The Jenova Project: Remake

TooManyFandoms

Uses the internet
#1
Besides Cloud's in-game statement that the experiments on him were similar to those done to produce members of SOLDIER 1st Class, we really don't know much about what happened to him and Zack during those four years in the Shinra mansion. Disregarding statements from SE, is there anything about the lore that you would like to be expanded on or changed (such as keeping Genesis (project G) and Angeal and their parts in the story or changing Hojo's objective for the experiments themselves) in the Remake?

I would personally like to see more flashbacks (if I didn't hate Hojo enough already) as well as a playable segment of Zack and Cloud's escape (playing as Zack of course :P).

Thoughts? My apologies if this topic has already been covered.
 
#2
Besides Cloud's in-game statement that the experiments on him were similar to those done to produce members of SOLDIER 1st Class, we really don't know much about what happened to him and Zack during those four years in the Shinra mansion. Disregarding statements from SE, is there anything about the lore that you would like to be expanded on or changed (such as keeping Genesis (project G) and Angeal and their parts in the story or changing Hojo's objective for the experiments themselves) in the Remake?

I would personally like to see more flashbacks (if I didn't hate Hojo enough already) as well as a playable segment of Zack and Cloud's escape (playing as Zack of course :P).

Thoughts? My apologies if this topic has already been covered.
Personally, I found the "crisis" in Crisis Core to be most of the hodgepodge-y, narratively asymmetrical, generally botched attempts at adding new, major components to events that had been depicted in the OG (Nibelheim Incident in general being the most infamous and thread-worthy, and the Jenova shit-uation being a bit of an offshoot of that). So, as you might imagine, I'd like to see those additions back in nonexistence where they belong. As well, Hojo's goal re: Sephiroth 'Clones' and the Reunion, and then Cloud being mistaken for a 'Failure' and his subsequent (brilliant) freakout at the North Crater later on, is all pretty central to the OG's late-game plot, and I'd hate to see THAT get altered, so...I'd say don't mess with the soup there, per favore. It's a spicy enough meatball as it is.

Sooooo...I'd like a more detailed depiction of our boys (miserable) lives in the tubes, and, unless they're just going to cut from the basement to them on the road (which would be just fine with me), a better explanation of their plan and method of escape from that whole situation. The whole 'guy scraping invisible food and then BAM! bustout' (Feeding time...that's our chance...!) after YEARS in there just isn't gon' work for me nowadays. Overall, though, I prefer keeping it with a bit of mystique, because I found as with many 'Expanded Universes', the more and more literal-minded details/explanations added for things previously left a bit open can have the undesirable side effects of A. Robbing players of the 'fill in the blanks yourself' experience you don't even know you love until it's gone, and B. Making events that seemed mythical in their partial-mystery, seem silly and/or ridiculous in their newfound blow-by-blow definitions. A good modern example is Metal Gear Solid 4's "Nanomachines...nanomachines?? Nanomachines!!! ....Also, it was nanomachines."

[Unrelated edit: Man, I forgot how crazy the time zone differences can make things like a forum. Evening is just kicking off here in NY (it's 6:52pm as I type), and it says Fandom's original post was from 8:15pm. *Gasp!* The Future!!]
 
Last edited:

hleV

Pro Adventurer
#3
  1. What's Hojo's motive for putting Zack up for the Jenova Reunion experiment? ("He's beat up so maybe it'll work" is fine, just mention it.)
  2. Mako showering, Jenova cell injection... What are their parts in producing monsters/super soldiers?
  3. What's the point of showering Nibelheim survivors in Mako for 4 YEARS?
  4. Does Cloud's 4-year-lasting procedure put him above normal SOLDIERs?
 
#4
I have theorized this is another spot where the writers momentarily forgot their own plot.
Having looked at the writing, I feel fairly certain that originally the plan was for Jenova cells to only have been used on Sephiroth and the numbered "clones" - not on the other SOLDIERs, who were only exposed to Mako.
In that version of events, injecting Zack and Cloud with Sephiroth cells - I.E human Jenova cells - would be a reasonable experiement.

However, as Cloud later reveals that apparently all SOLDIERs received Jenova treatment, which is what they later run with in the comp, the tank scene actually doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Why expose Zack to more treatment if he was already treated with both Mako and Jenova cells as a 1st Class SOLDIER?
Cloud makes sense. He defeated Sephiroth, and had previously not undergone any treatment, so he should be a promising test-subject, but Zack?

