The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

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Pro Adventurer
The Girl With A Strong Opinion
We should. :monster: And I'm ready to give you a ride any time you say the word, chica.

OT: I have nothing on-topic to add other than that I'm fixing the formatting errors as we speak.
Hey, Hawkeye how about you be my top evil henchman. :neo:

I'll make cookies.

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
Formatting errors all fixed. :monster:

At least as far as I know. Shademp sent me a laundry list of minor-to-major ones up through "A puppet who can see the strings ..." that kept me busy for about an hour. But I know now that at least those first four sections are solid.

Hopefully there's nothing more to address.
Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves

I can't believe you found people to actually format it :monster:
mad props to whoever they were

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
Well, no, I did the formatting. After publishing it yesterday, though, some folks who have read through have been kind enough to tell me where I made some mistakes. :monster:


Pro Adventurer
Damn that was long O_O

I've finished like half of it right now and I'm amazed how comprehensive it is.

And Tres, I'm flattered with the inclusion of some of my posts, thanks for that! :D


unsavory tart
I skimmed most of it, and while I haven't seen all of it, damn Tres, you are living up to being the kingpin of Cloti- or whatever they call you these days.

You even included some of the things I liked, on how Cloud and Aerith do have a special relationship and how it did have romantic attraction in it- thus refusing to undermine their relationship but showing how it does not intrude on CloudxTifa. And challenging the omgTifaisaBitch theories that pop up anytime people feel the need to discredit CxT. A healthy use of sarcasm while shitting on stupid theories like omghetouchedher! while not discrediting things like the Tactics cameos is always appreciated.

All in all, lovely.


Oh yeah, I like all the times you used my quotes too. That was my favorite part. :')
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All right, I just started reading the new LTD analysis, and I have to say, I love the "Love Triangles are gay" and 'Abandon hope, all ye who enter here" quotes. They ring so true.


Pro Adventurer
Orah, Iju

*fangirl cloti shriek*

Squall/Hawkeye you SLY DOG brilliant little guy! *noogies* im gonna read through every single luscious, proof-filled, cloud x tifa goodness and heck I'M GONNA ENJOY IT! i know it because i read through your 62 page version twice and prayed to God above for you to make another one



*ahem* what was that?

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embraces her dreams
Monik XIII
I haven't finished reading it yet... If it's tiring to read it, I can't imagine how tiring it was to write it... I admire you for your dedication and patience!
I've now read the entire thing. I'll admit I skimmed some parts, but only things like Japanese text, sources I've seen before(including Ultimania passages, in-game text, etc.), Claims I've read before, etc. I learned nothing new in regards to the love triangle, but I still learned new things, such as the fact that Steiner has apparently defeated Beatrix before, Vaan and Penelo were already in a relationship in FFXII, and the fact that Tifa and Aerith apparently got bikini outfits in Airborne Brigade(which they should totally include in a future game btw). I also learned stuff about games I've never played before, such as Chrono Trigger, Chrono Cross, Dragon Quest V, and Fortune Street Special.

Goodbye Charlie

Rising Chest-Bank Protestor
"I do believe this, though: You won’t find someone with no opinion on the LTD actually discussing the matter at length. Not only because it takes a vested interest in the first place, but because it’s impossible.

Anyone analyzing data and drawing conclusions from it, even if they began as neutral, no longer is by the end of the process. This is as true of researchers making employ of the scientific method as it is of scholars conducting media analysis."

Well I declare myself totally neutral, which leaves me to demand a Love Triangle Debate Debate or a LTDD as I call it. I believe I am neutral or a "newt". I will create shambolic evidence and misquote Mako till I'm blue/pink in the face.

