The absence of the fantastic in chronologically later Ivalice Alliance games... and what it might mean

[Ryushikaze]

So, Final Fantasy Tactics is 'narrated' from a perspective several hundred years into the future, trying to find the 'true events' of the war of the Roses er... Lions. Over the course of this game, you discover that Technology actually underwent a serious decline at some point, as per the standard fantasy trope.

Cue Vagrant Story (I'm counting it Canon) and you find much of the fantastic elements of FFT have even vanished or simply become less prevalent.

Cue FF12/RevWings, FFTA/2, and we see that in the distant past of FFT, technology and magic were both much more pronounced than before. Moogles, Bangaa, Bunnygirls, All sorts of different races, floating continents, airships (of which there were only wrecks in FFT), the lot.

This begs the question- the hell happened to all these different races and technologies? The loss of technologies is one thing, but apparent racial extinction is another.

And it also begs a question... If it seems that the world of Ivalice is becoming more and more 'normal' as times goes on, couldn't the Ivalice of FFT's beginning and ending be the same world as the Ivalice of the other games, simply far further along in the timeline, now devoid of nearly everything fantastic?

Mostly, discuss the changes in the world between the FF12/TA/TA2 time to that of T and Vagrant story.

Crack speculation about the last element should be secondary.

 

[Makoeyes987]

That Cataclysm of Ivalice truly tore it apart and whatever the cataclysm was, it wiped out several races.

If you look at some of the descriptions of the legendary places you can find in FFT, you'll see references to it.

The Sweggy Woods of FFT were the homes of moogles who are too extinct sadly.

Shit changes after thousands of years, unfortunately. And given how Jagd in FFXII was spreading and all, its possible Jagd eventually just...covered the entire world.

 

[ForceStealer]

By the thread title I thought you meant a lack of "good," lol.

Anyway, great topic. I've been pretty fascinated by the Ivalice timeline despite the fact that FFT is the only game in the series I really liked. (But I really liked it, in my ever shifting list of favorites, it has frequently occupied the spot 2nd to VII).

Ivalice is interesting in that it seems to be the opposite of Zelda. In that, in Zelda's case, Nintendo has never "officially" said anything about the games being connected and fans create timelines. On the other hand, Square were the ones to say Ivalice is a connected series, otherwise no one might have given it much, if any, thought.

I always would have placed FFT first, due to the lower technology (and Mustadio leading the way to new technologies). I clearly forgot myself and that weird fantasy thing of how high technology is only in the past.

So once I found out Tactics was LAST (or is Vagrant Story? whatever), I began scouring FFXII for things mentioned in Tactics past - namely, the battle between Zodiac Braves and the Lucavi. The espers in XII, of course, are named for the Lucavi, so is FFXII STILL after the events of the legend? Or did the Church of Glabados jsut invent the story completely?

If the story did take place and XII is before it, could it have been that battle that wiped out the other races and technology?

 

[Ryushikaze]

The cataclysm is definitely a major player- I figure it for the tech plummet- I just hate when the name of an event is the only explanation, especially since I want to know what caused the event, too.

What gets me about the Cataclysm is that it managed to wipe these races out, despite the sheer awesome amount of intermingling they did.
I figure in some way the Cataclysm is directly related to a lessening of the 'amount' of magic in the world, and the various fantastic races either died or simply grew less fantastic as the years wore on- becoming more or less ordinary humans.

And that puts an odd twist on the folks being overlaid by the image of the fantastic races in the FFTA cutscene

Alternately, it could just be that FFT, existing as it does in the Ivalician equivalent of our Dark Ages- literally- is extremely racially segregated, and that the Moogles are not extinct, but merely exiled from their homes in the provinces we typically think of As Ivalice by the church.

And yes, Vagrant Story, if it's canon to FFT, takes place well after it, as there is reference to the latter's events in the former.

 

[Cat Rage Room]

Whatever the specifics of the event is, FFT pretty much shoves it in your face that it's the Cataclysm, it attributes for pretty much every ruin and wonder you find.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Yeah, I just want to know what it WAS that it could so massively upset the world's tech while leaving the ruins and the technology itself as intact as it was. As well as how it seemed to leave humans, despite their living with all the other races in all other instances.

 

[Makoeyes987]

I wonder if it had anything to do with Saint Ajora and Ultima....

Because we all know that according to the Ivalice Timeline, there's now apparently TWO Saint Ajora's. Who knows what the fuck he and/or she did.

 

[ForceStealer]

I hope Ajora doesn't end up being like KH and Ansems

 

[Bex]

 

[Ryushikaze]

I hope Ajora doesn't end up being like KH and Ansems

I'm betting it's more a 'second coming' sort of thing rather than a 'I'm Ansem' 'No I'M Ansem'

And of course, the Second Ajora could be the First Ajora again, a la the final boss.

 

[ForceStealer]

Refresh my memory quick, was the final boss actually Ajora and everyone had been accidently worshipping the devil or was Ultima posing as Ajora? Can't remember.