Nah, I think I'll just jot this down to another careless miss on par for the authors.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#5
That was likely done with Zack more for the players' benefit -- to have enough pieces to understand it all without it needing to be spelled out.

Along similar lines, the former member of SOLDIER running the accessory shop in Junon who feels compelled to don a black cloak without understanding why (Jenova cells, Sephiroth's call, the Reunion, etc.) gives us insight into the setting.
 

Roger

Gentleman Adventurer
AKA
Minato
#6
I have theorized this is another spot where the writers momentarily forgot their own plot.
Having looked at the writing, I feel fairly certain that originally the plan was for Jenova cells to only have been used on Sephiroth and the numbered "clones" - not on the other SOLDIERs, who were only exposed to Mako.
In that version of events, injecting Zack and Cloud with Sephiroth cells - I.E human Jenova cells - would be a reasonable experiement.

However, as Cloud later reveals that apparently all SOLDIERs received Jenova treatment, which is what they later run with in the comp, the tank scene actually doesn't make a whole lot of sense.
Why expose Zack to more treatment if he was already treated with both Mako and Jenova cells as a 1st Class SOLDIER?
Cloud makes sense. He defeated Sephiroth, and had previously not undergone any treatment, so he should be a promising test-subject, but Zack?

Nah, I think I'll just jot this down to another careless miss on par for the authors.
Even in much earlier versions of FFVII story, having Jenova inside them was tied to SOLDIER's ability to use Mako. It's Zack that came along later on in the writing process and needed to be put somewhere.
 
#7
That was likely done with Zack more for the players' benefit -- to have enough pieces to understand it all without it needing to be spelled out.

Along similar lines, the former member of SOLDIER running the accessory shop in Junon who feels compelled to don a black cloak without understanding why (Jenova cells, Sephiroth's call, the Reunion, etc.) gives us insight into the setting.
I am not sure see how adding Zack to the scene adds anything in terms of understanding on par of the player? The scene is optional for one, and once most people get access to it, they'll already have learned of the process that goes into creating SOLDIER.
It still raises (and doesn't explain) why Zack is being processed witt, ostensibly, the same treatment as Cloud.

The Junon shop-keeper doesn't have to mean anything. All the other black cloaded men are people processed with Sephiroth's Jenova-fused cells as far as I know, and so it's seems to me that the implication here could just be that the Junon shop keeper was also submitted to the Sephiroth-copy treatment, not that he was subjected to Jenova cells as a part of joining SOLDIER.

Even in much earlier versions of FFVII story, having Jenova inside them was tied to SOLDIER's ability to use Mako. It's Zack that came along later on in the writing process and needed to be put somewhere.
Could be true, but even if it was it's not very pertinent to what I was getting at.
What order the problem arises is doesn't change the argument for it being a plot inconsistency. As such, I still feel it is probably yet another example of a minor accident that results from large narratives worked on by multiple people, and not something fan's should be bending backwards trying to accomodate (not saying you are in this case specifically - just as a generally commentary). I'm willing to change my mind on which part's inclusion lead to the inconsistency though.

I would be very interested in what you mean by earlier versions of the story? I'm not familiar with anything that suggests what you're saying here.
Also, I suppose you meant materia, not mako, as mako isn't something SOLDIERs use for anything as far as I know.
In either case, in Midgar, you have children using materia. All of the party outside of Cloud can use materia, and presumably profficiently at that.
As far as I know, Zack was conjured up very early in development, when they changed Cloud's design and introduced the theme of identity.

I don't think there is any part in the game (at the very least prior to) outside of Cloud's speech in the control room that describes the SOLDIER process as involving Jenova cells, so the actual OG story building into that claim is pretty sparse.
On the other hand you have the following :
- Jenova laying dormant in Shinra building all up until Cloud gets there despite being surrounded by people supposedly injected with her cells.
- Zack being reprocessed with Sephiroth/Jenova cells (and mako) despite already having been so as a 1st Class
- The pointless process of pursuing "Sephiroth copy" research resulting in continuous failure despite the fact that adult cell therapy supposedly produced strong, reliable and stable SOLDIER anyway.

Clearly, direct speech from Cloud is more compelling on the surface, but I'd say that in setting that single statement of dialogue off as a mistake actually improves the story, and that taking it for what it is, detracts from it.


