The Forgotten city (close off area)

[Lord Kesharq]

First off sorry if this has already been asked (newbi here) but i couldnt see anything on this in the first 3 pages of posts lol.


In the forgotten city, after the death of Aerith the area she was in when she dies becomes closed off to the player. Why did they do this?


I know there were rumors that if u got past that fish thing blocking the way u could see Aerith body/bring her back to life but does anyone know the real reason why they decided to block this area off? Seems pointless to me as i see no reason why we should be unable to go back down there.

























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[Jason Tandro]

There could be any number of reasons, most of which are likely plot related. After all there are literally dozens of areas you can't access after visiting them the first time: The Mako Reactors, plate 4, Cave of the Gi, etc.

Having it closed off also makes it seem more special that way. As Disk 1 ends there it os also possible that, to conserve space, the area is not included on Disk 2 / 3.

 

[JBedford]

Actually, closing it off would only take up more space on the disks, though not a lot. The field data is held on each disk so through save editing or mods you could get to the closed off areas. It takes up more space because of the additional fish graphic and code that goes into blocking off the area.

It would save space if there were an FMV background used in the blocked off areas since then they wouldn't have to put it on each disc, but I don't think there is.

Blocking it off is just great for the spreading of fan-theories and rumours. I might also imagine that people would try and look there for Holy when they get to that point in the game. Blocking it off may be a deterrent for that, but I kinda doubt that.

It's a fairly empty area, and unlike most other empty areas it strays greatly from the path of anywhere else. Having less places to return to to see if anything has changed is only a time saver.

 

[Sprites]

On the flipside of that question, there's no reason why we should need to go back down there

 

[SirVival]

On the flipside of that question, there's no reason why we should need to go back down there

Really? If nostalgia doesn't count as a reason, then I guess you're right.

Interesting thread. I always found this giant fish extremely irritating and it did serve some kind of purpose on many of the Aeris-resurrection theories. I guess the main reason why I hate it though is because it's a GIANT FUCKING FISH.

Whatever happened to blowing shit up? Whatever happened to earthquakes or a sudden collapse of the place, those would've been cool. Especially since they are used over and over again. Hell, while trying to re-enter the place why not just trigger Cloud to back the fuck up and say something like "bohoo, I'm too sad to go in there". In order to render the place off-limits, I would've approved of all of the above mentioned methods.

Instead we have a fish, piscis blockus. And a cute one at that. This rare specimen hasn't been seen ever since. The fucker is stuck between something that seems to resemble tree trunks. Did this lead to the extermination of the blockus -species as a whole? Why does it look at us with such innocence? Why do we have to leave it there to rot and die?

Why Squaresoft, why?

 

[Lex]

I'm going to put my hand up and say that on my first few playthroughs I did try at various points following disc 1 to go back down there.

As JBedford alluded to, it was actually more effort on their part to block it off. My theory is that they had difficulty/ couldn't be bothered removing the scripted sequence of events that happen down there so rather than messing with the pointers they just added the fish.

Someone should really ask them in an interview.

 

[Splintered]

I'm going to put my hand up and say that on my first few playthroughs I did try at various points following disc 1 to go back down there.

Guilty.

I doubt the Aerith coming back to life thing because interviews pretty much show that Aerith was suppose to die from very early on and there didn't look like any interest in revival.

I'm going with the "because it's special" and mysterious. We barely get a glimpse of that place, and it's the oddest, most out of place location yet. I feel like if they were going to open up that place, they would have to allow us to explore it, really explore it, and at least get a sense of the culture there.

I know for me, what I really wanted to know is what those little mirror things were for, the ones that if you touched, they shone a bright light and confused the player. But I think the intention was that the place was so far above your paygrade, you will never suppose to understand it.

I wonder if the sleeping forest was a way to protect the Ancients. Maybe from the normals, maybe from Jenova. I wonder if that's where most of them died. Wait, weren't they kind of nomadic? Then what's with the city?