To be honest I think there's some truth in this - particularly the second paragraph. I find my like for Tifa and Aeris is balanced FROM the debate having been forced to analyse their good and bad sides. People who say why debate, to some degree, its about reinforcing or challenging what you think than the misguided consideration you'll change others.
still working on it.
really appreciate the thoroughness and then of course what all had to go into that.
i'm learning stuff too


Pro Adventurer
Orah, Iju

yeah really. thanks a ton bro. man im so happy right now. i knew i was in for a good one and so i literally popped some popcorn and ate it whilst happily reading the analysis, no joke. almost done with the "puppet" thing and i must say, some new stuff i never figgered. like how the parents of denzel and all that, plus TCAAR (ok that may be confusing, "the children are all right") is GROOOOOOOOOOUND BREAKING proof. i mean - WOW. cloud readily talking about family in public, and gladly supporting a new budding couple (and family) and in a way, leading them on with help, i mean THIS IS IT. S/E HAS OFFICIALLY SAID CLOUDXTIFA IS CANON. i mean its so near to the truth. that must be one of my favorite - if not one of my favorite - solid, nobody-can-say-a-dang-thing-otherwise-about-it- proofs in all of the cloti universe.

and you know the thing? we dont even need to get into that. i ordered the VII collection set from amazon and i brushed pass this review:


I just saw this DVD today and wow it was one of the best CGI animation movie I have seen in a while...with great graphics and a pretty good story line.

I was never much into the Final Fantasy RPG games but heard that it is a popular series. This movie kinda got me into doing research on all the characters from the

It wasnt just the A+ graphics that made to movie great but the characters development and story line, which was better than your average animation. I mean Final Fantasy The Spirits Within (same company?) had great CGI animation but was such a snore fest.

There were some reviewers that gave this movie a one star stating that it had no plot...these people have to keep in mind that this is a continuation of the story 2 years after the game's ending.

I think the writers made the right approach in not explaining about all the characters in detail, which would make the movie alot longer and probably a little boring. They made both the main guy and girl characters interesting,and I'm pretty sure there are more back stories behind the quieter/non-action scenes between the two. But if you want to know more about them and the other characters, just do an Internet search like I did or look at the console game cut scenes themselves on the DVD extra sections.

This movie is added to my favorite list of animated movies next to such titles as The Incredibles, Ghost in the Shell, Princess Mononoke, and Appleseed.

as you can see he knows next to 1% about the game and yet he briefly noted the relationship of "the main guy and girl". it had absolutely nothing to do with how good the movie is, and still he felt he should have noted it. not only that, he used strong, earnest language to support his idea (he's "pretty sure").

just a review, just a random person who doesnt even know im quoting him this second, but still. im sure if he saw both of your articles he'd snap his fingers and go "By golly I was right!"

(was trying to find a way to approach this, and thought it'd be cool if i put it here.)

just a few things to note (but mind you ive only seen a tad bit so far!). the video similarity of the highwind scene, i actually burst out laughing. because i had actually had come to know of this scene just within last week, probably 3 days ago. (it was....rather awkward how i found it. i was searching up "ltd debate" on scroogle and...erm...this came up. >.< {}) anyway someone noted the scene and i searched it up and found that some of the lines the guy says seemed just like tifa's ("As long as you're by my side....."). then you go and say its supposed to be like that :D you old silly :lol:

also i would i have liked it if in your introduction to make a firm note of the ltd not an important view of the entirety of the game, despite its irony of it being one of (if not the) most heated debates in global history. i have never thought this at all, not even in the least, but in such an article, i feel it should be noted so there isnt any confusion on the ltd in general.

besides, going 100% great!

keep it up, and hope you have more to write later on!

(wow i so didnt intend it to be long like this my apologies.)

*dives back in Dilly Dally Shilly Shally (cool title btw!) with heated eagerness*
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Sonique, Quexinos, Pinkie Pie, Derpy Hooves
Can we by chance let Vendel back into the LTD thread? I know he wants to discuss some of this and I just kinda yelled at him and now I feel bad :(

It might get some actual discussion going besides "wow thanks Tres"...

not that wow thanks Tres isn't totally awesome but :awesome:
I don't think a member who was used as the token "rabid" Cloti in order to make some ppl look like good, neutral seekers of truth would like to come back.

Good write up though.


Pro Adventurer
Hey I thought of something to ask, I may have missed this in the article but how much is Sakaguchi's involvement? Some are dubious of the Compilation's validation of Cloti as Sakaguchi isn't involved anymore and he's somewhat a key figure. What do you guys think of this?


