The Love Triangle Debate: Another Turn in the Cycle

[Makoeyes987]

I'm unsure how one would not see Cloud and Zack's friendship as close to akin to brotherhood as possible, given the massive implications that were shown in FFVII (I'm not even including the Compilation in this, I'm just referring the OG).

It can be called 'best friend,' 'close comrade,' or any other term you'd like. But whatever term you wish to describe it, in Cloud's history post-Nibelheim, the closet friend he's ever shown to have is Zack. And Zack himself was shown to have a fondness for Cloud that of course, results in him willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for Cloud. This is shown in the lead up to Nibelheim, so clearly there was some form of close friendship that existed between the two.

Cloud looked up to Zack as the ideal SOLDIER hero he aspired to be. Yes, Cloud originally idolized and became interested in SOLDIER as a kid thanks to Sephiroth, but once he joined Shinra, it was Zack that Cloud looked up to and was friends with. Cloud is the one who cheers Zack to not miss his chance to become a hero during the Nibelheim incident once they head off to the Mako Reactor. Which implies Cloud being aware of Zack's dream of being a hero, in the first place.

And there's another reason why Zack was the one Cloud mimiced with Jenova cells after suffering Mako Poisoning.

He (Jenova) first approached as a friend, deceived them and finally...

Jenova's mimicry is used to copy friends, loved ones, etc in order to approach and blend in to a population. The fact Cloud ended up mimicing Zack is no accident, given the close relationship he had with him. The Jenova in Cloud read who Zack was to Cloud and immediately chose that as a target for mimicry and incorporated his personality into his consciousness.

Throughout the Nibelheim flashback (the false one told by Cloud in Kalm) if you notice what's said by the masked trooper that represents the real Cloud in the event, he displays a closeness to "Cloud" in regards to talking to him about his feelings on what its like being in SOLDIER, his insecurities about being in SOLDIER, and even doing the 'thing' they do, which is.. Practice their cool poses. The trooper opens up that maybe he doesn't want to be in SOLDIER after all, with "Cloud" (i.e. Zack) telling him to stick with it, and he'll be around to talk to him in awhile during the mission so he's not lonely. The trooper even confides in "Cloud/Zack" how nervous he is about the operation and afraid of monsters showing up. Only by looking through the flashback event again with the knowledge of who's really whom, does one actually see a bigger picture of who Cloud is in relation to Zack. The Trooper who represents the real Cloud in the flashback has close lines with Zack that point to a comfortable relationship between the two, with Cloud feeling open enough to share his insecurities and fears regarding the mission, and Zack encouraging him and listening to him without judgment. That's not the behavior of an acquaintance or someone you just knew by happenstance. Especially for Cloud who does not open up to others easily, at all.

If that's not the perfect best friend, especially given the fact Zack goes out of his way to ensure Cloud's safety to the point of his own death, I'm not sure what else could be done except giving them matching friendship bracelets.

 

[Lex]

Plus you have to wonder what level of communication they had while they were floating next to each other in tubes for what, 4-5 years?

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

It just doesn't work for me, sorry. I never said they weren't friends. But for me "best friendship" is a relationship of equals. Zack and Cloud for me have much more of an older brother/younger brother vibe going on, maybe even a little bit of mentorship.

 

[Makoeyes987]

It just doesn't work for me, sorry. I never said they weren't friends. But for me "best friendship" is a relationship of equals. Zack and Cloud for me have much more of an older brother/younger brother vibe going on, maybe even a little bit of mentorship.

They're equal in the sense they're both young boys from the boonies trying to make it big in a massive metropolitan city-state working for a corporation as soldiers. Just because their ranks may be different doesn't mean they're not "equal." The fact Cloud has that must trust in Zack to confide his fear of fighting and hesitation in joining SOLDIER, and Zack doesn't chide or judge him for it at all, speaks to a relationship of equals right there. There's no way a soldier would ever open up and say something that vulnerable and honest to an acquaintance that could easily chew them out or report them for such thoughts, let alone if that soldier is Cloud Strife.

And older and younger brothers can be best friends too. That vibe exists between them as well and isn't mutually exclusive to being "best friends."

Zack and Cloud's friendship is purposefully hidden under layers and layers of fragmented memories and falsehoods that are the result of Cloud's fractured consciousness. Their closeness is only revealed once you realize who Cloud really is and why.

