The Love Triangle Debate thread of KNEEL BEFORE ZOD OR SUFFER HIS WRATH (ignore the opening posts at your peril) (Round 6)

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Lex

Administrator
What I meant with 'cheapening his character' is that people are cheapening his character by introducing the notion that he wasn't really lost or his personality didn't change, ergo implying that real!Cloud and fake!Cloud aren't very different in-order to introduce some actions of fake!Cloud into real!Cloud, when the whole purpose of Cloud's character is the opposite to that.

I'm sorry, you just can't do that. Real!Cloud does have knowledge of all his past memories and feelings because he interacted with them just as fake!Cloud did, remember he was in the back-seat watching everything, only did he respond the same way? Did he feel the same way? Would he have acted the same? Thats what's being discussed here.

Cloud says his very own personality is divided. He says one was an illusion of a pupppet created by multiple factors, there's just no way around that. Did puppet!Cloud feel romantic inclinations towards Aerith's? Yea, that's likely. Did real!Cloud? No, I don't think so, and that has yet to be evidentiated.

People are, with all due respect, seriously underplaying just how fucked-up Cloud's mind was, the real!Cloud was a completly different, self-aware personality.
I strongly agree with all of this.
 

Marle

Pro Adventurer
AKA
Ava, Spike Spiegel, Stella Nox Fleuret, Altair Ibn-La'Ahad, Princess Zelda, Alice, Raven Roth, Faye Valentine, Tifa Lockhart, Khal Drogo
What I meant with 'cheapening his character' is that people are cheapening his character by introducing the notion that he wasn't really lost or his personality didn't change, ergo implying that real!Cloud and fake!Cloud aren't very different in-order to introduce some actions of fake!Cloud into real!Cloud, when the whole purpose of Cloud's character is the opposite to that.

I'm sorry, you just can't do that. Real!Cloud does have knowledge of all his past memories and feelings because he interacted with them just as fake!Cloud did, remember he was in the back-seat watching everything, only did he respond the same way? Did he feel the same way? Would he have acted the same? Thats what's being discussed here.

Cloud says his very own personality is divided. He says one was an illusion of a pupppet created by multiple factors, there's just no way around that. Did puppet!Cloud feel romantic inclinations towards Aerith's? Yea, that's likely. Did real!Cloud? No, I don't think so, and that has yet to be evidentiated.

People are, with all due respect, seriously underplaying just how fucked-up Cloud's mind was, the real!Cloud was a completly different, self-aware personality.
And by people you mean me just because I disagree with you on the point that Cloud did gleam some sort of feelings for Aerith. I don't know, but I'm starting to get a little insulted by this.

For the millionth time, no one is saying he wasn't screwed up. I really don't know where these people who are saying this are in this forum. All that I'm saying is that, regardless of how fucked up the kid was, he still formed some sort of attachment to Aerith that is shown throughout the entire compilation and if you believe Cloud cared even a little about the girl, then you know that this fake!Cloud and real!Cloud business doesn't matter.

He still somehow formed a relationship and connection with her, regardless of how muddled his brain was. If he wasn't present whatsoever, Aerith would be: hey that girl i knew that got stabbed when i was screwed up.

But she's more than that. Whether you feel Cloud was romantically involved or not, he still had a bond with her and to form a bond of any kind, it sort of requires a person to be a little present.

Basically, it's so much more complicated than just dicing it up into real!Cloud and fake!Cloud or puppet!Cloud. It is not that clear cut.

Agreed with Aki about this 'what if' business being as pointless as discussing 'what if' Aerith lived. It's all interesting and whatnot but has no bearing.
 
First point, how did we get back to Cloud's mental state on Disk 1? Not that I mind given that I liked that part of the discussion, but I'm confused about the sudden shift.

