Squall Leonhart said:
It is valid, but not for the reason you mentioned.
You're right, of course. They have inherent issues that aren't going to go away over night. They both suck at communicating what's on their mind and they both try to shoulder everything on their own.
Wait... you dismiss my reasons as invalid, but then admit Cloud and Tifa’s inherent problems are a result of their communication problems, which is something I have
consistently cited as an inherent problem between Cloud and Tifa. Why would you dismiss my reasons as invalid when we have both cited communication problems as something inherently wrong in Cloud and Tifa’s relationship?
If you agree Cloud and Tifa have inherent problems that are not a result of extenuating circumstances such as Sephiroth/Geostigma, then it is entirely valid to not view Cloud and Tifa as a romantic couple due to their inherent problems.
Squall Leonhart said:
High Affection Highwind scene?
Cloud and Tifa never thought that these feelings would ever lead to a romantic relationship because they expressed them on a night they thought would be their last.
So, what evidence do Cloti's have that words turned into reality? The living situation and family are not a result of Cloud and Tifa's romantic feelings. So, what are the unambiguous examples of romantic behavior between Cloud and Tifa? What evidence tells us they became an actual couple after the HA Highwind scene?
I have two quotes that make it entirely valid to *NOT* view Cloud and Tifa as boyfriend/girlfriend after the HA Highwind scene:
Nojima: "Episode Tifa" [Case of Tifa] - first off, there's the premise that things won't go well between Tifa and Cloud, and that even without Geostigma or Sephiroth this might be the same. I don't really intend to go about my views on love or marriage or family (laughs). After ACC, I guess Denzel and Marlene could help them work it out. Maybe things would have gone well with Aerith, but I think there is a great burden from Aerith. Oh, I just remembered. I wanted to write Cloud as a person, seen through Tifa's eyes. But he really isn't the type to open up (laughs)." ~Nojima interview about On the Way to a Smile at the Square-Enix website
Nomura: For example, I was frequently asked if there had been romantic relationship between Tifa and Cloud for two years, after FF7 ended, but I don't have any clue. ~Nomura interview, Dorimaga magazine, cited at FlareGamer
If Nomura doesn't know if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship, and if Nojima says things,
"didn't go well" between Cloud and Tifa after the HA Highwind scene, then why must we automatically assume that these mutual feelings (that were stated during an evening that was thought to be their last) automatically turned into a romantic relationship?
You are saying it is required that Cloud and Tifa enter into a relationship after the HA Highwind scene. Nojima and Nomura disagree with you.
Squall Leonhart said:
To be accurate, there isn't a chart saying that precise thing ("in a romantic relationship") about Tidus and Yuna either, nor Locke and Celes, Zidane and Dagger, Squall and Rinoa, etc. The charts are only using words describing their significance to one another ("favors" or "important person"), and those are words that have been used to describe Cloud and Tifa's significance to one another as well.
You have valid points to make, Blank, but the chart thing really, really isn't one of them. I'm telling you, that's one you should let go.
SE had the perfect opportunity to describe Cloud and Tifa romantically in the *Advent Children* relationship chart (ie: the chart that came AFTER the HA Highwind scene). But because the problems between Cloud and Tifa are inherent (see Nojima quote), and because their relationship is ambiguous (see Nomura quote), it makes sense why Cloud and Tifa are *NOT* listed in the same way as other FF couples are in the relationship charts.
SE did not list Cloud and Tifa romantically in the Advent Children relationship chart because part of the premise of CoT is how poorly Cloud and Tifa got along due to inherent problems such as their communication issues. CoT came *BEFORE* AC, and because of the problems we see between Cloud and Tifa in CoT, the AC relationship chart doesn't list them as anything more than, "childhood friends". Makes sense to me.
Now, Cloti's love to say all the FF couples have a moment where they express mutual feelings and that SE describes all the couples similarly. The biggest parallel has been between Cloud x Tifa and Tidus x Yuna.
FFX UO pg. 60:
"At the mysterious spring that glitters like the stars, the two kiss and embrace many times, confirming their feelings for one another."
FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition; story summary:
“Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other together.”
FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; main body of FFVII’s story summary:
“And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, together they disclose their feelings for each other.”*
FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198; story summary:
“When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and…….”
Now, although Cloud and Tifa confirm feelings similarly to Tidus x Yuna in the HA Highwind scene, the Tidus x Yuna scene is *NOT* optional, whereas the HA Highwind scene *IS* optional.