The way I see it, the plot would simply be a lot tidier if the following were true
- SOLDIERs are made only with mako treatment.
- In pursuing a stronger type of SOLDIER, Shinra did an off-hand experiment, injecting fetus Sephiroth (and perhaps others) with Jenova cells, after discovering Jenova.
- Sephiroth was the (only) success, hence why the Shinra then pursued injecting others with Sephiroth's cells in hope that whatever trait Sephiroth had
would temper the effect of the Jenova cells on other people. This didn't really work, as is apparent with the black cloaked people.

The following take allows for reuinion to work (since it would only apply to the Sephiroth copies, not to other SOLDIER), makes sense of why Zack is given treatment, explains why Jenova lays dormant in Shinra Building until Cloud approaches it, allows you to not muck about with the "strength of will" excuse to explain why some SOLDIER are prone to being controlled by Jenova while others aren't (after all, strength of will isn't a very good excuse when we're talking about a space alien that nearly wiped out the ancients), and also makes sense of Shinra's motivation for pursuing Sephiroth copies in the first place (by eliminating any competing alternative like "conventional Jenova treatment).
I know this isn't how the plot ended up, nor necessarily how it was first imagined - I'm just saying this seems a lot more tidy, and so when I noticed discrepencies, I tend towards thinking the discrepencies that create the additional convolution are probably ones added over time.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#9
I am not sure see how adding Zack to the scene adds anything in terms of understanding on par of the player? The scene is optional for one, and once most people get access to it, they'll already have learned of the process that goes into creating SOLDIER.
It still raises (and doesn't explain) why Zack is being processed witt, ostensibly, the same treatment as Cloud.
The notes on the floor of the mansion basement tell the player that Cloud had a desired reaction to Jenova's cells while someone like Zack did not. It gives the player a better understanding of what was going on with the Sephiroth Copy experiment (a strong will that made someone suitable for SOLDIER made them unsuitable for this experiment), as well as informs us of one of the game's greatest ironies: the fact that Cloud was actually a successful test subject despite what we had been told earlier in the game, and would have ended up just like the black-cloaked people had Zack not gotten him out of there.

hian said:
The Junon shop-keeper doesn't have to mean anything. All the other black cloaded men are people processed with Sephiroth's Jenova-fused cells as far as I know, and so it's seems to me that the implication here could just be that the Junon shop keeper was also submitted to the Sephiroth-copy treatment, not that he was subjected to Jenova cells as a part of joining SOLDIER.
He wouldn't be running a shop in Junon were he part of the Sephiroth Copy experiment. The black-cloaked people (i.e. the subjects of the Sephiroth Copy experiment) were the survivors of Sephiroth's massacre in Nibelheim. The only connection between them and this random former SOLDIER could be having Jenova cells.

By the way, the use of Sephiroth's cells for the Sephiroth Copy experiment is a change that came with the Compilation. The original game's story (and even the FFVII Ultimania Omega's overview of it) specifies that the experiment utilized Jenova's cells (no mention of them being Sephiroth's synthesized hybrid derivative) and mako, precisely the same as the SOLDIER treatment process. The only difference between the experiment and the SOLDIER treatment process was that the experiment was deliberately using people who hadn't been determined psychologically fit to receive the treatments and maintain their own identities.

hian said:
As far as I know, Zack was conjured up very early in development, when they changed Cloud's design and introduced the theme of identity.
Kitase, Nojima and Nomura have all said that Zack came in very late in development:

https://thelifestream.net/lifestrea...o-13-of-the-ffvii-10th-anniversary-ultimania/

Nomura didn't even have time to color his design, Kitase was directing scenes without knowing how Zack's role would play out, Nojima was asking programmers to make additions to completed scenes to foreshadow Zack's presence, etc.

hian said:
I don't think there is any part in the game (at the very least prior to) outside of Cloud's speech in the control room that describes the SOLDIER process as involving Jenova cells, so the actual OG story building into that claim is pretty sparse.
On the other hand you have the following :
- Jenova laying dormant in Shinra building all up until Cloud gets there despite being surrounded by people supposedly injected with her cells.
- Zack being reprocessed with Sephiroth/Jenova cells (and mako) despite already having been so as a 1st Class
- The pointless process of pursuing "Sephiroth copy" research resulting in continuous failure despite the fact that adult cell therapy supposedly produced strong, reliable and stable SOLDIER anyway.
The Sephiroth copies weren't supposed to be stable. That was the entire point: their purpose was to test the Reunion Theory, not be weaponized assets. A stable copy (e.g. Zack) was a failure.
 