 

[Clement Rage]

It's really difficult to tell, because most of our perspectives are fragmented and unreliable.

If I was going to give Noctis a best friend I'd probably call it Gladio, if a bit blurred by the 'assigned bodyguard' part.

 

[Makoeyes987]

But that's the entire point of FFVII though. The narrative of "Cloud" is mysterious by design and layered in between his Jenova/Mako Poisoning persona, his insecurities and then the truth. It's meant to make you have to look deeper instead of laying it out for you neatly.

Zack's role in the story is enigmatic yet powerful. He goes from being a mysterious doppelganger, the perceived "real" Cloud, and then a mysterious SOLDIER who seemingly just abruptly died for Cloud. And in the end, it's revealed he was Cloud's closest friend who he confided in and was encouraged by.

Like, I don't see how there's a really question to the depth of that friendship. Maybe because it's only examined through the lens of the Nibelheim Incident and we don't get to see what else culminated before it, but you don't just confide and talk to someone like that who's just a well-meaning acquaintance. Cloud had to feel comfortable and familiar with the dude. And Zack just isn't gonna be that nice and encouraging to just any old grunt. For one Cloud isn't a girl

Hell, Zack certainly wasn't that nice to the other grunt who got abruptly killed during the mission. Hell, he wasn't even that nice to Sephiroth and he knew him. Granted that's because Sephiroth is taciturn already, but still. The developers obviously played up the friendship between the two subtly but intentionally.

 

[fancy]

Plus you have to wonder what level of communication they had while they were floating next to each other in tubes for what, 4-5 years?

I personally imagined very little. Not much in the right mind anyway, especially in Cloud's case.

Anyway, different strokes for different folks, eh? I accept that it's canon *shrug* but I personally find that canon to be lacking and it'll remain one of those things that I begrudgingly accept as true in my head even as my heart protests it. Kinda like Denzel's existence.

I reckon if I ever write a fanfic about their relationship in the way that I see it, I'll have to deem it an AU lol (wink, nudge).

 

[a_apple]

People for some reason don't seem to give a damn about which girl was Clouds favorite but how deep his bromance with Zack actually went. This is a blessed thread.

 

[fancy]

lmao we're a blessed people

 

[Roger]

I personally imagined very little. Not much in the right mind anyway, especially in Cloud's case.

Why tho?

Cloud initiates contact with Zack about escaping, who then replies with the suggestion of doing at feeding time when their pods get opened up. Surely this means they were both at the very very least conscious at the last feeding time to know that that's a thing, and potentially the hundreds of feeding times they've had before that.

 

[Dashell]

Man people are already getting worked up about this. I've seem tumblr posts about how it's going to rain Cloti tears, and "I can't wait for the Clerith meltdowns"... and some calling others retards and... ugh

if people are getting THIS worked up now, i'm scared for when the game comes out.

 

[a_apple]

Man people are already getting worked up about this. I've seem tumblr posts about how it's going to rain Cloti tears, and "I can't wait for the Clerith meltdowns"... and some calling others retards and... ugh

if people are getting THIS worked up now, i'm scared for when the game comes out.

It's always the same weirdos, who get worked up over this stuff. The most people are just happy for finally seeing the ff7 crew again :p

 

[Dashell]

But they're so loud

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Well, it's not that hard to avoid, I guess.

 

[Strangelove]

Plus you have to wonder what level of communication they had while they were floating next to each other in tubes for what, 4-5 years?

they scratched messages into the glass!

there is an image from the game, or possibly the ffvii international bonus disc (where you can see stuff like the full text of zack's letter to his parents), which shows a message from zack to cloud saying that they will 'escape at feeding time' or something

there's only one known message as far as i'm aware, but i'm now imagining a whole bunch of banal chatting through glass

 

[fancy]

Why tho?

Cloud initiates contact with Zack about escaping, who then replies with the suggestion of doing at feeding time when their pods get opened up. Surely this means they were both at the very very least conscious at the last feeding time to know that that's a thing, and potentially the hundreds of feeding times they've had before that.

eye-dee-kay, d00d. I suppose I'm thinking, ''They have been confined and worked on for five years.'' which is a long time, indeed, to be kept captive. Why haven't they been able to escape before? Surely they would've tried if they'd been relatively conscious and able to communicate? Surely that would've taken precedence over, say, chitter-chatter over the weather or how badly Hojo's shoes clash with his overalls on any given day?