Second point, yeah, I agree that Cloud wasn't just confused. He wasn't fake either (Hence why I use the word "composite" because he was a mix of different influences), but he wasn't the real Cloud. Real!Cloud was the voice in Composite!Cloud's head. The one who appears to be able to think and to a lesser extent act separately (Trying to stop his counterpart from giving the Black Materia to Sephiroth- Two Clouds are on the screen, I assume to represent his two personalities.) The one capable of having and keeping information that Composite!Cloud is unaware of throughout the disk. The one capable of conversing with Composite!Cloud in the comfort of his own head.

Now is there Real!Cloud in Composite!Cloud? Yeah. When the two personalities merge does Composite!Cloud to some extent become a part of Real!Cloud? I can't imagine not. Is Real!Cloud present and aware on Disk 1? Yep, but not in control.

Not only does the script seem to show that these are two distinct entities, there are at least two official quotes that state that Cloud formed a whole different personality that were posted just a couple of pages ago.

Cloud, having suffered heavy injuries during the incident, was injected with cells from Jenova, an extraterrestrial life form. These cells, which Sephiroth also had in his body, controlled Cloud’s thoughts and created a separate personality, and tried to manipulate Cloud into joining with Sephiroth.
Cloud mimics his best friend Zack and creates a new persona, but the mental aspects weren’t the only things he received from Zack.
On the issue of imitating Zack, he does to an extent. That's why Aerith is drawn to him at first. I'm pretty sure that's officially stated. Is it a perfect imitation? No, because that isn't the only influence on him, but he does still mimic Zack and take his memories. I'm not sure why this is an issue honestly. :(

Of course I don't mind. XD



No, I didn't mean it that way. Maybe I should have worded it better? It just seems to me like he accepted the date because he never told her no. He went along with being her body guard, and never said anything against the date when she brought it up again. If you'll recall Aerith says "The agreement was one date, right?" and then Tifa goes "Excuse ME?"
Cloud never says anything in response one way or another, but I gathered that the fact he was being her body guard without protest kinda meant he didn't mind the 'date as payment' thing. Idk, that's just how I see it. I'd think if someone asks you on a date and you weren't interested, you would show some disinterest. Some can argue that the disinterest appears to be that he is more into Tifa. :monster: Him accepting her offer for a date doesn't really change anything in my opinion so either way, I still believe that Cloud loves tifa, lol.

I see where you're coming from though. Of course Cloud always has the option, but I did not see him refusing her. So yeah. xD To me him saying "I'm your body guard, right?" when he knows what Aerith thinks about the matter basically tells me he knows what's going down with the whole date thing.
That makes more sense. Thank you. :) I was a bit confused by the statement.

I'd still point out that the only one to ever reference the date is Aerith, while Cloud's concern seems to be more focused on protecting. He never brings up the promise, only that he was he bodyguard at points and again Cloud is not exactly shy about demanding what he sees as his due by this point. If he's wants the date, why not mention it? Why didn't he make plans to come back for it before he tried to leave her at her home?

On the other hand, your interpretation is your own and it's silly for me to argue it, so I won't any further than that. There we go. :)

also i am the only one that believes Aerith still loves Zack, mind you. *is hit with rocks* shut up tiff no one believes that
I believe that as well. It just doesn't really affect this discussion one way or another. Just as it's perfectly plausible that Cloud loves both Tifa and Aerith, it's perfectly plausible for Aerith to love both Zack and Cloud.


I call bullshit on "lol Cloud's a social retard". I think Cloud genuinely was showing he cared for Aerith - caught himself, and then changed it to "we". maybe I'm the only one who thinks that lol
This is going to sound snippy. I apologize and this isn't aimed at you, Sora. It's just an example of something that's happened a few times now and it's upsetting me (Not the debate itself as I don't feel much emotional attachment over which pairings are canon. Again I ship what I ship and I don't much care about the canon status of the pairing.).