But even if you believe the HA Highwind scene is canon, and therefore equal to what happens between Tidus x Yuna, Yuna goes on to tell Tidus she loves him and they have a romantic embrace *AFTER* confirming their feelings to one another. Cloud and Tifa have no such scene after they confirm their feelings. In-fact, the first time Cloud and Tifa are alone after the HA Highwind scene is when Cloud expresses a desire to find Tifa’s love rival, Aerith. Tidus x Yuna act romantically after they confirm their feelings, Cloud and Tifa do not.
In other words, Tidus x Yuna have an undeniable romantic moment after they confirm their feelings. Cloud x Tifa do not.
In-fact, after Cloud and Tifa confirm their feelings, we find out that the problems between Cloud and Tifa are inherent (see Nojima quote), and that their relationship is ambiguous (see Nomura quote). The Advent Children relationship chart matches what Nojima and Nomura have both stated in regards to Cloud and Tifa. Why would the AC relationship chart list Cloud and Tifa romantically when CoT tells us what happened after the HA Highwind scene and prior to AC (ie: things not going well between them)?
The reason the AC relationship chart doesn't describe Cloud and Tifa romantically is because of things not going well between them in CoT.
On the other hand, Tidus and Yuna are listed romantically in the relationship charts because they are definitively confirmed as a couple when Yuna tells Tidus she loves him and they share a romantic embrace. The same can’t be said for Cloud and Tifa because the first scene between Cloud and Tifa after the HA Highwind scene is when Cloud expresses a desire to find Tifa’s love rival, Aerith. Maybe Cloud’s belief that he can find Aerith prevents him from officially dating Tifa? We *DO* know that Tifa later states that she wasn’t just mad about Cloud dragging around the past, but that the reason might perhaps be related to Aerith. Obviously Cloud’s feelings for Aerith continue to complicate his relationship with Tifa, something Tifa openly admits. This sort of issue was not present in Tidus and Yuna's relationship.
Bottom line: Cloud didn’t think he was going to live long enough for a relationship to develop when he confirmed his feelings to Tifa. He also didn’t think he had the possibility to find Aerith when he confirmed his feelings to Tifa. Plus, we have both Nomura and Nojima telling us that it is entirely valid to *NOT* view Cloud and Tifa as being a romantic couple. And you’ve yet to provide anything that is definitively romantic between Cloud and Tifa after the HA Highwind scene. Therefore, it is not required that confirming feelings in the HA Highwind scene led to a romantic relationship between Cloud and Tifa.
Now, you DO list some examples that you believe prove Cloud and Tifa became a couple after the HA Highwind scene. I address your examples later in my post. But I will point out that every single one of your examples is ambiguous and not even close to what happens between Tidus x Yuna.
Squall Leonhart said:
This is another one.
"50% of marriages end in divorce" doesn't nullify that there was a romantic relationship there to begin with. =P Trust the guy who's about to be divorced on this one.
Again, you have valid points to make, but you need to let stuff like this go when (most of) the people you're discussing the topic with are only arguing that there is a relationship there, not that it is without possibility it could fail.
Really? What behavior after the HA Highwind scene suggests Cloud and Tifa entered into a romantic relationship and acted like a couple? I must have missed when Cloud asked Tifa to be his girlfriend. I must have also missed when Cloud and Tifa kissed and told each other they loved one another.
Squall Leonhart said:
I honestly wouldn't.
As the audience, we're privy to information Tifa wasn't. And Tifa herself is insecure, codependent and self-defeating.
What evidence are we privy to that would undermine Tifa’s feelings?
And so what if Tifa is insecure, codependent, and self-defeating? I’d say Cloud’s behavior in CoT gives Tifa every reason in the world to question if he loves her.
Squall Leonhart said:
It really is, though. I get your point that Barret and Tifa have lived together/traveled together in the past and all, but there's really nothing presented here about what their current living arrangements are like.
Why are Barret and Tifa the only two people that travel together in DC? History suggests it is because they live together.
Squall Leonhart said:
The quote from Barret's DC Complete Guide profile could also suggest he's not living at Seventh Heaven, couldn't it? Since Cloud and Tifa's profiles don't mention him, and his only says that he's living with Marlene?
The last place we know Marlene resides is Seventh Heaven. So unless you have evidence that Marlene left Seventh Heaven, it only makes sense that Barret returned to living with Marlene at Seventh Heaven in DoC.
Squall Leonhart said:
So, what do we take from that? Did he take her on the road? Did he get a new place in Edge, and she now lives with him there? Or are they all actually living together at Seventh Heaven and the profile is just worded weirdly?
Again – the last place we see Marlene living is Seventh Heaven. Unless you have evidence that Marlene left Seventh Heaven, it is only logical to assume Barret went back to Seventh Heaven to live with Marlene, Cloud, and Tifa.