So I speculate that the reason why they didn't escape is that they were unable to. Why? I assume that their being heavily monitored would be a factor as it seems a very natural step (to me anyway) that Hojo would take such precautions when confining two men of impossible strength who have every incentive to kill him. Like, surely, he wouldn't want to give them too many opportunities to be able to communicate any sort of plans to each other? Surely any of the assistants that Hojo (might've?) kept around or the man himself must've noticed some alterations to their environment, like messages being scratched on those very permanent (thus unable to erase lmao) glass pods?

Maybe he was cocky and didn't give a shit––that doesn't sound totally out of character for Hojo. I suppose he had reason to feel complacent at some point considering that he managed to keep them confined for all that time, that self-satisfaction giving way to laziness, the laziness presenting opportunities for Zack and Cloud to properly plan an escape because those silly smug billies overlooked something––like plans being scratched onto glass lmao.

Having said this, this is all absolutely conjecture on my part and I realise that—as far as I know (and I'm far from being a specialist on the compilation of ffvii whoopsie doo) we haven't anything detailing the exact going-ons in that basement, do we? If so, LMAO I JUST MADE A TOTAL ASS OF MYSELF WHOOPS, but if not... that leaves me with my imagination and that's what I imagined. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Hope you get where I'm coming from! ʕ•ᴥ•ʔ

 

[Roger]

I imagine supervision grew increasingly lax over the years while Zack and Cloud slowly got their strength back but I still imagine them not outright gagged for the past five years till the final days/hours of their imprisonment.

 

[Clement Rage]

Headcanon: Scratching messages into glass is going to be difficult and painful. I expect Cloud was semi conscious a lot of the time, and happened to be coherent enough to slowly painfully scratch out that message one day when they happened to have an opportunity.

Going by CC, Lazard helped by making Zack punch out the tank as part of a dream.

 

[Strangelove]

were there materials you can find in one of the game that were notes from the staff supervising cloud and zack? i feel like there was something saying that he was basically left on his own to tend to them after some time, but i can't give a clear reference for it and i'm starting to wonder if my mind has just made that up

 

[Roger]

were there materials you can find in one of the game that were notes from the staff supervising cloud and zack? i feel like there was something saying that he was basically left on his own to tend to them after some time, but i can't give a clear reference for it and i'm starting to wonder if my mind has just made that up

That indeed exists. I don't remember clearly which are from Crisis Core and which are from FFVII tho.

 

[LicoriceAllsorts]

Ok I'm taking this from the wiki:

FFVII

Left specimen tank:
C project
specimen(B) code C
"A scratch left by a fingernail inside
the beaker... 'Let's get out of here…'."

Right specimen tank:
C project
specimen(A) code Z
"A scratch left by a fingernail inside
the beaker... 'Feeding Time'...that's our chance...!"

"Escapee Report no. 1
X Month X Day
Two escapees were located
near Midgar."

"Escapee Report no. 2
Description at the time of capture.
A Former member of SOLDIER/Number( )
No effect could be detected from
either Mako Radiation Therapy
or Jenova on him.
B Regular/Number ( )
Reaction to Jenova detected."

"Escapee Report no. 3
Status.
A Shot for resisting.
B Escaped during A's resistance."

Escapee Report no. 4
Other
B's whereabouts is currently unknown.
But pursuit is unnecessary due to
his diminishing consciousness.
Awaiting further instructions."

IIRC the scientist's notes in CC record how he's been left to run the project and is really excited about it, and then gradually realises Shinra (Hojo) has lost interest in it - because he decided Cloud was a 'failure', presumably.

 

[Nandemoyasan]

What I want to know is how Cloud managed to scratch "how are we gonna get out of here?" on the tube, being in a near-comatose state from Mako poisoning.

 

[ForceStealer]

He may not have been IMMEDIATELY mako poisoned, and merely deteriorated to that state over the years.

 

[Ite]

Scratched in the glass... using what though? Wait, what thread is this? What's going on?

 

[Tetsujin]

Must've had the most hardcore of finger nails I guess.