Can I please ask that people stop oversimplifying my responses? You aren't required on any level to agree with anything that I write (I'm used to that), but at least show me the respect of actually replying to my responses as I said them or at least paraphrase what I said properly. Please. For example, I seriously did not say this and it upsets me to see my arguments grossly oversimplified.

Please. I'm really sorry for being snippy. :(

Edit: I assume this was a reference to my argument anyway given that I'm pretty sure that I was the only one arguing the whole social skills aspect of it. If I'm wrong then I apologize.

Can we stop with this fake!Cloud real!Cloud shizz? Cloud is Cloud. Even if his mind was torn into pieces, it doesn't make him fake. He's still himself, he's just confused.
(^basically what ava said xD)
Answered this above. :)
 
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Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
No. The fact that real Cloud is an entirely seperate conciousness actively talking to him in his head, trying to prod him on to talk to Tifa about what happened at Nibelheim, is why he's most certainly a fake.
This
Saying it was always Cloud IS entirely detracting from the plot. Aerith wanted to met the real!Cloud but thanks to her dying she never ever did, that was the point.
And this.

Its not that real Cloud doesn't exist on disc 1, its just that his power (for want of a better word) is very limited, usually cropping up whenever Cloud is knocked unconcious/asleep. RealCloud is buried under fakeCloud.

Aeris can sense this (as can Tifa) during the date, she asks to meet the real Cloud because she knows the Cloud sat in front of her isn't him.

I don't think it means that realCloud is unaware of what is going on, just that he's powerless to do anything.

It's a bit like what happens to John Cusacks character in the end of Being John Malkovich :monster:
 

Wolfmania

Saint of Killers
cloud wasn't exactly lost, per se? he was there, and he did try to get himself to interact with tifa in a way that would allow him to finally remember who he was. so somewhere inside of himself he knew that something was wrong and that tifa could fix it.
What I meant, is that real!Cloud was completely buried behind fake!Cloud in a manner that he couldn't control his own actions, hence why his personality was divided.

He was still self-aware and even tried to help fake!Cloud, but he was still buried in the back-seat, hence why fake!Cloud's actions, feelings and movements can't be attributed to real!Cloud.

i'm sorry, but this... well, it seems similar to 'well what if aerith had been alive during the highwind scene? would it have ended the same way?' we just don't know. we can assume, yes, things would have been at least a little different, but we can't honestly predict what could have been. it's a what-if situation.
You do realize this is my entire point? Because they are two different personalities, you cannot, and should not, say they'd feel, react and act the same way as each other, it's simply not analogus. Heck, that's what's been said for several pages past.

So I do not see the problem you had with such an exerpt.

EVIDENTIATED IS NOT A FUCKING WORD PLEASE STOP USING IT
Sorry, I had no idea. English is not my first language by any means.

I looked It up, and I guess you could substitute the word for 'evidenced'. Correct me if I'm wrong.

okay im sorry that was rude of me. but going back to things i have said prior: we can't really say 'oh yes, he did feel romantic feelings for aerith' or 'oh, no he didn't' becuase someone, somewhere will feel that a line he said here or there can be interpreted more broadly (such as the "i will take it on from here" then tifa saying, "no, WE will take it on from here", or the "i remember aerith" when bugenhagen asks if they remembered what they were searching for.) can these be seen with a romantic twinge? yes. can they be seen without it? yes, that's true as well.
Indeed. Which is why I'm questioning people who say real!Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith, since all those alledged ones that can be seen are interactions with fake!Cloud.


but does it really matter? if he felt something deep for aerith, it didn't stop him from getting with tifa in the end. even if he did have romantic feelings for her, he's happy with tifa.
I've already said this once, but I'll say It again.

Real!Cloud's canon standing with Aerith has nothing to do with bolstering Cloti.

It's only a canon point being discussed in tangent, and shouldn't be used to bolster Cloti, and vice-versa.

Khal Drogo said:
And by people you mean me just because I disagree with you on the point that Cloud did gleam some sort of feelings for Aerith.
Not really. I was even debating this a few pages back, as were other people.