Barret helped re-build Seventh Heaven, started a business with Cloud and Tifa, plus his trip was never meant to be permanent. All of this, in conjunction with the fact that there is no evidence Marlene leaves Seventh Heaven, means it is only logical to believe Barret went back to living with Cloud, Tifa, and Marlene at Seventh Heaven.
Squall Leonhart said:
Completely unclear. That's why DC is flimsy evidence. It presents us with a bunch of equally plausible possibilities and no measure by which to determine the most likely one. Using it as evidence is really like using the battle in Advent Children as evidence.
All the alternatives you’ve suggested have no historical precedence.
Barret, Tifa, and Marlene have lived together before. If there is no evidence that Marlene left Seventh Heaven, it is only logical to assume Barret went back to living with Marlene at Seventh Heaven. Besides – Barret left the Forgotten City with Cloud and Tifa, Barret talked about forming a family with Cloud and Tifa, Barret rebuilt Seventh Heaven with Cloud and Tifa, Barret started a business with Cloud and Tifa, and Barret lived with Tifa in Seventh Heaven at the start of FFVII.
There is nothing to support that Barret got a new home or took Marlene away from Seventh Heaven in DoC. That is pure speculation. I'm looking at what we have been told in CoT and AC, which is that Barret started a family with Cloud and Tifa, rebuilt Seventh Heaven with Cloud and Tifa, *AND* started a business with Cloud and Tifa. Seventh Heaven is the most logical place for Barret to return to. Fact is, there is nothing that suggests Marlene left Seventh Heaven. So, it is only logical to conclude Barret goes back to living with Marlene at Seventh Heaven. And what even further confirms this is that we see Barret and Tifa traveling together, which also suggests they left from the same spot (ie: Seventh Heaven).
Funny how you say my evidence is “flimsy,” yet the evidence to support your scenarios are nonexistent.
Squall Leonhart said:
Again, nothing about the use of "I" implies excluding Tifa. Why do you keep acting like it would?
And more importantly, you've already been told that the Ultimania Omega establishes that they were having a conversation (he was talking directly to her; she wasn't butting into a private epiphany) and that they were actually talking about how they would see their loved ones again when they died. They were finding comfort in the likelihood of their imminent deaths.
It is irrelevant if Cloud was talking directly to Tifa. Who cares?
Cloud told Tifa directly that HE and HE alone wanted to go find Aerith in the Promised Land. Happy?
Cloud visited Aerith’s Church without telling Tifa, and he is shown expressing a desire to find the Promised Land in Final Fantasy Tactics (a game Tifa is not in). You can say we shouldn’t look to FFT as commentary on FFVII, but I’d say it gives us great insight into what SE thinks. And clearly SE views this as a solo quest for Cloud.
Anyway – Cloud visits Aerith’s Church without telling or inviting Tifa. So, to me, it is clear that when it comes to Aerith, Cloud doesn’t want Tifa’s presence. Why would he? Aerith and Tifa are, afterall, love rivals in relation to Cloud.
Plus, after Tifa tells Cloud to bring her the next time he visits Aerith's Church, he doesn't. In-fact, he never responds to Tifa's request. He only smiles. And we then come to find out that Cloud actually started residing at Aerith's Church (even after Tifa asked him to take her the next time he went). This scenario is similar to Cloud's lack of response when Tifa includes herself in Cloud's desire to find the Promised Land.
Bottom line is, Cloud didn’t want Tifa's presence when he visited Aerith’s Church, and he stated directly that HE and HE alone wanted to find Aerith in the Promsied Land.
We will simply have to agree to disagree. Luckily, Nomura agrees that fans are free to interpret things differently.
Nomura: “AC is a piece of work made by Japanese people. In Hollywood movies, I think there is a tendency where the meaning of all the scenes have to be expressed clearly but, this isn’t something like that. With our work, the viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy it. The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie such as the angel statue that makes an appearance many times. But, even if someone who has watched it interprets it differently, then that is just another answer. I guess “comparing answers” with friends is one of the ways you can enjoy the movie. I think AC is a movie that makes those who have watched it, want to talk about it with others.” ~FFVII AC Prologue Book
Squall Leonhart said:
Ugh. No. Do not make that argument. It is fundamentally flawed and has been proven so countless times. SE's games have translation errors, even in really good translations.
Do I need to pull out the debacle with FFXII's English translation again? The one suggesting that it took place hundreds of years after FFTactics when the Ultimania Omega -- which came out after the game's English release, by the way -- specifies that it took place hundreds of years before?
Do not look to English translations, official or otherwise, to clarify things. That's not how it works.
Just because *YOU* think we shouldn’t look to English translations to clarify things doesn’t mean you are correct. Obviously English translations aren’t the *ONLY* thing we should consider when trying to clarity what SE means, but they shouldn’t be completely ignored or dismissed, either.
