Yes, I can see that" and so on..)

The cutaways in ch 5 actually took away from the tension for me. Dr Robotnik in his control room yelling about how he was surrounded by incompetents. And if this is just a Shinra attitude and he's not supposed to be right, I'd expect to see scenes where infantry independently do things that are effective at putting pressure on AVALANCHE.

In ch 7, Airbuster's encounter gets deflated by the quests to disable it in advance. If they really wanted to crank things up, how about a multi stage encounter where it's hunting you through the corridors? Even if they win, the victory might feel more earned.

For a similar scene involving mowing down people on a motorcycle was a thing, there's Snow's rescue in Palompolum in XIII. The soldiers get varied responses and seem human, it's a genuine unexpected 'oh crap' ambush of Light and Hope that isn't deflated by sidequests disabling the machines first, and we get to see how powerful the crew is, but there's also a sense of genuine menace and pressure, and the attack isn't played for slapstick at any point.

I thought the portrayal of PSICOM and the Guardian Corp was very well done in that game, where we got a sense of their motivations and personalities, without compromising on how dangerous they were. I missed it here. And this kind of thing is a major selling point for me in stories I read, I didn't like how it was done here.

This happens to be a big deal for me. It may not be for you. OK.
 

oty

Pro Adventurer
AKA
ex-soldier boy
I think my problem is the exact opposite. To me, Shinra personnel didnt need expansion. Reeve will get his next game, as Rufus will. The Turks are expanded already, and they will be even more. Hojo, Prez, Heidegger and Scarlet are all within what they should be: villains. Not complex villains, that make you understand their motives or something. Just clear cut bad people. Hojo is a mad scientist, Prez is a son of a bitch greedy man, Heidegger is an authoritarian that kind of sucks and Scarlet is also an authoritarian that kind of sucks. They are not redeemed ever, because they are just the bad people of Shinra.

Shinra HQ is also the opposite. They expanded it "too much", and I can totally imagine someone not liking it for being heavily narrative- expository, and with no so much action. I digged that, but I like the original so there is obvious bias.
 

looneymoon

they/them
AKA
Rishi
Everything in this game is bigger and more expanded than in the OG. Sector's 5, 6, and 7. Corneo's organisation gets more detail. The neighbourhood watches get more detail.

Shinra...was bigger, but expanded? I don't know. It felt oddly... simple. The OG Prez viewed the Promised Land as a fairy tale that was 'too appealing not to pursue', here he's betting the farm on it. If he wanted to go to war with Wutai, surely there are easier ways than blowing up half your own capital? We could've got to talk to people within the Shinra HQ, and I mean have conversations, not overhear NPC dialogue.

Shinra HQ is simplistic in the OG, but it wasn't the final boss area in the OG. There was so much room for expansion, where the crew has to sneak in, getting keycards one by one by running sidequests pretending to be employees, getting to know people and departments and doing favours until they got the next one, or going through the floor where everyone's gone home except security drones to break into the office where the next one is.We could've, you know, broken into offices and read files, got a real sense of the building and how it worked.

Instead we got three whole floors of tour guide and then Mayor Domino just handed you the next card for free.

I agree with this 100% actually. The whole Shinra HQ part of the game was probably the weakest section of the game for me. It was disappointing because it was the part I was looking forward to the most. The way that it was expanded wasn't good expansion. It was an overly padded dungeon. This part was a horribly missed opportunity to do something truly amazing with this awesome set piece.

I was also really disappointed because the way the story was going, I was totally expecting a bombastic multi-part boss fight featuring possibly a new Heidegger/Scarlet mech... proceeding to a showdown with Tseng and an early introduced Elena, and finishing with Rufus coming back in a cool helicopter or something. But... alas :/
 

Makoeyes987

Listen closely, there is meaning in my words.
AKA
Smooth Criminal
Shinra HQ is simplistic in the OG, but it wasn't the final boss area in the OG. There was so much room for expansion, where the crew has to sneak in, getting keycards one by one by running sidequests pretending to be employees, getting to know people and departments and doing favours until they got the next one, or going through the floor where everyone's gone home except security drones to break into the office where the next one is.We could've, you know, broken into offices and read files, got a real sense of the building and how it worked.

...Why would the heroes be fraternizing with employees and rummaging through offices when their entire mission and purpose for breaking into the most dangerous and heavily guarded location in Midgar, is rescuing Aerith and getting out with as little attention as possible? What you're saying doesn't even line up with the story. Cloud and the others are trying to remain as incognito as possible. They're suspicious intruders given their appearance and non-professional attire. The only reason they are able to infiltrate as far as they can is due to assistance on the inside and chaos from the plate fall. Because without it, it'd be non-stop battle after battle.

Given the context of the narrative, the pacing of the story, and in-character motivations of everyone involved, you do see a lot of the Shinra Building. You hear the employees and what they're feeling at the time. You overhear conversations with loved ones, anxieties over the future, and watch them attentively listen to an interview with Heidegger over security. I have no idea what you're even looking for because you see and hear the employees in numerous situations and scenarios, from break in to searching for the AVALANCHE informant. You see some sleeping, you find one having a panic attack, you hear them conversating amongst themselves over food, and can even hear them warning each other over asking too many questions.