And of course Cloud had feelings for Aerith. Just not romantic ones, as far as we can see.

Khal Drogo said:
no one is saying he wasn't screwed up. I really don't know where these people who are saying this are in this forum. All that I'm saying is that, regardless of how fucked up the kid was, he still formed some sort of attachment to Aerith that is shown throughout the entire compilation
I have always thought he did. I have even stated Aerith is as precious to him as Zack. I was disputing your statement of there being any romantic feelings between them.

Khal Drogo said:
and if you believe Cloud cared even a little about the girl, then you know that this fake!Cloud and real!Cloud business doesn't matter.
Oh, yes It matters. The It will always matter, and here's why:

Real!Cloud was a self-aware part of fake!Cloud's being, and had the same intereactions fake!clodu had. The scenario? cloud's personality is split into two, with fake!Cloud being the dominant one until it is expunged.

The difference? Real!Cloud would not have acted, felt or reacted the same was as fake!Cloud to those interactions. Go back to my post about persona 1 and persona 2 which evidentiates the clear dynamic between them.

Hence, you cannot use any instance of fake!Cloud's actions and interactions with Aerith to validate real!Cloud's romantic feelings or lack there of in relation ot Aeris.

Khal Drogo said:
He still somehow formed a relationship and connection with her, regardless of how muddled his brain was. If he wasn't present whatsoever, Aerith would be: hey that girl i knew that got stabbed when i was screwed up.
Yea, he was there, he was completely self-aware, he even tried to warn fake!Cloud of the Mako Reactor.

He is still a diametrically opposed persona to fake!cloud, having a different fighting style, moving differently, talking differently, clothing differently, and acting differently.

Which is why when people say real!cloud has romantic feelings for Aerith, that stuff needs to be validated with real!Cloud's intereactions and feelings, not fake!Cloud's.

Khal Drogo said:
But she's more than that. Whether you feel Cloud was romantically involved or not, he still had a bond with her and to form a bond of any kind, it sort of requires a person to be a little present.
Again, no one is denying that. We all stated posts back how real!Cloud is completly self-aware and not a part of fake!Cloud. Which is why his personality is divided, not jumbled.

Khal Drogo said:
Basically, it's so much more complicated than just dicing it up into real!Cloud and fake!Cloud or puppet!Cloud. It is not that clear cut.
Sorry but the canon disagrees with this kind of juxtaposition of the different pesonalities.

They are split, not mixed like a chemical substance. Real!Cloud is shown as a completely separate persona that talks to fake!Cloud, hence he is able to feel, act and react differently to everything fake!Cloud does and everyone he meets, including Aerith.

Which is why after the LS sequence, when cloud regains his true/real/whatever self, he dosen't act like Zack, he has a completly different fightingn style, etc...since all the influences that created his separate persona have been expunged, real!Cloud is now in the driver's seat, living life without pretending like a boss.

So, where are true Cloud's romantic feelings for Aerith, in that light?
 
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Fairheartstrife

[no fucks given]
AKA
FHS, that cloti bitch
fake!Cloud = red
real!Cloud = yellow

Pieced together LS Cloud= Orange

Separate entities or not, when Humpty Dumpty is pieced together again the experiences of fake!Cloud will blend with real!Cloud.

There's a lot of commenting on something that really does seem very simple.

But hey, what do I know. Carry on...
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
Yes, realCloud still has the memories of fakeCloud without a doubt.

The point I think that is trying to be made here is that realCloud didn't have much (if any) actual control during disk1. RealCloud has to fight to be heard, and I think if for a minute realCloud had full control, the story would have been very different, realCloud would have done something to avert disaster. FakeCloud is too easily influenced by Sephiroth/Jenova.

This is just speculation, but I think the only moment where realCloud gets physical control on disc 1 is the part where he's about to kill Aerith, and realCloud intervenes.