Factiō Rēpūblicāna dēlenda est.
The Man, V
Vendel was banned from the LTD for the same reason he was banned from the politics section (a section where his banning certainly does not make us look unbiased): a lengthy and consistent history of flaming and trolling that easily dwarfs that of every other member on the forum with the sole exception of Scott Laird, who is unlikely ever to be unbanned. Vendel has the unique distinction of having incurred more infractions here than any other member in the history of this forum, and he is incredibly lucky that he was not permanently banned from the entire forum. Staff are unanimously agreed that his next offence will earn him a permaban.

And yes, he has repeatedly asked to be unbanned from the LTD. Staff are discussing it, but have yet to come to a consensus about what to do.

This is horrendously off-topic, which is something the rules of this thread explicitly prohibit, so if you have any further moderation-related discussion, take it to Feedback.

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
Hey I thought of something to ask, I may have missed this in the article but how much is Sakaguchi's involvement? Some are dubious of the Compilation's validation of Cloti as Sakaguchi isn't involved anymore and he's somewhat a key figure. What do you guys think of this?
Sakaguchi's involvement was minimal. He came up with the Lifestream, but that's pretty much it. His ideas about Detective Joe were scrapped early on by Kitase, Nomura and Nojima, who came up with all the character ideas we know and love. The game was even going to be set in New York City in 1999 at one point (the New York idea later being used for "Parasite Eve"). It's been said that the final game doesn't resemble his ideas at all:

In fact, Sakaguchi's priorities with FFVII were game design over story, by his own admission:

He's even admitted that his personal workload priorities around that time were on The Spirits Within, and that he left Kitase in charge of the work on both FFVII and FFVIII:

So, yeah.

It wouldn't be surprising if Amano knew more about Aerith, Tifa and Cloud during development, and -- as demonstrated -- he doesn't even play the games. The "Cloti isn't what Sakaguchi wanted" argument is, well, crap.

Should that be edited into the article?
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The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
Yeah, it's kind of heartbreaking for him. I think he really believed it would resonate with people -- and it did for some. Hell, I love the movie. But, yeah, it's a damn shame.


Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
Tim, Ryu
The problem with The Spirits Within was that it was FINAL FANTASY The Spirits Within, rather than The Spirits Within, a Final Fantasy Movie.

It was branded wrongly and led to terrible expectations and fan backlash. It's a totally great film on its own merits.

The Twilight Mexican

Ex-SeeD-ingly good
I was in a translating mood today, so I translated pg. 565 of the Ultimania Omega. It's also related to the question Danseru-kun asked about the other day:

Before the PlayStation version was made, FFVII was intended for other platforms!?
―With 3D as the premise, was it planned to be put on the market for the PlayStation from the project's starting stage?

Kitase: No ... How do I put this? At the starting point, it was assumed it would be released for other hardware. Around that time, it was said that the Disk Drive would be coming out, and we tried to make it foe that. At an exhibition for new projects, we presented a demo clip we had worked on for about the previous month. The clip featured Cloud's party of 3 battling a monster on the map used for the scene in which you press the switch to blow up the no.1 mako reactor. However, the Disk Drive was just a glimmer in the mind's eye at that point, though we worked with equipment that was assumed would go into it.

Naora: Wasn't there a plan for one other piece of hardware before that?

Kitase: That's right; after FFVI's development was finished, there was a plan for another piece of hardware intended for FFVII, and it was even started. We had a project meeting and character ideas were proposed, but the team was temporarily dissolved and reset to help with Chrono Trigger. After Chrono Trigger was finished, the team reformed for the Disk Drive version I just talked about, and then, just before a new projects exhibition, there came a change of policy and the PlayStation was finally proposed.

Nomura: Even though I had participated in the project before the reset for Chrono Trigger, some of the ideas I proposed at that time still ended up in the PlayStation version of FFVII. On the other hand, a character I had proposed was not used, but actually appeared in FFVIII.

―Who is this?

Nomura: Edea. At first, I thought FFVII was going to be the story of a battle against a sorceress. However, development soon shifted when Sakaguchi-san brought out a mako city plot, and the sorceress story was dropped.

Kitase: That was the initial plot Sakaguchi-san made during early development, wasn't it?

Nomura: The story that started with New York in the very first plot became the story of a mako city.

Kitase: Although there wasn't yet a name for Midgar, the setting of a mako city with a skyscraper illuminated by searchlights had been introduced. While it changed considerably, Sakaguchi-san's initial plot and also his theme of planet life became the foundation.