You get to see their friggin' Combat Simulator and science division. You can spy on the individual employees on the executive meeting floor by peeping through the vents. You overhear how the higher up Shinra Employees deal with the chaos and confusion amongst themselves. Nevermind the Combat Simulator, the Drum, and all of the visual expansion and call backs to Shinra's previous research projects that are seen all around you. Any further, and you strain the credibility of the plot. There are limits that if broken, would cause the story's pacing to simply break apart if you just completely given carte blanch freedom to pretend you belonged in the Shinra Building and made the story one that injects too much gameplay mechanics and openness. It's the most dangerous location for the heroes to be. It's not a place to just chill and have fun.

In ch 7, Airbuster's encounter gets deflated by the quests to disable it in advance. If they really wanted to crank things up, how about a multi stage encounter where it's hunting you through the corridors? Even if they win, the victory might feel more earned.

Because the entire premise of the Airbuster lead up was that it was a killing machine that was being created to summarily execute you on live television, however you had the opportunity to specifically sabotage it's 3 core functions in order to give yourself an edge in battle. Thereby tailoring your fighting experience to one that is unique and structured to your fighting style, making it more immersive and engaging. Having it be a repetitive boss that just keeps coming back for more like the X-ATM092 Black Widow from FFVIII would completely ruin the entire premise and unique battle experience that you're able to create by systematically sabotaging the creation. It's a creative and unique way to literally give the finger to Shinra and create a unique battle experience adjusted to your style.

What you're asking for would be one of the most often seen tropes in JRPG boss battles which would have added zero distinctiveness and identity to one of the most basic and forgettable FFVII bosses. The Remake goes out of its way to make the beginning Midgar bosses unique, intimidating threats that have their own special circumstance and strategy to take down. Making them become more like rote typical boss battles, strips them of what the Remake did right to differentiate them. I'm really not sure why anyone would want such a by-the-book portrayal.

For a similar scene involving mowing down people on a motorcycle was a thing, there's Snow's rescue in Palompolum in XIII. The soldiers get varied responses and seem human, it's a genuine unexpected 'oh crap' ambush of Light and Hope that isn't deflated by sidequests disabling the machines first, and we get to see how powerful the crew is, but there's also a sense of genuine menace and pressure, and the attack isn't played for slapstick at any point.

I can't believe you're even making this comparison....


I love FFXIII and the badassery that was demonstrated by Snow riding in on Shiva, but to somehow equate that as having more enemy grunt differentiation and characterization, compared to the actual bike escape sequence of the FFVII Remake is mind-boggling. I have no idea what you're even talking about because none of the Psi-Com troops say a thing in that scene. They get blown up.

My mistake. They say two words.

"Open fire."

Now, Yagg-Rosch speaks, and he dehumanizes the L'Cie to his troops, saying they're nothing but targets, while the announcer on the giant tele previously stated that they'll be executing the L'Cie on live television. After Snow subsequently beats everyone, Yagg orders his troops to take them up and out of danger.

There are no varied responses from the Psi-Com soldiers. They say two words.

Not even during the confrontation where Snow marches out of Hope's house while still injured appeals to their humanity, stating that they were all part of Cocoon before being branded L'Cie and that it's just as much their home now as theirs. Yagg-Rosch steps forwards, introduces himself, and coldly but clearly explains the Sanctum's rationale for executing them as threats to the safety and order of Cocoon.

Compare that to scene where Cloud throws his sword inches from the grunt's head as a silent warning. Giving that one grunt a chance to not die for a worthless cause and just run away with his life. That scene alone, with the grunt contemplating his decisions and then running the hell away, with Cloud showing him mercy, gives more personality to the Shinra Infantrymen, than all of Chapter 7 of FFXIII gave the Psi-Com troopers.

I don't know if you just misremembered something or what, but that comparison is way off base.
 
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
Shinra HQ is simplistic in the OG, but it wasn't the final boss area in the OG. There was so much room for expansion, where the crew has to sneak in, getting keycards one by one by running sidequests pretending to be employees, getting to know people and departments and doing favours until they got the next one, or going through the floor where everyone's gone home except security drones to break into the office where the next one is.We could've, you know, broken into offices and read files, got a real sense of the building and how it worked.

Instead we got three whole floors of tour guide and then Mayor Domino just handed you the next card for free.

I'm not gonna lie -- your ideas for the HQ sound like a lot of fun, and I wish they were in the game.

I really like what did make it in there too, though. For me, the ideal would be combining all of that.

Clem said:
I thought the portrayal of PSICOM and the Guardian Corp was very well done in that game, where we got a sense of their motivations and personalities, without compromising on how dangerous they were. I missed it here.

Huh. I would have said it was precisely the reverse. :huh:

Clem said:
This happens to be a big deal for me. It may not be for you. OK.
It is a big deal for me, but somehow we see very, very different results. I have no explanation why.
 
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