I have a headache now :lol:
 

Wolfmania

Saint of Killers
Oh, yea. He definitely has the puppet memories, even if he was watching everything as well.

But the main focus of this debate is that after the LS, Cloud regains his real self. This means that the one in the wheel isn't a fake persona of a puppet anymore, but the real deal that was given a chance to shine after Tifa cured his mako riddled/broken mind.

Living his life without pretending...is breaking away from the persona that wasn't his, the one which was a puppet to Sephiroth's will. That's what he's all about.

Which is why after the LS, there are no more decisions, it's Cloud motherfucking Strife that threw Sephiroth into a reactor and watched Zack die.
The only issue being discussed here is, this Cloud, the one that takes the wheel after the fake!Cloud persona is no more, has not shown the romantic attachment to Aerith his previous, fake personality had.

If this does seem harsh to Clerith, It's because unfortunately it is.

But hey, real!Cloud seems to love Aerith as much as he loves Zack, so that's pretty endearing. even if It's not romantic.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Quick pop in to ask, if the term Fake!Cloud is so problematic, would Illusory!Cloud be better? Because that's the term Cloud uses to describe what he was in Disc 1, an Illusion of himself. An Illusion he was trapped in.

Cloud himself says he wasn't 'real' at that point. Which, again, is not saying he was wholly unreal, but he was Illusory.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
Indeed. Which is why I'm questioning people who say real!Cloud had romantic feelings for Aerith, since all those alledged ones that can be seen are interactions with fake!Cloud.
the two i included (wherein he says that he will take over where aerith left off personally, especially) was after the lifestream sequence, and did imply a little bit of if not seen as romance, definitely a personal relationship between him and aerith
 
This is just speculation, but I think the only moment where realCloud gets physical control on disc 1 is the part where he's about to kill Aerith, and realCloud intervenes.

I have a headache now :lol:
This... is a really interesting thought. It's not really LTD related, but I wanted to comment on it because I hadn't thought of this before now. I apologize for the tangent.

We do know that Real!Cloud can to a minimal extent intervene when Composite!Cloud is under Sephiroth's control (Black Materia scene) and I think that is the first time that Composite!Cloud manages to force away Sephiroth's control, so perhaps the reason for that is that Real!Cloud managed to intervene? Is that possible? The only catch that I can really see is that the game usually indicates when Real!Cloud is active and I don't recall that being indicated in this scene unless I'm remembering incorrectly, which is always possible.

Still, this may require more thought. Thank you for mentioning it. :)
 
AKA
Noctis
Yes.

that was clearly established between the fake!Cloud and Aerith, yeah it was absorbed into the post-Lifestream!Cloud, as have his fake memories of being in SOLDIER, that doesn't make Fake!Cloud the real thing in the first place.
Saying it was always Cloud IS entirely detracting from the plot. Aerith wanted to met the real!Cloud but thanks to her dying she never ever did, that was the point.
I stand by what I said. Since Cloud created a new persona, Aerith wanted to meet what was really him. He was still there, but not entirely. If Cloud and Aerith's relationship is based on a FAKE and fake interactions, why does the 'real' Cloud care so much about her? Why should he care at all that she died, how did he form a connection at all if he's been fake all this time? Cloud obviously formed a bond with Aerith. If he's been fake and not there the entire time it would be completely impossible for him to do so.

So I'm going to stop using FakeCloud but I don't think I was unfair. So what's the proper term then? Confused Cloud? False Cloud? Disc 1 Cloud
You don't have to stop doing anything if you don't want to? I just call him Cloud. O_o;;

is that people are cheapening his character by introducing the notion that he wasn't really lost or his personality didn't change, ergo implying that real!Cloud and fake!Cloud aren't very different in-order to introduce some actions of fake!Cloud into real!Cloud, when the whole purpose of Cloud's character is the opposite to that.
Except... nobody did that. All we said is that real Cloud is still there and can feel things. If he couldn't, then his relationship with Aerith would mean nothing. Or at least itwouldn't be as strong as it is.
Anyway I agree with what Rishi said. And Ava. And Aki.