What you have failed to recognize is that SE translated this line to English on *TWO* occasions -- once in FFVII, and once in Reminiscence. SE changed the line in Reminiscence from
“meet” to
“find,” but they didn’t change “I” to “WE”. If SE wanted to change Cloud’s line from
“I” to
“WE”, they would have done so in Reminiscence. But they didn’t.
Furthermore, FFXIII is *ONE* example of an error in translation. Does that mean
*ALL* translations by SE are wrong? Please. Answer this question.
Anyway --
Given that SE translated, "I think I can meet/find her... there" *TWICE* - once in FFVII, and once in Reminiscence; and changed the translation of "MEET" to "FIND", indicates SE already made all the changes they wanted to make to the translation. If SE wanted to change "I" to "WE" in that sentence, they would have done so in Reminiscence just like they did by changing the words "MEET" to "FIND", but guess what? They didn't. Therefore, the translation is exactly how SE wants it.
Squall Leonhart said:
I'm sure you're making connections between things that aren't related. Cloud isn't looking for the Promised Land and a happy reunion in Episode:Tifa or Advent Children. He's looking for forgiveness before he croaks.
And, again, the conversation at the end of FFVII wasn't something excluding Tifa.
And in the process of finding forgiveness, Cloud also finds his Promised Land (ie: Aerith’s Church).
And, again, the conversation at the end of FFVII was Cloud TELLING Tifa that HE wants to find the Promised Land. He never includes Tifa in his desire to find Aerith.
Answer me this: why didn’t SE change Cloud’s line in Reminiscence from “I” to “WE”? You say the Japanese line isn’t clear, but the two English translations make it perfectly clear how to interpret the Japanese line.
I agree with you that translations can be wrong, which is why SE changed the word “MEET” to “FIND” in Reminiscence. But they didn’t change “I” to “WE”. If SE wanted to change “I” to “WE” because of a translation error, Reminiscence would have been the opportunity to do so, as evidenced by their change of "MEET" to "FIND". Unfortunately for you, SE did not change "I" to "WE" in Reminiscence.
Squall Leonhart said:
When he was ignoring
everyone's calls. And even then, "ignoring" is probably the wrong word for it. He just wasn't answering. He listened to all their voice mails right after they called.
Anyway, you've alluded to the missed calls screen on his phone, which doesn't really tell us anything other than that he misses a call from home about once a week.
Seriously, look at the dates:
http://imgur.com/5ZlKyDZ.png
http://imgur.com/Z3mofsp.png
What does that prove other than that Cloud missed 10 calls in
55 days from May 5th to June 29th? Even if we assume the third page that isn't shown to us on screen are all missed calls from 7th Heaven only, that still only presents 15 missed calls in 55 days.
That seems like a big deal to you? There's a week or more separating almost half of the calls!
That's pretty much normal for
anybody with a home life.
What we know: Cloud misses some calls while he's out, which isn't weird at all, and which we see happen while he's working in Reminiscence as well -- again, with people other than Tifa. Show us where it's implied Cloud didn't return those missed calls and you'll have something.
"Days after having that conversation, Cloud left. Tifa wondered if that smile he showed her was an illusion. After kissing the sleeping children on the face she went into Cloud’s office.*She brushed away the dust on the family photo they had taken and then tried calling him. After several rings the messaging service took over."*~CoT
This quote suggests that Tifa realizes Cloud's smile was an "illusion" because he wasn't answering her calls.
You also said,
“Show us where it’s implied Cloud didn’t return those missed calls and you’ll have something.”
OK. Here is where it is more than implied that Cloud doesn’t return those missed calls:
Tifa (on phone): Cloud, what a surprise. You never call. Is something wrong?
Tifa says Cloud never calls. Therefore, Cloud never returns Tifa’s calls. He ignores them. So...will you now admit that I have something?
Squall Leonhart said:
I still don't get how you don't see it -- the "Because I have you" stuff, "I'll remind you" stuff, the blushing. On what world is that not romantic banter?
And their "silly little everyday conversations" for that matter?
The “Because I have you” example:
Cloud saying, “Because I have you” sounds to me like Cloud is saying the exact same thing he said at the end of the HW scene in BOTH the LA and HA versions, which means it doesn't have to be romantic:
Tifa "......"
(Cloud stands.)
Cloud "We'd better go."
(She turns to him and makes a pleading gesture.)
Tifa "But, I still...!?"
(He turns to face her, shaking his head.)
Cloud "It's all right, Tifa. You said so yourself yesterday."
"At least we don't have to go on alone."
(A pause. Tifa nods)
Tifa "Yes... That's right!"