#10
That Junon shopkeeper also never actually leaves, right? He just feels compelled to don a cloak? That would track with him being a retired SOLDIER. His will/sense of self was too strong to actually be drawn in the direction of the Reunion, but still felt a niggling urge to start dressing like the clones did.
 
Last edited:

TooManyFandoms

Uses the internet
#12
The way I see it, the plot would simply be a lot tidier if the following were true
- SOLDIERs are made only with mako treatment.
- In pursuing a stronger type of SOLDIER, Shinra did an off-hand experiment, injecting fetus Sephiroth (and perhaps others) with Jenova cells, after discovering Jenova.
- Sephiroth was the (only) success, hence why the Shinra then pursued injecting others with Sephiroth's cells in hope that whatever trait Sephiroth had
would temper the effect of the Jenova cells on other people. This didn't really work, as is apparent with the black cloaked people.
I agree that this is the way to go about it, having the experimentation be the same as the SOLDIER process, yet take 4 1/2 +(Zack and Cloud escaped) years, and doing it to Zack as well never made sense to me. I know Hojo's motive in the original game was just to test the Jenova Reunion theory, but I wonder if in the remake his motivation will be different. What if because Sephiroth was presumed dead at that point, Hojo was trying to make the "next" Sephiroth? Or maybe he was trying to find a method of communication with Jenova, and needed people as conduits?
 
#15
Okay, so I know this has been brought up before, and that it's one of the most confusing (and thus one of my favorite) parts of the original game's script...it's a question about the original narrative, too, so forgive this further aside from the OT about Remake depictions.

In the scene in the North Crater
Hojo and Cloud have their little "failure" discussion that sets up the breakdown, and after Cloud soars up into the crystalline ceiling, Hojo says:

"He's a Sephiroth-clone I created after the real Sephiroth died five years ago. Jenova cells and Mako, with my knowledge and skills, have been combined with science and nature to bring him to life."

Now, I know that some of the confusion springs from the fact that Hojo is supposed to be mistaken about the particular individual he's engaging with; Cloud is not (truly) a failure re: the Reunion (having been summoned by Sephiroth while thinking he was pursuing him), did have a genuine family and upbringing, was present for the Nibelheim incident, etc. But, my question is...even if he was mistaking Cloud for other test subject(s), who (or what) was Hojo referring to or mistaking him for? Is this a case of misleading translation? The wording, at least, makes it sound as if Hojo literally BUILT in his lab creatures that resemble humans, but are in actuality manually-constructed Sephiroth Clones, Blade Runner Replicant style. But, as far as we know, the 'Clones' are really just regular human beings whose consciousness, identity, and will have been completely devastated by the Jenova process...right? Is it just a simple case of awkward English phrasing, where by "brought to life", Hojo really means "Jenova, Mako, and my skills made [the clones] what you see before you today" (as opposed to the normal human beings they once were)? Or what? We know that Sephiroth's many monologues about Cloud being a construct with a fabricated history are manipulations, but Hojo seems to believe what he's stating here to be accurate.

I remember the first time playing through the game, the possibility of Cloud having been literally assembled piece by piece like a goddamn nightmarish Build-A-Bear, and then implanted with false memories, reallllly got under my skin and was one of the game's creepiest concepts, and its something I always forget about until I experience that sequence again in a replay.
 
Last edited:
#18
Hojo's a crap scientist. He tried to breed a woman with a cat-dog thing. He uses 'science' as a thinly-veiled excuse for torturing people. He's never invented or discovered a single useful thing. Lucretia had more science in her little finger than he has in his whole body. Whatever significant achievements were made by the science dpeartment were made under Gast. Hojo was willing to kill, lie, and exploit people ruthlessly to become HoD, and then all he did with his power was breed bizarre mutations who could be easily taken down by low-level party members. He had his 'reunion theory' he wanted to test, which was going to be about as much use to Shinra and/or the planet as a bag of vibrators with no batteries, and he just took Zack to torture him because he could. Shinra couldn't let Zack or Cloud live anyway because they knew too much, so why not let Dr Mengele have them? It was a sheer fluke that Cloud turned out to be a success. Sort of.
 