Also, why a fucking fish?

 

[Novus]

Wasn't the fish a hologram? It does fit with the aquatic scenery of the place.

I like to think it was a creative decision, and it has effected my own creative work in terms of areas of no return. This does have precedent with such things as the Gaea's cliff.

However, if you ask me what the real reason is, I'd say its just reverted to the earlier map once you enter, just like Cosmo Canyon.

I'd have to look at the code to know if it was deliberate or not.

 

[Lex]

^Wait, for some reason I'd forgotten the fish was there before, then came back. I don't know why I'd forgotten that.

Indeed, since it was created that way in the first place, you're absolutely right. It can't have been extra effort for them to "block it off", since after the scripted event where the fish isn't there at all it just reverts back to its old state.

So I suppose they didn't really "make it unavailable" at all. I guess they just thought it didn't matter, and I suppose it doesn't. I'd still like it if there was something more down there. The whole place is so mystical and special, and that particular part is made moreso by the fact that you only see it once then you can never go back.

 

[Novus]

Well look at it another way how many times in fantasy have magical transparent stairs ever appeared and not dissipated after their intended purpose was done? The entire thing is an interactive cinematic sequence.
As I said, you'd have to see the code itself to make the final judgement.

 

[JBedford]

I too completely forgot about the fish being there before you have to down. And then I felt really stupid :p

If Var[3][132] & (1 << 4)

So when the fourth bit in V[3][132] is off, the fish graphic displays. When it is on the stairs are displayed (and the walkmesh for the stairs is enabled), and different music plays. This applies to other areas too since the music is changed almost everywhere in the city at this moment in the game.

The bit is turned on after Cloud sleeps, and the bit is turned off again when Cloud does his "I'm Cloud, ex-SOLDIER, born in Nibelheim." speech, after Aeris dies.

 

[Flintlock]

^Wait, for some reason I'd forgotten the fish was there before, then came back. I don't know why I'd forgotten that.

I too completely forgot about the fish being there before you have to down. And then I felt really stupid :p

This is exactly what I was going to mention once I saw the opening post.

The whole "underground" area of the Forgotten Capital is only open for a specific time. We can speculate about what caused it to open to Cloud's party, of course, and that may give a reason as to why it was closed again afterwards. When the party wakes up in the night, Cloud says:

"I feel it..."

"Aeris is here.
...and so is Sephiroth."

So I would guess the presence of one or the other of those two was the trigger. As for which one, I'd say Aeris, due to the dialogue afterwards as he walks towards the underground area:

"Aeris' voice...... Coming from there?"

If I had to guess, I'd say that her praying for Holy was enough to make Cloud feel her presence and open the "fish path". But then again, she stops praying once she dies, yet the entrance must remain open for Cloud to carry her outside and lay her to rest in the water. Who knows?

 

[Novus]

So... is anything within Forgotten City (the citadel where Aerith, dies not the entire place) related to plot progression value? As in, if the variable J-B mentioned is activated on Disk 3 or 2 and you enter the stairway, does it have Aerith and Cloud's lone ascent to her?
I can't see the map being blank (meaning no event/Aerith model).

 

[JBedford]

Uh. If you go to the first area at GM/PPV=644 "Anxious Heart" plays, any other time "Flowers Blooming in the Church". Cid's and Tifa's models are also available. At a glance it looks like it will work fine.

New PC so I haven't got VII downloaded yet so I haven't tested it.

 

[The Twilight Mexican]

This is exactly what I was going to mention once I saw the opening post.

The whole "underground" area of the Forgotten Capital is only open for a specific time. We can speculate about what caused it to open to Cloud's party, of course, and that may give a reason as to why it was closed again afterwards. When the party wakes up in the night, Cloud says:

So I would guess the presence of one or the other of those two was the trigger. As for which one, I'd say Aeris, due to the dialogue afterwards as he walks towards the underground area:

If I had to guess, I'd say that her praying for Holy was enough to make Cloud feel her presence and open the "fish path". But then again, she stops praying once she dies, yet the entrance must remain open for Cloud to carry her outside and lay her to rest in the water. Who knows?