He never brings up the promise
I don't recall Cloud and Aerith's date thing being a promise? Anyway you have a fair point, but I'm sticking by my opinion. x3 Also I apologize if I said something wrong, didn't mean to. x-x

Also yeah Ryu, illusion would be the better word for it. In game quote:
Cloud
"I never was in SOLDIER."
"I made up the stories about what happened to me five years ago,
about being in SOLDIER."
"I left my village looking for glory, but never made it in to
SOLDIER......"
"I was so ashamed of being so weak; then I heard this story from
my friend Zack..."
"And I created an illusion of myself made up of what I had seen
in my life....."
"And I continued to play the charade as if it were true."
and this one too
As Cloud is trying to place the bomb, a mysterious voice speaks to him. Later, this same kind of mysterious voice resounds in Cloud's head in the scene where he and a voice have a conversation, and it offers him reminders. These voices are the original Cloud, as -- due to Hojo's Sephiroth Clones experiment -- Zack's personality merged with his, creating the present day Cloud, producing a conflict of multiple personalities
This is what I believe. Kind of like the red, yellow, orange way of saying it. Yes, Cloud was messed in the head. *NO* the real Cloud was not completely wiped away, and not incapable of feeling things for others.
 

Octo

KULT OF KERMITU
AKA
Octo, Octorawk, Clarky Cat, Kissmammal2000
This is what I believe. Kind of like the red, yellow, orange way of saying it. Yes, Cloud was messed in the head. *NO* the real Cloud was not completely wiped away, and not incapable of feeling things for others.
Yes, but was he capable of acting on those feelings?

I think its entirely possible that the realCloud had feelings for Aerith, liked her and wanted to protect her. But I think if realCloud had that degree of control over interactions he wouldn't have let things go the way they did.

I think it makes it all the more tragic, when Aerith asks to meet the realCloud and fakeCloud is oblivious, realCloud must have been screaming inside.
 

Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
Also yeah Ryu, illusion would be the better word for it. In game quote:
That was the very one I was referencing, yes.

This is what I believe. Kind of like the red, yellow, orange way of saying it. Yes, Cloud was messed in the head. *NO* the real Cloud was not completely wiped away, and not incapable of feeling things for others.
Now, I'm not reading the posts too thoroughly right now, but I don't think anyone's saying he was completely wiped away.

I, personally, have tried to stress that RealCloud is entirely aware of what IllusoryCloud was up to, but unable to influence IllusoryCloud, trapped as he is inside it.

RealCloud has no continuing influence over IllusoryCloud. What IllusoryCloud does and experiences will affect RealCloud, though not necessarily in the same manner as IllusoryCloud would be affected by the same stimulus.
 
I don't know that anyone is saying that Real!Cloud can't feel (Yes, I will keep making a distinction because I think the evidence suggests that there is one. Unless someone can show me something that indicates that there isn't one. Is there something? Please do show me if there is.). He's aware and shows evidence of thought all on his own. Why wouldn't he be able to feel?

I think the issue (It's my issue at least) is that, given that the two personalities are distinct and they don't behave in the same manner, would Real!Cloud have reacted and behaved as Composite!Cloud/Illusory!Cloud did (I'll call this persona whichever makes you all happier, but I'm still going to make the distinction. At this stage, it appears to be more complicated then that he's just Cloud.)? Did he necessarily feel as Composite!/Illusory!Cloud did? When the two personas merge, would there be a complete, clear transfer of Composite!/Illusory!Cloud's feelings (Which I still think is an unfair assumption to make given the complexity of the situation. Emotions are not a matter of copy and pasting. Given that Real!Cloud is aware, it's possible (even perhaps probable) that he's also developing his own feelings for the others and those would have to be factored into the situation as well. One persona's feelings do not define the other's without support.) and do we have evidence to support this?