(He nods)
Cloud "Okay! Let's go!"*
Cloud and Tifa have already admitted that they will be able to get through anything now that they have each other. Cloud is simply restating what he already said in the Highwind scene, which can be viewed as either romantic or platonic given the fact that this conversation appears in both the LA and HA version.
The example of: “I’ll remind you” stuff is also not unequivocally romantic.
In addition...I personally have, “silly conversations” with my friends/family all the time.
You have yet to provide anything that definitively moves Cloud and Tifa into a romantic relationship after the HA Highwind scene. CoT is primarily based on the premise of how poorly Cloud and Tifa are getting along. Then, when AC/C and DOC happen, there is STILL zero romantic progression between Cloud and Tifa. What we have seen with our own eyes matches both Nojima and Nomura’s quotes.
On the contrary, after Tidus and Yuna express mutual feelings, Yuna tells Tidus she loves him and they share a romantic embrace. They have an undeniable example of acting like a couple after confirming mutual feelings. SE has never shown Cloud and Tifa in an undeniable scene of romance after confirming their feelings in the HA Highwind scene.
So, how can we be sure that these confirmed feelings turned into a romantic relationship? Nomura isn’t sure that these feelings led to a romantic relationship, Nojima says things didn’t “go well” between them after the HA Highwind scene, the AC (not FFVII) relationship chart doesn’t list them as anything more than “childhood friends”, Tifa doesn’t know if Cloud loves her; plus, when Cloud confirmed his feelings in the HA Highwind scene, a relationship never entered his mind because he thought that night would be his last, *AND* Cloud didn't have any idea of the possibility of re-uniting with Aerith when he confirmed his feelings to Tifa during the HA Highwind scene.
Squall Leonhart said:
To be fair to hito, you're being nitpicky here. "Constant" is assumed to mean something that doesn't change. That's generally how it's used, and how the Oxford English Dictionary defines it:
http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/us/definition/american_english/constant
A usage meaning "very often over a period of time" would be the rare exception that no one would ever expect since "without interruption" is implied by the very use of "constant."
No, I’m not being nitpicky. Cloud and Tifa *DO* have constant problems. They’ve had communication problems since we were first introduced to them at the start of FFVII. So although they have periods of good moments, they have consistently had communication problems that have been a constant source of problems in their relationship from the very *BEGINNING* of FFVII.
Squall Leonhart said:
Why do you think their sleeping arrangements are relevant when they were literally living in garbage?
I'm not assuming you don't have a valid point here. I just want you to explain to me why you think it's significant that a four-year-old little girl would sleep with the only adult female in the group when they're sleeping in filthy rubble surrounded by people who have lost hope and could be potentially dangerous.
It isn’t significant that a four-year-old little girl would sleep with the only adult female in the house. What is significant is where would the most likely place be that Cloud sleeps while Marlene slept with Tifa? The answer: the bed found in Cloud's room.
When Cloti's say that Cloud is never shown sleeping in the bed found in his room, or that it could just be a guest bed, I simply pose the question: wouldn’t the bed found in Cloud’s room be the most likely place he slept while Marlene slept with Tifa?
Cloti’s love to dismiss this bed as though it is a guest bed, or that SE added it in unintentionally. But my point is that it only makes sense that Cloud would sleep in the bed found in his room while Marlene slept with Tifa, which is probably why SE added a bed in Cloud's room.
The bottom line is: we never see Cloud and Tifa sleeping together. However, we are told Marlene slept with Tifa, and we are also shown that Cloud has a bed in his room. So, in my opinion, it is only logical to assume that Cloud and Tifa have, on multiple occasions, slept separately. And if Cloud and Tifa sleep separately, that is yet another reason (among many) to not view Cloud and Tifa as a romantic couple.
Squall Leonhart said:
Is it not safe to assume that the rest of the passage is talking about why that place is his Promised Land? Does that not make more sense than assuming that the two things are being mentioned together but have no relation one to another?
We know that a person's Promised Land is their personal supreme happiness. That the passage goes on to talk about all these things that are making Cloud very happy suggests the "Promised Land" connection is all these things that are making him happy, particularly since Cloud had been at the most miserable point in his life in this same physical location a short while earlier.
The passage says Cloud is not, “alone anymore” after being reunited with Aerith and Zack in Aerith’s Church. Therefore, Cloud felt alone prior to being reunited with Aerith and Zack. So, the place he was able to connect with the two people that made him feel alone is Aerith’s Church (ie: his Promised Land).
Squall Leonhart said:
How does that even possibly imply that Cloud will be interacting with them? Nomura's not even talking about that subject in the passage you quoted, and you left out the rest of the quote where he talks about how he wanted to film somewhere the sea could be seen beyond the horizon.