 

[Makoeyes987]

The final boss of FF Tactics was Ultima. The High Seraph. The one who had been the host of Ultima was Ajora. But Ajora is nothing more than the vessel Ultima used to be born into this world.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Refresh my memory quick, was the final boss actually Ajora and everyone had been accidently worshipping the devil or was Ultima posing as Ajora? Can't remember.

The final boss of FF Tactics was Ultima. The High Seraph. The one who had been the host of Ultima was Ajora. But Ajora is nothing more than the vessel Ultima used to be born into this world.

What he said, Force
What I was trying to get at is that Ajora might just be Ultima's go to name for being reborn. Ultima decides 'You're my vessel' and you start calling yourself Ajora after awhile.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

I wasn't aware there was ever any debate about what the Cataclysm was. Ah well.

Pretty sure it happened when Ajora/Ultima was defeated 1200 years before the events of Tactics. It's mentioned that with Ajora's death came a tidal wave that completely sank Murond (though dimensionally displaced would seem to be the more accurate fate) -- and, of course, there's an airship graveyard there, meaning that airships were still around up to the point at which Ajora died.

So, I'd say that points to Ajora's death being the catalyst for the Cataclysm that ended the Golden Age.

And, of course, it's after Ajora's death that the chuch started to worship him. It sounds much like what happened with Yevon and Sin in FFX, actually: Catastrophe follows as a result of warmongering/greed, and -- in an attempt to sate a defeated foe's wrath -- the authority figures of the day institute a system of worship around that being. Following the Cataclysm, they may have even come to believe he had been a holy being.

As for Ajora's identity through the ages, the Japanese version of FFXII (under Sage Knowledge 07, The Light of Kiltia) references St. Ajora with the female form of "Saint." It also mentions that this Ajora founded a new religion several years after the events of FFXII (the English translation of this is in error, saying instead that it was several years after Kiltia's founding -- 2000 years before the events of FFXII -- misleading many English-reading folks to think that FFXII came after FFT).

What this would indicate to me is that Ajora likely played host to Ultima -- the esper tasked with the management of reincarnation prior to leading a revolt against the Occuria, according to FFXII -- at some point after the events of FFXII. In all likelihood, the espers wanted another shot at dominance in the world and realized that to manifest under their own will they would need a host.

I would conjecture that Ajora came across Ultima's glyph/zodiac stone at some point in her lifetime, agreed to become Ultima's human host in exchange for being reincarnated with her memories intact (possibly so she could preserve the religion she had founded in perpetuity), and then aided the other Lucavi demons in finding human hosts. With her brethren restored, they attempted to take over the world, leading to what is known as the legend of the Zodiac Braves and the subsequent Zodiac Brave Story witnessed in FFT.


As for the Ivalice chronology, it's like so:

FFXII
FFXII: Revenant Wings
FFTA2 (after the Gran Grimoire is used)
FFT
Vagrant Story
FFTA
FFTA2 (its present day, from the beginning and end of the game)

We know RW comes after FFXII for obvious reasons. We know FFTA2 comes after RW because the events of RW are referenced in a scene with Penelo and Vaan.

We know FFT comes after the others, again, for obvious reasons. We know VS comes after FFT partly because of magic's waning presence, and primarily because Alazlam J. Durai was alive some 400 years after the events of FFT according to that game's ending and his in-game profile, while the opening quote to VS from "A.J. Durai" makes it clear that this game was at least concurrent with his lifetime. Though I've also read that the official website for VS had a writing from him mention that the earthquake which destroyed Leá Monde was some 20 years earlier -- the same statement made in the game itself.

Next, we know that FFTA came later because of the more modern setting and the almost complete absence of the fantastic, as Ryu mentioned. Finally, we know that the events of FFTA2's present are after FFTA because Mewt Randell from the first game is now an adult.

 

[Ryushikaze]

Presumably, the 'fantastic' events of FFTA would occur around the same temporal period as the FF12 games, seeing as MontBlanc of FFTA2 is the same MontBlanc as FFTA, etc.

And I knew the Cataclysm had something to DO with Ajora, just not what it had to do. I don't recall it being detailed in the original game and I didn't see any explanation later on.

And that still doesn't quite explain the lack of the fantastics, unless Ajora/Ultima's displacement event got rid of them too, and that still begs the question why were humans spared?

 

[ForceStealer]

All right, so, not only did Tactics occur after FFXII, the legend of the Zodiac Braves did as well, right? Or just Ajora's death if the story didn't happen at all.

If the Zodiac Stones contain the Lucavi, what of the glyphs in XII? Why are they not Zodiac Stones? And when did they become Zodiac stones?

This is what's kind of frustrating about the Ivalice Alliance, none of the entries actually depict events described in the other entries, they just take place in different times in the world.
Which, by the way, is fine, and interestingly the polar opposite of what the Compilation of FF7 is doing. That is, every entry absolutely must be directly related to the events of FF7 with no unrelated stuff which can be frustrating for the opposite reason.
But you would have expected part of XII to include something about the war (between those 7 kingdoms Lionel, Zeltennia, Mullonde/Murond, and whatever they were), but it doesn't. Again, this is fine, it just makes me wonder how much Matsuno was actually planning this out, if he was at all. Because even all those years ago he rather stealthily put Vagrant Story in the same world.