By this point, I'm not sure if I'm being at all clear. :( I'm sorry.

Edit: It's not a matter of not being able to feel or form bonds. It really isn't.
 
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except i never said that

but okay
I think there's some confusion going on here so it might be better to try to work that out. If I'm butting in where I shouldn't then please just tell me to get lost. Thank you and I'm sorry.

Your previous argument made it sound as though you thought some people in the thread were suggesting that because it's being argued that Cloud has two personas at this time, the real Cloud isn't there or capable of feeling and while I can't speak for anyone but me, I haven't been seeing that argument for the most part.

Now, that's just what I pulled away from your last post. Was I incorrect in my reading? I am very sorry if I was. I didn't mean to misread your intent and I hope that I didn't offend you or anyone else. :scared:
 

Wolfmania

Saint of Killers
the two i included (wherein he says that he will take over where aerith left off personally, especially) was after the lifestream sequence, and did imply a little bit of if not seen as romance, definitely a personal relationship between him and aerith
I don't know how many times I have said that real!Cloud has Aerith held as dear to him as Zack. Anyway, the instances you are reffering to, are with all due respect, not romantic. It can be attributed to his likeness for Aerith and what she was doing, but nowhere does it spell our romance.

And if you want to see romance in those quotes, you'd have to take far too much liberty with the text. It would be akin to attributing Cloud's guilt and/or depression to romance with Aerith in AC when there are a multitute of other, more plausible factors.

For example, the quote you highlighted: 'I will take on what Aerith left off.'

Where exactly is the romantic implication? Don't you think it is much more plausible it's a throwback to this quote from Aerith:

'I'm the only one who can stop Sephiroth.'

Given that Aerith was now dead, the real!Cloud, who cares for her like he cares for Zack, promises to stop Sephiroth like Aerith was planning to. He will be the one to stop Sephiroth. His friends, however, make sure to tell him they'll be coming along as well. To help him, of course. Which he then goes to Bugenhagen to find out about Holy.

Don't you agree that is a much closer explanation? Why does the fact he personally felt compelled to continue Aerith's work spell out romance? Nowhere is that evidenced. And if you do see It that way, I can simply shrug and say you're obviously taking interpretations the text dosen't give you.

Of course that's just my opinion, but I believe that is what the canon shows, and I think the creator's do as well. We have to take things at face value, most of the time.

Sora said:
Except... nobody did that. All we said is that real Cloud is still there and can feel things. If he couldn't, then his relationship with Aerith would mean nothing. Or at least itwouldn't be as strong as it is

Honestly, I never said that. Heck I've seen no one say that. We even support the notion that Cloud is there and fully aware because the canon does. I've never, EVER said real!Cloud couldn't react and such to the experiences puppet!Cloud had. Heck, I even agreed with Ryu on that pages ago. I even wrote an entire paragraph expliciting how he could feel and react to such.

I'm going to agree with Minato here. You kinda got lost a bit in translation.

What we have been saying, this whole time, is since they are separate personalities, real!Cloud won't react/act the same way fake!Cloud would to the same feelings and situations.
 
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Ryushikaze

Deus Admiral Parsimonious, PHD, DDS, MD, JD, OBE
AKA
Tim, Ryu
except i never said that

but okay
Teef,

Except... nobody did that. All we said is that real Cloud is still there and can feel things. If he couldn't, then his relationship with Aerith would mean nothing. Or at least itwouldn't be as strong as it is.
Anyway I agree with what Rishi said. And Ava. And Aki.

-snip-

This is what I believe. Kind of like the red, yellow, orange way of saying it. Yes, Cloud was messed in the head. *NO* the real Cloud was not completely wiped away, and not incapable of feeling things for others.
These two segments imply that you see those who distinguish between RealCloud and Fake/Illusory/Monkey Cloud as saying those things.
 