That was his stated reason for selecting that location. They didn't go out and plant those flowers there, nor select that location because of the flowers. It was just a happy coincidence and he commented on it.
Even if that had been the stated reason, that doesn't point to what you're claiming. And besides, didn't you say it was in the church that Cloud would be able to see them?
During the ending credits, Cloud is shown riding his motorcycle through numerous flower fields. Although Cloud is a delivery boy, he is shown riding his motorcycle through flower fields that are stated to represent Aerith:
Nomura said in the Reunion Files that,
“…we filmed the video for the ending credits in Hawaii. There are fields of flowers on both sides of the road, and the colors - yellow and white - are the same as the flowers in Aerith’s church.”
In addition, Nomura states,
“With Aerith, ‘flowers’ have been her image throughout the series.”
Some say that because this was shown during the credits it has no relevance, and we also have no idea if this occurred before or after what took place in Advent Children (I’d assume it occurred after because they decided to show this to viewers right after the film was over)
SE knows that this will be the last few minutes viewers see when watching the film, and that it will leave a long lasting impression with them. Given that Nomura specifically says flowers have been Aerith’s image throughout the entire series, and that the flowers Cloud is riding through are the same as those in Aerith’s Church, it is clear that Cloud is riding his motorcycle in an effort to connect with Aerith in a flower field.
Common sense suggests that this is SE’s way to provide obvious hints and clues towards Cloud x Aerith. SE knows this is a very impressionable video since it is the last moments viewers will see. And given the context of everything, Cloud appears to be searching for a way to connect with Aerith.
Luckily, SE specifically created AC to be an INTERPRETIVE piece of art.
Squall Leonhart said:
Why does this still get debated? It's outright said more than once in Episode:Tifa:
"Typically, Cloud was out most of the day for work. The hours after he got home at night were important to Denzel; they were time spent with his hero."
"He always made sure he had time at night for the kids."
It's absolutely beyond doubt that Cloud was home every night.
Thanks for the quotes. That's all I wanted.
But I will point out that the key word there is
"kids." Cloud was home every night or the kids.
For
the
kids.
Not necessarily for Tifa.
Cloud started to gain hope, show happiness, and spend more time at 7th heaven only AFTER he found Denzel. Once more, he only started to want to spend more time at 7th Heaven FOR the KIDS.
------------------------
Strangelove said:
Then Ryu and others can answer these questions.
So you agree that this family/living situation is not proof of Cloud and Tifa being boyfriend/girlfriend? That's really the entire point I've been trying to make this whole time, so I'm glad to know you agree.
Strangelove said:
Unless you're talking about charts again, Cloud and Tifa have been described in the same terms as Tidus and Yuna.
FFX UO pg. 60
——
At the mysterious spring that glitters like the stars, the two kiss and embrace many times, confirming their feelings for one another.
Japanese text:
星をのようにきらめく神秘の泉のなで、ふたりは、(互いの想い
を確かめ合うかのように幾度も抱擁し、唇を重ねた。
***
(FFVII 10th Anniversary Ultimania, pg. 118; pg. 120 in the Revised Edition; story summary)
残ったクラウドとティファは、(互いへの想い
を打ち明け、確かめ合う。
“Cloud and Tifa, who remain, reveal their feelings for each other together.”
(FF 20th Anniversary Ultimania File 2: Scenario, pg. 232; main body of FFVII’s story summary)
そして、ふたり、きりになったクラウドとティファは、残された最後の時間で(互いの想い
を打ち明け合う。
“And when Cloud and Tifa remain behind alone, in their final hours, together they disclose their feelings for each other.”
(FFVII Ultimania Omega, pg. 198; story summary)
大切な人の待つ場所へと仲間が散っていき、ふたりきりになたクラドとティファ。残された最後の時間でお(互いの想い
を打ち明け、そして……。
“When their companions disperse to the places where people important to them await, Cloud and Tifa are the only two to remain behind. They reveal their mutual feelings in their final hours, and…….”
I have never denied that Cloud x Tifa confirm feelings similarly to Tidus x Yuna. But there are some very important differences between the two couples:
1. The HA Highwind scene is optional, the mysterious springs scene is not. Some view this as a very important distinction.
2. Yuna goes on to tell Tidus she loves him and they have a romantic embrace. On the contrary, Cloud and Tifa have no such scene after the HA Highwind scene. In-fact, the first time Cloud and Tifa are alone after the HA Highwind scene is when Cloud expresses a desire to find Tifa’s love rival, Aerith.
Yuna and Tidus act romantically after confirming their feelings. Cloud and Tifa do not.
3. The problems between Cloud and Tifa are inherent (see Nojima quote), and their relationship is ambiguous (see Nomura quote). Nojima and Nomura do not make those statements about Tidus x Yuna.