Unfortunately, now that he's gone, I guess we'll never know if he had some plan to tie it together,

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

And that still doesn't quite explain the lack of the fantastics, unless Ajora/Ultima's displacement event got rid of them too, and that still begs the question why were humans spared?

There's really no explanation to be derived for why magic fell out of use, I think. Even in just the 400 years from FFT to VS it was falling by the wayside. Maybe it had something to do with the church's declining influence. Other spiritual stuff could have become square (or like modern Square amirite? ) along with it.

If FFT is the Middle Ages of Ivalice, then VS is the Renaissance. Even the aesthetics of the settings would suggest this.

As for why humans survived the Cataclysm while the other once plentiful races didn't, I'd guess it's because there was just more of them, so even if a shitton of them died along with the other races's populations, there'd still be enough left to repopulate. For that matter, the Viera might have made it through and just elected to stay away from humans after.

If the Zodiac Stones contain the Lucavi, what of the glyphs in XII? Why are they not Zodiac Stones? And when did they become Zodiac stones?

I kind of figured they were Zodiac Stones.

This is what's kind of frustrating about the Ivalice Alliance, none of the entries actually depict events described in the other entries, they just take place in different times in the world.

I prefer it that way. As you said, the Compilation of FFVII did the opposite and it largely sucks.

It also makes Ivalice feel more like a living, breathing world in my opinion. We don't need to know when every blade of grass grew, nor have it all depicted in a game.

 

[Makoeyes987]

All right, so, not only did Tactics occur after FFXII, the legend of the Zodiac Braves did as well, right? Or just Ajora's death if the story didn't happen at all.

If the Zodiac Stones contain the Lucavi, what of the glyphs in XII? Why are they not Zodiac Stones? And when did they become Zodiac stones?

You could think of the Zodiac Stones as the next generation of the glyphs.

We don't know when it happened. This is hundreds and hundreds of years after FFXII you know.

This is what's kind of frustrating about the Ivalice Alliance, none of the entries actually depict events described in the other entries, they just take place in different times in the world.
Which, by the way, is fine, and interestingly the polar opposite of what the Compilation of FF7 is doing. That is, every entry absolutely must be directly related to the events of FF7 with no unrelated stuff which can be frustrating for the opposite reason.

I don't really mind it personally. It allows us to have interesting discussions and theories about the world. The actual stories of the games are properly told and self contained, not to mention detailed in terms of its world. So I don't feel cheated. The mystery isn't nerdrage inducing, like other compliations.

 

[Ghost X]

There is a wiki article of some sort that seems to explain the story of Ivalice really well, though it doesn't answer what the cataclysm is etc (since I'm guessing there is absolutely no information on it). Its either on Wikipedia or a Final Fantasy wiki, or both. There needs to be more games in the Ivalice Alliance, perhaps one leading up to the events of the cataclysm. Sounds like everyone would like an explanation.

 

[ForceStealer]

Yeah, as I said I don't MIND the Ivalice Alliance as it is, just certain things about it can be frustrating. Just a little more slightly concrete tidbit now and then. (I know Montblanc is, but I mean with the old games)

To be honest, when I first learned that XII was in Ivalice and I saw screenshots of Belias, I thought maybe the main characters were going to be the Zodiac Braves

Speaking of which, where do you suppose the Espers in Tactics (the normal FF Pantheon) were during XII/came from in Tactics?

 

[Cat Rage Room]

While I don't mind the way they did Ivalice either, I would like them to eventually connect them and fill in major gaps eventually. I don't want the games to be a bunch of arbitrarily connected entries that SE never does anything with.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

What really needs to be filled in, though? We know the cause of the Cataclysm, even if not the exact circumstances; we know where the Lucavi came from and why they were imprisoned in stones, even if we haven't seen a depiction of those events; and we know magic/spirituality and the institutions using it for control over the common people gradually ceased to be the foundation of society, as in our own world, even if we don't know who or what exactly set it in motion.

What we have is a living history to a fictional world, with some major events depicted in painstaking detail while the significance of others is realized in how they influence later history. As with our own history, some things are known in vivid detail and others are not. Trying to fill in stuff just because it's there and can be is how we get shit like Sephiroth jumping into mako and Red XIII crying about being the last of his kind when a perfectly shaggable member of his species is two blocks away.

 

[ForceStealer]

I kind of figured they were Zodiac Stones.

Did they have the Zodiac signs on them?

Also, I don't think the Compilation's deficiencies are BECAUSE its focus on one series of events. That is what most series do, after all. Ivalice's appraoch, if anything, simply hides any mistakes they probably would have made because nothing's directly related.

 

[Madame Mayor]

It's one of those things where I prefer answers because I'm just a very curious person, but after a while when you've been waiting so long for them, anything they come up with will probably be disappointing [insert Lost example].

 

[Ryushikaze]

I'm mostly curious about the specifics on when and how the races went missing. If it was 'Cataclysm, poof' I think I'd actually be dissapointed. I don't really want a game dedicated to this, but a faux history book would be nice.