Roger

Gentleman Adventurer
AKA
Minato
#19
Hojo's a crap scientist. He tried to breed a woman with a cat-dog thing. He uses 'science' as a thinly-veiled excuse for torturing people. He's never invented or discovered a single useful thing. Lucretia had more science in her little finger than he has in his whole body. Whatever significant achievements were made by the science dpeartment were made under Gast. Hojo was willing to kill, lie, and exploit people ruthlessly to become HoD, and then all he did with his power was breed bizarre mutations who could be easily taken down by low-level party members. He had his 'reunion theory' he wanted to test, which was going to be about as much use to Shinra and/or the planet as a bag of vibrators with no batteries, and he just took Zack to torture him because he could. Shinra couldn't let Zack or Cloud live anyway because they knew too much, so why not let Dr Mengele have them? It was a sheer fluke that Cloud turned out to be a success. Sort of.
The Jenova Project was intended to create an entity that would lead them to the Promised Land (which Shinra invisioned to be Mako central) Hojo delivered success with his personal experiments where all his collaborations with Gast and Lucretia were utter failures.
 
#20
Hojo is a monster, but he's not a crap scientist. His work is the only project that didn't come with some horrible side effect. Hollander's projects degrade, the Ravens lose their minds. Deepground, based on Project G, are Mako dependent, insane, and/or uncontrollable.

The SOLDIER program under Hojo worked fine. Gast misclassified JENOVA as an Ancient, which led to everything that followed, Hojo seemed to know better. He seems to demonstrate pure indifference to suffering than sadism.

He makes monsters because his job is to make monsters, some of which are very formidable. He understands more of what is actually happening than basically every other character, and was able to successfully use Lucrecia's 'abstract, complex' thesis to trigger Omega.
 
#21
https://thelifestream.net/lifestrea...5-of-the-final-fantasy-vii-ultimania-omega/2/

https://thelifestream.net/lifestrea...the-final-fantasy-vii-ultimania-omega-part-2/

Jenova being at the heart of people's comtrol over magic was a concept that was ironed out before Cloud identity crisis or even her being this alien creature was ironed.
That's not at all what does links say.

The alternate hypothesis is exactly that - alternate - an aspect of the scenario that was scrapped or changed.
At that point, Jenova was "a certain region of the brain, or genes. The name is taken from “Jenova”, a book left behind by a race known as the Ancients. Normally it isn’t used, but rarely there are people in whom it awakens naturally. ",

and

"The life force of the planet. Shinra bathes SOLDIER operatives directly with this pure energy. Those who have been bathed in mako gain superhuman physical strength, vitality, and healing abilities, and their dormant Jenova becomes easier to awaken. However, when the energy runs out they take various mental damages, such as rapid weakness, anxiety, fear and loneliness. Also, though it is actually already known that it has addictive effects and withdrawal symptoms, and that if overexposed people will turn into something not human, Shinra continue to infusing SOLDIER with mako energy like stoking coal into an engine. "

In this version, Jenova is integral to magic because Jenova describes the part of the brain or genes that is responsible for human's being able to use magic, and is a facet of all humans.

In the finished scenario Jenova is an alien lifeform that only a few have in them, but magic is a type of knowledge contained within the lifestream which anyone can access through the use of materia, whether they have Jenova cells or not.
This is made clearly apparent throughout the game by virtue of all the people not infected by Jenova that can use magic, as I've already mentioned and is consistently demonstrated all throughout the finished scenario of FFVII.

It's incorrect to characterize this as "ironed out", and it's even more incorrect to imply this somehow justified the earlier statement you made
("Even in much earlier versions of FFVII story, having Jenova inside them was tied to SOLDIER's ability to use Mako. It's Zack that came along later on in the writing process and needed to be put somewhere.").
In earlier versions Jenova was not the same as the Jenova we're speaking of now, and was not tied to SOLDIER's ability to use mako, but to all living thing's ability to use magic at all - a skill that could be awakened either naturally, or through mako exposure.

The second link has this to say as well
"At first the Reunion concept didn’t exist, and Cloud was Sephiroth’s alter ego."