I've always figured that Seph opened the path and let Cloud hear her since he wanted Cloud to go to her.

 

[JBedford]

So here's how it is:

Spoiler: Screenshot of Cid at the altar jumping back to the previous screen

.

The areas are fully functional after. But if you go there before you are intended to then the Aeris events will play out.

So given that an Aeris theme is programmed to play here if you go here after she dies, the other world-explorers (Tifa and Cid) are programmed to work here, and that the Aeris events checks the PPV before working, I think it would be safe to assume that those that programmed the room didn't know or consider that these wouldn't be re-explorable.

So it's quite easy to put back in the game.

Field #631, group #2, main script: Change the first line's if statement (in Makou Reactor):
Variable, 2, 0, >=, Value, 664, 16-bit unsigned

Ergo, If PPV >= 664 Then stairs.

 

[Novus]

Uh wow, that's fairly major in my opinion. Thanks a lot for doing it.

So are the Tifa and Cid models ready to appear at the top map (water alter or whatever it is called) as in a unique event where characters just emerge, or is that just a remnant of the aerith death scene?

If you posted this ten years ago everyone would be p1ssing themselves with new resurrection rumors.

EDIT:

So Google is telling me this is unique information that JBed has uncovered. (ignore my last line about my operating system, I'm retarded)

 

[JBedford]

So are the Tifa and Cid models ready to appear at the top map (water alter or whatever it is called) as in a unique event where characters just emerge, or is that just a remnant of the aerith death scene?

I wasn't sure of the question, but does this answer it?

(belated reply, I thought a video might explain things easier. I video edit on Windows Live (like a pro), but WL just refuses to work on my computer so I spent hours trying to fix it, and another few waiting for the weak processor and RAM on my laptop to do the job)

 

[Novus]

Awesome video. Yes it does answer it.

However my mind isn't entirely satisfied. For instance are Cid and Tifa enabled in other areas of no return such as 'Cave of the Gi', 'Whirlwind Maze' and any other you can think of.
Is it possible this is a default for every dungeon in the game regardless of accessibility? The fact that flowers blooming can be heard before Aerith's death tells us that may just be the default for the map(s), and perhaps it was changed at a latter point when they realised they wanted the anxious heart theme instead. Perhaps they thought the scene flowed better continuously playing so then 'flowers blooming' just became a remnant.

Perhaps a better way of explaining this would be floor 69 of the Shinra headquarters. We are first introduced to it with the trail of blood theme, however I suspect its actual background theme by default is the 'Infiltrating Shinra Tower' theme. If you check Floor 70 (the one containing the President's corpse) its possible it might also have that background music (infiltrating Shinra Tower) and not trail of blood or 'The Shinra corporation' which plays upon discovery of the corpse. If floor 70 is still accessible in Disk 2 with Cid and Tifa and still contains the Shinra corpse, then I'd say it also argues against the current Forgotten city theory. In a way this setup is directly the same.

 

[JBedford]

However my mind isn't entirely satisfied. For instance are Cid and Tifa enabled in other areas of no return such as 'Cave of the Gi', 'Whirlwind Maze' and any other you can think of.