4. Cloud and Tifa are not described romantically in the AC relationship chart because of things not going well between them in CoT. On the contrary, Tidus x Yuna *ARE* described romantically in the relationship charts.
Strangelove said:
Into battle. In a WRO truck.
You still haven't recognized the differences between Yuffie and Cid versus Barret and Tifa.
Anyway --
History (ie: the storyline of CoT) tells us that Barret and Tifa are living together in DC. Barret's trip was never meant to be permanent.
Unless you have proof of Marlene leaving Seventh Heaven, it is only logical to assume Barret goes back to living with Marlene at Seventh Heaven with Cloud and Tifa. And the reason Barret and Tifa are seen traveling together is because they left from the same spot (ie: Seventh Heaven -- ie: the place they both live).
Strangelove said:
You still based the assumption on silly reasoning. That hasn't changed.
It is your opinion that it is silly reasoning. If you look at the story of CoT, it is clear that Seventh Heaven is Barret's home. Barret leaves the Forgotten City with Cloud and Tifa, Barret talks about creating a family with Cloud and Tifa, Barret re-builds Seventh Heaven with Cloud and Tifa, Barret starts a business with Cloud and TIfa, and Barret says to,
"unite the family's strength" when he leaves Seventh Heaven. Then, we are told Barret goes back to living with Marlene. Marlene is last seen living at Seventh Heaven.
Therefore, the reason Barret and Tifa traveled together to the battle was because they are living together. My assumption was based on reading the story of CoT, recognizing that Barret's trip was never meant to be permanent, and using common sense (ie: people usually travel together because they begin at the same starting point, which is usually the place they live). Turns out my assumption wasn't a bad assumption because of the quote you provided. Thanks
Strangelove said:
I can see you're really invested in this opinion, but it still doesn't change the fact that a) Square said it was both Cloud and Tifa going, and b) nothing suggests that Cloud post-FFVII is actively searching for the Promised Land.
Wrong.
A) Square had Tifa say THEY would go find Aerith in the Promised Land. But Square also had Cloud say HE and HE alone would go find Aerith. Given that Cloud doesn't tell or invite Tifa to visit Aerith's Church, we know that when it comes to Aerith, he'd like to keep Tifa out of it.
Then, after Tifa tells Cloud to take her the next time he goes to Aerith's Church, he doesn't. In-fact, not only does Cloud not take Tifa with him after she tells him to, he actually starts *LIVING* in Aerith's Church:
Tifa and Marlene visit the Church where Cloud and Aerith first met. They become certain that Cloud has been living there in seclusion. ~page 109, Reunion Files
B) So what if there is no evidence of Cloud actively searching for the Promised Land after FFVII? We know Cloud finds it in AC/C, and it turns out to be Aerith's Church.
Strangelove said:
Maybe you aren't supposed to use Final Fantasy Tactics to interpret the story of Final Fantasy VII?
You are avoiding my point. Why would SE have Cloud express a desire to find the Promsied Land in a game that excludes Tifa *IF* it is a quest that involves both of them?
Strangelove said:
The Promised Land was an important element in FFVII's story. Not everything has to be about Aerith and Cloud's massive boner for her.
Never said it did.
Strangelove said:
See Tres' response again.
Cloud never responds to Tifa saying,
"Let's go meet her..."
But what we *DO* know is that Cloud states that *HE* wants to go find the Promised Land so he can find Aerith. He never includes Tifa in his statement.
Strangelove said:
First off, it's not the Japanese 'translation'. The Japanese version came first, there was nothing to translate from.
You know what I meant. But thanks for being snarky.
Strangelove said:
Secondly, just no. For what Tres says, and just because no. Some derivative work doesn't suddenly take precedent over the original.
Obviously English translations aren’t the *ONLY* thing we should consider when trying to clarity what SE means, but they shouldn’t be completely ignored or dismissed, either.
I agree with you that translations can be wrong. That is why SE changed the word “MEET” to “FIND” in Reminiscence. But they didn’t change “I” to “WE”. If SE wanted to change “I” to “WE” because of a translation error, Reminiscence would have been the opportunity to do so, as evidenced by their change of "MEET" to "FIND".
Strangelove said:
And Square already told people how to interpret the Japanese version: Cloud and Tifa going to see Aerith in the Promised Land.
Square had Cloud say that HE would go see Aerith in the Promised Land.
Square had Tifa say THEY would go see Aerith in the Promised Land.
But as evidenced by Cloud visiting Aerith's Church without telling or inviting Tifa, and as evidenced by SE having Cloud express a desire to find the Promised Land in a game that doesn't include Tifa (FFT), and as evidenced by Cloud not including Tifa in his statement about finding Aerith in the Promised Land, it is clear Tifa is not meant to go with Cloud to find Aerith in the Promised Land.