Nojima: Wasn't materia also Sakaguchi-san's idea?

Kitase: Yeah. It was called the "Sphere System" at that time, if I remember correctly. However, Sakaguchi-san said he wanted it to have a bit more nuance than that, so he decided on the materia name.

Nomura: The character illustrations I drew in the beginning based on Sakaguchi-san's initial plot are still around.

Kitase: Cloud hadn't come to be at that time yet, had he?

Nomura: Although Cloud hadn't yet taken form, there was a protagonist who became the prototype for him.

Kitase: Wasn't he a train robber?

Nomura: No, he blew up something. There was also a detective. I remember drawing the protagonist's accomplice, "Nicholas of the Needle," after that.

Naora: Ah, I remember that name.

Kitase: Then Nicholas became Barret.

Nomura: No, there probably wasn't a Barret yet at that time. However, the details were the protagonist and Nicholas of the Needle became a team, blew something up and were pursued by a detective ... I think.

Japanese text:
北瀬 いや……これは言ってもいいのかな?じつは、スタート時点ではほかのハードでの発売を想定していました。当時、そのハードにディスクドライブが出ると言われていて、それ用に作ろうとしていたんですよ。実際に、新作展示会で流すためのデモ映像を、開催の1ヵ月くらい前まで作ってました。壱番魔晄炉の爆破スイッチを押すシーンに使われているマップで、クラウドたち3人とモンスターが戦っている映像でしたね。ただ、当時はそのディスクドライブは影も形もなったので、それを想定した機材で作っていたんですけど。
直良 その前にも、もうひとつ別のハードで企画があったじあんないですか。
北瀬 そうそう、一応『FFVI』の開発が終わったあとに、もうひとつ別のハード向けの『FFVII』の企画も立ち上がっていもしたね。企画会議をしたり、キャラクターのアイデア出しをしていたんですが、『クロノ・トリガー』のヘルプのためにいったんチームを解散してリセットしたんですよ。『クロノ・トリガー』が終わってから、先ほど言ったディスクドライブ版のためにチームを再結成したあと、さらに新作展示会の直前に方針転換があって、最終的にPSで出すことになったんです。
野村 僕は『クロノ・トリガー』でリセットされる前のころから企画に参加していたんですけど、そのときに出したアイデアがそのままPS版の『FFVII』に残っていたりしますよ。逆に、そこで使われなかったキャラクターが、じつは『FFVIII』に出てたりまする。
野村 イデアです。最初、『FFVII』は魔女との戦いの話にしようと考えてたんですよ。でも、開発が1回仕切り直になって、坂口さんのほうから魔晄都市出てくるプロットがきたので、魔女の話はやめちゃったんです。
北瀬 開発のはじめのころには、坂口さんの作った初期プロットがありましたね。
野村 一番最初のプロットはニューヨークから話がはじまっていて、そのつぎにきたプロットが魔晄都市の話だった。
北瀬 ミッドガルという名前はまだなかったんですけど、サーチライトで照らされている摩天楼みたいな感じで、魔晄都市の設定が出てきていましたね。最終的にはかなり変更されてますが、星の命というテーマの部分も、坂口さんの初期プロットがベースになってます。
野島 マテリアも坂口さんのアイデアでしょ?
北瀬 そう。マテリアは、たしか当時は「スフィアシステム」って呼んでいたんですよ。だけど、坂口さんがもう少しハッキリした語感にしたいと言って、マテリアという名前に決まったんです。
野村 坂口さんの初期プロットをもとにして最初に描いたキャラクターのイラストは、いまだに残ってますよ。
北瀬 そのころは、まだクラウドはいなかったよね?
野村 クラウドはいなかったけど、その原型になった主人公はいました。
北瀬 列車強盗じゃなかったっけ?
野村 いや、何かを爆破するっていう設定だったような。ほかにも刑事がいた。それから、主人公の相棒で「針のニコラス」というキャラクターを描いた記憶がある。
直良 あ、その名前は覚えてる。
北瀬 じゃあ、そのニコラスがバレットなんだ。
野村 いや、たぶんそのころはまだバレットはいなかった。しかし、主人公と針のニコラスがコンボを組んでいて、何かを爆破して刑事に追いかけるれるっていうような内容だった……気がします。
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