Wolfmania

Saint of Killers
Especially since people can't disagree with that assertion given real!Cloud was aware and giving tips to his fake persona.

All I was saying all along was that since the personality is divided, one side would act, react and feel differently from the other due to both being diametrically opposite.

That's what I was saying all along, just to clarify. And I believe that's what others were saying as well.
 

Alessa Gillespie

a letter to my future self
AKA
Sansa Stark, Sweet Bro, Feferi, tentacleTherapist, Nin, Aki, Catwoman, Shinjiro Aragaki, Terezi, Princess Bubblegum
For example, the quote you highlighted: 'I will take on what Aerith left off.'

Where exactly is the romantic implication? Don't you think it is much more plausible it's a throwback to this quote from Aerith:

'I'm the only one who can stop Sephiroth.'
actual quote: Cloud: You left us without saying a word...... It was all so sudden, so I couldn't think... That's why it took so long for me to find out. But, Aeris... I understand now. Aeris... I'll do the rest.

if tifa is in the party she will remark that they will do the rest not just him, but he does especially separate himself from the party regarding aerith, which can be seen as romantic
 
actual quote: Cloud: You left us without saying a word...... It was all so sudden, so I couldn't think... That's why it took so long for me to find out. But, Aeris... I understand now. Aeris... I'll do the rest.

if tifa is in the party she will remark that they will do the rest not just him, but he does especially separate himself from the party regarding aerith, which can be seen as romantic
"Can be," but not "is." I don't think anyone is disputing your right to read it or any other scene that you wish as romantic, just the assumption that it is by default.

I could be wrong though. Seriously, ship what you want. This discussion is not intended to dispute your pairing preferences, just to discuss the finer points of canon. :)
 
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Wolfmania

Saint of Killers
Yea, my quote was a gross summary.

So, ok. I have multiple problems with that.

And Cloud was right by the way. Aerith suddenly left, he didn't understand why. That reason was that Aerith needed to activate Holy. That's why she left, and that's what Cloud understands.

And now I ask, how, for the love of Holy, does the fact he understands what Aerith was fightning for, and vows to her he will finish saving the world, count as romantic?

The fact he excludes himself? I'm sorry, you'd have to grossly pull more than the text implies to get that. Grossly.

* Don't you think that It is much more probable It is a throwback to the quote I posted back? That before Aerith was the only one who could stop Cloud due to the knowledge of Holy, and now that Cloud know, he'll be the one to stop Sephiroth? Why do you think the fact he says in a moment of self-ponderance that he will finish her work for her, and then is reminded that he is not alone in that mission is a romantic implication? He had a better understanding of Aerith than anyone there, and what Holy was AND he was the only one who ultimately could stop Sephiroth now, since he is the only one there who could challenge Sephiroth's will.

* Or even more, don't you think he feels a little entitled to that, given that the fact she couldn't complete her mission is because Cloud sat there like a moron, powerless while she was stabbed? That seems to be a much more plausible driving force than 'Yea, I like her romantically so I will finish her wishes', don't you think? He feels he's guilty for her dying, one way to lower that guilty is finishing what she started.

or even:

* It's my job to do this, as I don't want anymore more to suffer for this cause. - Team buts in: You're not Aerith's only friend, ya know. And you're not the only one who wants to save the world, and like HELL we're gonna let you do that alone! You know, exactly what Aerith wanted, she wanted to do that alone. Cloud would want to finish that, so he thought alone as well. His team said 'fuck you', basically.

Don't those three reasons seem more plausible?

I apologise for being snarky but I just can't wrap my head around this. I mean, of any quote that you could give, I would never have thought anyone would use this to support the fact cloud romantically wants Aerith, It's just too much licensing with the text and It's not even outright written.

But, alright. That's your interpretation, nothing I can do about It, so let's just agreee to disagree.

Edit: Apologies for the edits, but I'm rushing here, I have to leave.
 
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