Strangelove said:
Tifa (on phone): Cloud, what a surprise. You never call. Is something wrong?
Tifa says Cloud never calls her. Therefore, Cloud never returns Tifa’s calls. He ignores them.
This statement by Tifa came directly after this:
"Days after having that conversation, Cloud left. Tifa wondered if that smile he showed her was an illusion. After kissing the sleeping children on the face she went into Cloud’s office. She brushed away the dust on the family photo they had taken and then tried calling him. After several rings the messaging service took over." ~CoT
This quote suggests that Cloud missing/ignoring Tifa’s calls suggests Cloud’s smile was an “illusion”.
Strangelove said:
Also, 'in fact' doesn't need a dash in it.
Are you sure? Can you please link me to your source?
Strangelove said:
We know he visited it once. When he found Denzel. Anything else is supposition.
You can believe whatever you like. You just have nothing to really support that.
SE believes that most things in the FFVII compilation can be interpreted differently. In-fact, they specifically designed the FFVII compilation so we could interpret things differently.
The fact that Marlene wonders where Cloud had been, and we know Cloud finds Denzel in-front of Aerith's Church, in addition to the fact that Cloud eventually starts living there, it seems logical to me that Cloud visited Aerith's Church often. Luckily, SE would welcome my personal interpretation that is solely based on Cloud's own actions (ie: Cloud finding Denzel in-front of Aerith's Church, Cloud eventually going to live at Aerith's Church, Marlene wondering where Cloud had been)
Nomura:
“AC is a piece of work made by Japanese people. In Hollywood movies, I think there is a tendency where the meaning of all the scenes have to be expressed clearly but, this isn’t something like that. With our work, the viewer is free to decide how they interpret or enjoy it. The staff has their own answers to all the scenes in the movie such as the angel statue that makes an appearance many times. But, even if someone who has watched it interprets it differently, then that is just another answer. I guess “comparing answers” with friends is one of the ways you can enjoy the movie. I think AC is a movie that makes those who have watched it, want to talk about it with others.” ~FFVII AC Prologue Book
Strangelove said:
I'm sorry, I was under the impression that everything to do with Aerith was romantic.
Thanks for saying you are sorry for making that assumption.
Strangelove said:
Except that the 'Denzel represents a connection to Aerith' thing is your opinion, based more on your preconceived view of the story rather that what information we're given. Whereas wanting to save someone is clearly there in the text.
But Cloud cites Aerith as the reason for bringing Denzel back to Seventh Heaven. Therefore, Cloud's relationship/connection with Aerith is the cause of bringing Denzel to Seventh Heaven, which is what then causes Cloud to become happy with his family situation. If it had not been for Cloud's belief that Aerith brought Denzel to him, Denzel would have never entered Cloud's life, and he would have never become happy. Aerith, Denzel, Cloud, and his happiness are all interconnected. It isn't an either/or situation.
Strangelove said:
When you use them in misleading ways, yeah.
They didn't have 'constant' problems throughout OTWTAS because there were periods when they weren't having problems (beginning of Episode Tifa, and after Denzel arrived).
Although Cloud and Tifa have good moments, the consistent issue that CONSTANTLY crops back up between them is their communication problems. I have not used the word incorrectly considering Cloud and Tifa have had communication problems from the very start of FFVII.
Strangelove said:
Because he wanted to save a sick child he found in front of a place associated with someone whose death he blames himself for. Not because he wanted to feel closer to Aerith.
Huh? Why did Cloud decide to go Aerith's Church in the first place if not to feel closer to Aerith?
Strangelove said:
You were the one who brought up where Cloud sleeps first, I don't know why you're trying to pin that on me now.
The first mention of sleeping arrangements came from you:
http://thelifestream.net/forums/showpost.php?p=565034&postcount=507
I don't think it matters where I think Cloud slept, because it would be guesswork with nothing to back it up.
Right. I first brought it up. But you engaged in a debate about it.
And yes. I'm wondering where you think Cloud slept when Marlene always slept with Tifa. Wouldn't the bed found in Cloud's room be the most logical place for Cloud to sleep while Marlene slept with Tifa?
Strangelove said:
I just think the 'this physical place is literally Cloud's own Promised Land' doesn't take into account what the rest of the text says. But then, that's just my opinion
Cloud, "wasn't alone anymore" once he reunited with Aerith and Zack in Aerith's Church. Seems to me his Promised Land would be the PLACE he was able to finally not feel alone anymore (ie: Aerith's Church -- ie: the place he is finally able to see Aerith and Zack -- ie: the two people missing from his life)