Here's a quick overview:

-Most (but not all) of the revisitable areas of Midgar have Tifa and Cid models. All but the church in Sector 5, but only just over half in S6.
-Most (but not all) of the revisitable areas of Gold Saucer have Tifa and Cid models. My guess is at one point in development Tifa and Cid might have been planned to return here. This is backed up by these being the other two party members featured in the minigames. I think the only room without Cid and Tifa is second floor of Wonder Square.
-The Corel Prison areas with exception to Coate's room have Tifa and Cid.
-The non-destroyed Mideel doesn't have Cloud (everyone but).
-The destroyed Mideel only has Cloud.
-The raid-on-Midgar exclusive areas of Midgar, only Cloud.
-The Sunken Gelnika areas only have Cloud.
-Junon Underwater Reactor-- only Cloud.
-Rocket areas--only Cloud (although Cid model in places where Cid appears).
-Temple of Ancients-- only Cloud.
-Cave of the Gi features /everyone/. The descent down features Tifa and Cid. Seto room features only the available cast at that point.
-Gaea's Cliff-- Barret and Aeris model appear in some rooms randomly.
-Whirlwind Maze-- only Cloud.
-Mind Field/Cloud's subconscious doesn't have Cid.
-Coal Train features Cloud but not Tifa. Cloud's not scripted for the events or anything.
-Northern Cave only Cloud, sometimes everyone but Aeris for no reason.

Though there are random areas:
-After No.1 Reactor explodes, the area with a billboard, a clock, and a water fountain(?) in the middle, as well as the area Cloud jumps on the train from.
-The southern area of the Train Graveyard, where you emerge from the sewers.
-The Shinra Building stairs and internal elevator have Tifa and Cid, but not the other areas, elevator exit event and floor 59, 61, 64, 65. Some of these areas feature every character model which is pointless.
-Doctor's Office and Gas Room have Cid. Like all the other areas in this section of Junon.

The fact that flowers blooming can be heard before Aerith's death tells us that may just be the default for the map(s), and perhaps it was changed at a latter point when they realised they wanted the anxious heart theme instead. Perhaps they thought the scene flowed better continuously playing so then 'flowers blooming' just became a remnant.

Well yes, Flowers Blooming is the default for the map. However the use of PPV<673 for the event makes it clear that the room is not meant to be accessed earlier than the night Aeris dies. That much is certain. But if the area was only going to be used once then what was the point in the IF condition at all? The PPV is always less than 673 when in that room.

Anxious Heart is made to be the BGM during the event. Just like everywhere else. I think it would be a stretch to say it's a remnant, because they specifically programmed "Flowers Blooming" to play when it is not time for Anxious Heart to play.

The area where Cloud almost strikes down Aeris only used in the event? No Flowers Blooming or an IF condition, Anxious Heart is always set to play when entering the room, and whenever in that room the same event will be forced to play out.

Perhaps a better way of explaining this would be floor 69 of the Shinra headquarters. We are first introduced to it with the trail of blood theme, however I suspect its actual background theme by default is the 'Infiltrating Shinra Tower' theme. If you check Floor 70 (the one containing the President's corpse) its possible it might also have that background music (infiltrating Shinra Tower) and not trail of blood or 'The Shinra corporation' which plays upon discovery of the corpse. If floor 70 is still accessible in Disk 2 with Cid and Tifa and still contains the Shinra corpse, then I'd say it also argues against the current Forgotten city theory. In a way this setup is directly the same.

Not quite the same. If there were multiple areas that all changed music at the same time, it would be easier for a programmer to just copy and paste. FFVII is definitely on the more sloppy side of things. I think the Unused Text series shows that more than anything,

Floor 70 contains no Infiltrating. Default is Shinra Company. PPV==302 play Trail of Blood. PPV==320 play Still More Fighting. Dead Shinra's model stays there until the end of the game, though it's not like you can return to see it. Cid can't appear, Tifa can-- but so can Barret, Aeris, and Red.

Floor 69 has IF PPV==302 play Trail of Blood, else play Infiltrating. I just booted my game and F66 and below and F69 play Infiltrating while F67 and F68 play Trail of Blood.

 

[Lord Kesharq]

wow guys, thanks for all the repily, also the poster of the video get speical thanks as it was really cool to see this being done.

(i wont be able to do that as i suck at programming and stuff like that).

Also nice to see i was not the only one who was annoyed at the fish/had questions about this place.