The notes on the floor of the mansion basement tell the player that Cloud had a desired reaction to Jenova's cells while someone like Zack did not. It gives the player a better understanding of what was going on with the Sephiroth Copy experiment (a strong will that made someone suitable for SOLDIER made them unsuitable for this experiment), as well as informs us of one of the game's greatest ironies: the fact that Cloud was actually a successful test subject despite what we had been told earlier in the game, and would have ended up just like the black-cloaked people had Zack not gotten him out of there.
My point was that I don't think that contrivance is justified when there is a trimmer and more parsimonious plot that can be told involving less potentially contradictive parts. The fact still remains that there is no reason for Zack to be subjected to this procedure.

He wouldn't be running a shop in Junon were he part of the Sephiroth Copy experiment. The black-cloaked people (i.e. the subjects of the Sephiroth Copy experiment) were the survivors of Sephiroth's massacre in Nibelheim. The only connection between them and this random former SOLDIER could be having Jenova cells.
I stand corrected then.
That's very easy to iron out though. When I'm proposing a change in the plot, obviously you'd change things like that as well to fit the new narrative.
This is easily an easier thing to change or dismiss than the nature of why Zack, a central plot character, is being subjected to something that makes no logistical sense given the game's narrative. Either don't have the shop keeper be a former SOLDIER, or have the shop keeper done the cloak and leave for the crator like everyone else.

By the way, the use of Sephiroth's cells for the Sephiroth Copy experiment is a change that came with the Compilation. The original game's story (and even the FFVII Ultimania Omega's overview of it) specifies that the experiment utilized Jenova's cells (no mention of them being Sephiroth's synthesized hybrid derivative) and mako, precisely the same as the SOLDIER treatment process. The only difference between the experiment and the SOLDIER treatment process was that the experiment was deliberately using people who hadn't been determined psychologically fit to receive the treatments and maintain their own identities.
And that just makes the scene even more confounding.
Zack had already been subject to the SOLDIER-making process successfully.
Why would Hojo and Shinra after having made many SOLDIERS successfully suddenly get the idea to create a "Sephiroth copy" or alternatively testing the reunion theory by basically redoing the very thing they'd been doing all along - a method fundamentally different from how Sephiroth was made in the first place, or a theory that had been tested over and over again with every SOLDIER they ever made?

Again, this just damages the writing.

Kitase, Nojima and Nomura have all said that Zack came in very late in development:

https://thelifestream.net/lifestrea...o-13-of-the-ffvii-10th-anniversary-ultimania/

Nomura didn't even have time to color his design, Kitase was directing scenes without knowing how Zack's role would play out, Nojima was asking programmers to make additions to completed scenes to foreshadow Zack's presence, etc.
Stand corrected on that as well. I was probably confusing it with statements on how Zack's designs were decided upon, since he's based on Cloud's scrapped original design.

The Sephiroth copies weren't supposed to be stable. That was the entire point: their purpose was to test the Reunion Theory, not be weaponized assets. A stable copy (e.g. Zack) was a failure.
That still doesn't address the problem. Why is Zack, a 1st Class SOLDIER who has clearly already passed the process successfully and is a stable specimen, being resubmitted to the very thing he's already shown to be resistant to?
Whether you suppose the reason was to legimitately create a Sephiroth copy, or to create a vegetable to test reunion theory the problem remains the same - Zack has no reason for being there because he's already a successfull subject of the SOLDIER process.

In a version where reunion can be done simply by a normal SOLDIER-making process on mentally weak people, it seems to me that there must have been a slew of early test experiments from when the SOLDIER method was originally being devised that would also be called to reunion - unless we're supposed to believe that the first SOLDIERs were a success from the get go, and Shinra could just tell every time whether they were dealing with an appropriate candidate or not.

I still think the version I proposed would be a far cleaner tell.
 
#22
But there was no Promised Land. Shinra might have thought the Jenova Project would lead them to it, but it was like the quest for El Dorado. Also, my statement that Hojo was a crap scientist doesn't imply the others were better. They were all like Nazi scientists in the sense that their willingness to do unethical things compromised their science from the very start. My point was that Hojo didn't need a good scientific reason to take Zack as a test subject. Zack and Cloud had to be eliminated because they knew too much; eliminating their minds was just as good as eliminating them altogether, and Hojo was happy to take any victims he could get for his experimental purposes. He is so exactly like Dr Mengele (about whom I have been reading a lot recently) that it must have been done on purpose.

Also, I always rather assumed that the SOLDIERs received Jenova cells that were dead or denatured in some way, while the "experiments" received live Jenova cells.

Are we suppose to assume that Red XIII also received Jenova cells, given that he has a tattoo?
 

Roger

Gentleman Adventurer
AKA
Minato
#23
But there was no Promised Land. Shinra might have thought the Jenova Project would lead them to it, but it was like the quest for El Dorado. Also, my statement that Hojo was a crap scientist doesn't imply the others were better. They were all like Nazi scientists in the sense that their willingness to do unethical things compromised their science from the very start. My point was that Hojo didn't need a good scientific reason to take Zack as a test subject. Zack and Cloud had to be eliminated because they knew too much; eliminating their minds was just as good as eliminating them altogether, and Hojo was happy to take any victims he could get for his experimental purposes. He is so exactly like Dr Mengele (about whom I have been reading a lot recently) that it must have been done on purpose.

Also, I always rather assumed that the SOLDIERs received Jenova cells that were dead or denatured in some way, while the "experiments" received live Jenova cells.

Are we suppose to assume that Red XIII also received Jenova cells, given that he has a tattoo?
Saying that Lucretia has more science in her pinky and that all the accomplishments were made under Gast kinda does. Gast is the one that made the mistakes concerning Jenova and left shortly thereafter. Stable, normal SOLDIERs with Jenova inside them like Zack based on what happened with Sephiroth are all Hojo's work. Hojo heard what happened to Sephiroth and came to the conclusion that he was effected by an instinct to reunite with Jenova that could be replicated so as to retrieve the head he cut off, he was right, more or less. He encountered Cloud in Costa Del Sol and was the only one that could see what was actually motivating Cloud. Hojo's evil and immoral, but he's not just hiding stupidity and sadism behind science.
 

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
AKA
TresDias
#24
The Jenova Project was intended to create an entity that would lead them to the Promised Land (which Shinra invisioned to be Mako central) Hojo delivered success with his personal experiments where all his collaborations with Gast and Lucretia were utter failures.
The experiment involving Sephiroth was a collaboration with Lucrecia. By definition and necessity. =P

And to be fair, until the Compilation came along, it was a collaboration with Gast as well.

And that just makes the scene even more confounding.
Zack had already been subject to the SOLDIER-making process successfully.
Why would Hojo and Shinra after having made many SOLDIERS successfully suddenly get the idea to create a "Sephiroth copy" or alternatively testing the reunion theory by basically redoing the very thing they'd been doing all along - a method fundamentally different from how Sephiroth was made in the first place, or a theory that had been tested over and over again with every SOLDIER they ever made?

Again, this just damages the writing.
To be perfectly honest, I feel that it strengthens the writing. Hojo is making use of findings from past research to inform a new hypothesis geared toward a different objective.

Zack's place in the whole thing remains reasonable to question*, but I still think his place in the experiment is largely for the benefit of the player understanding the finer details of what happened to Cloud. And probably also to provide a simple reason for him to still be alive years later.

* (it could just simply be that Hojo thought giving him a double dose of the SOLDIER process may render him vegetative as well, and was curious to try it)

hian said:
In a version where reunion can be done simply by a normal SOLDIER-making process on mentally weak people, it seems to me that there must have been a slew of early test experiments from when the SOLDIER method was originally being devised that would also be called to reunion - unless we're supposed to believe that the first SOLDIERs were a success from the get go, and Shinra could just tell every time whether they were dealing with an appropriate candidate or not.
Why would the early (failed) test subjects from fine-tuning the SOLDIER procedure decades earlier still be around? It's far more likely they would have died as a result of the procedure or been executed to cover up that things went wrong.

hian said:
I still think the version I proposed would be a far cleaner tell.
Even if it would be, "cleaner" doesn't fit anything about FFVII -- neither in design nor construction. The sensibilities and aesthetics of locales (taken in whole or even individually), the characters, the worldviews of the setting, the storytelling itself; they're all hodgepodge and discordant.
 

hleV

Pro Adventurer
#25
Hojo may have wanted to test it on Zack because supposedly he was in a bad state (unconscious and/or badly injured). However, it does seem a little out place that every SOLDIER has been injected with Jenova cells, rather than only the Jenova Reunion test subjects (and Sephiroth). Only Mako is emphasized to provide those monsterification, super strength and whatnot effects while Jenova cells are... just there, for some reason.
 
Top Bottom